Paul wrote the following letter to Julie Davis (Happy Catholic):
We recently were in touch with a Mary Ann Collins about her web site, which led us to your blog.
We noticed some of the anomalies you mentioned in your article. Regardless of who this person is, or persons are, the signals given are quite mixed, not pure at all, though many things printed on “her” site are true.
The Truth is 100% pure. The Truth does not waffle or sit on the fence. The Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Truth, ever spoke clearly to the issues at hand. For this reason men sought to kill Him, and did, because He did not seek their favor or approval, but spoke the Truth that condemned them in their ways they would not relinquish. (Notice, He did not seek to kill those who disagreed with Him, as the Catholic Church and her “wayward children,” like John Calvin, have always done, when they have been able to get away with it. Read The Persecutors and the Persecuted.)
The Truth cannot be changed, and, for this reason, never compromises. It stands eternal, unassailable, and all that come against it fall, sooner or later, though they may seem to prevail for a time in this world. Truly, those that do violence against the Truth have only set themselves on an inevitable course leading to loss and destruction. (Read Love, Hate; And Where Is “John Paul II”?)
It never ceases to amaze me how those practitioners and proponents of man-made religious systems can say things such as you do in your article, implying that “exposés claiming that Catholic teachings are not scripturally based” are self-evidently ridiculous and easily dismissed.
Victor Hafichuk had a Catholic approach him with the conversion story of Scott Hahn, with whom you are familiar. Victor said to him, “Fine, we will read and consider his account, and then get back to you.” The fellow replied, “Good, I look forward to visiting with you about it.”
We red Scott’s account and heard him say that none of his Protestant religious peers or associates could answer the claims of authentic doctrine and authority of Christ given by spokespersons for the Catholic Church. In the Lord Jesus Christ, by His grace, we had answers to every single objection or proposition given by the Catholic apologists, replete with Scriptural proofs and evidence. We shared these answers (A Protestant Minister Converts to Catholicism) with the man who approached us, with Scott Hahn, with Scott’s assistant, and with the whole world on our site for the last few years. We never heard back from the man who gave it to us, or from Scott and his staff, or from anyone else. Not one word.
Let me ask you, Julie, if the organization you love is so unassailably right, how is it that two nobodies can answer it and not one of the billion Catholics on earth can answer them? Is might right? Is that your motto, and you’re going to stick to it, Truth be damned? Have you not heard the words of the Lord Jesus, “that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God” (Luke 16:15 MKJV)?
Furthermore, soon afterwards we sent out a God-given description of what constitutes an ungodly work of men (The True Marks of a Cult). The Catholic Church is by no means alone in this category. There are many names of blasphemy. We sent this writing to several thousand people and posted it on our site. Not one presumed Christian of any kind has contested even one of the twenty-seven major marks of a cult laid out here, all Scripturally backed.
If your beloved Catholic Church is so obviously Scripturally sound and based on truth, perhaps you will be the first? Or will you consider that if no one can defend his or her works and ways, then all must be based on lies, the domain of the arch liar and thief, Satan? Have you also not heard that Satan comes as an angel of light?
But he and his magnificent whore bride deceive you because your heart is not right with God:
“And then the lawless one will be unveiled, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and will destroy by the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and in all deception of unrighteousness among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie, so that they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 EMTV).
Julie, you need to humble yourself. Yes, repentance is possible with God, as you will see from our writings if you read them. It is not only possible, but it is His will and destination for every person (2 Peter 3:9), contrary to that most blasphemous of teachings propagated by the Catholic Church, the eternal torment of hell fire kept in store for most of humanity. One author connected to your site says that all the trees in the world piled high and set aflame cannot begin to equal the heat of the flames of hell that will be experienced by those outside of the good graces of your church. Have you ever been burned by fire, Julie? Just keep your finger over a candle for five seconds. Does it make you happy to think some of your friends, associates, and family are destined for this unimaginable torture that has no end, never ever ever ever? What kind of sick person are you?
Thank you so much for your concern for my soul. I am equally concerned for your soul, as you are passing out easy judgment right and left on others from afar without taking the trouble to even speak with them first.
I also will mention that I do not think you can hold Scott Hahn and his employees as representative for the entire Catholic church. You might do better to consult the Catechism or perhaps contact a Vatican official if you would like to represent that you know more than the Catholic church worldwide.
I am happy to correspond if you like. However, rather than a long document as your email, perhaps it would be better to ask one question and then proceed from there.
Julie, you are a liar.
If you believe I am concerned for your soul, as you say you are for mine, then you would read the materials I sent you and would at least answer the question I did ask: “What kind of sick person are you?”
This is a very legitimate and serious question regarding the disgusting belief that your customers, friends, relatives and untold multitudes will be burning and experiencing excruciating pain after death, delivered over to this unimaginable torture by their loving Creator, wherein, after a billion years, their torment will still only be beginning. And you are happy in your Catholic faith?
This is only one of the manifold lies you have swallowed from the liars you follow. Liars follow liars. You are not concerned about me in the least, except to dispose of me as a nuisance for your conscience, if you have any left. That you can so easily consign people to your “Catholic” hell shows how easily you can dispose of your conscience, too.
You complain that we have not talked yet. Have I not red your site? Are you not the author or approving of what is there? How much trouble did John the Baptist take to speak beforehand with those for whom he had these words?
“But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, ‘Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?’” (Matthew 3:7 EMTV)
“Easy judgment”? What matters is true judgment, Julie. I have spoken true words to you.
As for Scott Hahn, the point is not that we need to hear an answer from him or from his church hierarchy, but that he needs to hear our answer to him. He is in great error. The fact that he or no one else can answer our words and the Scriptures we present indicates they cannot refute them. If they could, they would. They simply expose themselves as being concerned with preserving what they think to have, rather than hearing and loving God, Who is the Truth. They take His Name in vain, and are not held guiltless. You are among them.
Regarding the powers that be in your church, our words have gone forth to them as well as to all, and God is presently judging them by the Word that we, along with all His saints, have spoken, just as He has promised from the beginning:
“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him” (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).
“For this reason in one day will her troubles come, death and sorrow and need of food; and she will be completely burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God Who is her Judge” (Revelation 18:8 BBE).
I request nothing from you or your church, only from God that He hastens this judgment for the good of all. You ought to have questions of me, if you would learn anything and change for the better.
Wow, what a sweet talker. How can I resist someone who just comes out and calls me names? Hard to do, I admit, but I’m no ordinary gal or an ordinary Catholic. 😀
God works in mysterious ways. Who says that I did not read the materials you sent?
I chose not to respond to either them or to your question because they were part of such an illogical piece of writing that it seemed to me to it would be simpler to proceed on a question by question basis.
Perhaps you would care to read my conversion story, which is marked in my sidebar. It will show you just how clearly God led me to the Catholic church.
Then we can talk again. Just keep that sweet talk comin’.
Julie, I had already red your testimony. As you put it, the fact that your house situation was taken care of once you took your “bargain” with God off the table had nothing to do with the Catholic Church. So how do you connect becoming a Catholic to God?
In your own words:
“Hannah and Rose had their First Communions and Tom went to confession and started taking communion again. I didn’t mind sitting in the pew until they got back. But, over time, whenever everyone went for communion I developed a yearning for the Eucharist that became an actual physical ache.”
There is nothing at all here that proves your yearnings indicate God’s alleged presence in this ritual. God did not speak or say anything to you. There was no repentance, acknowledgement, or confession of sin. You simply felt something, which tells us nothing about whether it was a good or bad thing. People have strong inclinations towards many destructive things. In fact, your description of what you felt is clinically similar to what one experiences in an unwholesome drug addiction. And that is precisely what it is. Karl Marx, as wrong as he was in some things, was not wrong when he said, “Religion is the opiate of the masses” – religion being the man-made variety that has snared you and the multitudes.
Why do you think the Scriptures warn of being snared by false religion, which They represent as a woman that stalks men’s souls, if false religion were not so seductive and powerful?
Proverbs 7:1-27 MKJV
(1) My son, keep my words and store up my commandments within you.
(2) Keep my commandments and live; and keep my law as the pupil of your eye.
(3) Bind them upon your fingers; write them upon the tablet of your heart.
(4) Say to wisdom, You are my sister; and call understanding your kinsman,
(5) so that they may keep you from the strange woman, from the stranger who flatters with her words.
(6) For at the window of my house I looked through my lattice,
(7) and I saw among the simple ones, among the youths, a young man with no understanding,
(8) passing through the street near her corner. And he went the way to her house,
(9) in the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night.
(10) And, behold, there a woman met him, with the dress of a harlot and a guarded heart.
(11) She is loud and stubborn; her feet do not stay in her house;
(12) now she is outside, now in the streets, and lies in wait at every corner.
(13) And she caught him and kissed him, and with a hard face she said to him,
(14) I have peace offerings with me; today I have paid my vows.
(15) so I came out to meet you, earnestly to seek your face, and I have found you.
(16) I have decked my bed with coverings, with striped cloths of Egyptian linen.
(17) I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
(18) Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning; let us delight ourselves with caresses.
(19) For my husband is not at home, he has gone on a long journey;
(20) he has taken a bag of silver with him and will come home at the day of the full moon.
(21) With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
(22) He goes after her immediately, like an ox goes to the slaughter, or like a fool to the correction of the stocks;
(23) until a dart strikes through his liver; as a bird hastens to the snare and does not know that it is for his soul.
(24) And now listen to me, sons, and attend to the words of my mouth.
(25) Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways, do not go astray in her paths.
(26) For she has cast down many wounded; yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
(27) Her house is the way to hell, going down to the rooms of death.
Do you find it “illogical,” using your word to describe what we present from the Scriptures, that this Scripture is not simply talking about a man having an adulterous affair? That would be natural of you, because the Bible is a closed book to the carnal person. It is a spiritual Book describing the issues of life that are hidden from those that do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (believing in the Catholic Church is not the same thing).
Is God speaking of physical adultery applying to a limited population, or spiritual adultery applying to all? The warning here is for all people at all times, men and women of every age, regarding something that is ubiquitous, magnetic and vastly appealing, far stronger than human will power. Something that comes against God’s commandments and competes with Him and His wisdom from above for the souls of men. There is only one thing that so forthrightly and blasphemously usurps the rightful Husband’s place, and that is man-made religion, namely idolatry.
There is no more exemplary representation of the hubris that thinks to replace God than the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” and its diabolical doctrines. You are a perfect example of how this is so. You go on and on about how much you love the Catholic Church, but we hear nary a word about how much you love Jesus Christ, Who paid for your life with His blood.
What you describe of your growing passion for the Mass is not the drawing of God to Jesus Christ, but the opiate quality of false religion drawing you into Catholicism. You are addicted, and those feeding your addiction are far worse than crack dealers, because they pervert the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ to create their freebase for which you must pay with your soul. You, in turn, serve your unholy masters by spreading the addiction to others.
Quite to the contrary of finding such physical things irresistible, Paul the apostle said:
“All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly and the belly for meats, but God shall destroy both it and them” (1 Corinthians 6:12-13 MKJV).
Nowhere do we see the apostles dispensing such a thing as the Catholic Mass, teaching the consumption of the actual physical body of Christ, and controlling people with it like a drug. You are receiving a false christ, a demonic spirit. Read Diabolical Doctrine: The “Lord’s Supper”.
“This went on for months. A few weeks before Easter I decided I’d better find out how to become Catholic because I couldn’t stand it any more.”
Again, there is no difference between what you experienced and drug addiction, or the description of someone whose passions are enflamed, leading him or her to finally cave to illicit sex, as in the example from Proverbs. That is exactly what happened to you. And did you know that “Easter” is named after “Ishtar,” the many-breasted goddess of fertility? How appropriate that you choose her day to be offered up on her altar!
That which is evidence to you of God’s involvement in your conversion speaks of another god altogether:
“Finally it was the Easter Vigil of 2000, the wonderful day when I was Catholic and could have the Eucharist. I love it. I love the traditions, I love the saints, I love the Eucharist … I love being Catholic.”
Julie, this proves nothing except Catholicism is a god to you, not that God has anything to do with it. You love all the trappings of pagan religion and their gods (are you not aware of the plentiful information that describes the pagan origins of these things you love?). You do not profess or have a love of Jesus Christ, the Truth. You are confounded and confused by your idolatries.
Finally, the icing on the cake that you present as proof of God leading you to choose to become a Catholic was that your father-in-law, a lapsed Catholic, came back into the fold and took communion with you. Anyone from one of a thousand sects and religions, all at odds with one another, experiences the same kind of thing and attributes it to God, Whom they think, as do you, that He is surely with them and not with all others. This is Babylon, confusion.
Again, you are talking about the power of man and his religion. What you describe here is nothing other than your leading another person to be joined, or recommitted, to that strange woman who is drunk with the blood of the saints (Revelation 17), false religion as described in the proverbs I quoted you. She is indeed very impressive. The apostle John saw her and found her astonishing.
Your father-in-law might be greatly impressed with your industry and dedication and with you personally as a human being, but none of these things are ever the basis for any true conversions of those who are born of Christ, “not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but…of God” (John 1:13 MKJV).
The things you describe that motivated your father-in-law are the very things that make proselytes to the various religions of men – affiliations of blood and the many expressions of piety, intelligence, pageantry and sincerity that impress the flesh and fool the simple. Adding to those the promise of eternal rewards if joining and the threat of eternal hell if not, who would say no or resist this magnificent woman’s offer?
But no true conversion to Christ ever came by the inducements of carrot or stick. Not one. I challenge you to find just one such conversion in Scripture. It does not happen except in pagan religions invented by men, such as Islam and Catholicism.
You write of another aspect that you find convincing:
“One of the things that made my conversion so powerful to me in retrospect is that it was done without any reading or influence from outsiders at all. This was all just between God and me.”
That is your private interpretation of the event, but we do not see or hear that God said anything at all to you, as I have shown by the contrariness to His ways of those things you attribute to Him. What happened was between you and the Catholic Church, period; God had nothing to do with it. You have simply substituted the Roman Church and all her pagan practices and abominations for God, bundling and calling it by His Name.
But God does send mediators, ministers that influence their hearers because they preach the good news of Christ, which is fruitful in those given of God to receive His faith:
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from a preacher?”(Romans 10:13-14 EMTV).
You have depended on that most undependable of organs, your own heart, to lead you, and it has, disastrously so:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 MKJV)
You fulfill the proverb:
“There is a way that seems right to a person, but eventually it ends in death” (Proverbs 16:25 GW).
You glory in, and are impressed by, one of the greatest, oldest, and most glorious organizations on earth, but here is what Jesus Christ has to say of you and it:
“You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God” (Luke 16:15 MKJV).
There were those who were afraid of confessing Christ lest they should be kicked out of their churches. They loved man’s praise more than God’s praise. You love man’s praise. You revel in it, which is evident by your testimony of Rome. You see yourself as a heroine of the Catholic Church and love their accolades, not considering that, in your ways, you revile the Lord, Who has absolutely nothing to do with a vile, lawless, abusive, murderous, blasphemous harlot.
Your judgment has now come by our words sent of God for you.
Now I will say something that may seem contradictory to you, but if you read the Scripture you will see there is no contradiction, though you have no use for, and do not believe, the Word of God:
I have no doubt at all that God did lead you into the Catholic Church. As it is written:
“And then the lawless one will be unveiled, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and will destroy by the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and in all deception of unrighteousness among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie, so that they all might be damned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 EMTV).
No, being consumed by the breath of His mouth is not sweet talk, as you indicate in your fruitless and bitter sarcasm. Your stance is not pure or right before God, and that is why you are not coddled in your sins. Sweetness is what you get from those who destroy you:
“Faithful are the wounds of a lover, and plentiful are the kisses of one hating” (Proverbs 27:6 LITV).
We know you, being confident in your darkness and sin and in the multitudes with you, will continue to be scornful and sarcastic (as adulterous women can be) toward us and what we speak as the Lord’s servants, but you will see the price to be paid for your ways. You will know it is Lord Who has sent us.
Just a comment first of all … the word is spelled “read” as in “read your testimony” not “red.” I’m sure this is just your spell checker but you might want to note that it is possibly making a substitution you do not know about.
I am glad to see that you understand that “feelings” and “faith” are not necessarily always connected. This is a trap that too many people fall into. However, you are not quite correct in thinking that just because they do not “have to” be connected, that they “never” are connected. Quite often, this is what God uses to help us find the right way. As I will discuss below, when we see an example.
I think it is interesting that you present those portions of my testimony as being a false drawing in to the Church and then say that it has never been done that way before. I find it interesting because just today in Mass, the Gospel reading is that of Jesus meeting the adulterous Samaritan woman at the well.
As I do well know, and as is taught by the Church, scripture can have meaning on many levels (so that whole “carnal person” thing is off base and definitely is not in line with Church teachings on how scripture can be understood). This story is one of a deep conversion. Christ draws the Samaritan woman from her understanding of material things (water from the cistern) to a longing for “living water” which is what He gives us. He understands that her previous “five husbands” and the one she is living with who is not a husband is her longing for a deeper love, the love that God gives us and that she cannot find with these men.
She then goes back to the townspeople who have previously shunned her (as otherwise she wouldn’t have been hauling water at noon, the hottest time of the day) and gives them her testimony.
The longing she feels in her heart is filled by Jesus. (That would be the “carrot” as also felt in my longing for the Eucharist.) She then goes and testifies to everyone she can find. Because we cannot hold in what God has given but want to share it.
I also find these sorts of statements to be interesting: We know you, being confident in your darkness and sin and in the multitudes with you, will continue to be scornful and sarcastic (as adulterous women can be) toward us and what we speak as the Lord’s servants, but you will see the price to be paid for your ways.
Why do you have such a lack of confidence in your own powers of persuasion? Or such a need to condemn me without even giving me a chance to read all that you have written? Very interesting in what this says about either what you believe or what you desire … either way it does not bespeak a confidence that I would think you would have. Hmmmmm …
On the whole “house” and “Catholic” thing, I would think the connection is obvious. I spent that year thinking about God, and the time before the prayer was prompted, in a Catholic church. Other schools were open to us, other schools that were attached to churches … and yet we were in a Catholic church. Sheez. Give me some credit and puhleez … give me a break here.
Let me also clear up another apparent misconception for you. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Period. I do not “believe in” the Catholic Church. I “believe in” the Holy Trinity, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. It is through Jesus I have been given my salvation. My works are not anything that earn my way to heaven but are, rather, the fruit of being a Christian and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
As is said in scripture, which I also believe is the living word of God, I believe what Jesus said when he said in Matthew 16:
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 ”I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 ”I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.” 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.
That church is the one I am in now. With over 2,000 years of history, wisdom and understanding of Christ’s revelations through scripture.
Now, I am not being scornful, just factual.
God speaks to each persons’ heart in His own way; the way that will resonate in each person to know the Truth which is God.
I do not come and judge how He has spoken to you. Your objections, frankly, are specious and quite illogical. Again, not being scornful but being factual. If there is one thing I am quite good at, it is being logical. That comes naturally to a child of atheists as you might imagine.
Now, I do not like to judge other people’s faith, however, I must at least wonder at this point … if you have truly had an encounter with the Holy Spirit. I wonder this because most people who have had such an encounter do understand the fact that there are feelings and illogical ways that God uses to draw us to Him and also into the Church. Look at how Abraham experienced the covenant with the Lord. Look at Joseph’s dream interpretation. Look at Moses’ experience on the mountain. Any of these could be dismissed easily in very similar ways to those in which you are dismissing my experiences.
I must ask … do you know the Holy Spirit?
Again, I remain concerned for your soul. (Seriously, no lying … I worry about you, Paul.)
You are not reading carefully, because naturally evasive. I did not say that feelings are never connected to real conversions to Christ. I just said you are being led by fleshly ones, of your own heart, which have nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ but have led you to join the antiChrist Catholic Church. You are wasting your time and self-acknowledged logic abilities on straw men.
Our many writings prove that the Catholic Church has nothing whatsoever to do with Christ, and you have not shown one stitch of evidence that demonstrates otherwise. You have avoided the substantive matters altogether.
I am not saying that some true things are not said by the church or Catholics. Victor’s uncle, a Catholic priest, told him, during the days of his searching for the truth, that only Jesus Christ died for every person on earth, religious leaders such as Buddha included, and He alone was resurrected from the dead on behalf of all. That truth hit home and stuck with Victor.
Did that make the priest or the Catholic Church right? No, he stayed in his dead church rather than coming out to follow the living Christ.
When I was searching for truth, I red (by the way, the example above of “lead” becoming “led” is why we write “red” – a little prodding at the peculiar foibles of the English language) a book by Carlos Castaneda that opened my eyes to the existence of the spiritual realm. Did I then go off to join some shamans in Mexico? No. I went on to hear what the Lord had to say to me (not that I determined my own directions – God did). There is instruction everywhere, and in everything, for the one being led into fellowship with the Truth. But there is only one Shepherd Who speaks to those God calls and draws to Himself, and He does not send His sheep into the arms of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
You compare your drawing to the Mass of the Catholic Church to the Samaritan woman at the well who met Jesus. If Christ were in the Mass, as the Catholic Church teaches, there might possibly be some parallel, but since all you are comparing is a cracker to God, there is none. Plainly Jesus Christ is not found in this pagan ritual (originating with sun god worshippers long before the RCC) or in those who believe and practice it, as proven in the article I sent you.
So you were drawn by something else. These are other spirits that call themselves “Christ.” They teach you the pagan and unScriptural “trinity.” Such is not found in Scripture because there is only one God and He makes that known as a central tenet to His people through the Holy Writings (Jesus Christ, Almighty God). You have been taken by imposters and liars, as also pointed out in the cult paper I sent you, which you have not properly red.
Your famous interpretation of Matthew 16, that Jesus was creating a succession of popes through Peter, is a magic and blasphemous trick, with wicked motive, and does not fly. Our writings in the Catholic section on our site give ample explanation, for those who are interested in the Truth.
The carnal mind is at enmity with God, and your confidence in it to bring you to an understanding of Christ is antiChrist, Julie. You act as if you are with God, but cannot judge what we are saying because you are not with Him, and He is not with you. You are in contradiction to the plain fact that if you were walking in the Light as you say, you could see and righteously judge where we are coming from and whether or not God, the Spirit of Christ, is with us.
What you call the “Holy Spirit,” which draws people into the Catholic Church, is a devil. We do not give any honor or thought to your devils and their influences, except to expose them.
You have confidence, and take pride, in your reasoning:
“If there is one thing I am quite good at, it is being logical. That comes naturally to a child of atheists as you might imagine.”
Your logic is built on false premises. As for the natural ability of the atheist, this is what God has to say:
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:14-16 MKJV).
Neither will you find us negating “illogical” ways of God. Obviously, you have not red our testimonies and those of others with us. Still, we reject one cutting off her nose, saying God led her to do so.
Don’t confuse “specious” with “specific.” Tell us precisely how my arguments are specious and illogical. Because you misread or misunderstand does not make the subject matter invalid. Is that not logical?
We have His Mind to see, hear, and comprehend. The things we express herein are not the product of religious bigots or charlatans, biased, vain and ignorant people who are known to make prejudiced statements without true knowledge, as do you. We know whereof we speak, by experience, by legitimate knowledge, by the Scriptures (of which you are entirely in the dark) and by the revelation and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, Who dwells in us. While we bear witness to the True Life, you testify of an impressive, sophisticated, usurpatious organization that blasphemes against God in all its ways. Its days, by the way, are finished. Her days of blasphemies, sorceries and butcheries are over. Read all about it in Revelation 18.
But you know better. So go your way with your chosen associates, if that is what you wish to do. No need to try to convince us when we are standing in the Light and see your darkness. We have specifically addressed you and your claims with Scriptural doctrine combined with godly reason, while all you can do is pass judgment on us by ignorant surmisings and opinion, with no substance, which is common for all children of darkness.
I do not believe you when you say you are concerned about my soul. I know you can’t be, but if you wish to prove me wrong, then read what I have sent you, especially our testimonies, and then see how justified is your concern.
Do we condemn you, Julie? No, we don’t. But we speak the Truth to and for you. For the time you despise and mock it, and we say so, not because we are not confident, as you suppose, but because we know you, your ways, and your end, and notify you of them, for your sake. We have arrived and know the One Path to that Destination. Therefore we speak to all.
If you will not even accept the standards of English spelling (“red” instead of “read”) but must invent your own and use it as superior, that says volumes about your ability to accept any authority at all.
Including that of God.
All your protestations about the Catholic Church and your denials of clearly understandable scripture for your own inventions just go to show what lengths you will to go to have your own way. Therefore it is not possible for any person using normal logic to have a reasonable conversation because your insistance on having your own way makes you take twists and turns that logic cannot follow.
My heart goes out to you. I will pray for you.
Until you give up your insistance on your own ways, you will never know the truth. Should you come to that point, please let me know. Until then, I wish you well.
Julie, Victor Hafichuk here,
We use thousands of English words as they are generally used, but use one word differently, though logically, and you fault Paul for it, writing him off as unreasonable? Is this not a flimsy excuse because you are found wanting? Is this not the arrogance of the flesh and of the Roman Catholic Church in all its contradiction and evil? Surely.
Even the use of the word “red” instead of the spelling of “read” for past tense usage could be an example of naturally evolving language according to logic. How do you know the word “led” was not once spelled “lead,” as intended for the past tense? How do you know? You don’t. Your problem, Julie, is that you are not an honest person.
Your throne is a flimsy one, your zealous, “happy” highness. While you rely solely on the might of earthly Rome, we rely on the right of our Heavenly home, the Lord of which is Jesus Christ. Might shall not prevail against right in the long run, if ever. You cannot answer our many objections and papers that address the fallacy of the Roman Church, so you find a tiny excuse to brush us off with pretentious concern and general condemnation entirely void of substance. Is it any wonder you were snared by the lying whore to support and glorify her?
Why do you stop your ears from hearing the truth that will save you? You glory in men and their praises.
Are you at all familiar with the Roman Church history and how through many centuries the RCC slaughtered multitudes of peoples – real Christians, Protestants, Jews, Muslims and others who did not acknowledge her presumptuous authority and believe her audacious, blasphemous lies? These mass murders (sometimes whole cities at once) were the constant directives of many popes, and not mere blips in history. She even tortured and slaughtered her own in the infamous Inquisition and elsewhere.
Even if she were slaughtering bona fide heretics, is she justified in Christ? Did Jesus Christ do or teach such things? You quote Scripture; see if you can quote Scripture to justify these deeds; or will you rely on “tradition” now, which often contradicts Scripture, as the Catholic Church does, seeing there is no Scripture for murder? Did the Lord’s disciples perform capital punishment and murder? Did He not direct His disciples to put away the sword, saying, “He that lives by the sword, dies by the sword,” even at a time when its use could have been justified as self-defense? Who kills whom? We tell you – read The Persecutors and the Persecuted.
And each pope presumes to be Christ’s sole representative on earth, blasphemously claiming both temporal and spiritual authority over all peoples, using not right but the might of this world to assert his claims and to force upon all, believer and unbeliever alike, acknowledgment and acceptance of those claims. Contrary to Rome’s pretensions and tyranny, Christ said His Kingdom (rulership) is not of this world:
“ Jesus answered, My Kingdom is not of this world. If My Kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My Kingdom is not from here” (John 18:36 MKJV).
Therefore He did not impose His Heavenly Kingdom upon earth’s inhabitants by earthly force. Indeed, the very nature of the Kingdom precludes such action and the nature and might of earth contradict and oppose the nature and might of the Kingdom.
Are you aware of the times when popes had mistresses and children, contrary to true morals and vows? Are you aware that while they live fat and comfortable in their luxury, their own followers are without food, clothing, medical attention and shelter? Would Christ do that with His own? Answer me, Julie. Here is what the Scriptures of the True Jesus Christ declare:
“I have been young, and am old; yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, or his seed begging bread” (Psalms 37:25 MKJV).
Your “papa,” Julie, is a phony and a heretic. You will yet choke on your crackers and spit them out in horror when once you come to a true knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, Creator of Heaven and earth and all they contain.
Are you aware that the popes constantly plagued the peoples with covetous lies, like possessing the power to give the souls of loved ones dispensations from Purgatory, if these simple souls joined the Crusades to “liberate the holy land”? And when they volunteered, they were promised riches and obtained “holy” justification to slaughter innocent peoples and pillage all goods in their path, as directed and/or sanctioned by the Roman Church and the “Most Holy Father”?
Are you aware people were taught that by paying indulgences to Rome, they could be forgiven for any and all sins, even future? In other words, one could buy grace and forgiveness – mammon could force God’s hand.
And, oh, the manifest insanity of such vile doctrines and “logic” such as yours! Here is a quote from Martin Luther, a man who, though not innocent, was not the charlatan the Roman Church makes him out to be, a man who stood up to the might of Rome at the risk of his life for the sake of truth. He spoke of a Church-appointed and sanctioned indulgence collector, Johann Tetzel:
“After Tetzel had received a substantial amount of money at Leipzig, a nobleman asked him if it were possible to receive a letter of indulgence for a future sin. Tetzel quickly answered in the affirmative, insisting, however, that the payment had to made at once. This the nobleman did, receiving thereupon letter and seal from Tetzel. When Tetzel left Leipzig the nobleman attacked him along the way, gave him a thorough beating, and sent him back empty-handed to Leipzig with the comment that this was the future sin which he had in mind. Duke George at first was quite furious about this incident, but when he heard the whole story he let it go without punishing the nobleman” (see http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/tetzel.htm).
Are you aware that the Catholic Church has never repented of any of these machinations and deeds? While a few clergy (including perhaps yours) may rarely utter some apologies and admissions of wrongdoing here and there, sincerely or otherwise, these declarations are neither official nor supported by the Church of Rome. The Catholic Church stands firm on its past actions as the God-ordained, righteous directions of an infallible Vicar of Christ on earth.
The Roman Church has not failed to be guilty of every horrible blasphemy and atrocity possible, and the trunk manifestly has not changed to this day. It is the same, old, rotten tree, easily visible to those with eyes to see, audible to those with ears to hear, and comprehensible to those with hearts to comprehend.
Are you aware of Jesus’ words, saying, “Call no man ‘father’ on earth”? But the popes will not stop with “father”; they must blaspheme to the highest Heaven with “Most Holy Father,” impudently repudiating the One they profess to worship. You worship “another Jesus,” even as the apostle Paul warned.
Are you not aware of the hundreds, if not thousands, of priests and bishops molesting trusting children in their congregations and schools?
Are you not aware that though many clergy have been exposed, only the tip of the iceberg has been seen, as in most things? Or will your “logic” deny the facts because you are Catholic?
Are you not aware that dioceses and bishoprics of the Catholic Church transfer their clerical sex deviants and monsters to avoid publicity and to hide and protect them from prosecution?
Are you not aware that they defend their clerical offenders in courts against what is just? Are you not aware that they even place them in positions with further opportunities to molest, of which deviants do not often fail to take advantage?
These are all facts and matters of documented, public record. And they are not isolated incidents but numerous and widespread. Obviously, something is utterly putrid, so far beyond a tiny spot or blemish, which spot or blemish alone would disqualify the Roman Church as Christ’s bride.
Why should Catholic priests be able to molest their congregants’ wives, sons and daughters, and that in the Name of Christ, while the ordinary man on the street must be punished publicly and serve time? Should leaders not be held responsible above other men, seeing they presume to be spiritual overseers in Christ? Surely! But the Catholic Church determines that temporal rulers have no authority over it. That is why.
In essence, the Catholic Church says to the world, “You do as we say, and we will do as we please!”
These are not fabricated charges, foolish imaginations, or false accusations, Julie. They are a matter of record for all those willing to face the truth. You have been seduced by the devil. (By the way, I perceive your definitions of “logic,” “reason,” and “intelligence” to be “agreement with the might of Rome.” It will not do, not even before men, and certainly not before God.)
But your “most holy father” does not see things that way. He sanctions the protection of his offending clerical flock. And neither do you see things this way, or you would not follow him:
“And when He puts forth His own sheep, He goes before them, and the sheep follow Him. For they know His voice. And they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers” (John 10:4-5 MKJV).
Are you not aware of any of these things? On record are thousands of horrible deeds of Rome, documented and verified. You, Julie, therefore, are not only a liar, but also a murderer and blasphemer, a killer of saints and a child molester, in that you are a partaker of this organization and zealously promote it.
Are we saying that every Catholic cleric is guilty of these things directly? No, we are not. But we do say that they are all guilty by association, as are you. Association alone with evil brings condemnation:
“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues. For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds. Reward her as she has rewarded you, and double to her double, according to her works. In the cup which she mixed, mix double to her. As much as she has glorified herself and has lived in luxury, so much torment and sorrow give her. For she says in her heart, I sit as a queen, and I am not a widow; and I do not see mourning at all. Therefore her plagues will come in one day, death and mourning and famine. And she will be consumed with fire, for the Lord God Who judges her is strong” (Revelation 18:4-8 MKJV).
You are there to please yourself. You have claimed to be the “happy Catholic,” but while men say that ignorance is bliss, God says that people perish for lack of knowledge. You perish and you do not know it, smiling as you rape, steal, deceive, kill, and destroy, deliberately or otherwise. You choose pride and self aggrandizement before men over humility before God.
Julie, as Paul originally said to you, you are a liar. You refuse the entrance of truth. You better read Proverbs one, the entire chapter, especially verses 24 to 33. They now specifically apply to you. You need to repent, cease seeking glory and praise of man, and begin to face reality. God is not at all pleased with you, as you like to think, and we have reason to believe you are beginning to know it. If not, you soon will.
And you misspelled the word “insistence” twice.
My Dear Victor,
I see that Paul had to call in the Marines.
I went too fast for the spell check on my browser. Whoops. I slipped up. You don’t even have that for an excuse. Your reason is a deliberate lack of respect for the authority of the English language. The fact that you are defending this absurd notion of spelling just tells me that you have the same problem with authority that Paul does.
The answer to your question about “red” is that, as most language scholars know readily, any use such as “read” for both present and past tense is an archaic use … because the word used to be pronounced that way for both uses. We have over time changed the pronunciation but the spelling didn’t change along with it.
Now, as for all that you say about Catholics and the Holy Father? I can show you example after example that has been likewise committed by Protestant leaders and their flocks just the same. This is because we are all people and people make mistakes or let their passions run away with them. They take actions that are regrettable, unwise, and … sometimes … evil. Is it right? No. But lamentably, this is human nature and every Christian, no matter whose authority they follow, must acknowledge this fact.
I think this says it well:
Murphy, who was more or less Catholic, frowned. “Seems to me that Christianity has a few things to say about forgiveness and tolerance and treating others the way you’d like to be treated.”
“Uh-huh,” I said. “Then came the Crusades, the Inquisition …”
“Which is my point,” Murphy said. “Regardless of what I think about Islam or Wicca or any other religion, the fact is that it’s a group of people. Every faith has its ceremonies. And since it’s made up of people, every faith also has its assholes.”
Jim Butcher, White Night
You might also wish to consider also this.
You judge a medicine by those who take it, not by those who pour it down the sink.
You are right that Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world. However, he also did not leave us bereft without a shepherd. As for me, I will stick with what Jesus said and not try to deny it or twist it into a new meaning that is more convenient to me, as many do. I will take Him at His word in Matthew 16.
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
I am not sure what you expect to get out of this conversation as you are so clearly interested in attacking and not in reasoning or having a conversation … which would be the usual ways of give and take about faith.
Regardless, we are all one Body as long as we believe in Christ. I am not interested in stabbing a member of the Body of Christ, even if it is merely with words. I am concerned about your soul that you are so angry and upset.
I will be praying for you as well as for Paul.
Julie, all of us in Christ are soldiers for the Truth. You simply have not met any before, just phony religious, like yourself. Let me ask you, “Who has a problem with authority, the one that follows a lying usurper, or the ones that do not, because they follow Christ?”
Where is your much vaunted logic? You say that the pronunciation of “read” changed over time, but the spelling did not. Where is the logic in not changing that as well? This circumstance is representative of all your self-righteous, religious ways that are grievous to God. You are a proponent of confusion over what is right and good, favoring the traditions of men rather than what is true, just like the Lord spoke of your fathers:
Mark 7:6-9 EMTV
(6) And answering He said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
(7) And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
(8) “For having left the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men–the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other similar things you do.”
(9) And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the commandment of God, so that you may keep your tradition.”
“Now, as for all that you say about Catholics and the Holy Father? I can show you example after example that has been likewise committed by Protestant leaders and their flocks just the same.”
Go ahead; who cares? Because they also behave as villains and scofflaws, does that justify you and the whore of Rome? Do two wrongs now make a right? For you, yes, because for you it has never been about what is right. It has been about power in numbers and being right because powerful. Might makes you right. You are wrong before God, however, and so are all those who support and do the same kinds of abominable works as you and your church.
What is this nonsense about “Protestantism” anyway? We are not fools who think to give the Catholic Church any credibility. She has none whatsoever before God. Therefore, we do not “protest” and seek to “reform” what is utterly corrupt and fit only to be burned by fire:
“Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God Who judges her” (Revelation 18:8 KJV).
God says to not even touch the unclean thing, and others are talking about trying to reform it? Those who think so only confess that they are part of the problem, and not part of the Solution.
You say that the sins of the Catholic Church and others who follow her in her ways are “lamentable,” but “this is human nature and every Christian, no matter whose authority they follow, must acknowledge this fact.”
Yes, it is human nature, but does this mean we honor the self-appointed ministers of Christ, who walk in the flesh and serve corrupt human nature? Not on your life. Because you have forfeited yours, should we too? Here is what the Lord has to say about what the fruits you justify indicate:
“You can tell what they are by what they do. No one picks grapes or figs from thorn bushes. A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Every tree that produces bad fruit will be chopped down and burned. You can tell who the false prophets are by their deeds” (Matthew 7:16-20 CEV).
Bad fruit may be good enough for you, but it is not good enough for God and those who follow Him. The excuse, “Well, we are all just sinners,” is just that, an excuse and an honest confession that there has not been a true repentance and nature change, the one the apostle John talks about:
“We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin, but the one born of God guards himself, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and all the world lies in evil” (1 John 5:18-19 MKJV).
We are of God and know it, while you are in this evil world, as you readily confess, having made your bed and choosing to remain there. Now God holds you responsible for your choice, because you have been notified of the Truth, yet reject Him. It is you who pours the Medicine down the sink, and then you insist on a toxic and lethal substitute. No matter how many you get to agree with and honor you in your choice, it still remains what it is.
You do not know how to answer us because we are not representing the whore or any of her daughters. We are not a religion. Yes, we agree, there is no fundamental difference between Catholicism and Wicca, except Wicca is less pretentious and blasphemous. Christ is not a religion, though, but the Son of God. That is What we are. True Christians are His very Body. Therefore we are no longer “assholes,” as your quote terms it, unless you are calling Him an “asshole.”
Here is what God says of His people, contrary to what you quote from heathen philosophers of this evil world:
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him Who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9 MKJV).
If you believed Matthew 16 you would have received our priesthood in the praises of Christ, and would walk in the Light with us, as He is in the Light. But the Heavenly Father has not revealed Him to you. It is not that we are attacking a member of the Body of Christ (or otherwise). We are exposing your fraudulent claim to having anything to do with Him. You count us as enemies because we have told you the Truth. You are the enemy of Truth.
The kisses of an enemy are deceitful, and you clearly are deceived about your true intent and the nature of your actions. You have been looking in the mirror and seeing yourself as a beneficent princess and clever, faithful warrior maid of a magnificent entity, but now we hold up the true mirror for you to see what is really there, according to what God sees. You have joined yourself to a murderous whore, because you are one yourself. You should not be concerned whether we, as men, are angry, but that God is:
“And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17 MKJV)
Dear Paul and Victor,
My what a compliment it is that both of you feel you have to get together to write! Also, Paul, I have to say that “warrior maid” comment is priceless. I thought I would die laughing and my husband now is calling me, “Xena, warrior princess” around the house. So thank you for that … I still giggle when I think of it.
You say you want the truth? Here’s some logic for you.
It needs very little to deal with the example you have given of your entire mindset. You have been arguing that your decision to spell the word “read” as “red” is justified. When I told you the historic reasons for this, your response was as follows:
You say that the pronunciation of “read” changed over time, but the spelling did not. Where is the logic in not changing that as well? This circumstance is representative of all your self-righteous, religious ways that are grievous to God.
Let us examine this statement.
First, this issue is not a matter of “logic.” It is a matter of history. This is history which anyone can find by using various sources. I highly recommend that you read “English, Our Mother Tongue and How It Got That Way” by Bill Bryson. It is a good read as well as highly enjoyable.
Secondly, rather than respond, “Oh, I didn’t know that” or “Wait, let me look into that further” you simply dig in to defend your position which is based on nothing other than your own thoughts. At the same time, you attack entirely the wrong thing … my logic. If anything, you should be attacking my understanding of linguistics, history, or the sources I have used.
Thirdly, you take your erroneous understanding and extrapolate it to a larger argument. You thereby are building your entire larger argument on a house of sand which crumbles under the slightest application of fact.
This sequence of events, as seen above, is exactly what is wrong with your entire apologetics effort.
You begin with a personal belief, which as far as I can tell is not based on any sort of true logic or even a true understanding of contextual scripture. You throw it out there, based with many extrapolations of what the person targeted “probably” is thinking or feeling, and then throw in a little name calling for shock effect.
This makes for the weakest sort of discussion or argument. It is illogical, immature, and unworthy of grown men. The name calling is especially unnecessary for it does not serve the purpose of shocking the target but of revealing your own weaknesses.
I feel for your passion. I do not understand your extreme anger, however, I do pity you for it as that is very far from the peace that passes all understanding that Jesus Christ holds out to us.
Now, let’s be clear. I do not have time to waste with such venting of feelings that is illogical in the extreme. At its best it is uninformed. At its worst it is simply self indulgent.
Should you care to take one thing (ONE) and come back to me desiring conversation, a true give and take of concepts, something worthy of all our time, then I am happy to continue our conversations. I don’t care what the topic is. Papal authority. The Eucharist as true body and blood of Jesus Christ. Veneration of Mary. The history of spelling “read.” Whether Barak Obama or Hilary Clinton will win the Democratic nomination. I’m willing to talk about anything.
Do be advised that shorter is better and the less personal an argument gets, the more seriously the recipient takes it.
Your sister in Christ,
Xena, warrior princess
Paul’s reply to Victor:
Good morning, Victor!
No wonder the Muslims are here.
I do not have anything else to say to her.
Victor’s reply to Paul, also sent to Julie:
On the one hand, it looks like we erred, falling for the discussion on “red,” and using expressions like “warrior maid.” On the other, it all exposes her, and with attitudes like that identified with Christ, I say to the Muslims and the plagues, “Have at her. We have tried.” I agree with God on the coming necessary judgment now at the doors.
We have a conversation with Deborah, a Catholic who says that Jesus asked her to put up images of Himself and "saints," and who wishes to be a great saint in her own right. we point out the error of the ways and idolatries of the Catholic Church, which she walks in and defends.
In this world, looming behind any consideration of what it means to be a Christian is the Catholic Church, with her audacious claim to being the sole authority representing Christ on earth, with all power of God vested in her. Does this claim hold up to the Light of Day? Here, in simple terms, you have the opportunity to have a look and see for yourself.
Throughout history, the Roman Catholic Church has slaughtered countless numbers of people who did not agree with its doctrines and practices, such as Lutherans, Calvinists, Mennonites, Hutterites, Anabaptists, Waldenses, Albigenses, Montanists, Quakers, Puritans, Methodists, and many, many more.