From: John
To: The Path of Truth
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 3:34 PM
Subject: Trinity?
Good afternoon. A chance meeting with a former co-worker who is an Elder in the WTBTS prompted me to read the Bible for the first time and investigate the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I discovered three major issues; the poor character of their early leaders Russell and Rutherford, their history of false prophecies and the scholastic dishonesty of their New World Translation.
I would never be rude to my friend, but all my attempts to lead him to Christ have failed to register. He was raised in a family of Jehovah’s Witnesses and has been unwavering, dedicated and devout for many, many years.
Is there one ultimate, bullet-proof, compelling Bible verse or sovereign question that’s been shown to defeat the cult’s mind control? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.
I discovered you site while researching Sid Roth, who I think is a kook, and if I understand you correctly, you don’t believe in the Trinity?
Genesis 1:26King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…
As many have noted, God didn’t say ‘Let me make man in my image, after my likeness’ so he must have been speaking to His Son as an equal.
Further;
Genesis 19:24King James Version (KJV)
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
Doesn’t this passage speak to the composite unity of God? How else could it be explained? We could never construct a sentence reading “Victor poured water from the garden hose on the fire at the front of the house while Victor operated the faucet in the back of the house.” without confusing the reader.
Finally;
John 5:37King James Version (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Doesn’t this beg the question, who spoke to Moses, Abraham and Noah?
Respectfully
John
From: Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
To: John
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Trinity?
Hi John,
You ask about the Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“Is there one ultimate, bullet-proof, compelling Bible verse or sovereign question that’s been shown to defeat the cult’s mind control?”
The whole Bible testifies that Jesus Christ is God, which the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny.
“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me [the One and Only God], and you will not come to Me that you might have life” (John 5:39-40 MKJV).
There are many Scriptures that directly defeat JW false doctrine. You’re asking, however, about defeating JW mind control, which shows you’ve fallen into the same trap as the JWs. You too behave as if the Bible holds the key to liberating people. The Bible never liberated anyone – only Jesus Christ can do that:
John 8:34-36 ESV
(34) Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.
(35) The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.
(36) So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
You believe you understand the Bible with your carnal mind, just like the JW’s do, and you’re both wrong. You are both under human “mind control.”
That’s why you can’t hear what we’re saying about “the Trinity.” Your objections are answered in our writings. Have you red them all?
The Asininity of the Trinity
By Any Other Name, It’s Still the Trinity: And It Smells Bad
The Carnal Reasonings of a Trinitarian
Diabolical Doctrine: The Trinity (God Is Three Persons)
The Gospel According to Trinitarians
Jesus Christ Is God (section)
The Perfecting Faith of the Son of God
The Wisdom of God Trumps Trinitarian Tricksterism
You Can’t Explain What You Don’t Know: And You Can’t Know What You Don’t Have
Regarding two of your questions, I have something specific to say:
“Genesis 19:24King James Version (KJV)
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
Doesn’t this passage speak to the composite unity of God? How else could it be explained? We could never construct a sentence reading “Victor poured water from the garden hose on the fire at the front of the house while Victor operated the faucet in the back of the house.” without confusing the reader.”
Where does it say the Lord was in two different locations, as you illustrate using Victor as an example? And aren’t you aware that God does MANY things simultaneously, well beyond your very finite comprehension? Of Jesus Christ, God come in the flesh, it is written:
“For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV).
Do you, in your naïve arrogance, think you’re able to qualify Who God is and what He does? Read what the LORD answered Job in chapters 38-41.
“Finally;
John 5:37King James Version (KJV)
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
“Doesn’t this beg the question, who spoke to Moses, Abraham and Noah?”
Only to one who doesn’t know God or His ways.
Hebrews 1:1-3 MKJV
(1) God, Who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
(2) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds,
(3) Who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,
John, read:
Repentance
What Is Faith?
How One Is Saved
The Baptism in the Holy Spirit
The Cross – Only the Death Sentence Will Avail
Paul Cohen & Victor Hafichuk
www.ThePathofTruth.com
From: John
To: Paul and Victor
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: Trinity?
Good morning Paul. Thanks for your comprehensive response. However, it does reveal the frailty of my email. I never claimed to fully understand the Bible, in fact I’m a neophyte. I bought The Tanakh, aka the Jewish Bible, because I understood it had the greatest fidelity to the original Hebrew texts and used the King James Version to cross-reference.
In my opinion, the Bible has lead many to salvation, where else can one find the inspired word of God?
To date, I am a free moral agent with no affiliation to any organized religion and not subject to any mind control. How can you make such a declaration never having met me?
No, I haven’t the links you provided.
To me, and countless others, the scripture below clearly indicates two deities.
“Genesis 19:24King James Version (KJV)
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
john
From: John
To: Paul and Victor
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Trinity?
ps – responding with “in your naïve ignorance” doesn’t seem very Christian does it?
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: John
Cc: Paul Cohen
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: Trinity?
Reply. (John received this because I sent the file by accident.)
“responding with “in your naïve ignorance” doesn’t seem very Christian does it?”
That is, if the truth isn’t very Christian, John. But first of all, we didn’t use those words, which you’ll see if you read them again more carefully.
And the words we DID speak weren’t a condemnation, only identification and declaration of your existent state of condemnation. How “Christian” is it to call someone a viper, hypocrite, liar, evil beast, slow belly, lazy glutton, child of the Devil, or adulterers and adulteresses, stiffnecked and uncircumcised? Will you condemn the saints as unChristian, even Jesus Christ as unChristian?
However, those words weren’t as offensive as you took them. Are you not naïve about these matters? And are you not in arrogance presuming to qualify Who God is and what He does and comprehend Him? Haven’t we all been guilty of such? Are you alone innocent? Or do you reject the plain truth of yourself? Why be offended when we’re trying to help? Do you not like the scalpel when used to remove a tumor?
You see how steeped you are in darkness? You don’t know what you’re talking about because you don’t have the true faith of the saints. The harlot has done her number on you so much so that you think that sex in marriage is illegitimate because sex exists in fornication.
Titus 1:10-16 MKJV
(10) For there are indeed many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
(11) whose mouth you must stop, who subvert whole houses, teaching things not right for the sake of ill gain.
(12) One of them, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.
(13) This witness is true; for which cause convict them sharply, so that they may be sound in the faith,
(14) not giving heed to Jewish myths and commandments of men, turning away from the truth.
(15) To the pure all things are pure. But to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God, but in their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient and reprobate to every good work.
Repent, John, and receive God’s respect, and then you won’t have to demand respect or cry when you don’t receive it.
We’re here to serve for your sake as well as the Lord’s. Take it that way or be offended, your choice.
Victor
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: John
Cc: Paul Cohen
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: Trinity?
John, you just received a letter in a file from me with reply to your letter. Also, you didn’t answer the question of where you find the Lord in two places in that passage, therefore assuming there are “two deities.” Your example is a matter of semantics and can be understood in more than one way.
You say, “No, I haven’t the links you provided.” I suppose you mean you didn’t read them (missing a word). Do read them all. Hopefully, you’ll be thankful you did.
One could change your example of me and the water to:
“Victor poured water from the garden hose on the fire while Victor (or “he”) operated the faucet.”
When the Lord appeared to Abraham, He remained present and in full control throughout His creation. Why should it be a strange thing for the Lord to manifest Himself in many places and forms at once? And why should we read into words things that aren’t there? The passage you cite may be “obvious” to you as a self-declared neophyte and “countless others (really?)” but not so “obvious” to us.
We don’t normally reply this instantly to letters; we have much other work ahead of yours to do. I saw this here today while working at my station, seeing you sent your response to both of us, and was inclined for whatever reason to respond immediately.
Read all the links we sent you and then get back to us, if you will.
\/
From: John
To: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Trinity?
The JWs discourage independent Bible study. Why? Because without their “guidance” they fear most will come to believe in the Trinity, the soul, the resurrection, Hell and salvation through faith not works. Just a quick Google search tells me there are far more Trinitarians within Christendom that those who deny it – ergo my choice of the word countless.
I will try and read those links and see what I discover.
john
From: John
To: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Trinity?
another example, if the Bible was not meant to sow confusion and contains no mysteries, the wording implies two dieties
Amos 4:10-11King James Version (KJV)
10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
Revelation clearly reveals two Alpha and Omegas, two first and lasts, one of whom had been dead
more later
From: Victor and Paul
To: John
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 7:26 AM
Subject: Re[8]: Trinity?
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 KJV).
“Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no Saviour” (Isaiah 43:10-11 KJV).
Isaiah 45:21-23 MKJV
(21) Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.
(22) Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
(23) I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
“For it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God’” (Romans 14:11 MKJV).
Philippians 2:9-11 MKJV
(9) Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a Name which is above every name,
(10) that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
(11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father [Who manifests Himself to His creation, which manifestation is known as the Son].
Ephesians 4:4-7 MKJV
(4) There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(6) one God and Father of all, Who is above all and through all and in you all.
(7) But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Victor and Paul
From: Sean Fife
To: John
Cc: Victor and Paul
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 6:47 PM
Subject: RE: Re[9]: Trinity?
John,
Victor and Paul forwarded to me the e-mail correspondence they’ve been having with you on the trinity. The Bible is only “sowing confusion” to those such as yourself, who try to impose carnal understanding on the One Who cannot be understood. Even the verses you’ve quoted are plain enough when read in context:
You quote verses 10 and 11 of Amos 4:
10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
Continue reading to the end of the chapter:
Amo 4:12 So I will do this to you, O Israel; because I will do this to you, prepare to meet your God, O Israel. [Who is He?]
Amo 4:13 For lo, He forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what his thought is. He who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the high places of the earth; Jehovah, the God of Hosts, is His name.
Sean
From: John
To: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 8:09 AM
Subject: Who Is Jesus?
Good morning Victor. I intend to cite these two scriptures from the WTBTS New World Translation but the King James Version upholds the same meaning
NWT, Psalms 102:25-27 describes Jehovah’s creative power, his eternity and immutability – attributes that only belong to Almighty God
102 O Jehovah, hear my prayer;+Let my cry for help reach you.+ 2 Do not hide your face from me in my time of distress.+Incline your ear* to me;Do answer me quickly when I call.+ 3 For my days are vanishing like smoke,And my bones are charred like a fireplace.+ 4 My heart has been struck down like grass and has withered,+For I forget to eat my food. 5 Because of my loud groaning,+My bones cling to my flesh.+ 6 I resemble the pelican of the wilderness;I am like a little owl among the ruins. 7 I lie awake;*I am like a solitary bird on a roof.+ 8 All day long my enemies taunt me.+Those who mock me* use my name as a curse. 9 For I eat ashes as my bread,+And my drink is mingled with tears,+ 10 Because of your anger and your indignation,For you lifted me up only to cast me aside. 11 My days are like a fading shadow,*+And I am withering like grass.+ 12 But you remain forever, O Jehovah,+And your fame* will endure for all generations.+ 13 Surely you will rise up and show mercy on Zion,+For it is time to show her your favor;+The appointed time has come.+ 14 For your servants find pleasure in her stones+And have affection even for her dust.+ 15 The nations will fear the name of Jehovah,And all the kings of the earth your glory.+ 16 For Jehovah will rebuild Zion;+He will appear in his glory.+ 17 He will pay attention to the prayer of the destitute;+He will not despise their prayer.+ 18 This is written for the future generation,+So that a people yet to be brought forth* will praise Jah. 19 For he looks down from his holy height,+From the heavens Jehovah views the earth, 20 To hear the sighing of the prisoner,+To release those sentenced to death,+ 21 So that the name of Jehovah will be declared in Zion+And his praise in Jerusalem, 22 When the peoples and kingdomsGather together to serve Jehovah.+ 23 He prematurely robbed me of my strength;He cut short my days. 24 I said: “O my God,Do not do away with me in the middle of my life,You whose years span all generations.+ 25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,And the heavens are the work of your hands.+ 26 They will perish, but you will remain;Just like a garment they will all wear out.Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end.+
NWT Hebrews 1:10-12 ascribes the exact same qualities to Jesus and if Jesus and Jehovah are equals…………………..
1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways.+ 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son,+ whom he appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he made the systems of things.*+ 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory+ and the exact representation of his very being,+ and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins,+ he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.+ 4 So he has become better than the angels+ to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.+ 5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?+ And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?+ 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn+ into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”* 7 Also, he says about the angels: “He makes his angels spirits, and his ministers*+ a flame of fire.”+ 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.* 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you+ with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”+ 10 And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”+
From: John
To: Sean Fife
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Re[9]: Trinity?
Good evening Sean. Respectfully you are misusing the word “carnal” if you apply it to anyone who happens to disagree with you. I am a neophyte in Bible study, but that doesn’t mean I have been disabused of my common sense. In my humble opinion, the evidence tilts heavily towards the Trinity. It doesn’t take a genius level IQ to arrive at the same conclusion that I did concerning Amos 11. One deity speaking about the acts of another. I’m not claiming to understand the mind of God, but he meant for us to understand his Holy Bible, it was written for us to glean from it what we will.
In Revelation we have two entities claiming to be the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. one of whom declares he has been dead. There cannot be two firsts and lasts and there cannot be two Alpha and Omegas.
Only Jehovah God can be worshipped, yet Jesus accepted worship. Jehovah God said he would not share his glory with another, yet Jesus asks God to restore the glory he shared with God before he humbled himself as a human.
john
From: John
To: Sean Fife
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 9:15 PM 9:20 PM
Subject: Who Is Jesus?
don’t know if Victor shared this with you?
Good morning Victor. I intend to cite these two scriptures from the WTBTS New World Translation but the King James Version upholds the same meaning
NWT, Psalms 102:25-27 describes Jehovah’s creative power, his eternity and immutability – attributes that only belong to Almighty God
[Editor’s note: See previous E-mail to Victor.]
NWT Hebrews 1:10-12 ascribes the exact same qualities to Jesus and if Jesus and Jehovah are equals…………………..
[See previous E-mail to Victor]
From: Sean Fife
To: John
Cc: Victor and Paul
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: Re[10]: Trinity?
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.”
(Romans 8:6-7 MKJV)
John,
I maintain what I said in the last e-mail – you try with your carnal mind to understand God. It doesn’t work. No, it’s not a matter of disagreeing with me; my carnal mind doesn’t work any better than yours.
Your terminology speaks for itself – “common sense,” “evidence tilts heavily,” “genius level IQ, etc.” All this speaks of the carnal mind, which is where you are coming from, and it is enmity with God.
Sean
From: John
To: Sean Fife
Cc: Victor and Paul
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Re[10]: Trinity?
Romans 14:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: John
Cc: Paul Cohen, and Sean Fife
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Re[10]: Trinity?
Filed away in the trash bin where it belongs. This man not only has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ, he despises him. Let him go and destroy himself in his vain knowledge as he chooses.
\/
From: John
To: Victor Hafichuk
Cc: Paul Cohen, and Sean Fife
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2016 10:49 AM
Subject: Two Scriptures
I have two scriptures for you Victor Hafichuk – Mathew 27:5 “and he went out and hung himself” and Luke 10:37 “go thou and do likewise”