Nathan’s reply to Paul’s letter to him:
I realized my error as your friend explained my oversight on Tent . ., at the end of my response to your email which is as follows below, I will paste and copy my only response to your reference to my on your web that I wrote out on Tent . . .
Good grief dude . . .you’re stuff wreaks of law and death. You’re justification that God has “you” speak your interpretations of God’s word is based in Old Testament . . .I don’t do away with the Old, but I do keep it in perspective in the fact that the cross removes judgment and establishes grace. There is no grace in your tone or message as near as I can tell. You assume you have authority without establishing relationship. And why I’m even sharing “this” much with you is unclear to me because you didn’t come to Tent, nor did you come to me with any openness whatsoever, but you assume that we’re all doomed for destruction . . .so nothing I’m saying here is going to change anything.
You tell me that I am right that it’s not our business to enforce personal standards on others . . .and then you flip around and tell me that I still have need of repentance. I sense you patronize those to whom you still want to push your agenda on because that’s all it seems you’re doing here . . .you agree that I’m right and follow up in doing just the opposite of what you just said I’m right about. If I need to repent, I will rely on the Holy Spirit to prompt me, not some unknown guy with a chip on his shoulder who serves his own image of Christ created by his religious mind.
I am a Pastor of a church bro, I know how authority is supposed to work. My authority is only effective in the church I’m a pastor of . . .I don’t go to another’s church and tell them they need to live up to my standards . . . so your attempt to judge me ends here. You were wrong on your response to me in assuming that I’m seeking attention or acceptance from others . .and your bitter message here is just as defective. Your quote on Matthew . .and any other passage for that matter . . .is again your attempt to enforce your interpretation on me . . .you misuse Scripture when you do this . . .I’m not asking you for advice or correction . . .so why do you assume that I have?
And I think that God “does” want the bride to know his nature . .but I don’t think he chooses wife beaters to be the ones to assume that role . . .I think He can do just fine with the Spirit that is in them without the interference and distraction of the fly-by-night attitudes of self-proclaiming authorities.
As far as I’m concerned, you’ve only proven that my prediction of you getting kicked off from Tent is true. You seem to thrive on rejection. To be painfully honest with you, you’re the type of people that I warn the church to be aware of. But I’m sure you do the same with me. Why preach on the liberty, freedom and intimacy with Christ, when you get so much more response and attention by preaching how sinful everyone (excluding yourself of course) is and how wrong they are and must repent . . .that is an Old Covenant message . . .it has been rooted up and replaced in Grace, lathered in Mercy and applied in Love. Christ came and planted resurrection life . . .you no longer need to continue to preach hell and death.
I’m doing my best not to return a response with the same vinegar that you sent me . . . still needing to flesh some things out in that area as you can see . .but all you’ve inspired in me with your post on tent, your web site, and your message to me is hostility. Not a trait Jesus encouraged us to exercise in each other. I never said God doesn’t send messengers . . I simply said that God doesn’t need wife beaters to deliver judgment on his bride. God didn’t send his son to condemn the world . .so why are you so convinced that he sent you to do it?
My response I wrote on Tent . . .
Ah ha . . . I do believe you’re right . . .
Nathan, you ought to seek to please God, not men. Entertaining men in the Name of Christ is treachery against God. You need to repent.
So my comment on him being silenced would then be perceived by him more a feather in his cap . . .that comment provoked this response? That I seek to please men? Is he kidding me???
Dude, I understand that we’re to give each other the benefit of the doubt and I for one try not to be quick to shoot off a quick, knee-jerk response. But basically what he’s doing with his website now is armchair quarterbacking. He knows nothing of who I am . .if he did, the cheap shot of accusing me of trying to please men would never have been considered, let alone uttered . ..so do this . . .
Tell your friend that I am a pastor of a denominational church that is a self-proclaimed heretic. I make no bones about it. I know where I stand and I don’t disagree with all of their decrees, but I do know that they disagree with most of mine. And I’m sure the time will come when I will be a pastor of the same flock, just in a different building with a different label. But for now . . .if I were out to please men . . .I would definitely not be the heretic I just confessed that I am. I would not have been open to consider that the traditional church just may be the percentage that has allowed another gospel to infiltrate in it’s sanctuaries.
I do not condemn the church or anyone. I don’t believe that is my position or responsibility. Nor do I order others their need to repent . . .as your friend has again done with me. The Holy Ghost that he assumes is in him, I believe is in me . .and I don’t think the role of conviction should come from any man to any other man . .only through the spirit. . .he’s much more capable of bringing me into a place of repentance than any man.
Sometimes I wonder just how mature we really are. I’m pretty sure, we’re no where near as mature as we “think” we are. I’m sure God is not at all pleased with the attitudes from either side of this issue when we begin the mudslinging. For me, putting the other first, would be to see the reasoning as to why a person chose to act a certain way . . .give them some grace on the matter . . .but the quick-draw judgments just are not to be found in Scripture that so many use as their ammunition.
At what point in our lives do we allow our weapons to be turned into plowshares?
Nathan
Victor’s reply:
Nathan, Victor Hafichuk here, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Of you, a self-proclaimed pastor, is it written:
“To give an answer before hearing is a foolish thing and a cause of shame” (Proverbs 18:13 BBE).
If you had investigated our site, red our testimonies and other offerings there, familiarizing yourself in advance with those to whom you speak, you would not and could not say the things you say to us. But of course, you did not understand what we were saying at the Tentmaker Forum, so how could you understand anything you might read at our site?
Your letter and entries are riddled with error, almost sentence by sentence and phrase by phrase. There is not a word that comes forth from your mouth of any value in God’s sight. You are not a real Christian, a Biblical one, that is.
While I could address you generally, I chose to address you point by point as we go through your letter. I will show you that you are not a true believer, much less a pastor appointed of God to feed and care for His sheep. Those who follow you are not the Lord’s sheep, even as you are nothing more than a self-serving individual who only presumes to have something to do with the Lord Jesus Christ, but who is fully antiChrist in all his thoughts, words, and ways. I will prove all this to you and you will not believe, of course, because of being who I say you are. Others may believe and understand, however; whether before or after, it does not matter.
I also do this primarily for the Lord’s sake because He has sent me (as well as others) to speak truth, to reprove the works of darkness, and to convince the ungodly of all their ungodly words and ways, even as Enoch prophesied would happen, as Jude quotes him. That day is here, and you are in all wickedness; we will prove it.
You assume assumptions we have not assumed. You say to us, “but you assume that we’re all doomed for destruction.” You won’t find us saying that in our correspondence with you, at least not the way you suggest.
It is not only for your sake, in rebuke, that I write, but for that of others, for their instruction, that they might rejoice in God, their Savior. They will discover that He was with them, showing them the Way before we were sent to speak. They will see that He is with them now, confirming their steps, as they are brought out of their desolation and darkness. Many are in that abject darkness with you, which you believe to be at least a shade of light. Indeed, as the Lord has said:
“The light of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is sound, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is evil, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore take heed that the light in you is not darkness” (Luke 11:34-35 MKJV).
He has said: “Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it. Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13-14 MKJV).
Of course, the Universalists of a certain erroneous bent will say, “Gate? What gate? Who cares about gates? It’s done! We’re all in.”
Matthew 7:21-23 MKJV
(21) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
(22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
(23) And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
These are truths most Universalists fail to accept and comprehend, choosing instead to believe lies and to take the goods without paying for them.
Jesus Christ also said:
Matthew 7:15-18 MKJV
(15) Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(16) You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
(17) Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
And: “Therefore by their fruits you shall know them” (Matthew 7:20 MKJV).
You are a false pastor, a member and leader of a cult, no less, an organization of men’s works, contrary to God, His Church, and His Kingdom, of which we are members in His glorious standing. I will expose your fruits herein, thus fulfilling these words the Lord spoke:
“Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Matthew 7:19 MKJV).
We will begin with your words:
“Good grief dude . . .you’re stuff wreaks of law and death.”
“Good grief ‘dude’”? Is this the talk of a shepherd of God, whether to the believing or unbelieving? Are you not of the world, speaking in the same spirit and manner? Still, we can agree with your words somewhat, but not as you suppose or mean:
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 MSG
(15) Because of Christ, we give off a sweet scent rising to God, which is recognized by those on the way of salvation–an aroma redolent with life.
(16) But those on the way to destruction treat us more like the stench from a rotting corpse. This is a terrific responsibility. Is anyone competent to take it on?
(17) No–but at least we don’t take God’s Word, water It down, and then take It to the streets to sell It cheap. We stand in Christ’s presence when we speak; God looks us in the face. We get what we say straight from God and say it as honestly as we can.
But you aren’t able to tell that which is good and that which is evil in God’s sight, are you? As the carnally unpleasant, yet God-ordained, burnt sacrifices offered up by a faithful Levitical priesthood were a sweet smelling savor to the Lord, Who does not change, so our sacrifices now, which are pleasing to Him, are a putrid stench to you who are yet dead in your sins.
You make this claim in judgment of us: “You’re justification that God has ‘you’ speak your interpretations of God’s word is based in Old Testament.”
How so? You don’t say. But are you aware that almost all, if not all, of the New Testament is based in Old Testament? We could quote literally hundreds of verses in the New Testament that are referenced in the Old, spoken by almost every writer in the New, certainly the main writers such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Jude, James, and Paul. So what are you saying? You don’t know, do you?
You say that the cross removes judgment and establishes grace. Is that so? Let me take a “base” from the Old Testament, as mentioned in the New, and see if judgment is removed. First of all, I think you will agree that the Church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost, or am I wrong in assuming you believe so? The Church began after the cross and the resurrection and ascension (Am I right? Just say if I am not). Now let’s tie that in with your view of judgment removed:
“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God [V – which is the Church, right?]: and if it first begin at us [V – His Body, the Church], what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” (1 Peter 4:17 KJV)
So what do you make of that, pastor? Did the cross maybe fail to do away with judgment in your estimation? Or are you mistaken? Let’s go on to two or more witnesses to establish a matter and not depend on proof texts, much less on opinion, as do you, while presuming to be in a position to feed the flock of God. Now here come the saints, after the cross:
“And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him” (Jude 1:14-15 MKJV).
“And, O man, the one judging those who do such things, and practice them, do you think this, that you shall escape the judgment of God?” (Romans 2:3 MKJV)
To whom does the apostle speak? Is the Bible for believers or for unbelievers? To unbelievers, the Bible is a dead, is a dead, is a dead book, but to those alive in Christ, though they may err, they know the Bible to be the Word of God and true altogether, given Life by Him as He wills. Do these words not pertain to believers as well as to all men?
Paul warns the saints:
“Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God. So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves” (Romans 13:1-2 MKJV).
So just what is the perspective you piously claim to keep, Nathan? Shall we have more on judgment after the cross? Let’s do:
“But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.’ So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God” (Romans 14:10-12 MKJV).
Am I now judging my brother according to you, Nathan, or are you now standing before the judgment seat of Christ?
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Corinthians 5:10 MKJV).
You must answer for your words now, Pastor Loehr.
“Saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him Who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters” (Revelation 14:7 MKJV).
And what of Ananias and Sapphira? Was that grace or judgment that fell on them after the cross?
Nathan, “dude,” what Bible version do you have? Or do you deliberately lie to us when claiming to be a pastor in a denomination (not that pastors in denominations know a lot)?
How foolish are the words from your mouth! You say, “You assume you have authority without establishing relationship.” Do you really think that when the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, they will first “establish relationship” with sinners before they have the right to speak? What kind of relationship did the prophets establish with the people to whom God sent them? They must have sorely failed the grade of establishing relationship, because the people persecuted and killed them.
Just where does a parent receive authority to discipline a child? Is it from the child, or is it from God? Did Paul and Silas establish a relationship with the Philippian jailer before preaching the gospel to him and his household, or Peter with Cornelius and his house, or Philip with the eunuch? You are wise in your own eyes, Nathan, but not at all wise before the One you presume to represent.
They came to Jesus demanding by whose authority He did that which He did. And was He supposed to get His authority from them by establishing relationship, or did He receive authority from above, as was also the case with His disciples as, for example, when Peter and John went forth preaching by God’s authority, contrary to the earthly authorities. What was Peter’s answer to those with whom he failed to establish relationship?
“And bringing them, they stood in the Sanhedrin. And the high priest asked them, saying, Did we not strictly command you that you not teach in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring this man’s blood on us. And Peter and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:27-29 MKJV).
No, presumptive pastor, we have no authority to speak the Word of God but from Him. And if you know what is good for you, you will listen; otherwise, bad times come for you and are already there, are they not, Nathan? Sure they are. By His grace, we know our business to which our Father has committed us and for which He, beforehand, has prepared us. And you are playing games. Let’s go on.
I will skip over several of the words in your letter, which also manifest the darkness of your soul, but I will address others:
“You tell me that I am right that it’s not our business to enforce personal standards on others . . .and then you flip around and tell me that I still have need of repentance.”
One, we are not enforcing our personal standards on anyone. We preach the Truth from Him, declaring His will and HIS standard, not our own. We do call you to repentance because God clearly tells us that you are yet in your sins, stumbling and fumbling like a blind drunk in a strange, garbage-strewn, dark alley.
Now if we can see and you can’t, and we are sober and you aren’t, and we know the territory and you don’t, then will you condemn us for taking hold of the drunk before he utterly destroys himself or does harm to someone? Is it not you who are “judging,” Nathan?
But your problem is that you think you see, so we must first get you over that hump before we can persuade you that you need help and plenty of it – supernatural help, because until now, you have relied on man’s wisdom, not God’s, and man’s wisdom is foolishness with God and destroys him. So we are here telling you that you are destroying yourself and others with you. Behold the lies we prove you tell!
Did John the Immerser establish relationship in order to earn the authority to speak to the multitudes that came out to see him? Or did he enforce personal standards on them by telling them they needed to repent, and not only so, but that they also needed to prove repentance by bringing forth fruits?
Luke 3:7-9 MKJV
(7) Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(8) Therefore bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
(9) And now also the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
I don’t think “Pastor Nathan” would introduce himself that way, would he? And he wouldn’t come anywhere near such a monster that would so neglect to “establish relationship,” and “lack grace in his tone or message,” or would “enforce personal standards.” Am I right, pastor? Am I being a little sarcastic with you? Can you humble yourself and handle it, or will you be offended, vomit on us as you do, and turn back to the bottle?
Permit me to preempt gainsayers now: “But John represented the Law, the dispensation before the cross!” such as you cry. But what do the Scriptures declare as John’s inspirational source? Of him it is prophesied:
“For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall neither drink wine nor strong drink. And he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb” (Luke 1:15 MKJV).
So was it the Spirit of Law or the Spirit of grace that inspired him? Let’s see:
“John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from Heaven” (John 3:27 KJV).
We think that is grace. Don’t you? And we believe John well understood so. It took grace to birth him of an aged mother, to raise him up in the wilderness, to send him forth to introduce the Son of God, no less, and to cause him to speak those words in which you, my friend, would find little semblance of man’s notion of grace.
You write, “I sense you patronize those to whom you still want to push your agenda on because that’s all it seems you’re doing here,” and, “…your bitter message here is just as defective. Your quote on Matthew . .and any other passage for that matter . . .is again your attempt to enforce your interpretation on me.”
Is that a bit of grace lacking there in your speculation, opinion, and judgment of us after the appearance coming forth from you? We push and enforce nothing, and we have no agenda, Nathan, other than to do the job we are sent by God to do, and while we know what you are doing, at best you can only evilly surmise about us.
Astounding words now come to prove your entire ignorance of God, of His ways, and of the work of His servants:
“If I need to repent, I will rely on the Holy Spirit to prompt me, not some unknown guy with a chip on his shoulder who serves his own image of Christ created by his religious mind.”
You mean like John the Immerser or Jeremiah or Jonah at Nineveh, Nathan? Or how about Elijah, who lopped off 450 heads in one day, or Elisha, who cursed a group of young people mocking, who were consequently mauled by two she bears?
“Old Testament,” you say? Then how about New Testament, which, unfortunately for you and your repugnance for the Law of God, is based in the Old:
Revelation 2:19-23 MKJV
(19) I know your works and love and service and faith and your patience, and your works; and the last to be more than the first.
(20) But I have a few things against you because you allow that woman Jezebel to teach, she saying herself to be a prophetess, and to cause My servants to go astray, and to commit fornication, and to eat idol-sacrifices.
(21) And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent.
(22) Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds.
(23) And I will kill her children with death. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.
You falsely accuse and speak in great and judgmental ignorance to say we speak from our own minds, but if we do, how is it that while our minds are in agreement with the Word of God, your words fail horribly to be in tune with the Scriptures? So who are you to judge, and who should take what you say seriously?
You suggest you will rely on the Holy Spirit, Who comes in the Name of Jesus Christ, and refuse to receive us who come in His Name, as though you are justified to reject a chosen vessel by which His Spirit comes. Yet Jesus said, “He that receives you receives Me and he that rejects you rejects Me.” “Pastor,” you are a lying rebel, are you not? Admit it.
Incidentally, Nathan, would you like to read, Does God Speak Only Gentle Words?
You go on to say, “I am a Pastor of a church bro, I know how authority is supposed to work.” We have already discussed authority, however, and how it comes, haven’t we, and you are wrong, rebelliously, ignorantly wrong. What you speak of is the authority of usurpatious men, building their own kingdoms in the Name of God on foundations of sand, if not manure, and you say you know how authority is supposed to work?
Our Authority you know nothing of; it is not the authority of vain children of darkness doing their own thing. That is why men will not allow you to exercise authority in their designated territories that they have marked out and established for themselves. But God goes where He wills, He sends His servants where He wills, and nobody has the right to question Him as did those who, in their territory of presumptuous authority, demanded credentials like yours of Him:
Matthew 21:23-27 MKJV
(23) And when He had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him as He was teaching, and said, By what authority do you do these things? And who gave you this authority?
(24) And Jesus answered and said to them, I will also ask you one thing; which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
(25) The baptism of John, where was it from? From Heaven or from men? And they reasoned within themselves, saying, If we shall say, From Heaven, He will say to us, Why then did you not believe him?
(26) But if we shall say, From men, we fear the people; for all consider John as a prophet.
(27) And they answered Jesus and said, We cannot tell. And He said to them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
But here, we tell you, and you have nothing to say about it.
You say to us, “you misuse Scripture when you do this….” But who is it that misuses Scripture, as we prove to you? And who, then, are you to judge us and how we use Scripture?
You say, “I’m not asking you for advice or correction . . .so why do you assume that I have?”
Why would you assume we assume you asked? Have you personally and directly asked God for advice or correction? If so, He has answered. Here we are, sent of Him. But if you haven’t asked for it, should He wait until you do, or should He give you grace (unmerited favor) and send you those who, in His Name and power and authority, will speak to you for your sake that you might not destroy yourself?
You, however, don’t strike us as someone who would earnestly seek after God for advice or correction for the right reasons. On the contrary, you carry yourself as one who has far more than he needs, when the truth is the other way around.
Of God and of us, you say, “I think He can do just fine with the Spirit that is in them without the interference and distraction of the fly-by-night attitudes of self-proclaiming authorities.”
Is that more of your grace, Nathan? But we are not proclaiming ourselves as something we are not, as you falsely accuse by the spirit in you. We have told you from where our authority comes, that being not of men but of Heaven. Therefore, we know that the spirit that is in you is one other than that of God.
Every word out of your mouth is an idle one, and not only idle, but ugly, “pastor.” You say our attitudes are “fly-by-night”? Can you define that? We have made ourselves fully public, fully identified, and fully accessible to those worthy, without partisanship, speaking the truth for which any day we can be killed; millions out there are more than willing to do so, many even eager.
We have been on the internet for several years, several of us working more than full time, and we charge nothing. We are not hirelings who work for a salary as determined by the sheep. We are God’s laborers and He pays us very well, more than any mega church or network of mega churches ever could.
By God’s grace and mercy, you will find none of The True Marks of a Cult with us. But how many will we find with one who is hired by, and serves, a man-made organization, founded by a harlot, no less? Even her personal story has the classic markings of “fly-by-night.” Nathan, you are a hypocrite, liar, and false accuser, provenly so.
You say, “To be painfully honest with you, you’re the type of people that I warn the church to be aware of.” How gracious of you! This is not pain to us, Nathan; we count it joy to suffer despite for His Name’s sake. But it turns to pain for you and for those you influence; it is painful to fall into a ditch and to have it on your conscience in the end that you have done evil to the One Who shed His blood for you, offending those whom you have prevented from entering the Kingdom, refusing to enter yourself.
You say, “But I’m sure you do the same with me.” Yes, we do warn others of such as you, and that is why I write you now and why we have written The True Marks of a Cult and much more.
You write, “Why preach on the liberty, freedom and intimacy with Christ, when you get so much more response and attention by preaching how sinful everyone (excluding yourself of course) is and how wrong they are and must repent . . .that is an Old Covenant message . . .it has been rooted up and replaced in Grace, lathered in Mercy and applied in Love. Christ came and planted resurrection life . . .you no longer need to continue to preach hell and death.”
You have a problem with our preaching repentance, do you? You mean it is wrong to do so after the cross, Nathan, and after the Holy Spirit was given, such as in this instance?:
Acts 2:38-40 KJV
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Or here?: “Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19 KJV).
Or here?: Acts 8:22-23 MKJV
(22) Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
(23) For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.
Or here?: Acts 17:30 MKJV
(30) Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent.
Or here?: Acts 26:20 MKJV
(20) But to those first in Damascus, and Jerusalem, and to all the country of Judea, and to the nations, I made known the command to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
So perhaps you might argue that repentance is only to be preached to the unconverted? Well, you are unconverted, Nathan, as are those who empathize with you at the Tentmaker Forum, and many others. But here are examples of some who were converted and still needed to hear:
“Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent” (Revelation 2:5 MKJV).
“Repent! But if not I will come to you quickly, and will fight with them by the sword of My mouth” (Revelation 2:16 MKJV).
What do you say about those verses, Universalist with scales of justice and righteousness askew?
“And I gave her time that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent. Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death. …” (Revelation 2:21-23)
Oh my! There’s Jesus preaching death and hell! Which Jesus is this now? Is it Nathan’s or ours? Is it the One of Whom the Bible testifies, or is it the one men have invented so they can continue in their whoredoms, fornications, and masturbations? You tell me which it is, you who say there is no more need of preaching repentance, death, and hell. Here is what you will find out in due time:
“And all the churches will know that I am He Who searches the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works” (Revelation 2:21-23 MKJV).
Will you escape with your philosophy, Nathan? We know otherwise, and so we preach.
“Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you” (Revelation 3:3 MKJV).
Has He not now come upon you as a thief, Nathan?
“And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the Name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory” (Revelation 16:9 MKJV).
“And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds” (Revelation 16:11 MKJV).
Face it, “Pastor,” you really don’t know a thing about God or the Bible, do you? All you have is deceit and vain philosophy, concoctions of men who refuse to repent. Is that not so? They and you prefer to live in Satan’s “La La Land,” which is Hell and Death, enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season until you are destroyed by “grace” and “love,” receiving the wages you so richly deserve.
Nevertheless, we do not preach only hell and death, as you foolishly surmise, but we do preach, as did Jesus and His disciples, to those who are dead and in hell, as I do even now, so that they might repent and be delivered.
I rebuke you for your lies, presumption, evil surmisings, pretense, false accusations, foolish teachings, and example.
“Get behind Me, Satan: you are an offence to Me: for you savour not the things that are of God, but those that are of men” (Matthew 16:23 KJV).
In this letter, I have already proven you wrong on your bullshit about grace; I have also exposed your alleged grace and love. Where in the Scriptures would anyone but a devil find such understanding as yours? Try reading False Love – Satan’s Last Stronghold, and Law and Grace.
You write of us: “I simply said that God doesn’t need wife beaters to deliver judgment on his bride.” One, we have clearly, Scripturally shown you where judgment on His Bride is very necessary; two, how dare you, with your ministry of gracious lips, compare His servants to wife beaters; and three, you are not of His Bride, Nathan.
You say, and rightly so (in the letter) but satanically in the spirit and motive: “God didn’t send his son to condemn the world.” Indeed, He did not, neither do we condemn it, except in the way that Noah did so; but He did say that those who do not believe are condemned already:
John 3:18-21 MKJV
(18) He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
(21) But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.
We have not brought condemnation, but we have made it known to you that you are condemned. The doctor that delivers the diagnosis of terminal cancer did not bring the disease, Nathan.
In another entry on Tentmaker, you say something remarkable in light of all I just pointed out to you: “I for one try not to be quick to shoot off a quick, knee-jerk response.” Wow! Blind and contradictory, are you, Nathan?
You go on, speaking of my brother in ministry, Paul, or me: “He knows nothing of who I am . .if he did, the cheap shot of accusing me of trying to please men would never have been considered, let alone uttered….”
No, Nathan, you are so wrong. We know plenty about you, as revealed from above, and we have every right and duty to speak. As it says in the Scriptures, of which you are so very ignorant and void of Their Power:
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 MKJV
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Have you red this letter to you, “Pastor” Nathan? Are you ready to crawl into a hole? If you are, that would be a good sign, really. Such a reaction would seem to have much more hope than one you have had so far, without cause or substance.
You proudly boast of your status in this world before men: “Tell your friend that I am a pastor of a denominational church that is a self-proclaimed heretic. I make no bones about it. I know where I stand….”
We are also known far and wide as heretics, but not before God. We solemnly tell you that you do not know where you stand, leastways not with God. We are here to tell you that while you may proclaim yourself a heretic that is acceptable to some men, you are an unacceptable heretic to God. Yours is a feigned faith and love, Nathan, though the world may love you for it.
We know your heart, as the Scriptures teach, contrary to your foolish notion that men of God cannot know another man’s heart. You say, “But for now . . .if I were out to please men . . .I would definitely not be the heretic I just confessed that I am.”
You define and confess yourself a heretic because you are a man pleaser and not because you are not. How’s that? Honestly consider it, Nathan, if you care or dare. I don’t see that you do either. That is also a reading of your heart, a discerning of your spirit by the Spirit of God in me, though I don’t believe it takes spiritual discernment to see it.
As with everything else coming forth from you, this is also false: “I do not condemn the church or anyone.” If you are a heretic in the eyes of “the church,” then what is this church that you do not condemn? Is not a heretic one who departs in disagreement from “the church”? But we, Paul and I, and those with us, are the Church of Christ, His Body, and if you don’t condemn us, then we do not understand English in the same way.
Did you not say, “To be painfully honest with you, you’re the type of people that I warn the church to be aware of”? If that is not condemnation, what is, “Pastor” Nathan?
But you are not the Church of God and never were. What you have is a kingdom of men, a gathering of blind fools, with a blind fool leading. But are we to leave you alone, as the Lord once advised His disciples? No, not this time – this time we speak, that all may read and fear. He directs us, even as Enoch prophesied.
You confess yourself an unbeliever almost directly this time: “The Holy Ghost that he assumes is in him, I believe is in me….” Not that we need this evidence, but the way you use the words, “I believe,” means you are not in full conviction that you have God’s Spirit.
If you did have His Spirit, you would boldly, with full conviction, be able to say, “He is in me,” but you don’t have what you would like to claim to have. You have nothing of the Lord, Nathan, and I show it to you in many ways. This, contrary to your proud and angry, man pleasing spirit, is not to condemn, but to inform and to warn, as is fitting in God’s sight. If I censure you, it is for good, not that you know or believe it, but one day, you will.
You ask, “At what point in our lives do we allow our weapons to be turned into plowshares?” We ask you, “At what point in your life will you allow yourself to perceive the Sword of the Lord we wield for what it is – a plowshare?”
You write, with professed levity: “I find it amusing that Aimee Semple McPherson is one of them [one we find a false teacher] .she happens to be the founder of the denomination I am a part of . . .his beef with her is that she is a woman in an authoritive position”
First, if you knew the Lord, you would not be there; second, she is not a false teacher simply or only because having exercised authority over men, which Paul condemned in his words to the Corinthians and to Timothy. Aimee was a floozy, a spiritual sensationalist and adulteress, a showgirl, a money grubber, a phony, and those who cannot perceive her as such are blind, as you, not having an eye that is single.
You write, “Joyce Meyer on his list [of false teachers] as well . .Billy Grahm . .Benny Hinn . . a bunch of them on there that apparently are going to hell?”
We did not say they were going to hell. They are there now, twice the children of hell their predecessors or mentors were. Billy Graham’s end is a manifestly miserable one, and you will see the same or worse for the liar and thief, Hinn, a very wicked man.
The Day of the Lord has come, and the Stone has ground you to powder, Nathan. Only children of light are not ignorant of these things. Can you, will you, repent?
Victor Hafichuk
Nathan’s response:
I read about 10 lines of your response . . . then had to quit because this light you are convinced you have is reproducing nothing but death in others . . .
Have a great day.
Victor’s reply:
We know whereof we speak, Nathan, and we answer you as does He:
“Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father Who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word” (John 8:54-55 MKJV).
Death is exactly what you need, by the cross, which is anathema to you and those who agree with you.
Victor
Nathan’s reply:
If you knew of what you speak, then your intent would not to be to induce death, but to illuminate life . . . it is not your responsibility to bring death to anyone. As I said in my original message to you . .Jesus didn’t condemn . . .what makes you think you can? I work out my own salvation . . . it’s a “personal” experience . . .my salvation is not based on your standards . . . yet you still assume you have the right to enforce them. You want to really convince me? Then illuminate light . . .pointing out the darkness in others only reinforces what the enemy desires . . .
Victor’s response:
The answers to these comments and questions are all in the letter I sent you, with our position proven of God, which letter you have ignorantly and arrogantly dismissed. So why bother repeating your comments and questions as though they were not answered? If you think dialogue should go only one way, from you, and you won’t listen, then go your way and destroy yourself, Nathan.
Paul’s reply:
Nathan, how confused you are while presuming to have understanding! By the Nature of God, Light cannot help but be a reproof of darkness:
“But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the Light, for whatever makes manifest is Light” (Ephesians 5:13 MKJV).
You know nothing of our intent or what we do. How can you, when you are manifestly in darkness? You cannot be in the Light when you are found denying God’s intrinsic and unalterable Nature. So is the Scripture fulfilled:
“And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not apprehend it” (John 1:5 EMTV).
Victor’s reply:
He writhes and snarls, gnashing his teeth as he lays in his dark gutter, cursing the one who tries to lift him up out of his vomit and squalor.
Wretched fellow, presuming to lead others, as though he is better off than they. What arrogance! What ignorance! What presumption! What delusion!
And while he presumes to be fit to lead, he refuses to be led, thinking himself above the need for it.
Nathan, you know nothing at all of the Light of all men, and you refuse to know.
Nathan’s reply:
See . .that’s why you get the responses you get . . .all you’re doing is judging others . .. you judge me and doom me to hell . . .Just because I disagree with how you approach things has nothing to do with me manifestly being in darkness . . .You’re still flesh yourself . ..you’re not going to always be right either, so I maintain my ability to disagree with you.
I never said the light can not reproof darkness . . .but I believe that the purpose of the light in me is to cast out the darkness in me . ..not in others . . .otherwise it’s not a personal relationship.
Either way, it’s clear that we’re not going to agree . .so save your emails for someone who will read them . . .because after this last response to you, I’m just going to delete them from here on out.
Our reply:
There is no light in you, Nathan; there never was. You worship another Jesus.
Victor Hafichuk