"Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall exclude and mock you, and throw out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake" (Luke 6:22).
A moderator at Tentmaker, perplexed by our teachings, posted about them on the forum to get some feedback from his companions. Being made aware of this, who better to explain and to counter the misinterpretations and false reports that followed than the authors themselves? (See The Deadly Error of the Universalists for background on the specific topic under discussion.)
Here are excerpts from a letter to them from a fellow named Rodger and their replies to him. At issue was apparently an article/tract "The Path of Truth" had put out, entitled "The Deadly Error of the Universalist–The Doctrine of Universal Salvation Is Not Salvation". In it, they take on Charles Slagle and Gary Amirault, among others (I’d guess they would include pretty much all of us here). I’ve got my own thoughts, but what’s your take on these guys and this "ministry"?
Excerpts from the website, The Path of Truth; Victor Hafichuck and Paul Cohen
"To blame a doctrine or any external thing is to fall short of complete repentance and peace. While you preach the reconciliation of all things (a true doctrine) and the fallacy of eternal damnation (also true)…."
"When you have exhausted yourself in searching for fulfillment and finding none, and realize you still lack, it may be your time for God to reveal Himself to you. Jesus Christ (Yehoshuah HaMashiach/Yeshua/Yahweh), the Creator, and He only, can fill your void."
"The main point of ‘The Deadly Error of the Universalists’ is that they have perverted the gospel, leaving out the vital element of the cross, which is not just a historical fact indicating the salvation of all, but is experienced in the here and now, as Jesus spoke of taking up one’s cross to follow Him. He said that was the only way to follow Him, in fact. You can find that in the Bible.
The reason you do not understand or know how to respond to this is because you lack it yourself. You are not saved. The work has been done, yes. No man could do it, yes. We rejoice to know it, yes. But not all have entered into the covenant of His blood. You have not entered into the covenant. That is why we labor in these things, as by the Lord, because He is yet working to that end."
"The ‘prophecy’ he [Charles Slagle] gave is a lie, from his own carnal mind that impersonates God. The man does not know God. If he did, he would not prophesy falsely."
"We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of ‘Tentmaker,’ and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God, although truths they happen to preach will serve others well if they receive them, as apparently with you."
"You ask us about Ray Prinzing. In my spiritual journey in the ’70s and ’80s, I enquired of the Lord concerning many men and organizations (churches), starting with Billy Graham immediately after we received the Spirit of God. He has been faithful to answer on all matters, Rodger. Yes, Ray Prinzing too is not a genuine servant of God. I too heard his tapes, and I too can testify that he has preached truths, but the Lord revealed to me that he was very religious, steeped in his own righteousness, stubborn in all his ways (that is why he suffered so many tragedies and hardships, contrary to God’s promises of Deuteronomy 28 and this one):"
"Nevertheless, we do not condemn you. We do speak as God, because we are sent of Him, and speak that which He has revealed to us. You are answering to Him even as we speak, Rodger."
I am left asking why they do not seem to recognise in the word of God, that God has shut up all in disobedience that he may show Mercy to all.
Different degrees of disobedience…have they recognised that ?
It does seem as if they are Judging others as well….and therfore will be Judged themselves….
Surely our place is to announce the Good News, and not Judge others over it…?
To pronounce a person "unsaved" to the world seems like an anti-Christ thing to do. This is the kind of thing you find in fundamentalist churches that thrive in fear and using fear to control others. In other words, they demonize their brothers. I too think they will be judged in the manner they have been judging.
Tony N. wrote:
Jabcat, I went to that web site and copied this which they state:
"But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
Their error is this: The Universalists disregard the God-ordained principles and requirements by which one gets to the place of which they preach, which is salvation and peace with God and man. Therefore they never get there themselves, and neither do their listeners who follow them.
How do the Universalists disregard God’s ordained principles and ways? In a nutshell, they preach that since God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and the work was finished on the cross, it is only a matter of mentally assenting to this fact that will automatically usher one into the reality and victory of spiritual life of the Lord Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ, which represents the God-ordained personal requirements by which we die to the world and are raised again by His resurrection life to truly have those things, is thereby eliminated.
Without the personal cross there is no victory or resurrection to life, here or in the next world. Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a pearl of great price, for which a man sold all that he had. There is a cost of admission. The gospel preached by the Universalists is one of bloodless identification with Christ, which is not possible. (end of quote)
What I find interesting is that they quote Galatians 1:8 above, yet they are guilty of doing the very think Paul warned against in that passage. They are bringing a different gospel beside the one Paul brought to the nations.
We are not saved by works. We are not saved by "persevering to the end" as the Circumcision believers must do.
Also, Paul always connects Christ’s obedience to the cross, His death, His blood to the saving of all mankind. It is based upon what Christ has accomplished, not what we accomplish. Look at Romans 5:18,19, Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6 and see how Paul always links what Christ did to the salvation of all. He never links it to what we do.
That is Paul’s gospel. The Galatians were mixing works of the law with Paul’s gospel. That was not Paul’s gospel. The people quoted above by me and you are doing what the Galatians were doing. Hence, they are the ones guilty of bringing a different gospel.
I don’t condemn them even should they condemn us. They just are not at the level of maturity yet which God is bringing every believer to eventually.
But we should "let them be anathema," which is to say just let them be devoted to their destructive ways.
I’m left wondering what Charles Slagle’s prophecy was. Anybody know?
I understand what they’re saying about blood covenant and there being a type works to accomplish in relation to the cross we are to bear, so I can’t fault that observation, because that is what He has shown me too. Faith without works is dead.
The rest of it is coming through a spirit of condemnation, obviously, which is difficult for me to even read, because it grieves my Spirit. My 2 cents. Blessings….
There used to be a commercial campaign in the United States that sorta fits these accusations against Gary and Charlie. I’m not sure if there were ever any international equivalents to these commercials, so sorry to anybody that can’t relate. Then again just about everything’s on YouTube that you can’t even imagine would be on there, so who knows? One phrase comes to mind, from years ago:
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE…
Paul Hazelwood wrote:
Actually this is something I had wondered about along the lines of sodom and babylon. In Ezekiel 16 where it says Sodom has done wrong but not as much as the mother and daughters (mother whore and harlot daughters)
The system of religion is mainly what it is talking about (to me). We have Christendom who teaches Gods love as a righteousness that will keep someone in a state of hopelessness for all eternity.
We have the beliefs that love but center more on self. We have the biblical beliefs of all saved, but then continually try to pry and debate one another to death for the "right" way that God will save everyone.
I’ve had enough, lol. This past week has been a real eye opener for me.
Gods love is sufficient for all, if thats not good enough, then we’re wasting our time bothering to care.
lol, this is creepy, my pastor talk and preach about this last sunday on galatians 1:8, when I read this, I get goosebump, is the lord speaking through me like a foreshadow?
Yes I read the website, they just read only what they used to preach or taught by past preacher with the same verse over and over and over, they alyway used context over context and the pracher favorite’s motto: "because the bible said so!" (I hate that lol, I do love the bible but when they said "the bible said so, you must do this or God is not happy" is something making me angry, not at God, but at people, they treating God like he can’t help us if we don’t help ourselve, God can do anything, nothing is impossible to God, just like matthew 19:26 said so!
Paul is the preacher right? How come Paul didn’t go around differant locations preaching "hell" or "if you don’t please the lord, you will get burn!"
the preacher are doing the oppsitie of what Paul doing, even peter and tim didn’t preach hellfire! So why our preacher preached hellfire today? was it because paul and peter are not Jesus but Jesus mention hell and preacher listen to him more than paul because Jesus is the real king, not paul but they listen to paul to do good and to jesus? it very confusing
I just tired of preacher like Billy, Pat and others, they are filthy rich people and lived longer than us lol.
Paul Hazelwood: "I’ve had enough, lol. This past week has been a real eye opener for me."
Paul, what did you mean by this statement?
I think these believers just haven’t been shown all the truth yet and neither have we. We are all wrong on certain points.
My personal opinion… and that doesn’t mean it is always right,… is:
We all only know what the Lord has given us. We shouldn’t judge others no matter what they believe. If you look at every denomination, each one of them has some truth. I have learned from a few of them myself.
We should just pray for ourselves and others that God would give us all wisdom and understanding to live a peaceful life while we are here. LOVE is the main ingredient.
Good observations, Tony.
Thumbs up to CHB.
Paul Hazelwood wrote, answering CHB:
If we are not to judge, then don’t judge me.
Paul and Victor’s reply to all:
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:2 MKJV).
As the authors of the materials you are discussing, it might be helpful to have some clarification and correction of the misperceptions and ignorance voiced here.
Jabcat, you indicated you did not understand the quotes you provided. Ask away, and we will answer you, Lord willing. Why remain in the dark?
SpiritDriven, you write: "I am left asking why they do not seem to recognise in the word of God, that God has shut up all in disobedience that he may show Mercy to all."
It may seem that way to you, but that is the basis of why we speak, bringing the Truth to all men. "If the dead rise not, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" (1 Corinthians 15:32).
You ask: "Different degrees of disobedience…have they recognised that?"
Absolutely: "And that servant who knew his lord’s will and did not prepare, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Luke 12:47-48 MKJV).
You continue: "It does seem as if they are Judging others as well….and therfore will be Judged themselves…."
Have you not known or realized that those who are judged by God ("judgment begins at the House of God") serve to judge others?
"Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother’s eye" (Matthew 7:5 MKJV).
You conclude: "Surely our place is to announce the Good News, and not Judge others over it…?"
It is only our place to do what God calls us and prepares us to do. It was in Moses’ heart to liberate his brethren, but first he had to flee for his life and spend time in the wilderness. At the appointed time, God called Moses to perform His will, and Moses set up 70 elders to help him judge Israel. So it is appointed for those whom God chooses.
As for judging, the Lord is not against it, as many suppose; He is against the wrong kind:
"Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24 MKJV).
SpiritDriven, you need to take a lower seat, not knowing the most elementary things of the Spirit, before you can begin to learn of God.
RaggedyAnne, you write: "To pronounce a person ‘unsaved’ to the world seems like an anti-Christ thing to do."
That is because you worship another Jesus, not the living resurrected Lord and Savior of all men. Your fake Jesus is a milksop that would not hurt your feelings. The true Jesus does not spare but tells the truth. If one does not know Him, He and those in Him have no problem saying so.
What? Is it better that people walk in delusion that keeps them from receiving the Real, and deceive others into thinking a counterfeit is the Real Thing? To such as you, Jesus said:
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the Kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in" (Matthew 23:13 MKJV).
You continue: "This is the kind of thing you find in fundamentalist churches that thrive in fear and using fear to control others. In other words, they demonize their brothers. I too think they will be judged in the manner they have been judging."
Can you not see how easily you condemn the Lord, Whom I have just quoted, for His words? The problem for you, Raggedy, is that you can’t tell the difference between righteous and unrighteous judgment. You can’t tell the difference between demonizing brothers and exposing demons. You need to repent.
Tony N., you say we preach a false gospel of works. You are wrong. We are preaching the True Gospel that produces fruits of faith. Where there are none of those, there is no grace or faith. You are a son of iniquity, which is why you argue against the good works of faith.
Your argument is not with us, but with the Lord. He is the One Who said that only those who endure to the end are saved. We who endure to the end are saved by His faith, it is true, but your faith requires nothing of you but your assent. What do you have to do with Christ when you deny His faith but affirm your own? You represent the presumptuousness of the man of sin and the antiChrist.
You write: "Also, Paul always connects Christ’s obedience to the cross, His death, His blood to the saving of all mankind. It is based upon what Christ has accomplished, not what we accomplish. Look at Romans 5:18,19, Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 Tim. 2:4-6 and see how Paul always links what Christ did to the salvation of all. He never links it to what we do."
We don’t preach anything other than salvation through Christ’s blood, but you miss the point: Unless you take up the cross and follow Him, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, the fact that Jesus did it all (which He did) makes no difference. As He said: "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity" (Luke 13:27 EMTV).
You also write of us: "I don’t condemn them even should they condemn us. They just are not at the level of maturity yet which God is bringing every believer to eventually.
But we should ‘let them be anathema,’ which is to say just let them be devoted to their destructive ways."
We don’t have to condemn you and your companions, Tony. Others will do that, and are doing it:
"The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the Judgment with this generation and shall condemn it. For they repented at the preaching of Jonah. And behold, One greater than Jonah is here" (Luke 11:32 MKJV).
Cardinal, you write: "I’m left wondering what Charles Slagle’s prophecy was. Anybody know?"
Go to The Deadly Error of the Universalists Appendix B at the bottom, and read the prophecy with commentary there.
You are a rare bird in this crowd, Cardinal, to profess that faith without works is dead. Rarer yet would you be if you walk in that truth, which would make it impossible to fellowship with those who preach a false grace that is iniquity.
If you recognized the works of faith, you would know that we do not condemn any person, but as Jesus said, in complete harmony with the hard words He spoke to many:
"And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My Words has one who judges him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:47-48 MKJV).
Martin Cisnernos, have you nothing better to say than this reminds you of "The Power of Cheese"? No, you don’t. That says much about you. You should be ashamed, not smug and self-satisfied.
Paul Hazelwood, you are on the right track, but you need to know that the Truth is worth fighting for, and those who love Him will contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Why condemn the righteous with the unrighteous? God does not do that. Read Jude, and wake up.
IceDash, maybe English is not your first language, but you are not well, whether or not your incoherency is related to inability. Those who giggle try to hide their wicked hearts, but God is not fooled and knows your sins.
CHB, what matters is what the Lord says. Until you know from Him, you know nothing. You even say this very thing, yet go on to offer your opinion about us as if it has some value. How contradictory you are to be guessing about the things of God! It is one thing to be robbed of something good, but only religious fools rob themselves.
What if we do know what we are talking about, because God has sent us? Can you say He has not? You have much to consider.
Did Paul the apostle lead a peaceful life? He certainly had the peace of God that passes understanding throughout trying circumstances and many difficulties. He didn’t suffer all those things, however, so you could lay back and judge his brethren while claiming that you don’t know for sure, which somehow justifies you in dismissing what you can’t discern. Get real and get with it; God spews the lukewarm out of His mouth.
After this post, Tentmaker banned Victor and Paul from accessing the forum. Victor writes:
"And it causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark on their right hand, or in their foreheads, even that not any might buy or sell except those having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name. Here is the wisdom. Let him having reason count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. And its number is six hundred and sixty-six" (Revelation 13:16-18 MKJV).
"Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall cut you off, and when they shall reproach you and shall cast out your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy. For behold, your reward is great in Heaven. For so their fathers did according to these things to the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23 MKJV).
There are those who are free to speak and those who are not, sometimes for good and sometimes for evil. These people felt they could speak as they pleased out of ignorance and misinformation. When confronting them on their falsehood, addressing them and their error, we were banned from speaking further.
Consider our site, that we have published all that others have had to say against us, as well as our replies. What do those on Tentmaker have to fear that they should silence us? How is it we are bold to reply while they shrink from us? Herein is fulfilled the Scripture:
"The wicked flee when no man pursues; but the righteous are bold as a lion" (Proverbs 28:1 MKJV).
Here are people’s responses, several of which were written before it was announced by a moderator that we were banned from accessing or posting on the site:
Paul Hazelwood’s response:
Thanks for your comments, but this battle is not of flesh and blood and that includes doctrinal wars that divide.
Jesus Christ is the savior of all mankind. That is good enough for everyone.
A note by AbbasChild:
Just found this and thougth I might reply to this. As I understand it – this ministry believes in UR but has also made it their job description to tell everyone else that they’ve got it right and everybody else got it wrong.
I went through the website and didn’t like most of what I read. There is some truth there but also a strong sectarian spirit present. If somebody has got the time to list up pages of names to tell you what they are doing wrong than these people have to much time at hand and should maybe spend more time out there and doing the works of Jesus – leading people to the Father, healing the sick, casting out demons, feeding the poor, and simply just loving people into the Kingdom.
I am sure that if this people read my post it will be twisted by them just as everyone elses writings on their site. (Even though they might be right in some cases, well I don’t know everyone personally. However, Jesus told us how to correct a brother and picking people apart on the internet was not part of it.) There are so many contradictions and illogical statements on this site its unbelievable that those writing for this ministry don’t recognice it for themselves. Charlie’s prophecy is actually a very good examople and you can check it out here. Just scroll down to the end of the article. The writer constantly contradicts himself and makes unproven statements just to proove he is right.
If I sound angry, its because I am. Those who still know me from the old days know that this is ususally not the way I converse, but this stuff is just ridiculus, as it is not about finding the truth but simply about accusing people to raise ones self-importance. I know Gary Amirault, and Charles Slagle is a very good friend of mine (those who know him know he does hear the voice of God) and I can’t believe the lies these people spread about these men who have labored for decades in the word of God, by misquoting and misrepresenting them.
Actually what comes over very strong is the apparent need to see oneself as the mouthpiece of God and in the process condemning everyone who doesn’t agree with them 100%. Been there, done that myself, and had it done to me more than once. Everyone who constantly quotes scripture to justify their un-Christ-like behaviour should ask themselves if they ever really listened to the Word spoken to them. Something is just wrong when I think I can determine if somebody knows the Lord just because they don’t agree with me on every fine point of doctrine.
But of course, since I questioned the un-Christ-like behaviour of this ministry, the next thing will probably be that I am called upon to repent and reminded that I oppose the Lord Himself by disagreeing with these guys etc. Well, its just the old game, and I am sick and tired of people who think they are the Divine representatives on earth, sent to sort everyone out who doesn’t see certain things their way. (This is not the way Jesus nor His apostles handles opposition – actually the only ones Jesus ever repuked in His earthly ministry were those who called themselves the ‘seperate ones’, thinking they were this special group that is above everyone else – the pharisees.) Truly, its far easier to get someone out of Babylon than to get Babylon out of them.
Thank you Paul, for giving me the site addy. I do want to read it.
As for me walking in that truth, you have no idea what I have walked in regarding that; you should know that you are responsible to walk out in shoe leather whatever revelation He gives you, as the bread must be baked by the fire of experience. To whom much is given, much is expected. And I walk where and with whom I am told for whatever season pleases Him. I am not my own, I was bought with a price. Not that I’m calling anyone here that, but He fellowshiped with publicans, Samaritans, and winebibbers, so as the servant is not greater than the master…..casting aspersions on one’s companions in fellowship without knowing the heart of the Father (regarding the particular walk He has revealed to that person) is unjust, because you are judging by the outward man, ie. whatever you can see with your eyes, and touch with your hands.
Let’s look at John 12 a minute. Jesus also said that He only spoke what He heard the Father speak, so since we live or have life by every word that comes out of the Father’s mouth (which is Spirit), and not by bread/letter of Word alone, then WHO exactly was speaking?
So let’s rephrase that; the SPIRIT said, if any man hears my words and does not believe I do not judge him, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world. This is where; be not just a hearer (faith) of the Word (Word that is Spirit, ie. what comes out of the Father’s mouth), but a doer (works) also, applies.
So that leaves us with the part about he who rejects Me (the Spirit) and does not receive my words (plural ie. the breath of the Father’s mouth by which we live or have life), has one who judges him, the Word (previous letter) that I have spoken. This is why if we chose to do the letter of law, we are a debtor to the whole law, and the law/letter is the ministration of death to the hearer (to kill the flesh of the hearer), but the Spirit is life and liberty, as He just said above He comes not to judge.
So if we choose to ignore the words the Spirit speaks to our heart, which is to choose to ignore the works initiated by the Spirit, then we agree the law/letter is good, and are brought back "down" out of being seated in heavenly places with Him, to have the flesh judged by it. Which is why as many as walk in the Spirit are the sons of God, but they that walk in the flesh (having brought themselves back into the bondage of the flesh that is governed by the law/letter) cannot please God.
So by the same principle, if any judges using the letter of the law that killeth, it had better be that the words of the Spirit (that proceeds from the Father’s mouth) to that judge came and said you shall do such and such, else that judge will be judged by the same measure he meted out. Without His Spirit, which is love, cleansing the motive of the heart first, the judgment is not righteous judgment, but judgment that originates out of the heart of man. And I think we all know what originates out of the heart of man. So tell me; did the word come from the Father’s mouth to judge your brethren so? Blessings…
Tony N.’s reply to Paul Cohen:
Paul Cohen: "Tony N., You say we preach a false gospel of works. You are wrong. We are preaching the True Gospel that produces fruits of faith. Where there are none of those, there is no grace or faith. You are a son of iniquity, which is why you argue against the good works of faith."
Woohoo! Thank you Jesus!
Paul, we are under grace, not works. The Jews must endure to the end or they cannot be saved (Matt.10:22).
The believers of the nations who are under grace and not works are saved whether we are sleeping or drowsing:
1Th 5:10 "Who died for our sakes, that, whether we may be watching or drowsing, we should be living at the same time together with Him."
I realize that many here do not believe in administrationalism (wrongly named dispensationalism) but once one "gets it" all is made clear. To join that which is for the Circumcision with that of the Uncircumcision is to adulterate the word of God.
2Co 4:2 But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in God’s sight."
But I appreciate you calling me a son of iniquity. That made my day. This seems to be the week for name calling.
Paul Hazelwood further comments:
Paul Cohen: "We are preaching the True Gospel that produces fruits of faith."
Many ministries can produce fruits of faith, including this one here. the largest problem with division is the grasping of an interpretation and maintaining it’s truth at all cost. After a while people think they have the Godly right to imply a persons fate based on a conversation or a forum post.
Personally, I am willing to fall into the hands of the living God because I am who I am, I believe what I believe and if a sovereign God who ultimatly controls the universe says I didn’t measure up, then oh well. I don’t care, because for some reason, God says to not worry about anything.
So tell me, whats there to worry about?
Your my brother in Christ and we may mutually agree that neither of our viewpoints is beneficial to the other, that doesn’t change a thing regarding Gods love and shepherding for both of us or humanity.
Jesus Christ is the savior of all mankind, and he will save everyone because God declares that as his will. It’s not up to you or me to decide otherwise.
I did wake up and left the institution of religion forever, thank you for the warning, but I’ll take my chances where God has driven me.
is it possible that they are annihilationists?
now I realized they also teach Apokatastasis, this confuses me
CHB’s reply to Paul Cohen:
I haven’t even read any of your material. In fact, I was saying not one of us has all the truth, which does include you as well. I judged no one. I was referring to ALL beliefs including my own, not just yours.
Here is what I wrote:
"Paul, what did you mean by this statement?
I think these believers just haven’t been shown all the truth yet and neither have we.We are all wrong on certain points.
My personal opinion… and that doesn’t mean it is always right,… is:
We all only know what the Lord has given us. We shouldn’t judge others no matter what they believe. If you look at every denomination, each one of them has some truth. I have learned from a few of them myself.
We should just pray for ourselves and others that God would give us all wisdom and understanding to live a peaceful life while we are here. LOVE is the main ingredient."
God knows the heart and it is He who rules in the heavens and gives knowledge to us all. Are you saying that God has given you more knowledge than any one else? Judge not lest ye be judged.
Jabcat replied to all:
I think this thread may still be of interest as a learning experience, so discuss away…but Martin has indicated Paul Cohen won’t be answering any more questions on this site…if someone wants to communicate with him directly you’ll need to contact him. But feel free to go ahead and vent here, even as if he were here to see it, if it helps….man, what a deal, huh?
God’s blessing, James.
Paul Hazelwood’s reply:
I have no questions to ask him.
Wow Paul! And you’re the one he seemed to think might have some slight chance of actually being saved…go figure.
Paul Hazelwood’s reply:
Man, my last glimmer of hope lost forever.
I have a feeling, him being silenced here so soon will become a feather in his cap . . .in his eyes.
Yeah, I figured more opportunity to rip us over on his site…"see, I told ‘ya so"…but I guess you really can’t help that, what are you going to do? …if someone thinks they already know it all, they’re basically going to do whatever they’re going to do anyway…like Taf said to me, on some level it’s not even worth addressing them…sad.
[laughing face] Uh-oh…I forgot this line from his expertise … "Those who giggle try to hide their wicked hearts" What I meant was [frowning and puzzled faces] …we all know anger and condemnation makes a heart glad.
Paul’s answers to each poster, which he wrote after finding out we were banned:
Paul Hazelwood, you say that Jesus Christ being Savior of all mankind is good enough for everyone, no need to contend for the faith. That is not the gospel Paul the apostle preached. He vigorously defended the faith and suffered many things for Christ’s sake. You are in the delusion described in The Deadly Error of the Universalists.
You also speak contrary to the Scriptures, which say it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. You are in error that God says not to worry about anything. That is only true for the one putting his or her trust in Him. But for the one who does his own thing, as you do here, there is plenty to worry about, even as God warns:
“Yet I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and by her teaching leads astray My servants, so that they commit fornication and eat what has been sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent, but she is determined not to repent of her fornication. I tell you that I am about to cast her upon a bed of sickness, and I will severely afflict those who commit adultery with her, unless they repent of conduct such as hers. Her children too shall surely die; and all the Churches shall come to know that I am He Who searches into men’s inmost thoughts; and to each of you I will give a requital which shall be in accordance with what your conduct has been” (Revelation 2:20-23).
“Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off” (Romans 11:22).
The whole Bible refutes your inane, stupor-inducing philosophy, which is lawlessness incarnate. God has not led you into your present confusion and denial of Reality. You ask if we silenced ourselves or whether we were silenced. Does the fact that we were silenced not tell you the whole story?:
"And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them. And their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And many of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will see their dead bodies three days and a half, and they will not allow their dead bodies to be put in tombs. And the ones who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, and will make merry, and will send one another gifts, because these two prophets tormented those living on the earth" (Revelation 11:7-10 MKJV).
AbbasChild (that, you are emphatically not), Jesus and the apostles did not love people into the Kingdom. That is the way of the whore, whom you serve. You say that it is easy to come out of Babylon, but hard to have Babylon come out of you. You describe your situation, beholding your image in the mirror of Light. Only it is impossible for you to be delivered, because you walk in your fleshly mind.
“Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains” (John 9:41 MKJV).
Bring forth one thing we have said that is wrong, false accuser. Substance is not important to the whore, only to the Lord. He is the One Who demands proof. You need to prove what you say, but you can’t. You can only accuse us:
"it is not about finding the truth but simply about accusing people to raise ones self-importance."
… with opinion and speculation…
"Something is just wrong when I think I can determine if somebody knows the Lord just because they don’t agree with me on every fine point of doctrine."
… which amount to unsubstantiated, false charges.
You call us separatists, likening us to Pharisees, but you are a hypocrite, joined to a pack of hyenas that kicked us off your forum and prevented this conversation from taking place. Who are the separatists, liar?
Cardinal, you give yourself away. I never said you fellowshipped with anyone. I said it would be a very rare thing if you were to walk the talk, and actually not fellowship with false preachers. The answer was left for you to provide, which you have. If you were guiltless in this matter, you would have understood and agreed, having nothing to do with the works of darkness. If you were guilty but had a conscience toward God, you would have confessed your sin and been thankful for wholesome counsel and direction leading you out of darkness.
But since you are guilty and set on serving yourself with your idols, you vomit religious garbage in your defense when no accusation was even made against you. "The wicked flee when none pursues." Your sin couldn’t be concealed when the Light came.
AbbasChild has given us a new word – “repuke,” which is an apt description of your confession of sin, which comes not in the humility of contrition, but in the pride of arrogance. It is man’s vomit that you have consumed and now regurgitate on us. You are puking in God’s face, Who has given us these words to speak to you and to all through our writings. His words will and do judge you.
For those who are confused by what Cardinal says about Law and Grace, read the link.
Sven, your doctrinal measuring stick is a carnal device, depending on man’s intelligence, which has led you to Hell and is keeping you prisoner there. You need to get out of there, for your life. But that won’t happen without great humbling, which is now at your doorstep. You must remain incarcerated until you have paid the last cent for your offenses, as the Lord warned all proud offenders:
"Assuredly I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" (Matthew 5:26 EMTV).
CHB, you admit you had not even red our writings. All the more reason you should not be speculating that we are wrong. You really don’t know whether we are wrong or not, not being able to prove anything by the Lord. Instead, you speak by a false principle that all men are in error. This is true of men who walk in their flesh, but not of those who walk in the Spirit:
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things" (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
"But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one [that includes you, CHB]" (1 Corinthians 2:15 MKJV).
"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries [this includes you] shall not be able to gainsay or resist" (Luke 21:15 MKJV).
Your doctrine of all being equal in knowledge and error serves as a convenient out by which you and others can excuse yourselves from hearing and obeying the truth spoken by men of God. Do you really think God sends messengers to convey mixed messages and error to people? If so, you have no basis for your religious beliefs, because they are supposedly based on the revelations and wisdom given to men of God as recorded in the Bible.
Am I saying that God has given us more knowledge than anyone else? Here is what I am saying:
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9 HNV).
Yes, He has given us His mind, and therefore we have infinitely more knowledge than those, as you, who do not know Him. As the apostle wrote to the Corinthians, “But we have the mind of Christ.” He spoke of those who believed, which you do not. In vain do you worship Him with your lips, even as Jesus said of you.
Jabcat, does it never occur to you that the wicked flee, and not the righteous? No, it doesn’t, because you are wicked. You don’t believe or know anything of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Word He speaks to us testifies against you:
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they cut you off, and will reproach you, and will cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man; rejoice in that day, and leap for joy; for, behold, your reward is much in Heaven! For their fathers did according to these things to the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23 LITV).
Nathan, you ought to seek to please God, not men. Entertaining men in the Name of Christ is treachery against God. You need to repent.
Whitewings, "For ours is not a conflict with mere flesh and blood, but with the despotisms, the empires, the forces that control and govern this dark world–the spiritual hosts of evil arrayed against us in the heavenly warfare" (Ephesians 6:12 WNT).
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty by God to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5 EMTV).
What do you know of these things? Nothing. All you do by being clever is reveal your spiritual ignorance, pride, and pugnaciousness. And what does God do with such? He resists the proud (James 4:6) and is an adversary to the crooked (Psalm 18:26).
Tony N., those who live with the Lord whether asleep or awake are the children of Light and Day, not the children of night and darkness, as you are:
"For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those getting drunk, are drunk at night" (1 Thessalonians 5:7 EMTV).
On the other hand:
"But we, since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on a breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us [the children of Light] to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 EMTV).
Now the Day of the Lord has come and overtaken you as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4).
You are right that only Jews endure to the end to be saved, just as the Lord said to His disciples, who were true Jews.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God" (Romans 2:28-29 MKJV).
As you are not a son of Light, neither are you a Jew, which explains your lawlessness. You defile the Name of the Lord: "Woohoo! Thank you Jesus!" How vile and disgusting! Those with eyes will see.
"But the wicked, all of them, shall be like a thorn thrust away, because they cannot be taken by the hand. But the man who shall touch them must be armed with iron and the staff of a spear. And they shall be utterly burned in their place" (2 Samuel 23:6-7 MKJV).
Taffy, what you have done doesn’t look good because it isn’t good. But you don’t care about the latter, only the former – how things look. You are a proud and wretched creature, and you will know it.
Certain replies and Paul’s answers to each:
Reply from Nathan to Paul:
Hey bro, I briefly read through your website . . .you have me twice . . .and it is true that I did write the "feather in his cap" post . . .I did NOT however write the second one about needing to repent. I would appreciate that you correct this for me as I do go out of my way to express my personal convictions that enforcing others to meet my own personal standards of what I think a Christian is, is not God’s intention for any of us. And for me to order that you must repent is very much against my own personal convictions. What you do is between you and the Lord and it’s none of my business to come to you and try to convince you otherwise when you’ve made it very clear of your personal stance. I respect your position and have no desire to tell you your need of repentance.
Nathan, you skimmed too quickly through the site. The first entry gave indication that you wrote it ("Nathan wrote: …") . The second indicated that I was replying to you, just as I do here (“Nathan, …”). The section was even prefaced with a statement that I was replying to each respondent. You need to read again, more carefully and slowly.
You are right that it is not our business to enforce our own personal standards of what we think Christians should be. God forbid! We need to know God’s standards and preach those:
"Whoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men thus, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:19 EMTV).
To enforce man’s standards on others in the Name of Christ is the work of the man of sin, which has no place at all among the saints. That is the nature expressed by those in religious works such as the Catholic Church and so many other religious organizations, who teach the commandments of men and do many things contrary to God, yet use His Name. Thieves and murderers! Many of these works are more subtle than the Inquisition, but the spirit and acts come from the same rotten root. Of these works, David wrote by the Spirit of God:
"As for the works of men, by the Word of Your lips, I have kept myself from the ways of the violent" (Psalms 17:4 HNV).
Do you think God does not want people to know about these things? He surely wants you to know there is a difference between the lies you believe, which destroy, and the truth of His doctrine, Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, which saves those who receive Him.
But you are right that you have no business telling others to repent, especially because you have not repented yourself. That is why I said you need to. I have every right to preach repentance to others, but only because God has prepared and sent us for this purpose. Has He not done so with others, according to the Scriptures? Why should you, a professing believer in Christ, think it strange that someone should do so? It is because you have lies for doctrine to deceive you.
You are altogether wrong to rule out the possibility that God sends such messengers. What do you do with this Scripture?
"Shout! A full-throated shout! Hold nothing back–a trumpet-blast shout! Tell My people what’s wrong with their lives, face My family Jacob with their sins!" (Isaiah 58:1 MSG)
So God says that what you do is not just your business. It is the business of His servants, who are sent by Him to speak His Word of judgment on earth. What do you think the Body of Christ is for, if not to express His Mind and Will? And do you think His Body does not have a Mouth?
We are not here to strive. If you wish to go your way, not believing or agreeing, we are at peace with God, having done our duty. By the grace of God we wipe the dust from our feet as commanded. We know that His Word has not been spoken to you in vain. Indeed, It is now required of you.
martincisneros wrote on forum:
What’s amazingly odd is that the Holy Spirit will not allow me to go to that other website at all. I have no idea what it says beyond the quotations that have been made on this thread. Must be pretty bad. All we can do is fast and pray for them. My only question of them is whether or not they feel confident enough in what they’re doing to assert with myself and St. Paul what St. Paul asserted in 1Corinthians 4:16 and 1Corinthians 11:1. If they can boldly say that with the confidence that I’d say it, then I wholeheartedly welcome all of you to go over to that website if any of you aren’t particularly restrained by the Holy Spirit from doing so and see what you can do to help that ministry out.
Every ministry like theirs is going to have needs. Open your hearts and open your wallets to them and help them with getting the Gospel out, if they’re genuinely doing that.
Otherwise, I’m closing the thread ’cause it’s genuinely time to move on to other matters. If they have an address handy on their website, then keep it handy as you’re getting your tax returns and do all that the Holy Spirit tells you to do. If the Holy Spirit tells you nothing in particular about them, then still do all you can for them with your fasting and praying for them.
Martin, that is not the Holy Spirit guiding you, and I can prove it for those willing and able to hear God’s Word. You say that if we can boldly assert as Paul did with the Corinthians, exhorting others to be imitators of us, you would welcome others to do so, should they not be restrained by the Holy Spirit.
Well, we most certainly can and do exhort others to follow us as we follow Christ. But Paul was writing to believers he knew – the household of God – and not just any who professed to believe in God. Even more specifically, he was writing to those he begot through the gospel he preached.
"For though you might have ten thousand guides in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me" (1 Corinthians 4:15-16 EMTV).
We, along with Paul, would not begin to expect you, as unbelievers or unbelieving believers, to follow us. That is a work of God, which could only commence following His gift of repentance and the imparting of His faith, with corresponding fruits that demonstrate His Presence and work.
Also, why in the world would the Spirit of God keep one man away from our writings, as if they are poison, but then recommend them to others? There is only one valid answer. That man, from whom the writings are kept, is not following God, but is in darkness; the Lord has prevented him from the Tree of Life. The flaming sword is in effect, which only allows those willing and able to pay with their lives to partake of the Tree:
"Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it" (Matthew 16:24-25 KJV).
The other possibility is that we are false, and Martin is a blind shepherd, not able or willing to guide the sheep away from the wolves. "Hey, if the spirit moves you, go for it!" He embraces the wide road to destruction. He can’t tell whether one is of God or not, or worse yet, won’t tell. Whatever we are, Martin’s counsel is not of God.
Another indication of being a worker in error, which should be pointed out for the sake of others, is Martin’s suggestion that we need your financial support. We have no desire for such and would not accept it. The servants of God are not beggars looking for handouts. We are not registered with the government for tax breaks. Those are the ways of the prostitute. You people need to read The True Marks of a Cult to hear and learn the difference between truth and error. Knowing that Jesus Christ saves everyone does not save you from your sins and errors:
"And that servant who knew his lord’s will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Luke 12:47-48 MKJV).
Blind guides and followers, having heard more, more is now required of you.
Paul Hazelwood writes on forum:
Mt 6:25 . Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
I welcome your thoughts on my doctrine, which, really isn’t my doctrine so much as just a belief in the Love of God which is an action that causes all to understand.
Please continue to post this thread on your site because what you do not seem to realize is that Gods love is stronger than your accusations (or anyones). It is stronger than your logic and God works all things for the sake of his delight. If you have decided what I do concerning the gospel and made a judgment of that, wonderful, you have excersized your right to an opinion.
I do not need to argue with you, only point out that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and he is very Good at it. So good that he will be 100% successful. Your objections will one day be meaningless since that power trumps anything any of us might think.
A man bound by desire can see only that which he can hold in his hands.
Oh, I did want to mention one other thing. I see you want to use your circumstances as evidence for the truth of what you teach. So according to your reason, then, universalism has been banned from being discussed on another internet site, so, I guess that tells the whole story?
Take care brother.
Quote from Paul Cohen: "Paul Hazelwood, you say that Jesus Christ being Savior of all mankind is good enough for everyone, no need to contend for the faith."
One other thing Paul. I never said the words I highlighted in red above. That is your summary of what I have said. Please edit your website accordingly I would appreciate it.
How is it not contending for the faith when I share that faith openly on the internet using my real name and not some alias? Is it because I do it differently than you?
I continue to contend the faith I believe in spite of your accusations, how is that not contending for the faith?
Paul Cohen’s reply:
You are right that you did not say these exact words, but that I summed up your attitude as saying there was "no need to contend for the faith." I see no reason to change this description. What you defend as your "faith" are your personal beliefs and interpretations of Scripture. What I am talking about, and what the apostle who penned those words is talking about, is the faith that was once delivered to the saints. It has nothing whatsoever to do with your beliefs. Herein is the crux of our contention in Christ.
The faith delivered to the saints is the actual faith of Christ. It is the power of God that comes to man through the Son, enabling man to walk as He walked. It is holy and undefiled, yet has been supplanted by ungodly men who have crept in secretly, spreading their lawless ways in Christ’s Name. Universalists fit this description, as pointed out in The Deadly Error of the Universalists. That is why they hate what we have written, bring it up to dispute it, and then do not allow us to answer them according to the Word of the Lord.
Your contention is not for the faith of Christ. It is against Him and His faith. It is your opinion that you pit against the Truth. You contradict yourself, though, even by contending as you do, according to your own words:
"I do not need to argue with you, only point out that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and he is very Good at it. So good that he will be 100% successful. Your objections will one day be meaningless since that power trumps anything any of us might think."
So then why do you argue? But you know nothing of God or how He works. The things I have said here, being the testimony of Jesus Christ, are the very means and power by which God accomplishes His work of transformation. The apostle Paul spoke of this:
"If from merely human motives I have fought with wild beasts in Ephesus, what profit is it to me? If the dead do not rise, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die" (1 Corinthians 15:32 WNT).
"But he sowing to the Spirit will reap life everlasting from the Spirit. But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint" (Galatians 6:8-9 MKJV).
Even God’s love is, by your words, manifestly foreign to you. You speak of “a belief in His love,” but those who are His are His love because they are born of Him and have His nature. This is foreign to you, and what you presume to have for His love is merely a counterfeit of it, originating from the serpent and eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Read False Love – Satan’s Last Stronghold.
God’s Word, spoken by many true sons of faith over the age, does not return to Him void. We, in this last day, which is full of mockers and scoffers as prophesied by the fathers, give testimony with our fathers against the utterly wicked ways of those here who claim to love God, yet hate His appearing.
As for this question you pose:
"I see you want to use your circumstances as evidence for the truth of what you teach. So according to your reason, then, universalism has been banned from being discussed on another internet site, so, I guess that tells the whole story?"
We were not banned from the Tentmaker forum for preaching against the salvation of all. We preach this truth, so how could it be the issue? We were banned for confronting the participants on this forum about their hypocrisies and lies. That is the difference, Paul, but you are focused solely on your doctrinal god, which has blinded you.
What has happened on this forum with us has nothing to do with doctrine, contrary to you being banned from another forum for preaching universal salvation. If you are kicked off another forum for preaching your doctrine, it is the dead burying the dead. You were right when you wrote somewhere else that doctrinal wars that divide are not necessarily the battles of Heaven. Yours is a battle of flesh, which explains what happens when you or your cohorts are kicked off a forum. And though your battles are with flesh and blood, ours are not, because we are not fighting for a doctrine.
Our confrontation here is with those who profess to believe, but do not:
"They profess that they know God, but in their works they deny Him, being abominable and disobedient and reprobate to every good work" (Titus 1:16 MKJV).