From: Terence
To: The Path of Truth
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:52 AM
Subject: Trinity
Just when I thought I had mastered the concept of the Trinity (I can send you my explanations if you want) I have come across your site, which attacks the whole thought of God as a Triune Being for humankind. I appreciate what your website declares and I am open to being swayed as I am only interested in Truth, however there is no link anywhere on your site about a preacher called David Pawson.
I feel so much that this man out of all the other false teachers is in fact sincere, yet he too believes in the three-fold expression of God. When you have some spare moment, please could you give me some feedback, especially as to how you regard David Pawson.
Many thanks,
Terence
From: Paul Cohen
To: Terence
Cc: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Trinity
Terence, the “concept of The Trinity” is “un-masterable,” because it’s sheer nonsense and as untrue as God is true. There’s nothing to grasp or hold onto there. Just as three men put together doesn’t make up you, so three gods put together doesn’t make up God.
(The trinity claims not just to be a “three-fold expression of God,” but three separate beings or “distinct Persons” composing or being God.)
As for David Pawson, we hadn’t heard of him till now. But you must know that sincerity isn’t nearly enough to qualify one as a man of God. Many are the sincere deluded who preach the Gospel according to the diabolical doctrines of men and their own understanding.
By its very nature, delusion means the one under its influence doesn’t know he is wrong, which makes his sincerity deceptive.
Read also The True Marks of a Cult and tell us how Pawson stacks up, not to man’s opinion, but to the Word of God and His standards.
Paul
From: Terence
To: Paul Cohen
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Trinity
Hello Paul,
I think the Trinity is masterable but I dont want to argue with you too deeply about it, I am in the first instance pleased that you took the time to reply.
I think David Pawson is okay. He charges for books but I think it mostly is to recover costs. A lot of his writing is freely available via Kindle and his videos are all over YouTube. He is not a rich man and I think he really is a good teacher. I know trust in Jesus is the best way but sometimes its nice to be able to trust a human. Someone must be telling the truth! I hope! A lot of the people you list as false teachers I have not listened to or not listened to very much, apart from four.
John Hagee
Joyce Meyer
Joel Osteen
Joseph Prince
Just realised they all begin with ‘J’
I find John Hagee the best, he gets straight into stuff. Joyce Meyer is mainly for women I think, I usually end up a bit bored, with respect. And I find Joel Osteen a bit lukewarm. Joseph Prince I like but I am put off now you have said its not his real name. But I must be wary as I have this huge plank in my eye so its a bit crazy to say there is a speck in another persons preaching!
Anyway, good website, I need to explore it some more. I have read the ‘True Marks Of A Cult’ and offer the following feedback. I am pretty sure I am a lot lower than you are in all things of God but I have tried to give good comment, which you may or may not find useful.
Thank you
Terence
I don’t mention every category, as a few are evident.
Official Names
My thought is that gatherings (in this day and age) need to have some kind of name. Baptism is really fulfilling but for sure is not a main tenet, only Jesus is.
Money Solicitation
My Church does ask for money to support it, otherwise it wouldn’t exist. The home of our town Church was built almost entirely with tithes. Asking for money is a tricky problem though and I think is important to weigh things up. It was different 2000 years ago, as you didn’t need buildings to hold congregations or indeed have to adhere to many other modern laws.
Government Registration
Again, our systems are very different now compared to the time of Jesus.
Doctrine Of Eternal Torment
This is a nasty bit that nobody really wants to talk about. Jesus never talked about some of the demonic claptrap that goes around that’s true. He did tell us what Hell was like though; in fact He is the only Person who has.
Sacred Buildings
Personally, not that my view would count for much; I do connect with what is stated here. My only comment might reason that we are in a different and modern world now (as I seem to keep saying!) and therefore is not as practical for a preacher to meander around and hold together a group whenever or of whim. There are dangers today such as roads, which makes the dynamics different. Also we live in a far greater and hectic environment and all in all I think impromptu gatherings for many would be difficult. So we do need buildings but of course it is wrong to say the building is the ‘Church’.
Hirelings For Leaders
Our Church leader does need help but mostly volunteers give it. He himself and a few who work in full time ministry are indeed paid because at the end of the day they have to eat.
Easy For Anyone To Join
It was easy to join my Church and easy to become a member. I think it then makes it easy for the Church to calculate ministry effectiveness, not as a goal to become a cult. And we have many debates, a lot ending with different viewpoints rather than all nicely agreeing with each other.
Keeping Pagan Festivals
Jesus would not have celebrated Easter or Christmas because He is the Cause of these reminders of His Life. We should be careful, in my humble opinion, about majoring on pagan roots because this will only entwine and try to squeeze the life out of Joy for our Lord Jesus. Sure the ‘dates’ are inconvenient truths but these are diversionary aspects. Problems increase with the obvious marketing of these occasions, most of which utterly ignore the central relevance of them. For humankind to raise a drink to Jesus (in unison) on a selected day in order to say thanks for being born is pretty okay I would venture (even though we can do it any day we chose). Also to have a few days each year to reflect specifically on His suffering for us as we do at Easter is a modest time out in our busy lives.
Healing Services
Wow, you don’t like Benny Hinn do you! Your language shocked me but that’s probably my quaint old English personality. I have never read or heard Benny Hinn and I don’t think I want to. My personal experiences of healing services are that they are false and no one actual gets healed. Guess I can add scepticism to my list of faults God with throw at me one day! I think I would believe a healer was endowed and empowered with such gifts if I saw him heal someone like Stephen Hawking.
Denying Believers Hearing The Voice Of God
My own experience of the Voice Of God was very brief but hugely electrifying. I had to write a very difficult letter and just did not know how to go about it. I was on my own in my office when someone said behind me “Terence” as clear as a bell. I spun round and nobody was there, in fact there was nobody in the house. I immediately knew what to write and sat down feeling Jesus was sitting next to me. Everything I wanted the letter to do it achieved. The episode was so startling I stood in front of the Church some months later and told them all.
From: Paul Cohen
To: Terence
Cc: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 8:05 AM
Subject: The True Marks of a Cult
Hi Terence,
Your judgment of Pawson is superficial and lacks any godly assurance or substance. You’re hopeful he is right, but not sure, which is never good cause to put your trust in a man. Jesus certainly didn’t do that:
“But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all and did not need that anyone should testify of man. For He knew what was in man” (John 2:24-25 MKJV).
As Paul also, filled with His Spirit, said:
“But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, ‘That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged’” (Romans 3:4 MKJV).
Do you think Pawson hasn’t judged God unjustly according to his carnal teachings and interpretations of Scriptures, by which He violates the Word of God?
Your justification for believing Pawson has no merit, only vain hope:
“I know trust in Jesus is the best way but sometimes its nice to be able to trust a human. Someone must be telling the truth! I hope!”
So should you roll the dice on the person who most approximates your idea of what a godly man is, or should you wait on the Lord to positively identify His servants to you, with confirmation following?
While we’re not in agreement in the Lord, Terence, at least you’re trying to dialogue, which makes me hopeful of better things for you if you’re also willing to listen. I’m commenting here on your remarks about several of our “True Marks of a Cult”:
Official Names
My thought is that gatherings (in this day and age) need to have some kind of name. Baptism is really fulfilling but for sure is not a main tenet, only Jesus is.
Your assumption about needing a name is wrong and has no godly corroboration in the Scriptures. In our actual experience, as well, it is proven wrong. We gather online weekly with believers from around the world in Christ, and we have no name associated with our gathering, other than His (in spirit and in truth, not formality). It was the same way for believers in the days of the apostles, as recounted in Acts. Why should it be any different today?
“Jesus Christ, the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8 LITV).
Money Solicitation
My Church does ask for money to support it, otherwise it wouldn’t exist. The home of our town Church was built almost entirely with tithes. Asking for money is a tricky problem though and I think is important to weigh things up. It was different 2000 years ago, as you didn’t need buildings to hold congregations or indeed have to adhere to many other modern laws.
The disciples of Christ never solicited money, especially from strangers. They collected tithes and offerings from those who believed, but that wasn’t and isn’t the same thing as asking for support by passing around the hat at meetings and putting out pleas, or soliciting donations on a website, as the four false teachers you mention all do.
“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God [not man]” (Philippians 4:6 MKJV).
True servants of God have never solicited men for support. Their trust was in the One sending them, not in the ones He was sending them to. And He never fails to pay His workmen their due wages or meet their necessities, as the Lord pointed out to His disciples:
“When I sent you without purse and wallet and sandals, did you lack anything? And they said, Nothing” (Luke 22:35 MKJV).
Government Registration
Again, our systems are very different now compared to the time of Jesus.
The wisdom of the Lord contradicts you again, as demonstrated in the past two points. God hasn’t changed, and neither has man.
“That which has been is that which shall be; and that which has been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun. Is there a thing of which it may be said, See, this is new? It has already been in days of old, which were before us” (Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 MKJV).
Are you not suggesting the Body of Christ is subject to operating by men’s ways and thoughts, which are of this world? If any church is subject to the systems of the world, it’s because it is of the world and can think and operate no differently.
Doctrine Of Eternal Torment
This is a nasty bit that nobody really wants to talk about. Jesus never talked about some of the demonic claptrap that goes around that’s true. He did tell us what Hell was like though; in fact He is the only Person who has.
Our point is that Jesus didn’t and doesn’t teach an eternal torture chamber is the destiny of the majority of mankind (or any of it). We give a thorough Scriptural rundown on this matter, so read all the links we’ve provided to see for yourself, Terence, Lord willing. If He doesn’t open your eyes, you won’t see.
Sacred Buildings
Personally, not that my view would count for much; I do connect with what is stated here. My only comment might reason that we are in a different and modern world now (as I seem to keep saying!) and therefore is not as practical for a preacher to meander around and hold together a group whenever or of whim. There are dangers today such as roads, which makes the dynamics different. Also we live in a far greater and hectic environment and all in all I think impromptu gatherings for many would be difficult. So we do need buildings but of course it is wrong to say the building is the ‘Church’.
Yes, it’s wrong to call a building “the Church” as His Church is His people whom He inhabits. Doesn’t the fact that men look to their works as “the Church” therefore tell you all you need to know about the churches of men?
But as for your reasoning about gathering in His Name, Terence, it’s carnal. We’ve never said one should not or could not have or use a building to gather in. The Lord, however, isn’t restricted to how or where He gathers His people. He provides whatever is needed, whenever and wherever. You don’t know Him or His power; you don’t glorify Him as God.
Hirelings For Leaders
Our Church leader does need help but mostly volunteers give it. He himself and a few who work in full time ministry are indeed paid because at the end of the day they have to eat.
We’re not saying hirelings shouldn’t get paid. Why should they be different than anyone else who is hired for a job? We’re just saying they’re hirelings, and you should know what the Lord says about those:
John 10:11-13 MKJV
(11) I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
(12) But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away. And the wolf catches them and scatters the sheep.
(13) The hireling flees, because he is a hireling and does not care for the sheep.
See how easily and subtly you come against the Lord and His words, rationalizing man’s ways, deceived by appearances?
Easy For Anyone To Join
It was easy to join my Church and easy to become a member. I think it then makes it easy for the Church to calculate ministry effectiveness, not as a goal to become a cult. And we have many debates, a lot ending with different viewpoints rather than all nicely agreeing with each other.
Exactly the point. In the churches of men it’s up to the people who join them to choose, rather than up to God, Who joins whom He chooses to His Church (Body):
“You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you…” (John 15:16 MKJV).
“And the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved” (Acts 2:47 KJV).
And the Way to become a member of His Body comes through Him and taking up the cross, the narrow gate He spoke of:
“Strive to enter in at the narrow gate. For I say to you, many will seek to enter in and shall not be able” (Luke 13:24 MKJV).
“Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it. Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13-14 MKJV).
The churches of men are of this world, but the Lord calls His people out of those, as well documented from the Scriptures on our site (The Case for Coming Out).
“Therefore let us go forth to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come” (Hebrews 13:13-14 MKJV).
You are yet “in the camp,” having a “continuing city,” because you’ve taken the broad way.
Keeping Pagan Festivals
Jesus would not have celebrated Easter or Christmas because He is the Cause of these reminders of His Life. We should be careful, in my humble opinion, about majoring on pagan roots because this will only entwine and try to squeeze the life out of Joy for our Lord Jesus. Sure the ‘dates’ are inconvenient truths but these are diversionary aspects. Problems increase with the obvious marketing of these occasions, most of which utterly ignore the central relevance of them. For humankind to raise a drink to Jesus (in unison) on a selected day in order to say thanks for being born is pretty okay I would venture (even though we can do it any day we chose). Also to have a few days each year to reflect specifically on His suffering for us as we do at Easter is a modest time out in our busy lives.
You’re right: we don’t need to major on pagan roots, as you put it, if we obey the Lord. This issue only becomes a big deal when men decide to do their own thing in the Name of the Lord and argue in favor of their idol worship.
And where do you find us majoring on pagan festivals? We take out the pit of a plum, discard it and eat the plum. God eliminates Ananias and Sapphira, a dread event, but He and His Church don’t make a major issue of it. So you eat the plum pit to avoid a scene? You should let people eat the pit, lest you should spoil their “joy”?
It’s clear that the Lord categorically condemns in no uncertain terms all forms of pagan worship and ungodly mixture, which creates a false image of Him. Apparently you aren’t reading the attached writings in each mark of a cult segment, which present the appropriate Scriptures, or if you are, you just don’t care one iota what the Lord says.
Healing Services
Wow, you don’t like Benny Hinn do you! Your language shocked me but that’s probably my quaint old English personality. I have never read or heard Benny Hinn and I don’t think I want to. My personal experiences of healing services are that they are false and no one actual gets healed. Guess I can add scepticism to my list of faults God with throw at me one day! I think I would believe a healer was endowed and empowered with such gifts if I saw him heal someone like Stephen Hawking.
Why couldn’t the Lord heal anyone today? You simply don’t believe Him or anything He says, Terence.
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: in My Name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover” (Mark 16:17-18 ESV).
As for Benny Hinn, the Lord hates what he does and stands for, but once again, you don’t see or know the Lords thoughts and ways, which become ours because we believe Him.
“Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies” (Psalms 139:21-22 ESV).
These things are made known to those who receive His life by His Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:7-16 EMTV
(7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the wisdom having been hidden, which God foreordained before the ages for our glory,
(8) which none of the rulers of this age knew (for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory).
(9) But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
(10) But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(11) For who knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, in order that we might know the things granted to us by God;
(13) which we also speak, not in words taught in human wisdom, but in words taught by the Holy Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he that is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no man.
(16) For “Who has known the mind of the LORD, that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
And interesting you should bring up Stephen Hawking. Just the other day he went on the record saying, “There is no God.” Those who receive healings from God’s servants do so by faith in Him, so you won’t see any man of God laying hands on Hawking for healing, as things presently stand.
Also, you should consider what kind of person Hawking is. His college girlfriend marries him after his initial diagnosis, knowing he could be dead soon and certainly incapacitated for years to come, yet lovingly (by all accounts) cares for him and devotes herself to his life and burning ambition for 26 years, enabling him to accomplish his work. Then what happens? Hawking “falls in love” with his nurse and dumps his wife.
Though traumatic as it was, I think that was the best thing for his first wife, who experienced the following after Hawking’s worldly success:
“Things, for her, went from bad to worse after the publication of A Brief History of Time. ‘Fame and fortune muddied the waters,’ she says, ‘and really took him way out of the orbit of our family.’ Just before their marriage broke down after 26 years she revealed to a journalist that her role with her husband no longer consisted of promoting his success but of ‘telling him that he was not God’.
Does she still feel it was like that?
‘Certainly that he felt he was omnipotent, you might say.‘”
No wonder Hawking says there’s no God – he believes he is God.
Denying Believers Hearing The Voice Of God
My own experience of the Voice Of God was very brief but hugely electrifying. I had to write a very difficult letter and just did not know how to go about it. I was on my own in my office when someone said behind me “Terence” as clear as a bell. I spun round and nobody was there, in fact there was nobody in the house. I immediately knew what to write and sat down feeling Jesus was sitting next to me. Everything I wanted the letter to do it achieved. The episode was so startling I stood in front of the Church some months later and told them all.
We would like to hear more about the letter – what the Lord gave you to write, and what happened after it was sent. Can you tell us?
Do you realize that God doesn’t talk to people in an audible voice, except on very rare occasions, such as at Jesus’ baptism? When Jesus spoke of His disciples hearing His voice, He was talking about being led by Him by His Spirit.
“And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, This is the way, walk in it, when you turn to the right hand and when you turn to the left” (Isaiah 30:21 MKJV).
This is a regular occurrence for His people, who have an intimate relationship with Him because He is their life. All true believers will know this, because they know Him. His sheep, He said, hear His voice. They most certainly do.
Paul
From: Terence
To: Paul Cohen
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2014 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: The True Marks of a Cult
Hi Paul,
“Your judgment of Pawson is superficial and lacks any godly assurance or substance. You’re hopeful he is right, but not sure, which is never good cause to put your trust in a man. Jesus certainly didn’t do that”
I am not Jesus. I cannot judge. I cannot come close to what Jesus did, said, understood or demonstrated. I am hardly worthy to even say our Lord’s Name. Your answer, correct maybe, doesnt necessarily help.
My views on Pawson are indeed superficial and without assurance. Nevertheless I do hope the guy is right, at least in the main. God will evaluate teachers to quite a high degree from what I gather, so I can only pray that he is sincere for his own sake. The same goes for you Paul actually, if you are a teacher of Scripture I hope that all you say or infer is truly correct.
Do you think Pawson hasn’t judged God unjustly according to his carnal teachings and interpretations of Scriptures, by which He violates the Word of God?
I have no idea, I am not actually joined at the hip with this person and I have no insight into his daily prayer life. What I have heard him talk about though doesn’t sound too bad but having said that I don’t rely on him as a counsel.
Your justification for believing Pawson has no merit, only vain hope:
“I know trust in Jesus is the best way but sometimes it’s nice to be able to trust a human. Someone must be telling the truth! I hope!”
Well what merit do I have to believe even what you say? What justification can I hold onto to enable an assurance that your own interpretations of Scripture are utterly flawless? It would be nice to trust another human, so how about me trusting you? And if I did, even that would be an error because no human is perfect and so by association this means that no mans understanding of the Bible is perfect either.
So should you roll the dice on the person who most approximates your idea of what a godly man is or should you wait on the Lord to positively identify His servants to you, with confirmation following?
Until the Lord identifies a true servant to me, with confirmation, should I not search for the truth with prayer and supplication?
Can I ask what you make of people like Derek Walker (Oxford Bible) or Ken Ham or Howard Condor (Revelation TV)? Am I rolling the dice with everyone?
I have gained my own comprehension of the Bible, yet often I hear or read alternative visions and I always listen and evaluate because I have no divine right to say my particular vision is 100% accurate. The Bible is so very rich that I am often energized with new information that others have gleaned from it. I may gain additional perspectives from a preacher or by a stranger or via statements like your own ‘True Marks Of A Cult’. Once I have new insight I can sit down with the Lord and pray and seek out if there is a Spirit of Comfort over what I have read or listened to. So trusting is part of the equation isn’t it? We trust in others, like those that wrote the Bible for example, most days of our lives. As God never changes because He has always been and always will be, His Living Existence means that everything of God contains His Living Energy, therefore the Bible is His Living Word
Regards
Terence
From: Terence
To: Paul Cohen
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 3:47 PM
Subject: benny hinn
Hi Paul,
Sorry to bother you as I am sure you are busy but I had to tell you that I tuned in to a broadcast by Benny Hinn for the first time ever.
There was a promise of a prophetic word (from a cohort) so I waited and waited to hear it.
Finally the prophetic word was announced.
An insight into the Middle East troubles? No.
A prophecy about End Times? No.
A view about Israel? No.
A communication from God? No.
About an event to come in nature? No.
The prophetic word was….
Give $41 or $141 or $1041 to Benny Hinn NOW. DON’T THINK ABOUT IT, JUST DO IT NOW.
I was stunned, embarrased and amazed.
You are so right – and I hate to judge – but wow I have to agree that the man does not have an iota of Godliness about him.
Regards
Terence
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: Terence
Cc: Paul Cohen
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 8:40 AM
Subject: Re[2]: The True Marks of a Cult/Benny Hinn
Terence, you’re right about Benny Hinn, and there are thousands more in bed with him, including those you mention. Many are the false, but few the true, even as it has always been. However, you have no clue because you walk in darkness. Searching, maybe, but a search on your terms and not the Lord’s.
We aren’t “joined at the hip” with the false teachers, thank God, but we are one with the Lord Jesus Christ, even as He is One with the Father. This is because His prayer was answered in John 17 on our behalf and we are crucified with Him, living by His gift of faith:
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20 KJV).
We have His Mind, as He admonishes us to have:
“For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 2:5 MKJV).
“And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God” (Romans 12:2 MKJV).
As brother John says, we know all things because we have His Mind:
“But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things” (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
“But the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He has taught you, abide in Him” (1 John 2:27 MKJV).
We are in His stead now:
“Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you” (John 20:21 MKJV).
You, on the other hand, write:
“I am not Jesus. I cannot judge. I cannot come close to what Jesus did, said, understood or demonstrated.”
Of course, you’re in no place to judge righteous judgment because you’ve never known Him. You need to repent of yourself, your self-righteousness, your gods and sins. What are they, Terence? You need to know and obey, and you’re doing neither, hence, the darkness you mumble and in which you stumble and fumble.
But we ARE Jesus, in that we are united with Him and obediently speak His Word as He has sent us to do. We DO judge, appointed to do so (Read True Love Comes to Expose the False). Being one with Him, we come very close to doing what He did. Wasn’t it He Who said we would be doing works greater than those He did because He was going to the Father?
“Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father” (John 14:12 MKJV).
We have believed on Him. He went to the Father, returned, gave us His Spirit and now we move in intimate spiritual fellowship with Him. But you’ve experienced none of these things, have you? You confess so with your own lips.
Do we condemn you? It will sound that way to you because His Word of Truth we speak judges you and you’re already condemned, even as the Scriptures declare (John, again):
John 3:18-21 MKJV
(18) He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
(20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
(21) But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God.
But we have no need to condemn you. We are also perfectly aware that we once wandered and wondered in the dark even as you do now. Will you be offended? Fruits tell all.
Victor
From: Terence
To: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The True Marks of a Cult/Benny Hinn
Dear Victor Hafichuk,
You have e-mailed me from some correspondence I was having with Paul Cohen, which is fine, thank you for writing.
I reply in order to clarify some points.
I never said you or Paul were joined at the hip with false teachers but if I gave that impression I am sorry I did. I think there is some misunderstanding going through things, however I do appreciate your statments.
You have asked about my self-righteousness, my gods and my sins but I am having difficulty to understand what gods and sins you mean. I am unaware of any particular sins. I like science-fiction films and I like football. I also like meat and sometimes suffer with a lack of patience. If God frowns on the things I like or do then for sure there is plently of sin in my life but nothing as a stand-alone feature.
I work hard for my family, go to Church, give when I can and listen to advice. None of this makes me righteous of course, being righteous is hard but I would find being self-righteous even harder! Those that know me don’t say I am. As for gods, again I am at a loss as to what you mean, especially when you direct that at me personally. Other gods don’t even enter my head, except by way of research.
As far as condemning is concerned, where did that come from, I haven’t even asked for your opinion here but nevertheless, if you do condemn me over something I have said then I would not take offence as you say, I would just be sad that something I have said has been taken the wrong way.
Please know that I appreciate the e-mails you have sent me, I am a very, very unimportant person, hardly worthy of your time. I love the Scripture that is highlighted in your communications and I intend no ill-will or quarrel. By the nature of things just one word can be taken in a variety of different ways and so a first meaning can be altered by a chance interpretation. Please be assured that I do try to be sincere.
Terence
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: Terence
Cc: Paul Cohen
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 7:57 AM
Subject: The Mind of Christ
Hi Terence,
“By the nature of things just one word can be taken in a variety of different ways and so a first meaning can be altered by a chance interpretation. Please be assured that I do try to be sincere.”
Very true, as experienced many times.
Who can tell who is important to the Lord? Christ died for all and every man’s a universe.
1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
“But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things” (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
Therefore, it is possible to know, necessary to know, given to know, and by His grace, we know.
Victor
From: Terence
To: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: The Trinity
Hello again Victor and Paul,
I was not sure who to send this to so I have addressed it to you both. I am slowly trawling through your website and must say I am finding it very friendly and helpful. What other Christian site tells you what to eat!
I am better informed with diet and now because of watching what food I buy, I am gradually going through your information in a healthier way.
The Trinity equation is quite an invigorating topic and I have read quite a bit and looked at the references. I have some comments to make, which are in no way intended to rile you or provoke animosity. It is just perhaps searching in the dark on my part. What I end up concluding are only my personal thoughts and impulses and I appreciate that I may be wide of the mark.
Nonetheless, this is my view of the Trinity.
1x1x1 = 1 not 1+1+1 = 3
You cannot just purely use Scripture. By being alive, experiences count too. This is how we can activate and stimulate the Scripture given to us and transfer it into the Living Word of God.
The Asininity of the Trinity
GotQuestions.org promotes itself as the resource for answers to questions about God and the Bible on the Internet. They describe their mission as follows: “Just as in any other field, the Internet is a battlefield. This is equally true in the spiritual realm. The cults, false religions, and other semi-Christian groups have websites as well. Some of these sites perform much the same function that we do. The answers these sites provide are often very unbiblical and lead searching people down a false path – potentially to their own spiritual destruction…. So, the GotQuestions staff began to pray, how could we prevent people from visiting these unbiblical sites?” So how do we know they are not giving unbiblical answers that lead people down a false path? Don’t other religious organizations also believe they are using the Bible properly to answer questions? Which one doesn’t think they are right, or admits they are wrong? Consider!
I would consider that every biblical answer, from any source, should be in agreement with biblical answers from any other source, as the Word of God is infallible. If GotQuestions says God is coloured blue, then any other commentator or teacher should say that God is blue as well as it says so in Scripture. Maybe light blue, dark blue, royal blue, sky blue, cyan or even with a purple hue. But generally blue. Otherwise someone would be wrong.
“Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the hearts” (Proverbs 21:2 HNV).
The Bible can tell us whether one uses it correctly or not, but only if properly understood and applied by the grace of God. For example, proposing to prevent people from visiting “unbiblical sites” is an unbiblical, false way.
I agree, Scripture tells us this.
So GotQuestions are not qualifying their remarks properly, they should have explained what happened after they had prayed and perhaps they could have said God was silent, enabling them to go onto acknowledge the Scriptural verses you cite.
GotQuestions prominently teaches and defends the trinity. The teaching of the trinity, a diabolical and confounded misrepresentation of God, is one of the prominent indicators that you are dealing with a cult. While we have thoroughly refuted this error in several writings in Jesus Christ Is God, we will now answer GotQuestions’ arguments and the Scriptures they present on their site, demonstrating how unreasonable, speculative, and unbiblical the trinity is, according to the very same Scriptures in which they think to find the evidence that proves it.
Everything depends on what you mean as ‘Trinity’
Here is the question posed on their site:
Question: “What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?”
They begin:
“The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to adequately explain it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.”
A wrong position as anything from God can be explained.
If it is impossible to explain, why try? If impossible to understand, how do they understand and know they are speaking the truth? Are they not in confusion and condemned out of their own mouths as liars from the get-go for trying to convince you of something they say is incomprehensible?
No. They are guilty of being lazy by not explaining it.
If they don’t understand God, how can you believe what they say about Him? They might answer that you need to take their knowledge “by faith,” but faith is the evidence of things not seen, not speculation or opinion about what is invisible to outward sight. That is anything but evidence.
Yes, yes so true!
Are not Trinitarians worshiping what they do not know?
Probably.
If someone is unable to explain something, his understanding of it is what should be questioned rather than the complexity of the subject matter or his powers of expression. Plainly the authors of GotQuestions admit they don’t understand (and deny you can understand), which makes them self-confessed blind leaders of the blind, with everyone ending up in the ditch.
Perfectly put.
Lacking revelation knowledge of Him, the religious professors of faith who trust in themselves conceive complicated explanations, from their own minds, for the false gods they have formed in His Name, calling them, among other things, the trinity. The trinity god is a mystery, which its worshippers confess no man can comprehend. Yet you are called to bow down with them to this mystery, worshiping what they “know not.” The unknowing and ignorant are caught in the net, made subject to the superstitious and false religion called “orthodox Christianity,” which is full of error (see The True Marks of a Cult and Diabolical Doctrines). The keepers of the orthodox gate entangle their captives with an incomprehensible god one can never know. And how can you trust what you don’t know or understand? To top it off, the fact that the trinity can’t be explained is supposed to convince you of its validity. What a scam! This is Mystery at work! “Mystery,” if you are not familiar, is the short name for “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth,” who is drunk with the blood of the saints she has murdered (physically and spiritually) from the very beginning. She wields her power through darkness and lies couched in truths. She threatens with eternal torment in hell if you don’t accept her inexplicable tri-part god.
A strong Christian lady got quite exasperated when I said I pray to Jesus, advising I should pray to The Father, in Jesus’ Name. Why I asked, Jesus is God. It didn’t go down too well, a feature of the entanglement you speak of.
GotQuestions is a servant of Mystery, which explains why they have not “Got Answers.”
Brilliant!
Knowing Jesus Christ is knowing God, because they are One and the Same. If the Father is the only true God, then Jesus Christ cannot be a separate Being Who is also God. Jesus Christ is either God, the Father come in the flesh, or He is not God at all.
Yes.
Listen to the contemptible confusion GotQuestions peddles in the Name of Christ, presuming to explain Him without knowing Him: “The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God…The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods.”
It sure seems like it is suggesting three Gods though.
What twaddle! How are “three Persons” not “three Gods”? Oh yes, we are told this is inexplicable. Well, we will explain how wickedly stupid and wrong such thinking is, because it calls the Lord a liar when He says He is the only One and Singular God, with no God beside Him (Isaiah 45:5,21). Line up three “Persons” – “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” – and there are Gods beside each other, are there not?
Maybe not.
Trinitarians treat Jesus Christ like the Koran does. Islam presumes to honor Christ by calling Him a prophet, yet denies He is the Son of God. Trinitarians presume to honor Christ by calling Him “the second Person of the Godhead” while denying He is the One True God and Father.
That is a really good point!
John 14:8-9 EMTV (8) Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” (9) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He that has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
(By the way, how is the Son co-equal with the Father if He is the second Person, commanded and given for the sins of mankind by the Father, Who is first? And how is it the Father knows things the Son does not if they are co-equal?) What shameless impudence to insist the Bible teaches what is never mentioned in it – the trinity – and to condemn those who do not accept this manmade concept, especially those who refute the polytheistic jumble by declaring Him, of Whom the Bible is all about, the One True God and Lord Jesus Christ. In order to promote the doctrine of the trinity, the writers of GotQuestions read into what the Scriptures say according to their natural minds and indoctrination of men.
The Bible of course is about God’s struggles, not ours. It is His-story about His efforts to embrace a family He Has Created – history not mystery.
No matter what translation you’re using, the full meaning of God’s Plural Nature is right there in the Genesis text. Millions have been chasing rabbits for millennia, hunting and theorizing about God’s reference to Himself in the plural, as evidence of a trinity. They’ve been soiled by indoctrination of men and been blind to the simple truth. A revealing question to ask ourselves: If God is a trinity, and He made man in His image, how is it we don’t find ourselves having the nature of a trinity? Yes, a man is body, soul, and spirit, but that doesn’t make him three co-equal persons. A man may fulfill three roles, as say, husband, father, and son, or engineer, artist, and singer, but it doesn’t make him three beings. So what’s the answer?
The many answers given and the many quotes of Scripture that you point out are all correct of course and valid points to boot. The term of ‘Trinity’ does itself no favours.
Don’t go for the lame excuse that the “subordination within the trinity” “is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God.” If understanding were not possible, then why would these religious teachers bother with the illustrations and arguments they so diligently conceive and propagate to convince? There are not three individual “Persons” Who make up God. There is only Jesus Christ, God made manifest in death.
I agree. Even assuming the Trinity (as generally portrayed) had substance; any line of subordination within it would be impossible. How can a thought be subordinate to an idea?
Are there three bodies? No. Are there three faiths? No. Are there three baptisms? No, though there is water baptism, this passage speaks of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the new birth, of which there is only one. Are there three Gods (Persons or whatever one wants to call “Them”)? No! Think about this: Without the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no such thing as “God the Father,” because one can only be born again through Christ. No Christ, no Father.
Although God is Our Father in Heaven.
“For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father” (Ephesians 2:18 MKJV). “No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6 EMTV)
Look, here’s the thing.
God Himself can invent or create the communication He feels we would need in order to know Him. The Trinity is not too hard to explain, even though there are many Christians who just bizarrely say it is beyond our understanding. Rather it can be, if so desired, a fantastic way of understanding the Character of God and what the Scriptures are getting at. The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit do not represent three Persons as we would imagine them for counting purposes, do not engage in a counting sequence of 1+1+1 = 3. It is better to describe the Trinity more like 1x1x1 = 1. Lest we forget, we don’t have the mental capacity that can match the Mind of God we just don’t, so there are great obscurities we are not obliged to know, therefore we cannot insist on appreciating all the ingredients of God because to be able to do so would make us as God too. It is a bit too easy to just say we are coming up with twaddle when constructing a Holy Trinity.
Many times when discussing the Trinity, it is questioned as to how a Christian can believe in three Gods as you indeed infer, (polytheism) and yet at the same time declare that there is only one God (monotheism). Muslims don’t have this problem; Jewish people don’t have this problem, but Christians? We have to make it difficult don’t we! But why should God be easy to understand? God by His very nature must be above and beyond what we can intellectually get to grips with, which is why God has to come to us and reached out to us, and given us the means of communication through the medium of prayer. Whilst the Trinity is not specifically mentioned in Scripture and therefore the term ‘Trinity’ may be wrong, His Personality and Omnipresence so finds God in every atom of existence. Trying to understand God by then analysing billions of different atoms would be impossible. Has God suggested just THREE ‘Elements’ so that we can cope?
At the start our relationship with God was tangible, open and invigorating because everything was perfect, within a beautiful Garden created specifically for man and woman. A theme evolves, after the collapse of our sinless natural world, of God doing most of the approaching and it is evident that humanity often turns its back on these advances. Eventually He actually gives everything by way of His Son. And it is this Scriptural Event that gives a hue of support to the Trinity layout. It is here we are to deal with the image of three distinct Persons. We now have God the Son alongside God the Spirit and God the Father, not placed by any hierarchy format, the Father is not greater than the Son or the Spirit, but in position as three equal and approachable figures of the same one God. The concept of a Triune God is not that extraordinary, it is not impossible to see three components as one, and the list is long. A good person might be analysed as having a good word for everyone, a good spirit and who labours to do good things. An object will have depth, height and length. And as Mark Twain said, “There are three kinds of lies, lies, damned lies and statistics”. There is the time-space arena of the past, the present and the future and so on and so forth.
So it is normal, just plain normal to describe something as ‘more than one creation’ if it has any complexity about it at all. Take your hand. If you had to say make an Alien understand what your hand was, over a radio transmission, you would possibly say that it could (a) grip (hold, twist, carry) it can (b) strike (punch, prod, slap) and it can (c) signal (wave, point, warn). You may alternatively say that your hand is made of skin, bone and blood. The one thing that would be unhelpful would be to just say it’s a hand. Likewise it is not much assistance to gain a picture of God by just saying God is God. Although the design of a hand is fantastic, we have to accept that even its multipart functions and abilities are a fair degree easier to explain overall, than it is to describe the form of God. The teaching of a Trinity perception to illustrate the make-up of God is a perfectly reasonable action to take, considering all the information we have available to us, if we want to describe Him.
A passage in the Bible in John 14:28 finishes with Jesus saying, “The Father is greater than I”. Now, there is no question that this statement makes you think that Jesus must be subservient to God (Father). However, when you wipe away that initial impulse it becomes crystal clear that Jesus is not positioned in some kind of Holy pecking order, placing Him in second or even third place. When God assumed human nature, He was taken down a level (as in the Son) according to Scripture to a level, which was lower than the Angels (Hebrews 2:9). Nevertheless, at the very same time as being human, Jesus was also 100% God. So although fully human (and therefore lower than the Angels) Jesus was also fully God (higher than the Angels); Jesus had to remain being God. What Jesus was pointing out by saying the Father was greater, is that in His human form Jesus actually made Himself temporarily yet fully ‘lower’. Jesus deliberately barred Himself from using the bulk of the divine powers that He could have used whilst living as a man.
It is hard to get this all across and I am no expert and cannot profess to be accurate, however the Bible is accurate and is written by experts, therefore a better explanation can be read in Philippians 2: 5-7. The differences in hierarchy alluded to come about because of the different roles that needed to be taken due to the unique circumstances. We should consider the fact that different roles or temporary assignments, do not have to alter equality relationships. We must surely appreciate that the complexities of understanding a Triune God is not complex to God, it is very simple. God has shown us a way of understanding His Nature by a very simple format. In reality, we could never understand His true Quality but we can get a glimpse by looking at the separate Persons He has given us.
Father. A child will just call out “Daddy” (or Mummy) under the very basic understanding of knowing that this particular man/woman are above and better than any others, there is a bond of love, trust and security in force (at least there should be). The child will have no concept at all that daddy goes out to work and earns money to provide a home, no idea where food comes from or how daddy maintains and fuels a car. It all just happens. All the baby will do is cry out the word daddy, everything else just happens. Our understanding of “Our Father in Heaven…” is extremely basic; we have no idea how He upholds the Universe let alone how He hears any of our prayers.
Spirit. Further, a child has no notion that daddy’s spirit jumps with joy when baby smiles for the first time, how mummy’s whole thought processes had been bound up with baby as the birth had taken place, how everyone had a spring in their step at the sight of baby’s first tooth. Likewise, we have only a whisper of knowledge about how the Holy Spirit is tied to the springs in our good intentions, good works and good will. However, just like with the Person of the Father, the Person of the Spirit is revealed so that we might have some understanding of God. To say the Holy Spirit is a separate Person is not correct, in my view anyway. The Holy Spirit IS The Father, Our Father in Heaven.
Son. Representing the Body of God, the Person of Jesus Christ generally takes the biggest hits from our lack of knowledge. A baby has no idea of the workings of a body, no idea of the heart, the brain or the nervous system. Again, we have little perception of the true nature involved in the atomic construction of a Being that already exists within all the atoms! Our ignorance is so intolerable we destroyed the Body of Christ and we verbally annihilate His Name at any given opportunity in this modern world.
God could never be born of a woman anyway; the woman would have exploded in the nanosecond of conception (even if Immaculate). The birth of Jesus was God in human form but supervised and watched over by Jesus-God in Heaven (through Himself) by His Holy Spirit. I reiterate that knowing and understanding God is only possible if God comes to us. He has done this. He has come to us as a Heavenly Father, as Jesus Christ and as the Holy Spirit, because this is the best way to help us understand, just a little bit, the Mind of God. He has not just said, “I am God – accept it!” He has not bombarded us with a billion different features of His profile, the bulk of which we would never understand and therefore never accept. He has not offered us fixed proof either because again, we would not believe any given, as it would just melt our senses. No. God has given us the most perfect way in which to reach out and know Him, a way that is soft to our brittle senses and in a way that is easy to understand, easy for anyone.
GotQuestions may be imperfect as they say this: The employer has the right to make demands of the employee, and the employee has the obligation to serve the employer. The roles clearly define a subservient relationship. However, both people are still human beings and share in the same human nature. There is no difference between the two as to their essence; they stand as equals. The fact that one is an employer and the other is an employee does nothing to alter the essential equality of these two individuals as human beings. The same can be said of the members of the Trinity. All three members (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are essentially equal; i.e., they are all divine in nature. However, in the grand plan of redemption, they play certain roles, and these roles define authority and subservience. The Father commands the Son, and the Father and the Son command the Holy Spirit. This is where Trinity explanations become too obtuse and overlaid by human structuring. Such rationalizations, despite claims to the contrary, split God in three. It demotes the true fabric of a Trinity casing from God. It creates some kind of triple split personality instead. The common stance from many Christians of a Trinity of three Persons misses the higher Truth. God is not three Persons because quite simply He is not a Person, He is God. However, just as light breaks down into the spectrum when it slows, maybe God is slowing Himself or splitting Himself purely for our benefit to help us understand because we are only human. No such requirement is needed for the Seraphin, they understand and can withstand His Purity, although even they have to shield their eyes. We cannot shield our eyes or our minds from the Awesomeness of God, it would be futile to try.
I have a feeling you are going to correct me on all this, so I am battening down the hatches as I await your hurricane!
Best regards
Terence
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: Terence
Cc: Paul Cohen
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: The Trinity – Continued
Hi Terence,
I answer excerpts from your Nov. 16 letter:
“You cannot just purely use Scripture. By being alive, experiences count too. This is how we can activate and stimulate the Scripture given to us and transfer it into the Living Word of God.”
To understand the things of God is a work of God and not man. We understand nothing without the grace of revelation. Terence, your problem is trust in the flesh, in your understanding. One can only understand the things of God by revelation, as Jesus said to Nicodemus and as Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 2).
“I would consider that every biblical answer, from any source, should be in agreement with biblical answers from any other source, as the Word of God is infallible.”
And there’s the problem: What DOES the Bible say? Who but God knows, and to whom He reveals all matters pertaining to the Kingdom of Heaven?
“‘Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the hearts’ (Proverbs 21:2 HNV).”
Which Lord?
“Everything depends on what you mean as ‘Trinity’”
Very true.
“No. They are guilty of being lazy by not explaining it.”
Would you say all those who can’t explain the trinity are lazy?
“A strong Christian lady got quite exasperated when I said I pray to Jesus, advising I should pray to The Father, in Jesus’ Name. Why I asked, Jesus is God. It didn’t go down too well, a feature of the entanglement you speak of.”
You might have asked her who it was Stephen was praying to when they stoned him, and to whom John prayed at the closing of his book (“Yes, come, Lord Jesus.”).
“The Trinity is not too hard to explain, even though there are many Christians who just bizarrely say it is beyond our understanding.”
Have you ever wondered why there are so many nominal Christians who say it’s not only hard, but impossible to explain?
“Lest we forget, we don’t have the mental capacity that can match the Mind of God we just don’t, so there are great obscurities we are not obliged to know, therefore we cannot insist on appreciating all the ingredients of God because to be able to do so would make us as God too.”
Yet the Scriptures testify that God’s plan and purpose has been to create us in His image and to know all things. Isn’t that what Jesus and John declared?
“However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come” (John 16:13 MKJV).
“But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things” (1 John 2:20 MKJV).
“But the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true and no lie, and as He has taught you, abide in Him” (1 John 2:27 MKJV).
I am made in God’s image, yet I am not three, but one.
“It is a bit too easy to just say we are coming up with twaddle when constructing a Holy Trinity.”
Twaddle is twaddle, easily identified by those who know it for what it is. And you haven’t answered the substance of our arguments, whether in this specific instance of twaddle identified and addressed or anywhere else throughout our paper.
What twaddle! How are “three Persons” not “three Gods”? Oh yes, we are told this is inexplicable. Well, we will explain how wickedly stupid and wrong such thinking is, because it calls the Lord a liar when He says He is the only One and Singular God, with no God beside Him (Isaiah 45:5,21). Line up three “Persons” – “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” – and there are Gods beside each other, are there not?
According to GotQuestions’ doctrine, there could actually be a fourth God, “the Trinity,” which exists in these three other “Persons.” When any of these three “Persons” speaks, it is the fourth God, the combined “Trinity Personality,” speaking through the individual Person-God. Such confusion!
No, there is only one God, Who speaks with one Mind and one Voice. There are not several gods conferring and/or speaking separately. There are not Three Persons thinking the same thoughts simultaneously, making each other redundant.
Let me explain something that could help you understand, using the same wording of GotQuestions – God exists in me, in the way He has in many people from the time of Christ’s resurrection and the giving of His Spirit:
“You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He [not “They”] Who is in you is greater than he who is in the world” (1 John 4:4 MKJV).
Yet, though God exists in me, I am not God. And though I am one with God, as Jesus prayed I would be, I am still not God:
“Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that You sent Me” (John 17:20-21 HNV).
(Where, by the way, is the Holy Spirit, Who is supposed to be one with the Son and the Father? Why doesn’t the Son mention Him?)
According to the trinitarian doctrine and the rationale proposed by GotQuestions (“God existing in three Persons”), these words must be taken to mean that I am also God, since I am one with Him, like Jesus, and exist in Him. And, in a way I am God, but only as a member of His Body, or more precisely, He exists partially through me, as Paul the apostle writes of himself:
“I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf” (Galatians 2:20 MKJV).
So we can see that existing or being in God does not make one God Himself. God exists in me and I am one with Him by the cross of Christ, yet I am not God. Therefore, God existing in Jesus did not make Him one Person of a Three-God-Person trinity. According to His Own words and works, He was either God Himself in the flesh, or He was only a man.
“Trying to understand God by then analysing billions of different atoms would be impossible. Has God suggested just THREE ‘Elements’ so that we can cope?”
You speak of carnal understanding. God, the writers of the Scriptures and the apostles, prophets and saints speak of an understanding beyond, and totally unlike, carnal understanding.
“A theme evolves, after the collapse of our sinless natural world, of God doing most of the approaching and it is evident that humanity often turns its back on these advances.”
“Most of the approaching”? “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11). Humanity turned its back in Adam and Eve in the Garden. That has never changed, but by God’s “approaching,” that is, grace.
“The concept of a Triune God is not that extraordinary, it is not impossible to see three components as one, and the list is long.”
Go tell that to the multitudes of so-called well-studied theologians who declare that the concept of a Triune God is mysterious and extraordinary, not to mention the muddled millions of all denominations professing faith in Christ. And show us an example of “triunity” in His creation, where His glory is manifestly full of spiritual parables and metaphors.
“The teaching of a Trinity perception to illustrate the make-up of God is a perfectly reasonable action to take, considering all the information we have available to us, if we want to describe Him.”
Did Jesus Christ or any of the prophets or apostles teach a trinity, whether before He manifest Himself in the flesh, during, or after?
“The Bible of course is about God’s struggles, not ours. It is His-story about His efforts to embrace a family He Has Created – history not mystery.”
Struggles? We think not. God didn’t create problems for Himself that He struggles to solve. His plan was set from the beginning and destined for the perfect conclusion, man made in His image.
As for mystery, there are many, and only by God’s grace can we understand, which He has granted those born of His Spirit, who understand not with the intellect, but by His Spirit and Mind, by a new nature, here, in this world, not being of it.
“Jesus actually made Himself temporarily yet fully ‘lower’.”
Question: You say Jesus made Himself a little lower? That is what the Scriptures declare. Other Scriptures also say it was the Father Who gave His Son, so which is it…unless God is One and not three persons?
“however the Bible is accurate and is written by experts,”
“Experts”? Were Peter, John, James and Jude “experts,” for example? And didn’t Paul count his former expertise as dung?
Here’s what Peter had to say about “expertise,” whether man’s or God’s:
“For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21 MKJV).
No, Terence, you have it wrong. As I said, your focus is on man’s understanding and not God’s.
“We must surely appreciate that the complexities of understanding a Triune God is not complex to God, it is very simple.”
Understanding God is about God giving understanding to His own:
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight” (Matthew 11:25-26 MKJV).
You’re on the wrong path, Terence; you have yet to come to the Crossroad and choose the narrow, unbeaten path.
“God has given us the most perfect way in which to reach out and know Him, a way that is soft to our brittle senses and in a way that is easy to understand, easy for anyone.”
Sorry, Terence, you are man-focused; it is error. You haven’t known the Father through the Son.
“I have a feeling you are going to correct me on all this, so I am battening down the hatches as I await your hurricane!”
You can judge for yourself. I can only say, in friendly response to your friendliness, you need to humble yourself before God:
Proverbs 3:5-8 MKJV
(5) Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
(6) In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
(7) Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and depart from evil.
(8) Healing shall be to your navel and marrow to your bones.
The sum of the matter is as described well by at least two men of God:
“But He’s already made it plain how to live, what to do, what GOD is looking for in men and women. It’s quite simple: Do what is fair and just to your neighbor, be compassionate and loyal in your love, And don’t take yourself too seriously– take God seriously. Attention! GOD calls out to the city! If you know what’s good for you, you’ll listen. So listen, all of you! This is serious business”
(Micah 6:8-9 MSG).
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep His commandments. For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good, or whether evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 MKJV).
Best regards
Terence
Thank you, Terence.
Victor
From: Terence
To: Victor Hafichuk and Paul Cohen
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 4:27 AM
Subject: John 1:1
Hello Victor/Paul,
I have e-mailed you in the past and I have really appreciated your responses.
If you have any time available I would appreciate any comments you have regarding the Sahidic Coptic findings.
Mainly regarding the debate over John 1:1
The literal translation says that the Word was a God instead of was God.
Whilst I have not lost any battle with Jehovah Witness followers, I have been bruised.
Any insight, encouragement or information would be very valuable.
Best regards
Terence
From: Paul and Victor
To: Terence
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: John 1:1
Hi Terence,
We’re not language scholars and aren’t familiar or versed in the arguments of Jehovah Witnesses about the “Sahidic Coptic findings” and John 1:1. But we do know the Lord Jesus Christ, Almighty God, Whom the Jehovah Witnesses don’t know. Therefore, how can they understand the Scriptures that are all about Him?
“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about Me. But you are unwilling to come to Me, so that you may have life” (John 5:39-40 EMTV).
As we wrote to you before:
“To understand the things of God is a work of God and not man. We understand nothing without the grace of revelation. Terence, your problem is trust in the flesh, in your understanding. One can only understand the things of God by revelation, as Jesus said to Nicodemus and as Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 2).”
You need to know what the Lord requires of you, not only generally, but specifically, for your own good and salvation. Read Obedience.
Paul and Victor
Notes:
Greek to English: In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word
Sahidic Coptic to English: In the beginning existed the word and the word existed with the god and a god was the word
From: Terence
To: The Path of Truth
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:12 AM
Subject: False Teachers
Hi Victor/Paul,
It has been a couple of years I think since I last e-mailed
“Thank goodness” you probably cry 🙂
I have been waiting for David Pawson to be added to your list of False Teachers
I am so glad that this has not happened (phew)
I have several of his books that have helped me with my readings in the Bible
Particularly one called ‘Unlocking The Bible’
I know you will shout at me that I should ONLY read the Bible but sometimes its nice to have help
Of course your website itself is helpful too, especially as you cover so many topics
Anyway, I write to ask what you think of the Biologos Forum
Maybe you have commented before and I have missed it
Personally the Forum makes me feel very uncomfortable and I think it is all wrong
They seem to be very clever but I cannot marry their ideas with Scripture
No need to reply to this, although a reply would be welcome
I do understand you are very busy with more important discussions
In the meantime, many thanks for reading this
Best regards
Terence
From: Paul and Victor
To: Terence
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: False Teachers
“No need to reply to this, although a reply would be welcome
I do understand you are very busy with more important discussions”
You’re right, Terence, but should consider the implications for your sake, not ours. Re-read our last letter to you (included below).
We’re not aware of the Biologos Forum and have no comment at present. We also have never heard of David Pawson. But just because he isn’t on our False Teachers list doesn’t mean he is sent by God. The fact that our listing of him would shake your world tells you that your world isn’t founded on The Rock.
Paul and Victor