Carla Rolfe’s original blog posting:
So I get an email yesterday from someone I don’t know. Normally I don’t click on those but the subject line was interesting (“The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin”) so I did. Here’s what it said:
“The following paper will be of interest and pertinence to you for possibly several reasons among many. It has been our great honor to discern and identify the error and spirit of John Calvin, whose rule is yet propagated in the hearts of men with evil consequences for all. The Lord Jesus Christ has visited us with the Light of His countenance to put an end to this evil, justifying His servants whom Calvin murdered, and His Name in the sight of all. Show me whom you follow, and I will know what manner of person you are or will become. If you do not know whom you are following, don’t you think it is time to find out how and where you are being led? Do you think you will altogether escape the consequences because ignorant? Think again. You already suffer them. John Calvin was one of the most vicious of wolves ever to pose as a lamb of God. His supremely self-righteous spirit lives on in those who lionize and follow him, even unbeknownst to themselves. Truly, ‘that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.’”
In my feverish, flu-ish state yesterday, I actually thought the subject line read “the murder of John Calvin”. Obviously, after reading the email I realized that’s not what it said. Ahem. Yeah, like I’ve never gotten an email like this before? I get them quite a bit, in fact. Usually though, they come from anon emails that have no website or anything attached. This one had a website to go along with it! They also list a bunch of other false teachers (Kirk Cameron, John Piper, and everyone else under the sun, except for them, of course), false teachings (the list is huge), and some section all about farming/communal type living. w00t… communal carrots! It was all very exciting. Like watching paint dry.
Here’s the thing. I get being concerned about the purity of God’s church. I am concerned about it myself. I get being concerned about holy living and doctrinal truth, I care about those things too. I can even understand putting together an entire site to point out the errors out there, that’s what Emergent No was all about. What I don’t get, and will never get as long as I live, are professing Christians that have so much seething hatred for other professing Christians that you question if they might not spontaneously combust at any moment. In other words, where’s the grace? Where’s the understanding that YOU or me or the guy down the road confessing the Lord as God isn’t merely a sinner saved by God’s grace? I’m no better than you, and I’m no better than the meth junkie peddling his goodies on the street corner. All men are made in the image of God and all men are called to repentance. His sins might be different than mine but he needs God’s grace just as much as I do. I don’t get to sit on my high horse and look down my self-righteous nose at him because he’s not saved, or at anyone else because they’re in a different doctrinal place than I am. What I do get to do, purely by God’s grace, is exhort fellow believers to take a high and holy road (standard for living), exhort them also to take a high view of Scripture, and share the gospel (in whatever context He puts me in – which is usually not dealing with meth junkies) with the unsaved.
So loosely translated, here’s what that email actually said:
“We picked you special, because you follow John Calvin and he was a demon, wake up you moron! We’re really smart and we’ve been told by God Himself that Calvin was evil, and He put us in charge of putting an end to his evil teachings. You’re ignorant, and you can’t see that following a murderer is going to turn you into one, and since you already follow him, it’s really important that you wake up now! Hurry, read our webpage and you’ll be enlightened like we are, and will no longer follow evil murderers. Love always, communal carrot people.”
Yep, that’s what it really said. No grace, no real interest in educating anyone, but a clear focus in enjoying exposing what they believe is the wickedness of John Calvin (among many many other current and former names among the Christian church). This, coupled with the idea that anyone who can appreciate anything Calvin ever taught, is a follower of him. What if Calvin grew carrots, then what? Would these zealous communal carrot people then become dogmatic, communal snow pea people? Somehow, I get the feeling that they would, just so they wouldn’t be associated with him at all, even agriculturally.
So the bottom line…
Don’t ever send me email like this when I have the flu. I will blog about it. Wait, that’s not the bottom line, but it’s close. Here’s the bottom line:
1. I don’t follow John Calvin, and I’ve never read The Institutes, so there.
2. God’s grace is for all who heed the call to repent, and follow Christ. Even Calvin, and carrot people.
3. Joy – where is that? Is it in God, or is it in tearing down people? Give that some thought.
4. I still have the flu, and I may regret posting this, when I’m better. Although I doubt it right now.
5. I prefer snow peas anyway.
Ah, you are marvellous, you know that. Get well soon (I do love that cultural message of goodwill – like bossing people who are sick will comfort them)
Libbie | Homepage | 03.10.08 – 7:35 am | #
“Don’t ever send me email like this when I have the flu. I will blog about it.” Whoa. Scary, that. 🙂
Adding my voice to bossy Libbie’s: get well soon!
GrammaMack | 03.10.08 – 8:57 am | #
Spot on, Carla ~ spot on.
Hope you feel better and better today! 🙂
Joyce Burrows | Homepage | 03.10.08 – 9:13 am | #
Please visit our Calvinist site TheAmericanView.com. We dare you!
John Lofton, Recovering Republ | Homepage | 03.10.08 – 2:28 pm | #
Excellent and amusing!
Kristina | Homepage | 03.10.08 – 4:24 pm | #
Victor’s reply to Carla:
Carla, I, Victor Hafichuk, address you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Whose unworthy servant I am, saying that in all conviction, honesty and sincerity. By His grace I am what I am and speak to you.
You are pugnacious, aren’t you? A fighter. Clever, sharp-witted (so you think), humorous, entertaining men and glorying in the pleasure you think to bring them. Allow me to address some of the things you say.
“Yeah, like I’ve never gotten an email like this before? I get them quite a bit, in fact.”
That is not true. There will not be one letter/paper like ours in spirit and substance that you have received. Prove us wrong, publicly. You already point out one major difference, in that you say, “Usually though, they come from anon emails that have no website or anything attached.” We get those too, but we are not as them. Therefore, we are not afraid of these boastful and threatening words you also speak:
“Don’t ever send me email like this when I have the flu. I will blog about it.”
Why are we not afraid?
“But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his works may be revealed, that they exist, having been worked in God” (John 3:21 MKJV).
However, while you are bold, Carla, your confidence is in the flesh, never having received the Spirit of God. Your words are ungodly words, are they not? And your audience is impressed? And you testify that you are Christ’s? Your testimony does not witness in Heaven, Carla. We speak from Heaven, the possibility and claim of which is something you will scorn, but it is true, even as the Lord promised, indeed commanded, it would be for all those who are His. “As My Father has sent Me, so I send you.”
Your conversion is real, but not of God. You are born again from beneath and not from above, and we have proven and will prove it. Indeed, you already prove it and we will point it out that you and others may possibly fear and repent.
So you despise organic farming and doing things the way they ought to be done in God’s creation, rather than employing mercenary and destructive agricultural methods promoted by the petrochemical multinationals who rape the world – with your help. You mock us. Do you think God mocks treating His creation with respect? You say of our farm and its example, “Like watching paint dry.”
We hear your testimony, Carla, both on your tape and these, your contemptuous comments. Are you a traffic stopper? Your testimony on audio may impress some religious, but it is dry; it is dead. There isn’t even any peeling paint (nothing showing signs of there ever being life). You have never had the joy of the Lord you ask about concerning us. Perhaps to you, you live, but to God, you are dead:
“I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and are dead” (Revelation 3:1 MKJV).
The Lord spoke those words to the Sardis church, to saints in need of correction, but they also apply to you, though you are not His, because you do have a name, at least with a few people, but you are dead.
Yes, we are to beware of false teachers and speak out against them, “reproving the works of darkness,” as the Scriptures direct, and you don’t like it. Why not? Why do you criticize us for not including ourselves among those we identify as false, for the sake of seekers of truth and of the Lord?
Should Elijah have had the people apprehend him with the 450 prophets of Baal? Foolish woman – you speak not to give truth and counsel but to show off; it is wickedness in God’s sight, though you are proud of it. And you call that the joy of the Lord? We don’t believe you. Should anyone?
And you say, “I get being concerned about holy living”? How so? Are you setting the example as you speak? Your response is full of sarcasm, ridicule, false accusation, condemnation of good things, misrepresentation, and you call that “holy living”? Who do you think you are fooling?
“What I don’t get, and will never get as long as I live, are professing Christians that have so much seething hatred….”
You don’t get much of anything in terms of truth, Carla. There is no seething hatred here at all – not for people. You are judging after the appearance, against Christ’s command, and accusing falsely, as the daughter of the one who specializes in precisely that practice. And you call yourself a Christian?
However, God has given us to write the Calvin paper to address that very thing – seething hatred – and to make others aware of how Calvin practiced it, even to the death of the saints. We let others know that, as they identify spiritually with Calvin in any way, whether professing to follow him or Christ, they bring reproach to Christ, Who had nothing whatsoever to do with Calvin. What can we say? Are we wrong for exposing evil and warning? If you have little or nothing to do with Calvin, then you have nothing to fret about in that regard, even with a flu. Nevertheless, the occasion has served to expose your fallacy.
Did not prophets of old speak up against religious hypocrisy and false teachers? So what is wrong with that? If you are concerned about holy living and doctrinal truth, then why so closed to what we have to say? Do you really have that concern or is it that you are concerned that we all have your doctrine? Should we have your “holy living” too? If you want doctrinal truth, and care about it as much as you claim, then you will read The True Marks of a Cult. You will also read Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian? In these writings, you will find that you are a liar, a phony, Carla (and so many with you – the crowd that takes the wide gate and broad way), not according to our opinions, to which we do declare we and others are not entitled, but according to the Word of God and the Life and doctrine of Jesus Christ Himself.
You come at us with daggers for words, with cynicism and scorn, to damage and to hurt, but we come to you in the Name of the Lord, with words of truth, to deliver from destruction. While you blaspheme the Lord you claim to serve, we bear it patiently, and will prevail. There is no “seething hatred” for any person, not even flu-ish and flawed, vicious you, but we do not apologize for hating the hypocrisy and falsehood you believe and spread to others in the precious Name of the Lord, Who shed His blood for better things.
“I’m no better than you, and I’m no better than the meth junkie peddling his goodies on the street corner.”
What you say is true, yet you think you are better off because while the junkie does his thing, you think to be with more knowledge and spreading good, whereas you, in your “enlightenment,” perceive that he spreads evil, isn’t that so?
Yet, what you spread is as bad, if not worse than, what he spreads, because you preach a false gospel (yes, false) and you do so in the Name of Jesus Christ, Who died for you and the junkie, while the junkie does neither of those. He is what he is but you pretend to be something you are not, a tare posing as wheat, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
And you excuse yourself with a flu for your unregenerate nature. You are a liar, Carla, and an unrepentant one at that. The junkies enter the Kingdom ahead of those who are twice the children of Hell as their proselytizers.
I heard your testimony. Though there may have been manifest changes in your life, you remain unregenerate. In other words, your conversion is spurious and superficial. Do I judge unrighteously? Surely, you will accuse me and say, “Only God knows the hearts.” But no, the Lord did say, “Beware of false prophets; you will know them by their fruits,” and He has given His spiritual gifts to those who have received Him, one of those being the gift of discernment.
You know none of these things. Indeed, you are the one who judges evilly, speaks without knowledge, and contemns the holy things of God and Christ Himself. You condemn yourself with every word you speak and write, in all self-righteousness.
You say we are self-righteous. How so? Because we “cry aloud, spare not, and tell the people their sins,” as we are commanded to do by the One you profess to love and worship? You worship “another Jesus” and preach “another gospel,” and your lies are manifest for even simple people to recognize, if they have a heart for truth at all.
Our righteousness is of the Lord, Carla, and you speak against Him, not confessing that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh. You open your ignorant and brash mouth to your own destruction.
Is it any wonder the Lord has come to you as a thief – unannounced and unexpectedly, and has found you gravely wanting? No, you have not received letters like ours, not one, and you know it, though you will not admit it:
“And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed” (John 3:19-20 MKJV).
No need to get clever and vicious with us. You need to hear the truth, so does everyone else, and we don’t need to hear lies, nor does anyone else. We are not here to promote ourselves, as you suppose, or play religious games, as do you and so many more.
You say we call others “morons.” You lie, Carla. Find in any of our sites or letters where we say any such thing. It was not by our cleverness or intelligence that we learned from the Lord. You suggest so because that is precisely where you have your confidence – in the flesh. The Lord Jesus has freely given us both the substance and the ability to receive it, and we freely give. Thirdly, He has assigned us that of which Enoch prophesied:
“And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him” (Jude 1:14-15 MKJV).
“I don’t get to sit on my high horse and look down my self-righteous nose at him because he’s not saved, or at anyone else because they’re in a different doctrinal place than I am.”
No? What have you just done with us, Carla? What would you call your derision and mockery?
Read the accolades you prize: “Spot on, Carla ~ spot on,” and, “Excellent and amusing!” And, “Ah, you are marvellous, you know that.” Joyce, Kristina and Libbie are impressed. Are these the reactions of believers or those of spectators at a sport? Is it Jesus Christ that is glorified? Are these people such that lay down their lives for the Lord or are they as you in all your ways?
You say we have said:
“We’ve been told by God Himself that Calvin was evil, and He put us in charge of putting an end to his evil teachings.”
While God has indeed told us Calvin is evil (and you don’t believe us because you don’t think God would do or did so) we do not claim He has put us in charge to put an end to his teachings, though we do so for some by speaking the truth when they believe the truth by our ministry. Our commission is to preach, even to such as you, who will snarl and spit with contempt, as you do.
We do battle with beasts, as Paul did in Ephesus, but we are thankful for the privilege of silencing loudmouths like yours. You are a showoff, Carla, a liar, a blasphemer, a proud, church-going, religious mocker of all that is good and holy and true, and all in His precious Name, which adds to your sin sevenfold.
Yes, you will scoff at everything we say, even as the Sodomites defied the messengers of God in Lot’s day, not discerning their time. We were duly warned by brothers Peter and Paul of such, as well as directly by the Lord, Who never changes.
You interpret us to say:
“You’re ignorant, and you can’t see that following a murderer is going to turn you into one, and since you already follow him, it’s really important that you wake up now!”
Yes, we do say you are ignorant. “For lack of knowledge My people perish,” the Lord says. Is that not ignorance? If those who are His perish for lack of knowledge, how much more those who are not? On your high horse you say you don’t mount, you think to be full of knowledge? No ignorance, Carla?
Are we wrong to tell you that following a murderer turns you into one? Why would God warn of such things?
“Blessed is the man who has not walked in the counsel of the ungodly, and has not stood in the way of sinners, and has not sat in the seat of the scornful” (Psalms 1:1 MKJV).
We also tell you that if one follows a murderer, it is likely because she is one herself, an unrepentant one, and that is what makes the difference between a false Christian and a true one – repentance and regeneration, neither of which has been your experience. In your conversion, as announced, you were snared by the harlot, who deceives the whole world. You can read Ode to a Harlot and Mystery. We speak so that you will know. It is a witness against you, yet for your sake.
Your “concern about the purity of God’s church” is misplaced. You happen to be speaking about the drunken woman who rides the beast, presuming to sit as queen, with her golden cup full of the blood of saints. One day, the Truth will prevail, though you hate it with passion. Yes, you hate it…with passion. You are still in your pride and sins.
“Love always, communal carrot people”? No high horse or looking down the nose here, right, Carla? No, all grace, right?
“Yep, that’s what it really said. No grace, no real interest in educating anyone, but a clear focus in enjoying exposing what they believe is the wickedness of John Calvin (among many many other current and former names among the Christian church).”
So I have shown you that is not what was really said. And you have shown us your brand of grace. Was it not time to expose your nakedness, Carla? I will tell you this, that if there is any passion with us, it is not hatred of men but jealousy for His House and Name, which you abuse.
No interest in educating anyone? Really? That is quite a judgment throne you have there. Are you not guilty of your own accusations of us? Have you red all that we write and seen what we have done, how we live, the price we pay to do so, and know why we do it? Has God revealed these things to you, Carla, or is your flu such that it is as hot water on a tea bag?
But we do indeed have a clear and God-given focus on Calvin and many false teachers, and we prove it, by the power and wisdom God has given us, those things you despise. It has been known to happen; the Scriptures declare it, but what use do you have for them, except to wrap yourself in a cloak of false piety for your own glory, as you manifest here?
“God’s grace is for all who heed the call to repent, and follow Christ. Even Calvin, and carrot people.”
That is why we preach, and you have not heeded as you claim. If you presume to preach to bring God’s grace to those you think not to have it, is it wrong for us to call people to repentance that they might receive the grace of God, especially when we have it and see that you don’t? Do you not contradict yourself? Your problem is that your definition of grace is “iniquity,” an excuse to do as you please because Christ died for you. It is wickedness. You may think our words to be stout against you and Calvin, but did not the Lord save His harshest words for hypocrites who presumed righteousness and had none?
“Carrot people”? “Spot on, Carla ~ spot on,” and, “Excellent and amusing!” And, “Ah, you are marvellous, you know that.”
Are you all praising the Lord? Are you all in reverence of His shed blood? We don’t think so. We see those who love the praise of men more than that of God.
“Joy – where is that? Is it in God, or is it in tearing down people? Give that some thought.”
And you call us “carrot people”? Oh, the joy you possess and express! Can you just hear the saints in Heaven with you now? Have you given these things any thought, Carla? And you accuse us of calling people “morons”?
You also wrote:
“I still have the flu, and I may regret posting this, when I’m better. Although I doubt it right now.”
There is no doubt in our minds that there will be not one ounce of regret on your part, flu or no flu, and that is why the Lord has sent us to speak.
Of the brethren of Christ, who, by His grace, love Him and obey,
Blog postings in response to Victor:
Victor, Could you explain your 666 Proverbs?
1. For example, #16 says “Do you know? Will you remember what you know?”
2. #66 says, “The air tells them that are in it.”
3. #83: “Foolish words spoken are as passing gas.”
4. #581: “While men sleep, God works; while men work, God sleeps.”
5. #600: “Why do men wear suits and ties? Because.”
You wrote, “A proverb can appear simple on the surface, stating the obvious, as even to give the impression that a simpleton speaks. However, as one contemplates the words and seeks a deeper meaning, he or she can be rewarded with counsel and an understanding that serves well in many applications of life.”
LisaN | 03.27.08 – 10:14 pm | #
… and just remember your Proverb #275 before responding: “Words hastily spoken are like lettuce on the teeth of one smiling.”
LisaN | 03.27.08 – 10:17 pm | #
So, I have a question for you too, Vic ole boy.
Why didn’t you abide by your Proverb #358?
#358: “Women scorn men publicly, but men complain of women among themselves.”
aconcernedcitizengal | 03.27.08 – 10:36 pm | #
And perhaps you forgot these proverbs of yours when you addressed Carla:
79. “Who speaks words loosely? Destroyer is his name.”
354. “Beware of the one trumpeting God and His goodness; he dresses in white to conceal his darkness.”
64. “Words can be like a stagnant pool or a lively brook.”
38. “Pretended virtue and sincere vice are one.”
aconcernedcitizengal | 03.27.08 – 10:40 pm | #
Yes, Lisa, I can explain those proverbs, to the extent that Jesus would or ought to explain parables to His enemies, as you seem to come across to Him now (we will see), and to multitudes to whom things were not given:
Matthew 13:9-15 MKJV
(9) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
(10) And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?
(11) He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.
(12) For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has.
(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
(14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, “By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;
(15) for this people’s heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”
Number one is for you, Carla, and your like friends.
Number two answers those who think servants of God cannot judge righteous judgment and know people after the spirit:
“Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24 MKJV).
“But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one” (1 Corinthians 2:15 MKJV).
“So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so” (2 Corinthians 5:16 MKJV).
You know Him only after the flesh, and not very well at that, not that it would avail you for salvation to know Him in any degree after the flesh.
Number three speaks of Carla’s response to us and comments by likeminded people.
Number four – The Lord has come to you as a thief.
Number five – Blind guides leading the blind, knowing little of what they speak and do, or why, as we witness here.
“You wrote: ‘A proverb can appear simple on the surface, stating the obvious, as even to give the impression that a simpleton speaks. However, as one contemplates the words and seeks a deeper meaning, he or she can be rewarded with counsel and an understanding that serves well in many applications of life.’
As for your skepticism of my statement, possibly perceiving a contradiction, the key words are “can appear,” just as many things have many appearances. Proverbs can also appear quite mysterious to many, as Solomon’s, yet simple to those who are given understanding from God.
Truly, it is not about carnal intelligence or knowledge of things, but about knowledge of God:
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and discipline” (Proverbs 1:7 JPS).
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25 MKJV).
“ … and just remember your Proverb #275 before responding: ‘Words hastily spoken are like lettuce on the teeth of one smiling.’”
I do try to remember and have not spoken lightly or hastily. We cannot help but stand before our God soberly. You see the trouble we take to reply to you, even though you scoff. How about you? Are you here to humbly learn or are you here to mock and show yourself clever before God?
“Let no one deceive herself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this world, let her become a fool so that she may be wise” (1 Corinthians 3:18 MKJV).
Paul writes to you: Lisa, the air tells us that there is nothing good coming out of your mouth. Let those who fear God consider what you are doing here. Are you proving anything Victor said to Carla is wrong? No, that you cannot do, so, being unrepentant of the same spirit displayed by Carla, you do what you can, which is to mock and scorn. You strengthen the hand of the wicked. Carla has been exposed in her light and hypocritical talk, and you try to find fault with us for bringing substantive correction that would deliver her from Hell. Now you are exposed, another true child of darkness and servant of Satan. Go ahead, mock this too, but know that God is not suffering long with that kind of attitude. He is finished winking.
Back to me: “Concerned Citizen Gal,” you misread the motive and purpose of proverb #358, applying the letter of the Law without understanding:
“Interpret our Master’s patient restraint for what it is: salvation. Our good brother Paul, who was given much wisdom in these matters, refers to this in all his letters, and has written you essentially the same thing. Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand. Irresponsible people who don’t know what they are talking about twist them every which way. They do it to the rest of the Scriptures, too, destroying themselves as they do it” (2 Peter 3:15-16 MSG).
You are as your companion, insulting and irreverent. The Lord speaks of light and vain persons and of mockers in the last day.
“So, I have a question for you too, Vic ole boy.
Why didn’t you abide by your Proverb #358?
#358: ‘Women scorn men publicly, but men complain of women among themselves.’”
First, I am not complaining. You should know that, but you don’t. Second, my addressing Carla is not a male/female conflict issue (which is what the proverb is about). It is a matter of the kind Brother Paul spoke of to the Ephesians (male or female):
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them” (Ephesians 5:11 MKJV).
You go on to say to me:
“And perhaps you forgot these proverbs of yours when you addressed Carla:
79. ‘Who speaks words loosely? Destroyer is his name.’”
What makes you think I spoke loose words? I was addressing loose words and, thus, the destroyer.
You quote me again:
“354. ‘Beware of the one trumpeting God and His goodness; he dresses in white to conceal his darkness.’”
Brother John says the same thing:
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1 MKJV).
The words I speak to Carla (if it were “Carl,” it would make no difference) apply to you too. You follow and believe what you will, stumbling in darkness, unable to understand, “ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 3:7 MKJV).
John does not say that all prophets are false or that all are true just because they come claiming to represent God. He says to beware. Just because one calls himself a servant of God does not make him one. One can only receive the Truth of God to know. You are in trouble because you can’t tell the difference, which means that unless God does something for you, the sure consequence is that you will choose the evil, even as you do now.
You quote me again:
“64. ‘Words can be like a stagnant pool or a lively brook.’”
Indeed; take heed. I speak living words, while you speak nothing worthwhile.
“38. ‘Pretended virtue and sincere vice are one.’”
What makes you think I am pretending? Do you have substance to back your intimation or are you a false accuser? And why do you label reproof of the works of darkness as vice, unless you are part of that darkness?
Try to understand the vast difference between substance and opinion. Contrary to popular notion, we are not entitled to our opinions about God. Those are the works and ways of the Destroyer, whom we address, not by carnal understanding, not in opinion, but in the Name of the Lord, by His Spirit:
“Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying: ‘This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying: Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, says the LORD of hosts” (Zechariah 4:6 JPS).
“Concerned citizen,” what are you concerned about? Do we have here in your title a perfect example of pretended virtue? Be a “concerned citizen” in spirit and in truth. Search out and speak the truth. Repent of your lightness. Get sobriety. You are perishing as you live, because of your sins, and you don’t even know it. Your problems are everyone’s fault but yours, right?
Postings in response:
Victor, may I ask you an honest question?
Why are you even here, saying all this to Carla, Lisa, etc? According to your site, apparently we all get to paradise anyway, whether we go straight there, or have a short stint in hell. I honestly have seen not an ounce of loving admonishment from you to anyone. You pass out judgment like it’s going out of style, but I see no love.
Do you love those you accuse of needing Christ, or do you simply want to make your points forcefully, love be damned?
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.28.08 – 8:27 pm | #
That’s interesting, Lisa, that many of the proverbs go against scripture. I didn’t even read the ‘proverbs’ page, and really paid little attention to the ones posted here.
However, I was drawn immediately to the ‘marks of a cult’ page because I’ve seen this type of thing before — relatively small, virtually unknown group feels the need to explain to the world what a cult *really* is. This usually means they’ve been accused of being one. Victor’s cult page basically points out that everyone but them is in a cult.
I read only two of the testimonies on Victor’s site, and both sounded like textbook cases of people ensnared in a cult. Here’s a short excerpt from Ingrid Benson’s testimony:
…Later that day, I was told that the Courts had given custody of the children to my parents and had forbidden me to leave Belgium with them. I was afraid and got rid of all of Victor’s writings that I had with me in the garbage of the washrooms of the airport. In so doing, I was denying the Lord before men to protect myself. It is written:
“But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in Heaven” (Matthew 10:33).
So the Lord also denied me.
My heart aches for these people, who place their trust in a man instead of the one true God. Apparently, they elevate Victor to godlike status.
They truly need the Lord.
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 2:05 pm | #
…and apparently he elevates himself to this status as well, as he claims to know the hearts of men enough to be able to pinpoint who is and is not a genuine believer.
Lisa Nunley | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 3:48 pm | #
Jen, to ask an honest question, one must be honest. I will answer your question in hopes you will listen to the answer, repent, and become honest. That, in fact, is your answer as to why we speak. It is to rebuke liars like you so that in the due course of time you will come to repentance. That is why the Lord sends us as prophesied, coming against light and vain professors of Christ such as yourself:
“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’ These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks puffed up words, flattering people to gain advantage” (Jude 1:14-16 EMTV).
You proclaim great love of Christ while flattering Carla and each other, but hate hearing the Truth about yourselves, which is why God appears to you as your enemy.
You bring up in your posting that you have noticed that we talk about the glorious good news of Christ on our site, which declares that to Him every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, but you completely overlook the judgment that we also preach that is necessary to bring this about, which you despise and dismiss as ungodly trash.
How else will mockers and scorners be brought to Christ except they first are rebuked and told the truth about themselves?
For this cause God sends us to warn you to repent. If you insist on your own righteousness and the carnal love you substitute for the love of Christ, you will continue to reap as you sow, and God will rebuke you in your wicked fruits, which rebuke will be much harsher than you deem our words to be. Victor has not been harsh at all, only truthful, presenting the evidence against the hypocrisy and lies of you and your friends.
You think that you are off limits because you profess Christ. Did not the Jews think the same thing when John the Baptist preached repentance, that they were justified as believers in the God of Abraham? John said to them:
“And say not to yourselves, We have Abraham for our father; because I say to you that God is able from these stones to make children for Abraham. And even now the axe is put to the root of the trees; every tree then which does not give good fruit is cut down, and put into the fire” (Matthew 3:9-10 BBE).
Your fruits of fault-finding and sin-justifying are not good ones, Jen, and for this reason the fires of purging yet await you.
The love you are talking about, by which you think to condemn Victor, is the love of the whore, Mystery, Babylon the great. She, drunk with the blood of the saints, seeks solace in her loves, but is found out as a liar and murderer before the Lord when He comes, as demonstrated here and by John Calvin in our paper.
How godly is Carla’s love in her response to our warning paper to idolaters and murderers? Is her example your definition and preference of love?
How is your love, Jen, that you should accuse Victor, defending Carla and her blatantly obvious unregenerate character of derision, impudence, contempt, and entertainment of devils? You people are something else, the daughters of those that kill the prophets, even as Stephen declared by the Spirit:
“And you continue, so bullheaded! Calluses on your hearts, flaps on your ears! Deliberately ignoring the Holy Spirit, you’re just like your ancestors. Was there ever a prophet who didn’t get the same treatment? Your ancestors killed anyone who dared talk about the coming of the Just One. And you’ve kept up the family tradition–traitors and murderers, all of you. You had God’s Law handed to you by angels–gift-wrapped!–and you squandered it!” (Acts 7:51-53 MSG)
Oh my! How Stephen lacked love! Not an “ounce of loving admonishment.”
What good is your love, which does not recognize evil, but delights in it?
Read the selections here: False Love – Satan’s Last Stronghold. Satan’s love wins its proselytes to error, accomplishing “salvation” of the flesh, but never winning souls to God. You want pampering and affection. True servants of God are not here for that; false ones are:
“Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful” (Proverbs 27:6 MKJV).
Post Script: Regarding your second post, Lisa cannot tell her right hand from her left, as she even declares of herself, not being able to discern a real Christian from a fake. By such an admittance, neither can she tell a true proverb from a false one. Why do you then take her word that the proverbs on our site go against Scripture? You believe liars because you are a liar.
The marks of a cult are not ours, but the Lord’s, which He has identified by what He has had recorded for us in Holy Scripture. Which one do you not agree with, and why? You see, Jen, you have nothing. You think because there are many of you, and because you have the might on your side, the history of the harlot church that glories in the flesh, that you are right, but you have no Truth. Without Him, you are in complete wrongness. That is why you cannot disprove one single point.
You are antiChrist, denying that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh. Yes, God is among us, and He is not among you, even by your own admission.
Postings in response:
I have a genuinely difficult time taking you seriously because your words are as passing gas. You are not God, you are a self-appointed prophet and you do not have the power to know the hearts of those who do belong to God.
I appreciate Jen’s honest question. I pray you answer her carefully and that the Lord convicts your heart for what you have done here.
Several of your proverbs even contradict Scripture, God’s holy Word.
I appreciate Carla’s response to all of this ungodly ridicule. I most appreciate my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ for giving my dear sister in Christ and attitude of mercy and grace to your unbridled, relentless, misdirected, ungodly accusations. She quoted Lee Shelton: “I only pray that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes. I pray that they will be convicted of their error and that one day I can welcome them into God’s kingdom as a brothers and sisters in Christ.”
That is my prayer for you and all of your blinded followers. Genuinely, we would all love to welcome you into God’s kingdom, in spite of your recklessness. Why? Because at some point in our lives we have all been reckless sinners that the Lord has, by His grace alone, clothed in His righteousness.
The very Scriptures that you quote and accuse with are the very ones that I pray the Lord makes real to you. Repent dear Victor. You are not God.
Lisa Nunley | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 9:31 am | #
Victor said: “Yes, Lisa, I can explain those proverbs, to the extent that Jesus would or ought to explain parables to His enemies, as you seem to come across to Him now (we will see), and to multitudes to whom things were not given:”
Shouldn’t Jesus know who His enemies are? He is God, after all. Never mind, don’t bother.
Your posts are ridiculous, you accuse Carla of having no love, no grace and yet you have extended none to her – and I’d assume none to any of the other people you accuse.
Kristina | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 9:32 am | #
I do appreciate your comments here. Have a fantastic Saturday.
Carla | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 9:57 am | #
Victor’s reply to Lisa:
Lisa, therefore is your breath a stench to all.
No, I am not God, but on what basis do you say that I am self-appointed? Do you really know? What if God is truly sending me and with me? You don’t know. Face it. If you knew, you would not speak vilely, as you do.
As for not having “the power to know the hearts of those who do belong to God,” we tell you that you do not belong to God. That, we know, because His Spirit bears witness with our spirits that you have nothing to do with Him. We are in Him and He in us, and you are not remotely related to Him, not remotely.
You say the proverbs contradict God’s Holy Word, but you don’t say how. Are we to sit here and believe Lisa because she sits on her self-appointed throne decreeing so? You are a presumptuous liar, Lisa, with gas for breath. While we give substance, you give nothing, not evidence, not Scripture, nothing. You are an empty bag of toxic wind, a foolish woman that opens her mouth to speak only to fight God. Wicked woman. Show me how the proverbs contradict God. Just try considering that you have no understanding of the things of God.
Yes, you appreciate Carla’s response. Why would you not? Paul answers that perfectly, does he not? So have I.
While Jesus Christ is indeed Lord and Savior, you have never known Him. As He now says to you:
“And once the Master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and He shall answer and say to you, I do not know you; from where are you; then you shall begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets. But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!” (Luke 13:25-27 MKJV)
You invite us into the Kingdom of God? Shall my neighbor’s dog invite me into my house? That is not sarcasm, but truth, an illustration in perfect reality.
“Because at some point in our lives we have all been reckless sinners that the Lord has, by His grace alone, clothed in His righteousness.”
No, Lisa, you have fallen prey to another gospel and another Jesus. As solemnly as I can say it to you, I say to you and to your supporters, you are most reckless as you speak and your clothing is filthy rags, matching your words. You are a prostitute prostituting, adulterating all that is good, clean, godly and good. We say these things not because we seek your hurt but because it is true, and we must say them to those who hate to hear it.
And that is the problem. Paul and I have chanced on a pit of serpents trying to have their young and now we speak the Truth to the beasts, declaring our power and position in Jesus Christ, and the beasts know their game is up. “ Leave us alone! What have we to do with you, you servants of the Son of God! Have you come to torment us?” you cry.
You are offensive to the One you profess to love and know. Unlike multitudes of present day teachers, pastors, evangelists, and prophets of Baal and Ashtoreth, unlike the many who play their childish and wicked games, as do all of you, we know whereof we speak because He, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who loved us and gave Himself for us, sends us to speak to you in the power of His resurrection, a power no devil can thwart or resist.
You hate the Truth, Which He is, and you are exposed. He has come on you, you are found out, and you will know it, all of you.
Paul’s reply to Lisa:
Why do you appreciate Jen’s question? Do you earnestly desire to hear an answer of Truth, or is it rather that you appreciate the irresponsible accusation implied in her letter, which does not ask for Truth, but condemns It, which is Christ?
Is what you love how Jen glosses over and denies the solid evidence that points a mocker to repentance? Why do you love that? Why do you hate the preaching of repentance from sin and all ungodliness, and call it “passing gas”?
Do you disagree that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance?
How will people such as yourself, whom you admit cannot discern between true and false, receive sight, except by coming out of their sins and darkness? How can those in darkness, without Light and discernment, see and know their sin, unless God sends someone to tell them?
You talk as if you hate ungodly ridicule. Why do you not see Carla’s ridicule, which as ridicule often does, comes at her objects of scorn without substantiation, presented as de facto evidence by itself? Carla initially responded to a writing we sent her on the murders of John Calvin, which she did not disprove with one single solitary fact. It is uncertain whether she even red the article. She simply ridiculed us for having written it. Do you not consider such an act irresponsible and foolish? Do you despise all proverbs?
“To give an answer before hearing is a foolish thing and a cause of shame” (Proverbs 18:13 BBE).
As is typical of the mocking of scorners who persecute the saints, Carla does not answer what we said, but finds unqualified charges to level against the messengers of Truth, such as:
“They also list a bunch of other false teachers (Kirk Cameron, John Piper, and everyone else under the sun, except for them, of course)…”
Jesus said there would be many false teachers. Carla accuses Him of exclusivity on this basis, because He not only said the majority would be false (shall the Son of Man find faith on earth when He returns?), but He Personally came against the established religious of His day.
Secondly, in her accusation, Carla does not lift a finger to personally show how anything we have specifically written about these people is wrong or false. She condemns the messengers without proof that the Message is false. Why does that not concern you, except that you have no use for the Truth either? Have you not considered that if what she said were true, it would be easy for her to demonstrate by the Scriptures? Isn’t that what is expected of those who level serious charges against the brethren of Christ? Why do you disregard the Law of God that says every word shall be established by two or three witnesses? Do you consider yourself then a valid second witness, because you say “amen” to ungrounded accusations?
Carla says we also list “…false teachings (the list is huge)….” If there are many false teachers, are there not many false teachings? Has she proven one of those we list is in error? No. She has not even named one, let alone disproven any. This is just another irresponsible accusation from the lips of another false teacher we will now add to our list.
Carla ends up her critique, “…and some section all about farming/communal type living. w00t… communal carrots! It was all very exciting. Like watching paint dry.”
What is wrong with having a farm and business occupation? Why do you support ridiculing that? Do you have something against wholesome food and health?
Nothing whatsoever is said on our sites about communal living, for or against. Why does Carla bring that up? Why does she tell lies, whether outright or by implication, and you people swallow them whole? Because you are children of the one who lied from the beginning:
“You come from your father, the devil, and you desire to do what your father wants you to do. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. He has never been truthful. He doesn’t know what the truth is. Whenever he tells a lie, he’s doing what comes naturally to him. He’s a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44 GW).
Therefore you do what lying heretics always do, whether physically or in spirit; which is to kill the messengers of God to maintain yourselves on your imaginary thrones of His acceptance and favor. That is the lesson of John Calvin, who, after actually pulling off the murder of Michael Servetus, which he boasted he would do several years before the actual event, proceeded to vilify and murder the man that stepped forward to condemn such an atrocity done in the Name of Christ. And as Christ said, Calvin did it claiming to do God service, just as you people gathered here think to do the same. But God has now come to put you away, as the saints under the altar have prayed and waited for this blessed day.
Here is a proverb that aptly describes you, Lisa, and your friends:
“He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD” (Proverbs 17:15 HNV).
You do this because you cannot tell genuine from fake, which would not be sin to you if you did not claim to see and did not exercise unrighteous judgment in your blindness.
Postings from “Concerned Citizen”:
Victor wrote: “You see the trouble we take to reply to you, even though you scoff.” Yes, you have taken the trouble to reply to us, but we have taken the trouble to reply to you as well, and you have scoffed. This goes both ways. I am taking the trouble to respond in detail to you once again, but I have other obligations I must fill, so I am uncertain as to whether I can reply in the future. Nevertheless, here we go, Victor’s words in italics.
Victor said: “You quote me again: ‘354. ‘Beware of the one trumpeting God and His goodness; he dresses in white to conceal his darkness.’ Brother John says the same thing: ‘Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.’ (1 John 4:1 MKJV).”
Exactly, Victor. Why do you attempt to improve on God’s already perfect and all-sufficient Word by simply re-wording scripture in Victor-speak?
“Concerned citizen,” what are you concerned about? Do we have here in your title a perfect example of pretended virtue?
No, all sorts of misdeeds and questionable activities have been engaged in under the umbrella of concerned citizenship. I’m concerned that someone can take such an unloving, venomous tone with one of my sisters in the Lord and then turn around and maintain that he is speaking for Him. Christ was firm with the Truth and passionate about what He came to do, even capable of sinless anger, but He was never snide or venomous in His words or deeds.
Be a “concerned citizen” in spirit and in truth. Search out and speak the truth. Repent of your lightness. Get sobriety. You are perishing as you live, because of your sins, and you don’t even know it. ?
Take a breath, Victor. You do not know me, you don’t know my story, and you really proved that one with this statement: Your problems are everyone’s fault but yours, right? WRONGO!! Way off base. I don’t blame anyone for my problems. The majority of problems that come up in my life are a direct result of sin…..for the most part, my own (although I am also sometimes heavily affected by the poor choices/sinful nature of others around me as well). I am well aware of my imperfections, and so I come up short somedays……most days, in fact. But I serve a gracious, forgiving God, who is still perfecting me. Furthermore, when I do have problems to deal with, I don’t dwell on them. I don’t wallow in them, I don’t cast blame, I turn them over to my Heavenly Father; He carries my burdens for me. I trust Him implicitly with them, and He has never let me down, delivering me time and time again from circumstances that were otherwise hopeless without His divine intervention. Sorry Victor, you’ve got me all wrong. You don’t know half as much about me as you believe you do. I had more to add, but I’ll end for now.
And before you ask, I am choosing to protect my anonymity because
concern citizen | 03.30.08 – 12:02 am | #
……..I have a family to safeguard.
concern citizen | 03.30.08 – 12:04 am | #
Victor’s reply to “Concerned Citizen”:
Says “Concerned Citizen”: “I have a family to safeguard.”
Yes, “I have married a husband and cannot come.”
How is it you remain anonymous to protect your family, while bold to publicly speak evil against others? You are a liar and a hypocrite, are you not? While the Lord calls on those that will follow Him to forsake all, including sons and daughters, which we do, you hide under your rock, thinking you demonstrate wisdom and virtue! “Concerned Citizen,” you are concerned about the very opposite of what you should be concerned, diametrically opposed to the One you profess to love and worship, not worthy of Him. Go your way and do your thing, but don’t use His Name to do it, unless you want multiplied evil coming your way.
Paul’s reply to “Concerned Citizen”:
The difference between our taking trouble to answer and you doing so, is that we actually answer your objections and the spirit in which you speak. And while we have not answered any here with contempt, as you accuse, we have given no respect to the baseless accusations, petty charges and fault-finding substituted for substantive, sober, constructive conversation. Choosing lies over truth, you do not know the difference and speak lies naturally, while ever so convinced of your own righteousness.
Though it may have been a burden for you to take the time to answer us, there is nothing of value in what you write. In fact, there is much of detriment and trouble to come for those who respect and follow you in your ways.
You say to Victor:
“Why do you attempt to improve on God’s already perfect and all-sufficient Word by simply re-wording scripture in Victor-speak?”
Are you trying to tell us that you do not read or listen to anyone, at any time, who writes or speaks on the meaning and wisdom found in the Bible? Do you also condemn your preachers, theologians, and teachers, who try to put the words of the Bible into their own words that others may better understand? Do you condemn them, or only those with whom you disagree? Are not your balances unjust, those of a wicked, fault-finding hypocrite? Most certainly!
“Shall I count those with the wicked scales pure, and those with the bag of deceitful weights?” (Micah 6:11 MKJV)
“Unequal weights and unequal measures, they are all disgusting to the Lord” (Proverbs 20:10 BBE).
About your name of “Concerned Citizen” you say:
“I’m concerned that someone can take such an unloving, venomous tone with one of my sisters in the Lord and then turn around and maintain that he is speaking for Him.”
If we maintain we are speaking for Him, it is only because it is true and we are not liars like you to deny it. The Lord Jesus Christ did and said the same thing to the likes of you, and you say rightly He was not snide or venomous. He spoke to your fathers, calling it like it is, did He not? How can you get around this, you liar?
“Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth…” (Matthew 23:33-35 MKJV).
You say you do not act as though your problems are everyone’s fault but your own. Even while you proclaim otherwise you testify against yourself by saying:
“I don’t blame anyone for my problems. The majority of problems that come up in my life are a direct result of sin…..for the most part, my own (although I am also sometimes heavily affected by the poor choices/sinful nature of others around me as well).”
You say you don’t blame anyone for your problems, but you do. You do not have the testimony of the Lord:
“In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:29-30 HNV).
Because you do not have the testimony of the Lord while claiming to be His, taking His Name in vain, you cannot help but lie in these matters. What a handy excuse for your sins and unjust speech to say that you are aware of your imperfections but God is still perfecting you! “Ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the Truth.” Let us inform you that you are already perfect in what you are – a venomous snake. Snakes do not shed their skins to become sheep. They simply manifest what they are, perfectly. Snakes also love to hide in dark places, as you do, fearful, always prepared to strike. Your father, the Serpent, was a liar from the beginning. So do you manifest his nature.
None of this is a problem for us. While you strike with your venom and serve us your poison, we are not infected or made sick:
“…they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them” (Mark 16:18 MKJV).
We are not infected with your poisonous lies to answer you in kind, and as Carla began with her invectives and derisive mocking of our godly warning to come away from the tents of the wicked. Only fools being prepared for destruction, like those of Sodom, make light and entertain themselves with these things. The Lord is with us, “Concerned,” for which all of you need be very concerned.
Victor ~ such a multitude of words. I’m grateful you have shared of the abundance of your heart with Carla’s readers; doing so speaks volumes and better elaborates the heart of her post.
JOYce | 03.30.08 – 7:30 am | #
Victor’s reply to Joyce:
To Joyce, who writes:
“Victor ~ such a multitude of words. I’m grateful you have shared of the abundance of your heart with Carla’s readers; doing so speaks volumes and better elaborates the heart of her post.”
Now there’s the kind of love you all have! And wisdom too! Know this, that the Lord has visited, and while His coming is a great day for the righteous, who rejoice at His coming, it is a terrible day for the wicked. And you do find it rather unacceptable, do you not?
Also know that while you think the words I speak are my own, and cruel, you don’t know the judgments that await you to cause you to know what cruel is. In past days, God has been known to have His people eat their own babies in a siege. Unless you repent, there are tough times ahead to make His Word by us seem as those of the kindest, most gentle lover, because, indeed, they are and have been of the One Who loves you, while you despise Him with selfish and wicked hearts, which have deceitfully led you to think to be regenerated.
Paul, are you guys just making up this stuff as you go along? First of all I’d like to know why you are speaking for Victor? Why was he not man enough to address me himself, since it was to him that I spoke initially?
My comment to Victor contained no lies, nor any flattery of Carla — only questions. So you call me a liar and accuse me of flattery on what basis? And where exactly did I justify anyone’s sin? Where was it that I delighted in evil? I could go on asking why you accuse me of all kinds of things you couldn’t possibly know about me from the two brief comments that I made, but truly, what’s the point?
I am just so sad for you people. You are certifiably insane, puffed up with your own self-importance, feeling ‘big’ and ‘mighty’ by trying to tear everyone else down who does not bow down before you and beg for your mercy. You are sad, and most deserving of our pity.
I have seen your kind before, and though you try to upset people and cause derision amongst the saints of God, you will not do so here. You have been proving yourself for who you are all over the internet. Do you think that anyone takes you seriously, and believes that you speak the oracles of God? You speak your only own oracles, and those who are truly in Christ only pity you and pray for your salvation.
No, I don’t scoff at what you say; I don’t mock you. I only pity you and anyone foolish enough to lend an ear to your insane rantings.
The love I spoke of was not some Babylon, whore thing, but the love that Christ had for the lost, and the love He told us to have for one another. You know, speaking the truth? In love? You have neither they truth, nor the love.
Finally, since you guys love proverbs so much, here’s a genuine Proverb from the Most High God:
An angry man stirs up strife, And a hot-tempered man abounds in transgression.
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.30.08 – 11:12 pm | #
Please excuse my typos, everyone.
“You speak your only own oracles” should be “You speak only your own oracles”.
Also, “You have neither they truth,” should be “You have neither the truth”.
Thank you, that is all.
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.30.08 – 11:34 pm | #
Whoops, one more:
“cause derision amongst the saints of God” should be “cause division amongst the saints of God”.
Ok, I think I’m done for now.
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.31.08 – 12:16 am | #
Paul’s reply to Jen:
Jen, the Lord Jesus Christ gives me what to say. You don’t hear (believe) what I say because you are not of God. Jesus said the same things to your fathers, and when He told them that they were murderous liars, they too denied it. They called Him the liar, and blasphemed, as you do, saying, “You have a demon. Who is seeking to kill You?” (John 7:20)
You can read all about yourself in the gospel of John, as to what was happening between your parents and Jesus. The conflict continues to this hour. For example, these words apply to you:
“Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape. And you do not have His Word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him Whom He has sent” (John 5:37-38 MKJV).
Your fathers also protested that they were of God, but were not, and therefore could not understand His speech:
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word finds no place in you.” (John 8:37 EMTV)
“I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.” (John 8:38 EMTV)
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:39 EMTV)
“But now you seek to kill Me, a Man Who has spoken to you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.” (John 8:40 EMTV)
“You do the works of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father–God.” (John 8:41 EMTV)
Therefore Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth and have come from God; nor have I come from Myself, but He sent Me.” (John 8:42 EMTV)
“Why do you not understand what I say? Because you are unable to hear My word.” (John 8:43 EMTV)
Nothing has changed. You people still do not hear the voice of the Lord, or believe.
Your question to me about answering for Victor answers your other question about on what basis I call you a liar. Your questions themselves are dishonest, presuming guilt where there is none, because coming from a fault-finding spirit, which, though it finds no fault, condemns all the same because your heart is set on justifying yourself. That is why you ask stupid questions, like is Victor not man enough to address you.
Are we “certifiably insane”? There’s your pity and love for us – identical to that of your parents you “certify”:
“And many of them said, He has a demon and is insane. Why do you hear him?” (John 10:20 MKJV)
With and in our Lord, we say to you:
“I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father” (John 8:38 MKJV).
“You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God” (John 8:44-47 MKJV).
He sure lacked love, didn’t He? Did they not say that of Him? Certainly they did; we know because we experience the proof of it from their children, who are as their father.
You know full well that Victor has no problem talking to you and the others here, but we legitimately ask you women, where are your men? How is it that you are all drawing the swords here and your men are silent, contrary to the order and commandment of God? Do they know what you are doing and do they approve of your condemnation of preachers of the gospel of Christ? And if they approve, is it because you have decided they should approve, they having no minds of their own, because they have no relationship of their own with God, except where you lead them? Trot them out now and let them demonstrate how obedient to you they are!
But you really don’t need to do that either, because you need a man to do a man’s work, and you are the man. How pathetic your “Christian” lives are! And you pity us?! That is like a homeless beggar in rags pitying Bill Gates for being financially deprived.
And you call us insane?! Put a proverb in the mouth of an angry, bitter-tongued woman, and she cuts her own lips, but a righteous man knows how to use the Word of God aright:
“If a wise man contends with a foolish woman, whether he be angry or laugh, there will be no rest” (Proverbs 29:9 JPS).
“It is better to be living in a waste land, than with a bitter-tongued and angry woman” (Proverbs 21:19 BBE).
“He who breathes truth shows forth righteousness, but a false witness deceit” (Proverbs 12:17 MKJV).
“The desire of the upright man is only for good, but wrath is waiting for the evil-doer” (Proverbs 11:23 BBE).
“Deceit is in the heart of those who imagine evil, but to counselors of peace there is joy” (Proverbs 12:20 MKJV).
Despite doing battle with the beasts dressed in Christian garb, we, praise God, have joy, Jen. Do you? Why lie and remain miserable? Yes, we bless you because we speak the Truth to you in the love of God, but you speak lies to us in the love of Jen. You are a lost soul, presuming to love others in her own carnality, but who does not receive the love of God that would deliver her from this wretched state:
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone the messengers God has sent you! How many times I wanted to put My arms around all your people, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would not let Me!” (Matthew 23:37 GNB).
Which prophet of God have you people not stoned? The Lord is fully guiltless of your blood, but you are fully guilty of His.
Postings put up after our postings removed:
as you can see, I have deleted the flurry of comments that arrived over the weekend. I would simply ask that you all keep these folks in prayer.
Carla | Homepage | 03.31.08 – 9:48 pm | #
Very wise decision
Lisa Nunley | Homepage | 03.31.08 – 10:57 pm | #
Will definitely keep them in prayer…
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.31.08 – 11:27 pm | #
I will continue to pray as well.
Kristina | Homepage | 04.01.08 – 10:28 am | #