Nadiv (Harold) contacts us after visiting us in Lethbridge in 2002 and introducing us to the Twelve Tribes:
Hello Paul and greetings from Nelson. I am sorry it has taken me so long to write back to you. I appreciate the attachment you sent to us (The Persecutors and the Persecuted). Did you write this? It is very clear what the scriptures say about this subject, you might even want to add a note about what Gamaliel said about Yahshua and His disciples. It certainly is consistent with what you are saying.
In Acts 26, Paul is speaking to King Agrippa about how he is being persecuted by the Jews for the hope of the promises made to their forefathers. It is clear that this hope is the resurrection of the twelve tribes. It is the persecution for this hope that our Abba is delighted in. Many have been persecuted unjustly throughout history. Unfortunately, all of this suffering has not brought about Yahshua’s return and His kingdom. Our Abba will judge every man according to his deeds and the motive of his heart. We, however, live in the greatest time in history, the time that all of the prophets of old looked towards from far off. This is the time when the Stone Kingdom of Daniel 2 is being hewn from the mountain of the world, not by human hands. Our Abba is gathering His holy nation so that His salvation will reach to the ends of the earth (Is. 49:6, Matt 24:14) and then the end will come. This is the joy that was set before Yahshua, a royal priesthood, a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9) that will bring an end to all injustice.
We hope you can come and visit sometime soon. Our Abba needs each and every one of us…
In Yahshua’s name,
Paul and I were together on sending that writing to you, at his suggestion. I don’t think you will mind my responding though you address Paul.
Nadiv, clearly we disagree very much in our positions and are found contrary to one another. I would surely like to come and visit with you, to share with you in the things of the Lord. Though you people are very set in the conviction that you are right, the Lord’s chosen, I must tell you that you are wrong, very wrong. We communicated this with you when you were here, though we did not expect you to receive right away. That time may not come for many years, if in this life. Of course, as you pointed out, you could say the same of us. Each stands and says, “I know; I am right,” and there is an impasse. I will comment on your letter:
“Hello Paul and greetings from Nelson. I am sorry it has taken me so long to write back to you. I appreciate the attachment you sent to us. Did you write this? It is very clear what the scriptures say about this subject, you might even want to add a note about what Gamaliel said about Yahshua and His disciples. It certainly is consistent with what you are saying.”
We can only write what is given, and not what is logically or apparently in agreement.
“In Acts 26, Paul is speaking to King Agrippa about how he is being persecuted by the Jews for the hope of the promises made to their forefathers. It is clear that this hope is the resurrection of the twelve tribes. It is the persecution for this hope that our Abba is delighted in.”
Questions for you to consider: Why the Hebrew? Why not be real and say “Father”? If God is against English, we all sin. If Hebrew is so important, why not speak the language as soon as possible? If it is in personal reference to Him that you think you ought to use Hebrew, why not the Hebrew personal pronouns as well? Also, you use Hebrew names for yourselves, not names which the Lord has given or according to spiritual attributes, but according to your physical natures. The flesh profits nothing.
“Many have been persecuted unjustly throughout history.”
What other kind of persecution is there but unjust? Is it justifiable to persecute those who are wrong?
“Unfortunately, all of this suffering has not brought about Yahshua’s return and His kingdom.”
Nadiv, you are wrong. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, and was perfected in the culmination of His suffering. So with all those who are His, each in his or her way. The suffering of those who are His is never without its desired result…His coming. You look for a carnal return, not having the Spirit. You are in the religious works of the flesh, which can be quite impressive to men.
On the other hand, you err greatly in thinking that it is up to us to hasten or effect His return in any way. The times are in the Father’s hands, not determined by the creature, but entirely by the Creator. The Father is not at all pleased with your works, Nadiv. An understatement. He is angry, because while you ought to be embracing His righteousness, you take it upon yourself to live right, to do right, and to prepare your children for perfection (what a burden for them and for you!), clinging to your own righteousness.
I told you that it is not about what you do before God, but what you are. You say, “The fruits tell,” referring to your works, but your works are the carnal mind’s interpretation of righteousness, presumptuously taking upon itself the right, assuming ability to perform. The flesh profits nothing. Our lives are hid in Christ. Those who appear to you to be unrighteous in ways may well be righteous, while you, thinking yourself to be righteous in His sight and before men, are not at all righteous before Him. Truly, your works are not fruits of faith in God, but of faith in yourselves to perform the will of God. These can appear quite similar.
It is not a matter of what we eat or wear or what language we use or how we wear our hair or whether we live “in community” as you put it, but a matter of obedience to God. That obedience comes in apparent contrariness to the will of God. (Consider the sacrifice of Isaac.) Please read Obedience on our web site, or you may have it in hard copy. Common sense and law, while they may be good and applicable in and of themselves, do not bring one into the victory, into the “called, chosen, and faithful.” The Law and common sense do not fulfill the Third Feast, or the First and Second for that matter.
“Our Abba will judge every man according to his deeds and the motive of his heart.”
We tell you now your motives. You seek to honor God in your own righteousness, maintaining the same, know it or not. It will not do. You are despising the righteousness of Christ by the cross. One can only love God by the cross, which is not a sacrifice but an act of obedience unto death, by the grace of Christ within.
“We, however, live in the greatest time in history, the time that all of the prophets of old looked towards from far off. This is the time when the Stone Kingdom of Daniel 2 is being hewn from the mountain of the world, not by human hands.”
You are wrong. It is not the “mountain of the world” as you put it, but the Kingdom of God itself, and brought to prevail, destroying the kingdoms of men, those of this world including Yoneq’s and yours. Yes, the Stone is people in the flesh, in this world, but not of it. Yours is a work indeed cut out from this world’s substance, the works of men (Psalm 17:4), and it will go with the rest. This I can speak only by revelation, and I don’t expect that you will receive it.
I am not contending with you but for the faith, Nadiv. You misrepresent the Lord Yahshuah. I do not condemn you but your works, which are unacceptable to Yahweh, and truly abominable. Yes, you display kindness and friendliness, which you call love. You display sacrifice, which you call obedience. You give your body to be burned, in a form, but you do not love Him. If you loved Him, you would obey instead of work. He wants obedience, not sacrifice. You have formed a one-size-fits-all formula, imposing it upon all who are not wise.
Yes, you have come out of the organized religions of nominal Christendom, but you have not been delivered. You have come out of the system, but the system has not come out of you. Mystery Babylon is alive and sits well on her beast within you. You have simply formed another system to replace what you left. Your tape is a splendid encapsulation of that fact.
Of all the groups, “tribes” as you presume to call them, I see the results of the Gestetner process of reproduction. You all look the same, talk the same, do the same. Yes, you will argue that you all speak the same thing and are of one heart and one soul. You are right in that, but it is the work of man and not of God. Your unity is much like that of so many other works of men, the same hallmarks and characteristics. It is in man’s power to change the outside, which you have done, but it is in God’s power alone to change the inside. One will not bring about the other.
You and yours invite one and all to come see for themselves. This is simply another proof of what I say to you, though you won’t see it that way. The work of grace in a man is not for display by man, but by God, and a man or any number of men cannot guarantee it will be there forever. But you trust in your own works and judge after the appearance and call upon others to do the same. When they come, will you say, “Sacrifice Isaac”? or, “Wash in the Jordan seven times”? or, “Cast out the bondwoman with her child into the wilderness”? or, “Surrender to the heathen enemy”? or, “Cook your food in human dung”? No, to one and all you will say the same thing, “Surrender all your goods to the community,” according to the words Jesus spoke to the rich young ruler. Living in community is one of your gods, as with the Hutterites. The reason why you won’t say anything else is because your works are not of faith in God, but of faith in yourselves to worship God. The words will not be from God through you but from you in the Name of God. The difference is not perceptible to many. You do not hear from Yahushuah but from your own thinking.
You have not suffered persecution because God is working in you, but because you are working for God. I tell you that we on the other hand suffer persecution for the Word of Yahweh, speaking that which He has given us for the sake of those who come and need to hear. He speaks by us, and for that we suffer. We do not suffer because we serve Him, but because He serves Himself in and through us. Of this we cannot boast, saying, “Come see how we live by our love!”
We cannot assure others that we are normal, because we are not, and we do not wish to be. We cannot assure others that we are godly, because the world cannot receive true godliness. We cannot invite others to judge after the appearance, because the appearance is not what it is all about. The world hates and persecutes true godliness, so how then can we invite them, saying, “Come see the real thing and be convinced”?
I cannot cease to marvel at how people like you talk about faith and obedience to God and yet be so in the dark about words Jesus (Yahushuah, Yahshuah, Yeshuah) spoke, such as, “Judge not after the appearance.” You literally invite people to come and judge by appearance, and if you only understood, you would hear the warning bells clearly.
Nadiv, you have no idea what we have forsaken or what we have. You judge by appearance and see things other than how they are. You err.
You believe that your system is the work of God on earth in this last day, to overcome the systems and kingdoms of this world. It is not, because it has not the power of the Kingdom of God.
“Our Abba is gathering His holy nation so that His salvation will reach
to the ends of the earth (Is. 49:6, Matt 24:14) and then the end will
come. This is the joy that was set before Yahshua, a royal priesthood,
a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9) that will bring an end to all injustice.”
And He will accomplish His will perfectly.
“We hope you can come and visit sometime soon. Our Abba needs each and every one of us…”
You seem to suggest here that He does not have us because we are not with you in your community. You cannot believe that we are truly His unless we culminate our faith by pooling with you.
Your assertion that God needs at all, and that the need can only be filled if we obey, is an ungodly and unscriptural one. It is a self-righteous one. Your words betray your origin.
Nadiv, I say these things not to condemn you or to find fault with you or Yoneq or anyone else. I am quite aware that this letter can appear contentious or angry or negative. Not so. Perhaps I should be speaking to you in person, as we did, so as to not risk offence, that you would know my heart toward you. God forgive me if I am negligent in this matter.
We would be more than willing to come and visit with you, but know that we would come knowing who we are in the Lord, knowing that you are in error. We would come with the intent to win you if possible, not to ourselves, not to communal living, not to our interpretation of faith and works, but to Yahushuah, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, the Savior of all mankind.
If you red The Vashti-Esther Transmutation, you would be aware of the declaration that men are ruled by their wives, contrary to their denials in some cases (not all), and that they need to repent, turning from the undue influence of their wives (as godly as it may seem) to the Lord God, from Whom they turned away in Adam, thus bringing the Fall. Look around you, Nadiv, get honest, and admit the reality rather than declaring that which is the ideal but not in effect. Your wife rules you, Yoneq’s wife rules him, and with every marriage you have witnessed, that of your parents, your neighbors, and whoever, you will find this to be so. But you will need more than the power of appearance to know. As I said, appearances are not the truth.
You need to forsake Nahara for Yahshuah. If she is called, she needs to forsake the power of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil over you and turn to you for her salvation, provided you two were to be married in the first place. All marriages are not made in Heaven…not assuming yours was not.
You want the will of God, Nadiv? Obey. Sacrifice is not what it is all about. Abraham’s act with Isaac could well be called his “obedience of Isaac” rather than his “sacrifice of Isaac.” Will you still receive us after all that has been said here? Paul will also have things to say. We have been busy and prevented from responding sooner.
If you and your people come by, we will receive you as we have done, not because we entertain your ways or approve of them, obviously, but to show you the True Way, not by our works of righteousness, but by the power of the Lord Who loves you and gave Himself for you. You tell the rest that, if you will.
(I just read Paul’s letter to you. You will do well to heed what he has to say. I appreciate his letter, and the points the Lord gave him for you very much.)
“In Yahshua’s name,
No problem about taking time to get back to us. We are also very busy, as Victor mentioned.
The writing I sent you was one Victor wrote, which seemed to us a good one to share with you.
Concerning your letter, I have been considering your thought about Gamaliel’s words and counsel. I don’t see it as applicable for a few reasons.
1) Gamaliel’s advice was to not persecute the disciples too much, in case it really was a work of God, which the council would not prevail against. Many groups feel free to use this example to prove they are of God, since they have appeared to flourish despite opposition. As laid out in this letter, this does not apply to the Twelve Tribes.
2) Gamaliel was not speaking by faith, but by man’s reason. Consider that those who agreed with his reasoning beat the disciples and commanded them not to speak in the name of Yahoshua. They continued to persecute the disciples. That is not the work of faith.
3) How can one tell what God is doing when His work is within, spiritual, while man is carnal, focused on the external (“the Kingdom of Heaven does not come by observation”)? Gamaliel’s measure was man’s measure, not God’s. Elijah thought he was the only one in his day, yet God had His remnant. His work was not cut off, even though a man of God questioned it!
You allude to Gamaliel’s saying because you use man’s measure. You judge after the appearance, as Victor says in his letter. If your work appears to be successful according to your criteria (what you call God’s measure), you conclude it must be of God. By the same yardstick, if you can see nothing, you conclude that God is not doing anything or that He is stymied in what He wills to do.
You ask people to inspect your communities as if they could see the Kingdom of God by observing with their carnal minds and senses. But carnal senses can only observe that which is carnal. What men see are your carnal works, which you call the Kingdom of God, and some of them are deceived into believing it is so.
What you people are saying is that God has not been working, at least not successfully, until you came along and began to create what He has been waiting for all these years. You make the Almighty into a hapless god dependent on the arm of man. I know you would say otherwise, but we tell you the way it is. Believe us; it is for your salvation to know these things.
4) Those who are God’s are not in the dark about what is of Him, but are called to discern what is of Him, being in Him themselves. We know those who are not of Him because they do not hear us (I John 4:6). We also separate the sheep and goats by our nature in Him, being a savor of life or death depending on where those are at who hear us (2 Corinthians 2:15-16). But we don’t ever decide if we will persecute others (as Gamaliel and the Jews consulted about the disciples), as explained in the writing I sent you.
Our purpose, or more to the point, God’s purpose, is to save. He did not come to destroy as men think of doing, but to save. So we are doing in Him by speaking the Word of Truth. He brings judgment to the world through His Son.
I am reminded here of something Harry Truman once said. He was known for saying things some considered rough to hear. People would shout at his speeches, “Give ‘em hell, Harry!” He once responded, “I don’t give them hell, I tell them the truth and they think it’s hell.”
Men call good evil and evil good. We are here as Light, revealing the Truth of God for goodness’ sake. Men, in their unbelief and religious works, call that hell. Are you not resisting our words as evil?
As for Paul and his speech to Agrippa, he was not saying the hope of the fathers was the resurrection of the twelve tribes, as you say. The hope Paul was talking about was of the resurrection from the dead, the raising to new life through reconciliation with God, finally being freed from sin and unchained from all corruption. That is the hope of which he spoke, the hope of the Israel of God; all mankind in fact awaits the resolution of this hope:
“For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan with ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope…” (Romans 8:19-24).
Victor addressed your thoughts on suffering and Yahoshua’s return. What he said is true and bears reading several times. Consider these things, Nadiv; they are the essence of life and pertain to the sovereignty and holy purposes of God.
When you say that God will judge every man according to his deeds and heart, you say it in self-righteousness. Your judgment is to condemn those who don’t receive the gospel as you define it. I know you would say you don’t mean to do this, that you are striving to be right towards others in the spirit of love. The problem, as Victor wrote you, is that this is your work, not God’s. His work is to believe on Him Whom He has sent (John 6:29). We are here in His stead. Will you believe us and, therefore, Him? How can you believe on Him if you don’t receive His servants He sends?
As for the time we live in, yes, great things are in the making. But you people are in confusion about being the resurrected twelve tribes, and many other things besides, because you walk in your own understanding and not God’s. The Scripture to which you refer, Isaiah 49:6, speaks of the Lord raising up more than one nation (Israel), even being a light for the Gentiles and bringing salvation to the ends of earth. Are you people not of the Gentiles who have heard the preaching that came forth from Israel, rather than being of the tribes of Israel?
As for spiritual Israel, that is also another matter. You people are not raising up spiritual Israel. That is well in hand already, as written in Hebrews:
“But you are come unto mount Zion [it exists now], and unto the city of the living God [also here and now], the Heavenly Jerusalem [capital of the tribes], and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly of the Firstborn [we do not create the body of Christ; we are joined to Him], which are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Hebrews 12:22-23).
Here is something else to consider: God raises up His servants who follow Him, the Lamb, wherever He goes (Revelation 14:4). These judge the twelve tribes, as Yahoshua said:
“…you that have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28).
You people have set yourselves up as the twelve tribes, which you are not, but there is even higher than these.
You people greatly err. We are here to tell you the true way, not to condemn you, but for your salvation. Now is the day of decision. Now is His day.
If God wills, we will come. We are certainly willing, and we desire to speak with you and with all to whom the Lord would bring us. His will be done, and His Name be glorified in all things. Amen.
I appreciate you taking the time to write back. It does not seem like any further discussion about spiritual things would be beneficial. Our Father makes a home for the lonely…
After rereading my short note to you, I thought it was a bit abrubt and didn’t want you to take it personally. We really enjoyed the time we spent with you all and we trust that our Father will make things clear to all who are His sons. I truly like you and hope that we can, one day, dwell together in unity. I will continue to search for where we can find common ground. The invitation for you to come and see the wonderful life our Father has given us remains open but I want to be clear that we are not asking for anyone to come and teach us. We would love to share all that we have with you…
P.S. Have you been in touch with Israel from Rutland. He is a very good friend of ours.
No offense taken.
You have said you wish to share all that you have with us, and we also wish to share what we have with you. We not only wish to, but must if we are to be true. Not “must” in the sense of striving, but in the sense of speaking that which is true concerning the worship and nature of God in contrast to that which is not, though it be presented as “The Way.”
Nadiv, judge for yourself whether what I say is right or not, but no one who names the Name of Messiah Yahoshua can say, “We are not asking anyone to come and teach us,” yet be His servant. Are you saying that God is nowhere else but in your midst? That it is not possible that He has His servants elsewhere, and that if He does, and chooses to send them to you, your door is closed?
Is this not the same as the Pharisees of old?
I would like your answer to this question. To say we cannot talk anymore is juvenile and foolish. A man for truth will not be afraid to speak with his friends. You still have much to lose, don’t you?
I have heard from Sholom and we have exchanged a couple of letters. It is my turn to respond. Perhaps I can share with you also if what I write is general and applicable for all.
The will of God be done.
We put Nadiv on The Issues of Life recipient list and he responded to On Being Your Own Shaman in 2004:
What you have written must also be applied to the “invisible spirit” of Jesus that every christian claims to be lead by. The only way to know who you are getting involved with is to see the life of the messenger. Otherwise you may unwittingly find yourself being your own shaman (in the name of Jesus). We are warned about this in the apostle Paul’s writings (men preaching another Jesus other than the True One, according to the traditions that the apostles themselves taught and demonstrated with their own lives.)
Yes, it is true that the Scriptures warn of men preaching another Jesus. It is clear that the Jesus of whom Marilee speaks in her letter is one of those. Marilee could not receive us for this reason, because we came to her in the Name of the true Lord Jesus Christ, Who, by His very nature and presence, repudiates all other Jesuses.
For this same reason, many others claiming the Name of the Lord do not receive us. They know another Jesus. This has happened with you, though you do not see it now.
You say that the only way to know with whom you are getting involved is to see their physical lives. You imply that the invisible cannot be seen or known. You leave it to man’s discernment to know God by the outward appearance. It is not the work of the Lord or Him that you trust. You deny the invisible Lord Jesus Christ, Yahshua HaMashiach, and the faith that is in Him, which faith is evidence of things not seen.
Here are some witnesses to consider:
1) Nathaniel – Philip told Nathaniel that they had found the One of Whom Moses had written. When Jesus saw Nathaniel, He said, “Behold an Israelite indeed in whom is no guile!” Nathaniel asked how Jesus knew him, and according to the answer Jesus gave him, Nathaniel declared, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”
Nathaniel did not examine Jesus’ life; he did not look for certain fruits or carefully consider fulfilled prophecies. His statement was purely and simply a declaration of things hidden from human observation, because God gave Nathaniel to see them by faith. It was the same with Peter when he declared that Jesus was the Son of God, and Jesus told him that he was blessed, because, “Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in Heaven” (Matt. 16:17).
Jesus goes on to say that this revelation is the rock upon which His Church is built. Nadiv, you are building on another foundation, which is man’s righteousness and acknowledgment. Your building will fall.
2) Saul of Tarsus – This man, full of religious zeal for God, persecuted the Lord Jesus in His people, even to death. He did not consider the believers’ ways a godly testimony. Why could he not see this? He had great knowledge of Scripture and wanted to serve God. Why did he not know?
The reason Saul did not know was because he was not born of God or given to see until his time came. This is not something a man can do for himself (John 1:12-13). The Lord did this for Saul, knocking him off his feet, figuratively and literally, making Himself known to him. The Lord said that Saul was a chosen vessel to Him. It was not the other way around. Saul did not choose God or figure out where God was and with whom. Neither did all his knowledge and training in Torah cause him to understand.
Saul thought he served God, yet he was found to be persecuting Him, until the Lord turned him around and made him the example for all of us to know that it is God’s sovereign will that reigns; He shows mercy on whom He chooses, when He chooses, each man in his own order.
To say we can recognize God’s messengers by certain signs sounds reasonable, and is right in one way, because the signs are there for those who are given to see what is invisible to the carnal man. But if God doesn’t turn us to Himself and open our eyes, we are all blind to these things. When He turns us, we will see Him Who is invisible (Hebrews 11:27, 1 Timothy 1:17) and we will see who is His.
3) Me – Shortly after I became a believer, I went to Israel. At that time there was sin in my life that was fouling my relationship with the Lord. I did not know what was happening. I asked God to send someone to help me. I met Victor there in 1979, and knowing virtually nothing about his life, I proclaimed to him that God had sent him to me. How this came about was that I had asked him at mealtime, on the kibbutz where we were staying, why he and his wife had come to Israel. He said that God told them to come. I knew at that moment that God had sent him to me in answer to my prayer. I didn’t need to try to discern anything else about his life or examine him according to a checklist of criteria. It was simply given to me to know this. That is the way the revelations of the Lord come. It is not by the sweat of our brows that we know Him. Yes, we will labor and learn to exercise judgment, but the revelation of the hidden things comes by grace, not works.
Signs that confirmed the Source of these revelations followed all these instances, both mine and those I note from Scripture.
Nadiv, because you trust in your own works, which you believe make you right with God and man, you expect others to see your rightness and to believe in your Jesus. Your “Jesus” is living in community. That is how you expect others to be able to tell that you are of God by examining your lives. According to you, unless presumed messengers of God are living in community, holding all things in common and doing the same things you do at the Twelve Tribes, they are not of Christ.
Your criteria validate your group, your chosen form of religion, and, above all, you. Jesus Christ, however, is not about living in community; He is about the forsaking of all things on earth to live with Him in Heaven on earth. Those who are brought into this grace are of one Body, which far exceeds in closeness any community that has ever been made by man. We speak to you from that Community, which thus far you have despised.
Paul, The theory you are presenting about trusting in the “invisible” is the spirit that denies that Yahshua came in the flesh. If what you say is true, our Father would not have had to send His Son but would have just sent an invisible spirit to save us. If you don’t know what the scriptures say about this subject please let me know. This type of belief is consistent with the mysticism that is so apparent throughout all of christianity.
Come and see the abundant life that is available to all who believe and see their need to be forgiven…Nadiv
You err if you think that Jesus Christ is invisible to us. To us, He is very visible, though we will yet see Him as we have not on this earth. We see Him the only way we can, by the Spirit of God in us. Our faith is not a matter of “belief” as the term is used today, but of reality, of substance.
Let me ask you some questions:
To Whom was Stephen praying when being stoned? To a visible Christ? Was it to the community in which he dwelt? Was it to himself who bore the fruits of Christ?
To Whom did Saul of Tarsus pray? To a visible Christ? If so visible, why did not those with Saul stick around and see Him in the flesh?
To Whom did Jesus pray? To a visible God? After His resurrection, Jesus became the first fruits of those risen from the dead; and He said to His disciples, “As My Father has sent Me, so I send you.” As the Father dwelt in Him, to make Him the visible God, God in the flesh – the Christ, so Jesus comes to dwell in us by the new birth and spiritual development. As Jesus heard the Voice of the Father, so we hear the Voice of Jesus Christ, because He dwells in us.
When Jesus said to Paul the apostle to not be afraid, but to remain and preach in Corinth because He had many called and chosen there, was it the community that spoke to Paul, seeing that (according to you) the community is the “uninvisible” Christ, the genuine one?
When Jesus Christ appeared to John on the Isle of Patmos, was it a physicality, as you suggest, or a manifestation of “…the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God…” (1 Timothy 1:17) ?
We hear His Voice, Nadiv. He said, “My sheep hear My Voice.” That would bring us to the conclusion that those who are not His sheep do not hear His Voice. If you were to read our website, you would read of the Lord Jesus speaking to us. If you were to communicate with us and listen, we could tell you of thousands of times He has spoken to us cumulatively, sometimes individually, sometimes to more than one of us at once.
I have had many prophecies, healings, visions, and dreams from Him, and several others here have had them as well. We can’t boast of this. Neither do we say that because we have visions and dreams we are of God and know Him. My point is that He has spoken on many, many matters; He has foretold several things to us through prophecy, brought many things to pass as He foretold, and confirmed many things, which only God can do, as Isaiah said:
Isaiah 48:3-8 MKJV
(3) I have foretold the former things from the beginning; and they went out of My mouth; and I made them hear; I acted suddenly; and they came about.
(4) Because I knew that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your brow bronze.
(5) And I declared it to you from the beginning. Before it happened I revealed it to you; lest you should say, My idol has done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, has commanded them.
(6) You heard; see it all; and will you not declare? I have shown you new things from this time, even hidden things, and you did not know them.
(7) They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when you did not hear them; lest you should say, Behold, I knew them.
(8) Yea, you did not hear; yea, you did not know; yea, from the time that your ear was not opened; for I surely know that you will betray and trespass; from the womb it was called to you.
Yes, we have been idolatrous, treacherous, and more. We have been and are unworthy of His goodness and mercy to us. Nevertheless, He has given us a new nature, and Jesus Christ is not removed from us; He is within. He has taken on flesh again, and that is His residence in these earthen vessels, earthen, I say, for two reasons:
1) He is indeed visible, in us. As it is written, “Every eye shall see Him….”
2) We are unworthy; in and of ourselves is no righteousness whatsoever.
But you believe what? You hear what voice? We see no faith in Jesus Christ in you. We see no relationship between you and the Lord Jesus. We see what you call love, which we discern as man’s love imitating what he thinks is the love of God. We see you living community, thereby declaring that you give flesh and bones to Jesus Christ. We see you focused on works, which you think are acceptable to Jesus Christ, but which He despises.
Don’t misunderstand what I say, to your detriment, Nadiv. Obviously, we are not against community or sharing or giving, as you witnessed though did not receive. We received you, gave you hospitality, and even sent you away with sacks of food. As you left, I saw something in your countenance that was not good, something like, “So you think you’re spiritual or doing something great here, but you have nothing going for you.” You appeared scornful. I saw it only for a second or so, but I saw it.
Nadiv, Jesus Christ is not in your midst. Seducing spirits and works are. Your works are anathema in Heaven. We dwell in Heaven; we see and hear from above, where we are. And as the Father gives us to see and hear, we speak. We are Jews, circumcised in the heart, with new names written, of which you have neither knowledge nor part. We are not as you, who take on Hebrew names externally and presumptuously as wannabe Jews.
You scorn what I say in this letter, particularly in that last paragraph. You think we are fools who profess and pretend, playing games and making claims, as do others in so many religious circles. Yet if we make claims, they are neither presumptuous nor delusional. We are His, for real, and you scorn because you don’t believe such a reality exists. You can only understand the ways and thoughts of this world, being of this world. We speak that which we know, and salvation is of the Jews, which we are in spirit and in truth.
The “spirit” part is impossible for you and your companions to receive, being in the flesh. Yes, Jesus Christ comes in the flesh, here, today, now, and you do not recognize Him, neither do you receive Him, because you worship other gods. He has hardened your hearts, as Isaiah said:
(14) With them the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says: “You will listen and listen but never understand. You will look and look but never comprehend.
(15) For this people’s heart has become dull, and their ears are hard of hearing. They have shut their eyes so that they might not see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.”
(7) You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
(8) “These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me.
(9) Their worship of Me is pointless, because their teachings are rules made by humans.”
You will know the paths we have taken, Nadiv. You will know ours, and you will know yours. We know both, but you know neither yours nor ours presently.
By the Lord Jesus Christ, Who comes in our flesh, and Who it is that speaks to you, and Whom you don’t believe.
Yes, I believe that our Master has appeared in physical form to many as you have quoted from the scriptures. How do you suppose these accounts were recorded? Can you see that there must have been a people who heard these stories and made the way for these incredible accounts to be preserved in scripture? Do you believe that all of these different accounts were just coincidentally collected into one manuscript? Who were the ones that received Saul after our Master blinded him? Who was it that Stephen had been living with on that day he was stoned and saw our Master?
Who was Saul speaking about in Acts 26:7? What is he referring to in Ephesions 2:12? And what about James 1:1? Galatians 6:16? Who is the wife, the bride that John saw in his vision recorded in Revelation 21:9-12? Has Isaiah 49:6 been fulfilled yet?
In Acts 9:4 it is clear that our Master completely identified Himself with His disciples when He asked Saul “Why are you persecuting me?” Saul was persecuting the disciples.
Are you hearing from the same spirit as Saul was before he was struck down? Why are you so quick to judge what we do? Have you ever come to see? If you would take the time to come and see you might find that the spirit that tells you these things is trying to keep you alone and seperate from the one and only Body of Messiah.
You seem to have concluded that we are preaching “community”. I may have been lacking in what I expained to you about our life during our visit. If this was the case I am sorry.
The Good News we preach is Yahshua crucified and resurrected. The approprate response to believing in His resurrection is that we would no longer live for our selves but for Him. The result is the restoration of all things, including human relationships, a true community of forgiven people, living in communion with our Father, His Son and the Holy Sprit. This is the only way we can have confidence we have passed out of death into life and the only way we can obey all that He has commanded us.
An abundant life awaits you and anyone else who is weary of their sin (self life). Are you willing to do the will of God? You don’t need to answer me but you will know if what I have said is true if you are willing to obey God. On the contrary, if you are not willing to do His will, you will misunderstand everything I have said. I hope you can hear…
Next, Nadiv responded to The Difference Between Religion and Jesus Christ:
The right name is Yahshua ha Maschiah…
Nadiv, I will reply to your other letter as soon as I can. In the meantime, I will reply to this one.
You do not believe that God has revealed and imparted Himself to us, but He has. Either you have concluded us to be liars or fools, or you refuse to subject yourself to the Truth. Which is it? When He first made Himself known to me, don’t you think He was big enough to tell me His “right name” if it was so important? He represented Himself to me as the Lord Jesus Christ. Over three decades now, He has continued to speak to us personally, to prophesy things that have come to pass, to heal, bless, protect, guide, teach, provide for us, and to reveal many things to us, both great and small.
In 1979, He sent me to Israel, half way around the world, not knowing why I was going, to speak to Paul, who was in prayer there. There I was, a Gentile delivered from my sins and converted from the world to God, speaking the Word of the Lord to a Jew who was in sin and in consequent trouble. Should not a Jew, of all nations, be informed of the “right” name? I assure you that he was, not in the letter, but in the Nature. That Word from the Lord Jesus Christ, from Yahshuah, delivered him.
Today, Paul, by Yahshuah’s grace, and only His grace, after twenty-one years of chastening and preparation, stands strong in Him. He has entrusted us with a ministry, representing Him to the world. Let me ask you, “Why has He not emphasized His Hebrew Name to us as you and some others have? Why has He not born witness to this purported importance of the use/translation of the letter of His Name?” Will you answer these questions? (Don’t get me wrong; I have no argument or problem with using His Name in Hebrew.)
I believe I have asked this of you before, and you have not seriously considered either the question or the answering of it. Will you do that now?
The only conclusion I can make is that you are under an illusion which may become a delusion if you continue in the way you are going…
Nadiv, I have some questions for you also.
We have been brought into that fellowship you point to as evidence of the work of the Creator and Savior, the sharing of all things with those of common faith by the laying down of our lives for Him and each other. I ask you, Who did that?
Just recently we have called on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for healing of a case of uterine fibroids that doctors could do nothing with. The Lord granted both healing and confession and repentance from sins to this woman. I ask you, Who did that?
(We have called on the Lord for many such matters in the past, which have been answered. I only give example of a recent one.)
A man prophesied against Victor and me, saying I would die of a heart attack and Victor would be buried in an unmarked grave. Three years to the day from the time we heard of him (June 2, 2001), this man, who worked as an advisor to others on health matters and was still in his prime, died of a heart attack and was buried in an unmarked grave. I ask you, Who did that?
We are hated by all men for preaching the gospel of the righteousness of God in Christ and the unrighteousness of man. I ask you, Who did that?
Does an illusion provide healing, repentance, faith, and love to the laying down of the life, Nadiv? Is it an illusion that judges those who judge us, bringing their curses on their own heads?
Victor’s reply sent by Paul:
Nadiv, Victor wrote this in reply to your last comments about illusion becoming delusion:
I have not changed my name, along with all those whose company I keep; neither did people in the Scriptures change their own names. I have not decided to dress uniformly with other persons, except to dress discreetly. I have not decided to cut and wear my hair uniformly with several others, except to keep it respectably short. I have not presumed to call myself by a certain tribe of Israel. I have not condemned the Jews of this world, descendants of Israel, and though enemies of the gospel, beloved for the fathers’ sakes. The list goes on, “Nadiv” Urban. And you are so deluded as to say we live in illusion?! Urban, only delusion is so powerful that it is entirely blind to itself, and so contradictory! How blind and foolish can one be? Truly, when God sends strong delusion, who can overcome it? But, of course, you say the same of us, yet with nothing to point to but not belonging to your man-made community.
Paul, all the phenomena you cite sound very interesting but the fruit that our Father is looking for is a Holy nation, specifically Israel (living in the Holy Spirit). Healings are only useful in the context of a healed society. Apart from a (completely healed) new social order, you can only send a person you have made well back into the insanity of this world. If you choose to do this, they may even go on to live in such a way that would lead them into even greater spiritual debt while thinking they are saved. The “healed” person would have been better off had not lived one day longer if this were to happen. Right now the world is full of individuals who have been “healed” by Jesus, yet they live for themselves like everyone else in the world. This is part of the greatest deception on the earth right now. The worst lie is 90% truth.
All of the healings that were accomplished through our Master Yahshua were to prepare the hearts of a people who would live together as you can read about in Acts. It is a misconception that He randomly healed individuals and then sent them out into the world to fend for themselves. All who were healed by faith in Yahshua began to follow Him and were amongst those who received His spirit after He ascended. To do anything else would have negated the very faith that healed them.
Anyone who offers healing in the name of Yahshua (apart from a new life of repentance from the works that lead to death) is ministering a counterfeit spirit. The free gift of the Holy Spirit and of eternal life is only given to those who obey our Master. There are many who perform so-called miracles but without love this is meaningless.
The only miracle that is from our Father is that a person would stop living for themselves and would become part of His Holy Nation. Within this context healings are from our Father, but outside of this it is just another part of the illusion that the Evil One is creating on the earth. This is not to say that there aren’t sincere people who work in all of the different healing realms but each one of them will be judged according to his motives. The ability to perform healings is by no means evidence of one’s salvation.
The love that has been poured out in our hearts causes us to lay down our lives for each other and is bringing about the restoration of all things. There is only one bride of Yahshua. If you are not part of the twelve tribes of Israel that is being regathered on the earth right now, you are not part of Yahshua’s body and are therefore not saved.
Paul , look around yourself right now. Do you see a community of believers? How many people do you live with? Who made you breakfast this morning? Who did you assemble with this morning to worship? Who did you serve today? Who served you? How did you pay your bills?
I sincerely hope you can begin to see your need for the real life of Yahshua. When we visited you in Lethbridge it seemed as though you had sensitive hearts but we did not see the life that the scriptures promise, the life that has been given to us.
You have not yet seen what I am talking about so there is still hope for you if you can humble yourself enough to come and see. If you cannot, because you claim to see, your sin remains…
In Yahshua’s name,
Nadiv of the tribe of Gad
P.S. You can visit any community you would like, if Nelson is too far away for you.
Nadiv’s reply to Victor:
Victor, I am surprised at how quickly you throw stones. This is not from the Savior that we have come to know. My heart is certainly not to cause you to react, but only to warn you about the direction you appear to be going. As a believer I am compelled out of love and obedience to our Master Yahshua’s word to do this. I am not interested in picking apart your doctrines but in offering you a better way. If you are satisfied with where you are at then I would ask that you not correspond with me any more unless you have a change of heart. I will do the same. Also, I would appreciate it if you would remove my email address from your mailing list. If you choose to communicate with me you may feel more comfortable using my legal name which is “H.C.” Urban ( “H.C.” is what all of my friends and family who are unbelievers call me, it is short for Harold Charles Jr., my father is Harold Charles Sr.).
H.C. Urban (Nadiv)
P.S. All of the list of things you have “not” done do not qualify you as a believer according to the scriptures. I believe it is what you “do” and the motive of your heart behind the deed. All that is not done in love, inspired by faith in Yahshua, is sin and leads to death.
There were no stones thrown, Harry, none at all. An evil and self-righteous heart would see it that way. You simply cannot stomach reproof. If you were seeking Yahshuah, you would know that. Nevertheless, He has spoken to you by us.
As for your statement, “All of the list of things you have ‘not’ done do not qualify you as a believer according to the scriptures. I believe it is what you ‘do’ and the motive of your heart behind the deed,” I agree wholeheartedly and did not mean or intend otherwise. I am not a fool as to think otherwise. But you pontificate as though you know and I don’t.
Finally, the motive of your heart is to be important among men. It is to gratify the flesh. You will reap corruption, I guarantee it (you already are, but are blind to it). You have taken your path and we ours; we will both see the end of each. On our part, we already see, and you refuse to be corrected.
We will strike you from the list, Harold.
Truer words could not be said to you, which Yahoshua said to the idolaters of His day:
“Do you not therefore err, because you know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God?” (Mark 12:24)
Paul, by the power of the Holy Spirit (Yahoshua), healed a man of the island where they were shipwrecked. Not only was this man healed, but many of that island came afterwards and were also healed. The believers did not require these folks to travel with them or to join the “tribes.” There isn’t even a record that these people were converted to the faith.
Jesus said to the Gadarene whom He healed, and who wanted to stay with Him, “Return to your own house, and show how great things God has done unto you” (Luke 8:39). The Lord sent this man back to those who had even asked Him to leave their place. You know nothing, but because you insist you know, Harold, your sin remains.
There was another religious group at the time of Messiah’s appearing about whom the Scriptures are silent. The Essenes were those who considered themselves the “Sons of Light,” and separated themselves from the rest of society (which they considered unclean), living in segregated community, whether in the desert, towns, or cities. They believed the end of the world was coming, and they would be the ones to prevail and rule with God. They had strict rules in many things, with no individual ownership, but sharing of all things in common.
These people were doing their thing while the Lord and His followers went out amongst the people of Israel. The Essenes continued to do their thing when the apostles went out after the resurrection of the Lord, in the power of His Spirit continuing His work. The Twelve Tribes are very much like the Essenes; you have set yourselves up in worship of man and his righteousness. Meanwhile, the House of God is at Shiloh, in His people who do His will, and whose righteousness is of Him.
Harold’s final response to us:
You may want to check in with Victor regarding our last correspondence. It is clear that you are of a different spirit than the Yahshua that we follow. I would hope that one day you will be able to see what we do. Please remove my address from your mailing list. If you ever have a change of heart we would be pleased to begin communicating again…
Nadiv (H.C. Urban)
A man tries to find God in community; we tell him the truth that community is in God. The Twelve Tribes puts the cart in front of the horse, though deceitful because of the appearance of going somewhere. It has no traction in the Kingdom of God, however. Allured by an illusion of Heaven and promises of earthly security, many are left shipwrecked.
Honcho David Derush is called in by Diane to prove that we are wrong - the Twelve Tribes are God’s salvation on earth, contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. We answer the arguments David presents to prove the Tribes’ divine mission, with Scriptural specifics that prove the opposite is true. The Twelve Tribes is a man-made invention - idolaters and promoters of the false religion they see in everyone else. That makes them hypocrites, too.
Many groups claim to be God’s people, but few claim to be actually creating His Kingdom on earth now. The Twelve Tribes have put their money where their mouths are, so to speak, by creating communities that encompass all aspects of life. Surely God’s Kingdom does no less. So why are they in our false section? Validity depends on why and how, not what you do. There is God’s work, and there is man’s imitation. The Tribes are the latter.