In the midst of our conversation with Lisa Nunley, we continued our conversation with Jen Elslager.
Jen’s reply to Victor and Paul:
I am not going to waste my time disputing your scripture perversions. I have a business to run along with my husband, and a family to take care of. I love to spend time discussing doctrine with other true believers, but I don’t have time for the likes of you. As I said, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
If God has sent you to me, it could only be in the same way he sent Paul a thorn in the flesh to buffet him. And as you instructed me, that could only have been a demon. Do the math, guys.
But you’re still on my prayer list. God can and has removed demons, so I still have hope.
Signing off and getting on with my work.
Jen’s reply to Ingrid:
"What discernment do you have to judge whether that answer is from Him or not or even whether that believer is ‘immature’ or not?"
Please, Ingrid, will you explain what discernment or even right that Victor, Paul, or you have to judge whether Lisa, Carla, myself, or anyone commenting on our blogs are in Christ or not? I am not shaken by your judgments, because I am fully confident that Christ has saved me and that I am indeed in the beloved, though certainly through no righteousness of my own. And no amount of insulting judgment from you people will convince me otherwise. I simply consider it as coming from the accuser of the brethren.
Jen, while you have no righteousness of your own (none does), you certainly do not have Jesus Christ’s righteousness either, which you cannot possibly have without His Spirit of righteousness. The apostle Paul and others have made it plain that one of the several gifts of the Spirit is the gift of discernment:
1 Corinthians 12:8-12 MKJV
(8) For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
(9) and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
(10) and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.
(11) But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.
(12) For as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
As Jesus said to those who professed to believe in His day in the flesh:
“Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 MKJV).
Those in Christ have those gifts, besides others, like visions and dreams, even as Joel prophesied would come, and as Peter confirmed at Pentecost:
“Later, I will give My Spirit to everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your old men will have dreams, and your young men will see visions” (Joel 2:28 CEV).
“But this is what God had the prophet Joel say, ‘When the last days come, I will give My Spirit to everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will have dreams. In those days I will give My Spirit to My servants, both men and women, and they will prophesy’” (Acts 2:16-18 CEV).
There are those with you who teach that these gifts were only for the early church, but they deny the Truth. They will find no support for such nonsense in Scripture. However, they will find the opposite. Here is what Peter declared by the Spirit:
“Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, and as many as the Lord our God shall call” (Acts 2:38-39 MKJV).
That promise is quite inclusive historically, carrying to this day.
Gifts of the Spirit are nothing at all strange to even babes in Him. There is nothing particularly special about any saint to have his or her Father’s gifts. It is a definite part of his or her true nature as a newborn child of God.
The very fact that you wonder how anyone could possibly discern between true and false brethren, when Christ’s own are exhorted, indeed admonished, to beware and to know the difference, tells that you are not His:
Matthew 7:15-23 MKJV
(15) Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(16) You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
(17) Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
(20) Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
(21) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
(22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
(23) And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
How else do we know about you? Are you not at all familiar with Scripture, or even care what It says? Here is what beloved brother John wrote to the saints:
“They are of the world, therefore they speak of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:5-6 MKJV).
So profess faith all you wish. Worship Him in vain with your lips all you want. It will do you no good. You fool neither Him nor us. He now, by us, tells you that He has never known you, a worker of lawlessness.
He said, “You shall know them by their fruits.” Without the gift of discernment, you would have no idea what true fruit looks like. You think you can tell fruits, but the carnal, albeit religious mind, which is at enmity with the One you profess to love and serve, knows nothing of the Kingdom of God, nothing at all:
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:6-8 MKJV).
We do know and understand, as testified in the Scriptures you do not know or believe:
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:14-16 MKJV).
Therefore, your confidence is without foundation. You have been plainly duped by the false gospel highly prevalent in nominal evangelicalism – the wide gate and broad, smooth, paved way that leads to Hell.
Now that would not be quite so bad if you could recognize, acknowledge and repent of your bankruptcy of faith in Christ, instead of being deluded into thinking you have something when you don’t:
“Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains” (John 9:41 MKJV).
Therefore harlots and drunkards enter in before and instead.
Make no mistake, Jen. We are not playing your foolish religious games, and that is what you and your friends find so difficult to bear. You vilely accuse us of accusing, of unrighteous judgment, and of representing Satan, not because we are wrong but because you fall on the wrong side of God’s judgment and you don’t like it.
We are true servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, judging righteous judgment:
“Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24 MKJV).
We have been sent to speak to the spiritual beasts, to “convince the ungodly,” even as Enoch prophesied, and even as saints faithful to Him have been doing for millennia:
“These are sunken rocks in your love feasts, feasting together with you; feeding themselves without fear; waterless clouds being carried about by winds; fruitless autumn trees, having died twice, having been plucked up by the roots; wild waves of the sea foaming up their shames; wandering stars for whom blackness of darkness has been kept forever.
“And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him. These are murmurers, complainers, leading lives according to their lusts. And their mouth speaks proud things, admiring faces for the sake of gain” (Jude 1:12-16 MKJV).
Only now, it is “wrap up” time. He is finished winking. Call us a cult, insulters, liars, of Satan and whatever you wish. We know whereof we speak. You will know it too.
Knowing Him Who speaks from above,
I can certainly explain what you are asking and I also have some questions for you.
“But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:10-16).
That is how we have the discernment to judge whether anyone is in Christ or not. We are in Christ and can therefore tell through the Spirit who is in Him and who is not. Why would we not recognize the members of our spiritual family, any less than the people of this world recognize their physical families?
Furthermore, the Bible stipulates that we know from God Himself who are His and who are not:
“For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father! The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God” (Romans 8:15-16 MKJV).
However, you are also asking what right we have to do that. Firstly, your question shows how you see things and is indicative that, contrary to what you say, you believe that you have a righteousness of your own. Secondly, we do not consider it to be our right but rather our duty in the Lord to tell you whether you are in Christ or not. Let me give you an example to illustrate this: if I was blind and you saw me heading for a cliff, ready to fall, yet thinking that I am safe on an open space, would it not be your duty to tell me that I am not where I think I am, and the dangers of believing that lie? Would you not want to tell me? You see, when the Lord takes you and makes you His, it gives you more responsibilities than rights. I have seen firsthand the consequences of someone believing he was in Christ when he was not, and choosing to remain there, ignoring warnings.
You claim to be fully confident that you are in the beloved. I saw in one of the exchanges on Lisa’s blog that you suffer from Crohn’s disease. Do you really think that God would lay that on one of His beloved? I do not think so, Jen. As can be read in my testimony, I once had cancer. I can tell you that rather than it being a sign that I was a beloved of the Lord, it was a sure indication that I was not. It was His wrath on me and so it is on you. You see, I am not talking through my hat, I am telling you these things from experience. I can also easily back it up with Scripture. I have experienced His deliverance and want the same for you and all. That is why I tell you these things, not to put you down or condemn. Believe it or not, Victor and Paul are not doing that either. Our judgments are not insults; they are liberating truth for the captives being saved, and a savour of death to religious hypocrites that are perishing (2 Corinthians 2:16). Which are you?
Jen’s reply to Victor:
Vic, I never said that true saints cannot know the difference between who is and is not His. What I am saying that you obviously don’t know anything about me or any of the other folks you are harassing and yes, I suppose ‘persecuting’ would fit here as well. So since you don’t know anything about all of us, yet you make judgments as though you do, what I’m saying is that I don’t believe that you are in Christ. Though I truly hope that someday you will see your evil and repent and become a child of God.
The arrogant utterly deride me, yet I do not turn aside from Your law.
Still not sure what your purpose is here. You are not shaking my faith in the least — if anything, you are strengthening it. I am feeling more compassion for you and your arrogant, sin sick soul the more I read of your writings. I don’t know what religious games you think I’m playing. My faith is very serious to me. If you knew anything about my background, you’d know what I’m talking about. I’d tell you all about it, but I really feel no need whatsoever to defend myself to you. It just saddens me that you don’t know or understand anything about true love.
1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
I’m still praying for you all, that you will humble yourselves and come to know the One True God. Your pride and arrogance is simply unacceptable.
Let the lying lips be mute, which speak arrogantly against the righteous with pride and contempt.
Jen’s reply to Ingrid:
I’m not sure I understand your meaning in the following quote, could you explain?
However, you are also asking what right we have to do that. Firstly, your question shows how you see things and is indicative that, contrary to what you say, you believe that you have a righteousness of your own.
How does my question show that I believe I have a righteousness of my own?
Let me give you an example to illustrate this: if I was blind and you saw me heading for a cliff, ready to fall, yet thinking that I am safe on an open space, would it not be your duty to tell me that I am not where I think I am, and the dangers of believing that lie? Would you not want to tell me?
Of course. But I am telling you that I am no where near that cliff you want to save me from. I am a new creature in Christ. I once was blind, but now I see. It is in vain that you are taking on the ‘responsibility’ to warn me of impending doom. However, I do fear for you that you have forsaken even your own children for Victor and his way of life. I know that you will say that it was for Christ, but the reality is that if you have the truth, how will your children be taught now that you have abandoned them? Do you not care for the eternal souls of your own flesh and blood? Why are you not expending your energies for them instead of me? (I am a mother of two sons myself.)
I don’t believe that God laid Crohn’s disease on me, but I do believe that He allowed it. His ways are not our ways. And I also know that it, along with other things in my life, has worked together for my good. Your perception that your cancer was God’s wrath on you does not change the fact that I was in Christ before contracting Crohn’s. God was not pouring out His wrath on me. He used my illness to draw me closer to Him, and for that I am grateful. Yes, I am even grateful for my disease! It made a huge difference in my life, and I am in remission now. I eat much healthier than I ever did before as well.
I am not perishing in the spiritual sense. My body is dying a little each day, but that is so with each of us. I am indeed, in the beloved.
Indeed, in due time we will all know – and see. As Jesus said, "There is nothing hid that will not be made manifest." You have been confronted, warned and have made your bed.
Ingrid may answer your question about what she meant by you displaying your self-righteousness in your answer, but I have something to say here. You obviously have not known the place and honor that true saints of God have, not being one yourself:
“For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He adorns the humble with salvation. Let the saints exult in glory; let them sing for joy upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the nations, and chastisements upon the peoples; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written; He is the glory of all His saints. Hallelujah” (Psalms 149:4-9 JPS).
It is our honor and the glory of Christ that we are given to judge you. We, being first to receive judgment (“judgment begins at the house of God”), know that we have no right not to be judged, as you declare of yourself, but receive all ministrations of the body for our good. You, not being His child, do not partake of His chastening or correction for goodness’ sake. You reserve the right to reject His Word, which is purely self-righteous of you, as though you have no need of Him and are above the Truth. You have great need of correction, and, now, not receiving us and the Word Who sends us, the more severe judgment of this world comes on you. You will die as a heathen.
You say God has not laid Crohn’s disease on you but has used it to draw you closer to Him. This is what Paul called “strong delusion.” The God of Heaven and earth is not the god or Jesus you worship, according to Scripture. The true God says He has laid this sickness on you:
“And he said, If with all your heart you will give attention to the Voice of the Lord your God, and do what is right in His eyes, giving ear to His orders and keeping His laws, I will not put on you any of the diseases which I put on the Egyptians: for I am the Lord your life-giver” (Exodus 15:26 BBE).
We do not hear you confessing your sin or wrongness in the manner the Lord our God calls for:
“And if they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their trespass with which they have trespassed against Me; and, also, that they have walked contrary to Me, that I also have walked contrary to them, and I have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are then humbled, and they then have accepted punishment for their iniquity” (Leviticus 26:40-41 LITV).
Therefore, whoever you are getting closer to is not Jesus Christ, Almighty God, but is rather an idol you serve in the Name of God and it will not save you from your disease. And if one disease goes, another will come. The Scriptures declare that God has done this to bring you into judgment, because you do not have a love of the Truth:
“And for this cause, God will give them up to the power of deceit and they will put their faith in what is false: So that they all may be judged, who had no faith in what is true, but took pleasure in evil” (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 BBE).
So says the Word of God, by two witnesses, the Scriptures and our testimony in Christ, which all the willpower in the world and positive thinking with affirmations cannot deny or escape.
You also told Victor that we do not know anything about you. How in darkness you are that you cannot tell that your few words and your reactions to those of others and to what is said so manifest you! You are what you speak. We have seen, heard, and know very well, even as Jesus was able to see and speak beyond the carnal senses. As His brethren, we “have meat to eat you know not of.” This Kingdom of Heaven is foreign to you altogether. You don’t even have a reasonable facsimile.
It is all trash, Jen. We see how it is that we speak constantly by the Lord and the Scriptures, while all you can do is one, criticize us; two, only insist you are right; three, make claims that are never substantiated by Scripture, thinking personal opinion is sufficient and acceptable; four, not know the difference between spiritual fact and opinion; and five, have no other witness for your part, except other liars. It is all trash, Jen.
Ingrid’s reply to Jen:
Paul has addressed a few points from your letter, but I had some things to say.
Here is what I mean by: “Firstly, your question shows how you see things and is indicative that, contrary to what you say, you believe that you have a righteousness of your own.” By asking what right we have to do that (judge whether someone is in Christ or not), you display that you have a righteousness of your own, also called self-righteousness. If this was not the case, you would know that the Lord can send whomever He pleases to speak to you and would consider what is being said to you. However, you reserve the right to decide who has the right to tell you something and who does not. In other words, you are deciding whether the Lord is allowed to tell you something or not. You are on the throne, not Him.
You say: “but the reality is that if you have the truth, how will your children be taught now that you have abandoned them? Do you not care for the eternal souls of your own flesh and blood?” How do you know what they have to be taught now? How do you know it is their time? Can you tell me that what they are going through now is not exactly the circumstances that the Lord has ordained for their salvation?
“But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ’s at His coming” (1 Corinthians 15:23 MKJV).
The Lord knows their hearts and what they need, just as much as He knows my heart and what I need. Do you not think that if it was the will of God for the children to be with me, that they would be? The Lord is over all things, Jen. Not just over some things, but all things. The best thing that I could do for them was to obey in what the Lord was requiring of me. I am not their saviour, the Lord is. These questions of yours are yet another display of your self-righteousness, as you decide what is right or wrong, according to your own understanding.
You say: “Why are you not expending your energies for them instead of me?” Because such is the will of God:
“For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it” (Matthew 10:35-39 MKJV).
He is not a respecter of persons. If His will is for me to talk to you, the fact that they are my flesh and blood, as you put it, does not make a bit of a difference in His sight. Now is the time for me to talk to you, and not to them, because that is how He ordained it. That simple.
Ingrid, you and Paul are wrong when you say that I cannot take correction from anyone, and therefore I am on the throne of my life. I most definitely can and do take correction from those believers who are in my life day to day and who actually know me. You do not know me, and though you say you have discernment, you cannot see that I am indeed a believer in the One True God, so why would I think that you have discernment about anything in my life?
That’s what it boils down to, isn’t it? You people seem to want something from me that I cannot give you because you are wrong about me. I don’t know what else to say. I cannot deny the One who gave His very life for me and tell you that I am not His. I don’t know why you would want me to do that. So no, there is no self-righteousness in the fact that I reject your faulty and undiscerning assessment of my spiritual condition.
How do you know what they have to be taught now? How do you know it is their time? Can you tell me that what they are going through now is not exactly the circumstances that the Lord has ordained for their salvation?
Apparently you decided what was right or wrong when you abandoned them to run off after Victor. Is this showing Ingrid’s self-righteousness?
And how do you know what I have and do not have need of? The Lord has already saved me, yet you seem to want to do that work for Him, apparently thinking that He did not do it right the first time. Is this your self-righteousness at work?
Clearly, there is no convincing you that I am a believer, so is there any point to continuing this conversation? I apparently cannot satisfy you no matter what I say. You find fault and self-righteousness in my every word. Do we really need to talk anymore? It’s up to you, but I will continue to pray for you — all of you. I pray that you will be able to finally see that I am indeed a believer.
Jen, devils believe in the one true God, and they tremble.
Then there were the Jews who believed on Christ, yet they scoffed at Him in the flesh, as Isaiah prophesied:
“Who would have believed our report? And to Whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For He shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; He had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon Him, nor beauty that we should delight in Him. He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: He was despised, and we esteemed Him not” (Isaiah 53:1-3 JPS).
Here is the conversation some of these Jews had with their Messiah, Jesus Christ, which exactly parallels our conversation with you, wherein you play the part of the unbelieving believers, and we of Christ, as members of His body. Any honest review of our conversation will show you that what I say is true.
John 8:31-55 MKJV
(31) Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.
(32) And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(33) They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed and were never in bondage to anyone. How do you say, You will be made free?
(34) Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.
(35) And the slave does not abide in the house forever, but the Son abides forever.
(36) Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
(37) I know that you are Abraham’s seed, but you seek to kill Me because My Word has no place in you.
(38) I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father.
(39) They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard beside God; this Abraham did not do.
(41) You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God.
(42) Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
(43) Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
(44) You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
(45) And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.
(46) Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
(47) He who is of God hears God’s Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God.
(48) Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say well that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?
(49) Jesus answered, I do not have a demon, but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
(50) And I do not seek My own glory, but there is One Who seeks and judges.
(51) Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keeps My Word, he shall never see death.
(52) Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon.
You say, “If God has sent you to me, it could only be in the same way he sent Paul a thorn in the flesh to buffet him. And as you instructed me, that could only have been a demon. Do the math, guys.”
Abraham and the prophets are dead, and you say, If a man keeps my Word, he shall never taste of death.
(53) Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets are dead; whom do you make yourself?
You say, “Like I said — God complex. Blasphemy, Victor.”
(54) Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father Who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that He is your God.
(55) Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word.
You say, “I most definitely can and do take correction from those believers who are in my life day to day and who actually know me.”
That is anything but true, and you know it, or worse still, you don’t.
Sorry Paul, don’t have time to answer your silly tirades today — it’s Monday and so it’s back to work for me. You should go out and get a job or something. You apparently have entirely too much time on your hands while playing with your illusions of grandeur.
Simply put: you are not God in the flesh. No matter how much you wanna be. I don’t tremble at anything you say — I just laugh at you when you deride me. I am concerned about your eternal soul, and the souls of your cohorts, however.
13"But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14’I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
There was no derision, Jen.