NOTICE TO THE READERSHIP: We do not usually post entire e-mail headers. However in this case, because the information is relevant to the situation, we are including them.
Put on your thinking caps, as the clues to the identities of the two “Lisa Nunleys” presented to us require some scrutiny to perceive the truth of the charade being played by the one behind the facades.
Lisa first wrote to us on Carla Rolfe’s blog HERE, which set the stage for what was to follow. Immediately afterwards we received our first email note from Lisa Nunley @ gmail to Ingrid Benson as follows:
I read your testimony. It breaks my heart to think that you justify leaving behind your 3 children to follow Victor Hafichuk, a self-appointed prophet. Your parents are right in that you are in a cult.
Why, thank you for your concern, Lisa. Now, where did you get the notion that I left behind my 3 children to follow Victor Hafichuk? I did no such thing. Before you start making such assumptions, it would be wise of you to get the facts, don’t you think, especially if you call yourself a Christian?
And have you any proof that Victor is a self-appointed prophet? It sounds to me like you are appointing yourself as some kind of spiritual authority or prophetess, especially when you expect me to simply take your word for it without giving me anything for evidence. Correct me if I am missing something, but all I see here is opinion, unless I do not understand what opinion is.
Consider that you have heard or seen nothing of my parents, yet you have judged me wrong and my parents right. My parents are Catholic, took my children from me, perjured themselves in court, made groundless charges against me, assaulted my children, and you say they are right. Excuse me, Lisa, but if you are “going to heaven,” I dearly hope things change in terms of admission standards there because I, for one, would rather go to Hell where decent people go (assuming Hell is the opposite of your Heaven), if Heaven is how you describe it by your judgments and prophetic utterance (things spoken without evidence).
How can you make this argument and at the same time claim to believe in God Who sacrificed His only Son or be a daughter of Abraham who offered his son? I am by no means comparing myself to God or Abraham’s sacrifice, but if God has done such things Himself and has required them, what He required of me is not contrary to His character, is it, Lisa?
Explain to me why, as long as I stayed at my parents’ place, trying to regain custody, I was slowly but surely being destroyed because I was delaying what the Lord had commanded, as He had warned me would happen. On the contrary, since I have obeyed the Lord in what He was requiring, He has blessed and healed me in many ways. Do you think that if I was so off the deep end doing such a thing in His name that He had not required He would not hold me accountable?
The Lord did say that He came to bring a sword, and, through those circumstances, He did just that between my faith and the Catholic unbelief of my parents. He is also the One Who gave them the custody of my children.
Can you show me, based on Scriptures and not your opinion, that what happened was not according to the Lord’s leading, that it was not what He was requiring of me?
You are a very hateful person… and yet you proclaim Christ. Children are a blessing from God and yet you had yours taken from you because you follow a false prophet. You are missing out on this blessing because you are blinded by your self-righteous, holier than thou attitude. Such consequences are the result of following a man who proclaims to know God but by his deeds he denies God and is detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed… unless there is true repentance. Of which, how could there be unless the Lord shows Himself according to His Word of truth and not the misrepresented and twisted version of that which you follow.
My heart-felt prayers will continue to be with you and especially those dear children that you were to raise in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
No, Lisa, the false prophet is the one who speaks contrary to the counsel of God and cannot give a second or third witness to her opinion. I even asked you to show me, which I should not have to do. You should know better than to condemn things contrary to the ways of God that are found in the Scriptures you claim to believe. But “claim” is all you have, because you obviously do not believe His Word. Therefore it is you who is false and also hateful, because you condemn the true without just cause.
Why do you hate me for asking you legitimate questions? Why do you overlook and ignore the circumstances I described to you? What is your reason to tell me I am a hateful person? Can you show me how and when I was so? Do you find it hateful simply when someone disagrees with you? How have I shown myself superior to you, except in knowledge of things that I readily shared with you? You are not making any sense here, which is what your hatred has done to you. What do you think you are teaching your children, in your hatred of God’s ways and His righteousness? For, since I certainly have none, and have not claimed any, it is His righteousness you condemn.
Condemn me all you want, Lisa. Like I said, give me substance, not your opinions. Your opinions are worth far less than you think. Any rational person without bias reading your reply would have to conclude you are quite unbalanced, having very strong unresolved personal issues.
Your countenance in the video testimonial on your blog shows a fretful, troubled and selfish person. Your husband appears as milquetoast. You say he is your hero, but slave is more appropriate. When he demonstrated his complete devotion to you no matter how cold, hard, and uncaring you showed yourself to be, you finally conceded to acknowledge his worship of you. This you called repentance from selfishness, which obviously it is not.
If your husband had anything going for him in Christ, he certainly would not approve of your behaviour here, condemning a woman that lost her children to the Catholic Church and governmental powers according to the will of God. He would see your hardheartedness and would be able to guide you in truth, not allowing your sickness to dictate reality, at least for him if not you. But he cannot do that because he is not there for truth either, but for what he wants. He wanted you and his children, and he got you, which has made him complicit in becoming your slave and reinforcing you selfishness. You have emasculated him. In your marriage video, both your countenances display what I express here to you.
The most sad and tragic part is that you people do all of this in the Name of Christ, Who is grieved to see you destroy yourselves while you refuse honest conversation that could lead you out of your error.
Lisa’s reply #1:
I do not own a blog and have no idea who you are talking about but obviously you are clueless. I am married with 3 girls of my own with a husband that I have been married to for 24 years.
How sad your life must be to make excuses in the name of Christ for what you have done.
Lisa’s reply #2:
I just googled “Lisa blog marriage video” then clicked on “contact”. Now I know why you think I must be that Lisa. Her e-mail is similar to mine. Perhaps you need to go ask your prophet what went wrong here and then go back to Belgium and raise your kids instead of run around with a bunch of fruitcakes.
Ingrid’s letter to Lisa @ gmail, sent to Lisa @ hotmail, the address of the “real” Lisa Nunley:
Well, Lisa, this is the most remarkable of coincidences. Not only are your email addresses very similar, but there is more. We have been involved in a conversation on a blog with a Lisa Nunley during the same week that you have written me, and she and her friends were telling us very similar things, sometimes word for word, as you can see below in an excerpt from the conversation we and others had with her:
Jen: That’s interesting, Lisa, that many of the proverbs go against scripture. I didn’t even read the ‘proverbs’ page, and really paid little attention to the ones posted here.
However, I was drawn immediately to the ‘marks of a cult’ page because I’ve seen this type of thing before — relatively small, virtually unknown group feels the need to explain to the world what a cult *really* is. This usually means they’ve been accused of being one. Victor’s cult page basically points out that everyone but them is in a cult.
I read only two of the testimonies on Victor’s site, and both sounded like textbook cases of people ensnared in a cult. Here’s a short excerpt from Ingrid Benson’s testimony:
…Later that day, I was told that the Courts had given custody of the children to my parents and had forbidden me to leave Belgium with them. I was afraid and got rid of all of Victor’s writings that I had with me in the garbage of the washrooms of the airport. In so doing, I was denying the Lord before men to protect myself. It is written:
“But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in Heaven” (Matthew 10:33).
So the Lord also denied me.
My heart aches for these people, who place their trust in a man instead of the one true God. Apparently, they elevate Victor to godlike status.
They truly need the Lord.
jen elslager | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 2:05 pm | #
…and apparently he elevates himself to this status as well, as he claims to know the hearts of men enough to be able to pinpoint who is and is not a genuine believer.
Lisa Nunley | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 3:48 pm | #
Later on during that conversation, Lisa also said to Victor:
“You are not God, you are a self-appointed prophet and you do not have the power to know the hearts of those who do belong to God.”
So, as you can see, there was more than just a similar email address to cause this mix-up, for which I apologize. I would be interested in hearing how you came across our website and my testimony in particular.
Now, Lisa, the letters I wrote, except for the reference to the blog (which would be good for you to consider anyway), were replies to the letters you wrote me and all the questions I asked you are still valid and yet remain unanswered. So far, you have not provided me with any substance, only your opinions, based on your emotions, righteousness and understanding.
Here I am, supposedly the one deceived and in error, a “fruitcake,” and yet I am the one trying to have a reasonable conversation with you, asking legitimate questions whereas all you can do is call me names (by the way, I love fruitcake), mock, accuse me falsely and without substance, or throw blanket statements at me, when you are claiming to be “in the right path.” I have to tell you that your example alone does not make me want to consider what you have to say, not that there is anything for me to consider since your arguments are unsubstantiated at best.
Let’s hear what you can tell me now.
Reply from Lisa (the “real” one):
I have scrolled down and read everything written here and am rather flabbergasted that this is happening again. We have a young lady that we have been ministering to that does have 3 girls and her husband of 24 years died 2 years ago. Very challenging and heart-breaking situation. This coming to light is perhaps confirmation in what we have suspected is going on again… though I really did not want it to be so. She has sent e-mails in my name and even posted comments in my name on other occasions and has even tried to write checks in my name. I really thought she was doing better. I have no idea what to say to you but my sincere apologies are with you. Please pray that we will handle this situation wisely. I will encourage her to write a note of apology, however, when she is caught she usually runs. It was rather difficult to read what you wrote about my husband and I’s marriage testimony. I am thinking it was Kristi’s hateful words that may have understandably set you off, but please know that my husband is a godly man that is the head of our home. The Lord has truly transformed my life by His grace alone.
I am sad to think of what has happened with your dear children. That must be so painful for you.
Ingrid’s reply to Lisa (the “real” one):
Thank you for replying and letting me know what is happening here.
As a result of the circumstances through which I came to be in touch with you, I never introduced myself to you. As you probably have gathered from the last letter you received, my name is Ingrid Benson. To get a little background, you can read the story of what the Lord has done in my life at Ingrid Benson [removed now]; it is the testimony that the person who wrote me in your name found fault with. If you will, tell me what you see there.
I had a few questions regarding the note you sent me. Are you saying that the person who was writing posts on Carla Rolfe’s blog was not you? If you are saying that you are not this person, please read the attachments I have included (Carla’s blog #1 & Carla’s blog #2), with the two threads in which our conversation is recorded (Carla has removed most of these posts from her blog) and let me know what you think. If you did not post these comments, then people familiar with you, like Jen and Carla, were engaged in a conversation in which another woman impersonated you and they could not tell the difference.
Are you in agreement with their words and attitudes, and those of this other “Lisa Nunley”? For example, when Carla decided to remove our postings from her blog, “Lisa Nunley” commented: “ Very wise decision.” What is your stand on this?
If that was not you, do you think they should know the truth about what has really happened, and that you were being impersonated?
I would not have written you about what I saw on your video had “you” not been in touch with me, but I did not write it biased by anger. Rather, it was a hand stretched out to you, wanting to see you free, Lord willing, if you are given to receive it, as hard what I say might sound to you. The things I described are there, though hidden to you and your husband. Read The Vashti-Esther Transmutation. The only way I can say these things to you is because the Lord has done them for me.
Lisa’s blow off attempt #1:
I do not want you to think that I am ignoring you. However, right now I do not have time for this as I am trying to focus on being a helpmeet to my husband and a mother to my 6 children. I barely have time to write on my blog and send e-mails back and forth. Please know that I will get back to you when the intensity of the school year settles down.
Lisa’s blow off attempt #2:
In the meantime, perhaps you can read “Questions for a Godly Wife” [article removed]. It will reveal to you my pursuit of holiness in the role of being a godly wife to my husband, who is also, by the grace of God, my brother in Christ.
Paul’s reply to Lisa:
Hi Lisa, Paul Cohen here, brother in Christ to Ingrid Benson, and one of those sent by the Lord to speak to Carla Rolfe and her fellow bloggers.
We are not asking for you to take any time away from your children on our behalf. We do, however, have an issue to deal with that you need to know about, which I also think you would appreciate being informed of because it affects you.
Carla and her peers are not aware that you did not actually post the mocking and accusatory words attributed to you on her blog. We will be informing as many there as we can that they have been finding solace and pleasure in the words of an impersonator – a liar and a thief. I will include you in that mailing.
I also have some things that could be of help to say to you with regards to your letters to Ingrid. Whether they can help you now will be up to you, according to how you react as given by God.
As you write in one paper:
“We must love the truth, even when it smites us. Let us not allow truth telling to be stifled based on blind loyalty. Let us come prepared to meet the One who declared Himself to be the way, the truth, and the life.”
The Lord Jesus Christ is with us in what we are saying to you, Lisa. I announce this to you, not to vaunt ourselves, but, as Paul the apostle prefaced his letters, to let you know we do not come or speak in our own names.
Your reaction to this matter thus far only proves what Ingrid wrote to you about what we all witnessed in your marriage testimonial (she did not speak only for herself). You tell us you do not have time to deal with this matter of mistaken identity and the damage it causes, but what about your husband? You say he is the head that is ruling your household, but we do not see this in your handling of this matter. We see you deciding, and unwisely.
We did not intend to hurt you by our report, as you surmised, but spoke the truth. You said Ingrid’s words were difficult to hear. If there was nothing to them, there would be no difficulty of the kind you experienced. It is the truth that wounds:
“Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful” (Proverbs 27:6 MKJV).
I red over your paper “Questions for a Godly Wife.” I am not writing in disagreement with godly principles of order and life. Many things you say are true; the problem is that you are teaching a form of godliness that is dependent on the power of the carnal person to attain it. It is all self-righteousness. One may even achieve the desired form, but will be twice the child of Hell. This is the way of the Pharisees.
What you are teaching is the “nice and pious” way for a woman to form and control her husband. It was to this religion you were converted and to which you gave testimony in your video. “You can catch more flies, ladies, with honey, rather than with vinegar. Make your husband your hero rather than your whipping boy.” True! And Baal (hero) worship is never for the sake of the hero, but for the worshipper.
The truth is, ladies, you cannot turn flies into butterflies. You cannot transform your men into men of God. You only make them into men of your image of God, which is conformed to your thoughts of Him. They follow you, not God. That is the truth, which, as Ingrid told you, we have learned by revelation and experience of reality.
Just as we received your writing we were gathered in the Lord and heard firsthand a testimony directly in contradiction to your premises, wherein a husband was formed in Christ by a wife that was given by God to oppose him. No, she was not right, but this circumstance came about from God to free both of them from the wrongness that not only they, but all men and women have suffered in, since Adam followed his wife rather than God. You and your husband are by no means unique. The problem for the religious is in covering over the reality with a substitutionary work for which only the cross will suffice.
I will give you an example of how the counsel you give is emblematic of the self-righteousness you are walking in and teaching others. You write:
“5. Are you remembering and keeping your wedding vows, which you took before God, your husband, and the assembled witnesses (Ecclesiastes 5:4, 5; Num. 30:2-5; Ps. 15:4b; 50:14; 76:11; Prov. 20:25; contrast Prov. 2:17)? Whether the classic vows to love, honor and obey, or a self-written vow, the vows are binding in God’s eyes as long as you are married. Each day of the week, each moment of the day, you are either working to fulfill those vows, or you are breaking your commitment to them. Failure to keep the vows must be remedied by repentance, not excuses.”
But Jesus said not to make vows:
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘Never break your oath, but give to the Lord what you swore in an oath to give Him.’ But I tell you don’t swear an oath at all. Don’t swear an oath by Heaven, which is God’s throne, or by the earth, which is His footstool, or by Jerusalem, which is the city of the great King. And don’t swear an oath by your head. After all, you cannot make one hair black or white. Simply say yes or no. Anything more than that comes from the evil one” (Matthew 5:33-37 GW).
“Comes from the evil one.” The evil one does not come with horns and a pitchfork, but as an angel of light, very pious and religiously acceptable to men by his “good” works. That is how he snares so many in their own righteousness. This is also why the Lord steers those that believe on Him away from snaring themselves by the words of their mouths.
Your advice follows the formulaic, legalistic ways of men that always condemn the faith of the saints. For example, Abigail was a dismal failure, by your standards, with her husband Nabal, yet we know that she was a woman of faith that had true humility. She said to David:
“Let your handmaid be a servant to wash the feet of the servants of my lord.”
Wisdom is justified of all her children.
Lisa, these things are not spoken in hatred, contempt, or condemnation. Blessed are you if you know that. It is the kisses of the enemy that destroy you, not the honest words of the faithful:
“He who walks with the wise shall be wise, but a companion with fools shall be destroyed” (Proverbs 13:20 MKJV)
Before God, my Lord and King, my Saviour, Jesus Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as well as the wise counsel of my godly husband I will kindly say that I have handled the matter as it should be handled. My husband is a godly man and your accusations are Biblically unfounded. Please do not contact me further.
Sent from Paul to all addresses involved with Carla Rolfe’s blog:
—– Original Message —–
From: Paul Cohen
Cc: kristina@…com ; joythruChrist@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; rstark@…com ; JLof@…com ; Lisa Nunley ; Lisa Nunley ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Imposters All
Carla, Jen, Kristina, Rebecca, Daniel, Joyce, and to others posting on Carla’s blog,
It has come to our attention that the postings from Lisa Nunley in the threads mentioned above are actually from someone posing as her. According to the real Lisa, with whom we have been in touch, this has happened before:
“I have scrolled down and read everything written here and am rather flabbergasted that this is happening again. We have a young lady that we have been ministering to that does have 3 girls and her husband of 24 years died 2 years ago. Very challenging and heart-breaking situation. This coming to light is perhaps confirmation in what we have suspected is going on again… though I really did not want it to be so. She has sent e-mails in my name and even posted comments in my name on other occasions and has even tried to write checks in my name. I really thought she was doing better….”
In other words, you have been encouraged by a lying thief in your wicked stances of ridicule and mockery. And how is it you so easily fellowship with such? Because you are no different.
This comes as no surprise at all, as the fruit does not fall far from the tree.
We began this conversation by sharing The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin and these words:
“Show me whom you follow, and I will know what manner of person you are or will become. If you do not know whom you are following, don’t you think it is time to find out how and where you are being led? Do you think you will altogether escape the consequences because ignorant? Think again. You already suffer them.
John Calvin was one of the most vicious of wolves ever to pose as a lamb of God. His supremely self-righteous spirit lives on in those who lionize and follow him, even unbeknownst to themselves. Truly, ‘that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.’”
If you follow a lying murderer, why should anyone be surprised to discover lying thieves in your midst, at one with you while you glory in scorn, careless words and irresponsible answers?
Our words are proven.
Reply from Lisa @ gmail:
I was really trying to sincerely give you guys the benefit of the doubt… but you are all so unjustly accusatory. Do not e-mail me please.
We then had the following conversation on Lisa’s blog (starting with her entry about us): “Illegitimate, Self-Appointed Law-Givers” [blog removed].
God alone knows the motives of the heart. (Psalm 44:21; Luke 16:15; Acts 15:8; Romans 8:27)
Beware of those who make claims to know the hearts of men. What is so wrong with illegitimate law-givers is that they claim to know that someone is sinning when they are not. They claim to know the motives or intent of one’s heart and cannot. They may even claim that God has given them the authority to know who is and is not a genuine Christian. Yes, we can judge what is true or false, sinful or righteous, based on what has been revealed in Scripture.
But what we cannot judge is:
Degrees of personal godliness
Matters that fall under God-given Christian liberty (Romans 14:1-4)
Just because someone proclaims to get their doctrine from the Bible, does not make it so. Just because someone proclaims what they are preaching is Biblical, does not make it so. That is why we are to test everything and hold only to what is good. Again, beware of those who make claims to know the hearts of men.
These false teachers proclaim a message that comes from themselves. It does not come from the whole counsel of God. It may have the initial appearance of the Truth and yet it cannot stand up in the light of the whole counsel of God.
We must continually look to our Lord and God Jesus Christ and to His Spirit so that those raging wolves that try to bear figs from thistles can be recognized. (Mt. 7:15, 16) They will even claim the same Scriptures about false teachers to scare you into their distorted path. There is only One Way, only One Truth and only One Life. No more. No less. And that path is not paved by wolves clothed in sheep skin.
They have set themselves up to rule in the place of Christ. They claim humility, yet they are prideful and arrogant, distributing grace and unrighteous judgement as they assume on themselves all the power and authority of God. In fact, they have fallen away from Christ and from all spiritual discernment. They have created a heavy yoke and led many into a pitiful and blind state of confusion. They become blind followers of the doctrine of demons that Paul talks about in I Timothy 4.
May the Almighty Lord give His children a genuinely teachable and humble spirit, that we might diligently pray for wisdom and guidance, giving all honor to His Son Jesus Christ. May He keep us from these ravenous wolves as He imparts through His Word of Truth what we are to know and live out as we are trained in righteousness so that we may persevere, be encouraged, justly convicted, sincerely repentant and kept from false accusers and false teachers clothed in deception that defiles Christ’s precious Name.
Press on in HIS truth and HIS love for HIS glory
UPDATE: A friend wrote: “What I really can’t understand is why these people bother with what they are doing. If they truly cared about us and believed that we were deluded, wouldn’t they warn us with tears, as [the Apostle] Paul did, instead of with barbed tongues, full of hateful insults and false accusations?”
BEWARE: These are real people going around to ministry websites and Christian blogs claiming to know who is and is not a true believer as they hurl unfounded insults and false accusations. I have gotten several e-mails from them. I have tried to graciously reply and they have taken my replies and twisted my words as they have twisted the Word of God to fit their agenda. That is what brings tears… what they have done to God’s Holy Word as they hurl venomous insults in the name of Christ. My sincere hope is that the Lord will convict their hearts and that they will repent and turn to Christ in Truth.
Posted by Lisa on April 08, 2008
Posted by: jen elslager | April 8, 2008 01:55 PM
Is what you say in accordance with God?
A person who isn’t spiritual doesn’t accept the teachings of God’s Spirit. He thinks they’re nonsense. He can’t understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them. Spiritual people evaluate everything but are subject to no one’s evaluation. “Who has known the mind of the Lord so that he can teach him?” However, we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:14-16 GW)
Posted by: Victor Hafichuk | April 8, 2008 03:25 PM
You have once again distorted Scripture. Scripture does not go against itself. Having the mind of Christ does not mean we have the power to see into and righteously judge the hearts of men. According to God’s HOLY WORD, only God has that power. Not Victor.
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 8, 2008 03:30 PM
It is not I who pervert Scripture but you. As it is written:
Spiritual people evaluate EVERYTHING…
Why do you think you are ill, Lisa?
“And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who heals you” (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
And: “The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” (John 10:10 MKJV).
Posted by: Victor Hafichuk | April 8, 2008 05:59 PM
Once again victor, you expose your propensity for warping Scripture and taking it out of context.
Let me just make your unfounded and unbiblical accusation that is based on a twisted interpretation of Scripture clear. According to Victor, if I would obey God then I will be healed of multiple sclerosis even though this is not one of the diseases brought upon the Egyptians… and I am not an Israelite once enslaved by the Egyptians?
Your warped interpretation does not measure up to the whole counsel of God once again Victor…
Ex Animo as I live an abundant life by the grace of God, whether in comfort or in affliction, through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 8, 2008 09:51 PM
Scripture is full of stories of people who’ve had physical illnesses — people very close to God (such as Job and Paul) and people not close to God. Illness is not necessarily an indicator of one’s spiritual condition — it’s only an indicator of the human race’s fallen condition in general.
God has used Lisa to minister to many people through this blog. I can’t speak for her, but I wonder if her illness has given her a different perspective on certain things, and unique opportunities for ministry. I have Crohn’s disease, and that has been my experience.
It is extremely sad that you are stooping so low. You remain in my prayers.
Posted by: jen elslager | April 8, 2008 10:15 PM
I am encouraged once again by the gracious words of truth you present. Praying for you.
Posted by: ukrainiac | April 9, 2008 05:13 AM
“It is not I who pervert Scripture but you.”
That’s just a statement of pride. There’s no love here my friend.
Lisa is a wonderful sister in Christ. She loves Christ and His Word.
You need to repent, and come to the Cross of Christ. This is where God humbles the proud heart.
The Cross is wondrous, and when beheld by a genuine heart after Jesus Christ, then this heart will desire to pour contempt on all it’s pride, and that’s a daily duty for me.
However, I have grown in the knowledge and grace of Jesus Christ, and continue to be conformed into His image, by His grace and power, through the Holy Spirit.
Good heads up post Lisa. Thanks.
Posted by: donsands | April 9, 2008 08:36 AM
Jen, Ukrainiac and Donsands,
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Yes, Jen, you are right in what you say about what the Lord has taught me through the MS. …not my will, but Thine, O Lord be done…
One of the accusations hurled at my husband and I from this group is that our marriage testimony video emasculates my husband and presents him as my slave. I asked my 2 teen boys what they thought about daddy being my slave according to these accusations. Their response without prompting was an immediate and sincere testimony that their dad is definitely the head of our home, that their dad is a godly man and that I, as his wife, display a high degree of appropriate respect for their dad. Interesting… and our children live with us day in and day out. Hearing them defend their father was very humbling and sweet. They were dumbfounded that someone would even think that way.
These false accusors also say that since I call my husband my hero, I have placed him above Christ and have made him an idol. No. My husband is a living example of Christ to me. He is not an idol. He is a man after God’s own heart and to God alone be all the glory.
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 9, 2008 09:57 AM
Here is what I see here: “Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes her mouth, and says, I have done no evil” (Proverbs 30:20 MKJV).
This verse keeps coming to mind when I look at the whole situation and how you ladies act.
Lisa, I understand from reading this posting on your blog and the private correspondence you have sent me that you believe I am deceived, one of those “blind followers,” and that you consider yourself to be on the “right path.” That would make you an example that could be followed by someone like me in need to come out of what you call “deception.” However, what I have observed, your example and the way you are conducting yourself, is precisely what the Lord, in His mercy, has delivered me from. Why would I want to go back to it? If I were to do such a thing, it would be like a dog returning to its vomit, wouldn’t it? Simply put, you are suggesting that I go from being “deceived” to being a deceiver, which is what you are, as exemplified in this whole situation. Thanks but no thanks. By the grace of God, I will gladly and thankfully choose to remain “deceived.”
Do you think that you need to apologize for the way you have lied in pretending that it was not you writing me, but someone else impersonating you? Or are you going to walk away, wiping your mouth and saying you have done no wickedness?
Posted by: Ingrid Benson | April 9, 2008 02:52 PM
You are very confused. I already explained the situation and you have taken everything out of context and twisted my words. This is what all of this comes down to… Proverbs 4:14-15, 13:20, 16:28, 20:3, 26:17, 26:20, Romans 16:17, 1Cor. 15:33, James 3:16
I am not the adulterous woman you venomously write of …among your other countless unfounded accusations.
You are caught up in a perverse path. You surround yourself with people that spread strife. You are quarrelsome and “cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching” in the Word of God. You are swimming in vomit.
And according to the Word of God, I wrongly have engaged in conversation with you. For that I beg the forgiveness of my Lord. Please stop e-mailing me and stop leaving comments at my website. Pass this on to all of Victor’s followers.
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 9, 2008 03:01 PM
People, if you wish to perish in your illnesses, that is your prerogative. As if you know what all diseases the Lord laid on the Egyptians. And why should that matter anyway? The Lord promises that no good thing would He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Obviously with MS we can hardly say you walk uprightly.
When we tell you about a better way in the Lord Jesus Christ, you cry foul and insist the will of God for health regarding those that call on His Name is wrong and evil. It is no wonder you are sick. What wicked liars you all are.
Lisa, are you denying you did not flat-out lie to us about posting on Carla’s blog? Is subterfuge and deceit what you refer to as your “gracious reply”? If so, that is consistent behavior for a liar. We have the record here of all that has been said and if you will not share it, we will, that others may see how Calvinism with a feminine touch, as one of you calls it, works.
We know that lying is a work of the flesh. While the hearts of men are not open for deceivers to see, the Scriptures plainly declare that the works of the flesh are MANIFEST (clearly revealed) to those whose eyes have been opened by God. Your denials are self-serving and antiChrist.
It is not patriotism, but religion that is the last refuge of scoundrels. That is the lesson of John Calvin and those that follow him in his ways.
UPDATE: Lisa, I see your new posting says that we have falsely accused you of emasculating your husband. You use your children to testify that this is not so. That is like asking fish in the sea if they are in water. They do not know what you are talking about, having nothing to compare to the fact that they have been in water all their lives. Your children, sincere as they may be, and as sincere as you may be, are in error and delusion with you. You have proven nothing by appealing to those close to you. Blood is indeed thicker than water. You have no spiritual understanding or wisdom.
Frankly, your husband may have been emasculated before you did your work on him. We are not sure, and it does not matter. The fact is that he is titular head of your household only, despite the appearances in which you trust. The Lord Jesus Christ says not to judge by appearances.
Plainly you are the man of the house to whom we have been speaking all along. Where, as I once asked before, are your husbands? Why do they not speak with us? Because you women are the spiritual heads, contrary to Scripture and Godly order. You and your families suffer because this is so.
I never said you have placed your husband above Christ. I said that you serve yourself in your idolatry. You do not truly love your husband. The idolater serves herself, not the idol. The one Lisa Nunley truly loves is Lisa Nunley. That is why you protest so vehemently over this matter. It impugns your righteousness and work. She that keeps her life loses it.
That is why you lied to us, trying to hide your identity. That is why you fight for your life here, and seek solace from those in darkness, in a mutual admiration society where all of you serve yourselves.
“Flattery is nothing less than setting a trap” (Proverbs 29:5 CEV).
Posted by: Paul Cohen | April 9, 2008 03:33 PM
Paul… I already wrote you about this. You are the liar. I already told you those e-mails to Ingrid were not from me. As I said, the comments from Carla were definitely from me and they were warranted. Did you misplace that e-mail? or delete that part? [EDITOR’S NOTE: WE NEVER RECEIVED SUCH A LETTER] I also told you that the situation has been handled as it should… or did you delete that too? Do not forget to read on the left side bar “Why I Blog”
I do not fight for my life. My life is abundant through Christ and in HIM alone I stand uprightly and stomp in puddles with my children, and ski down mountains as I look up and proclaim “I will lift mine eyes unto the hills; from whence cometh my help? My help cometh from the Lord who made heaven and earth…” Psalm 121.
I will praise you, O LORD, with all my heart; I will tell of all your wonders. I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name, O Most High. –Psalm 9:1,2
I write this last comment to you and all of Victor’s followers to officially inform you that your comments in my blog will no longer be posted and your e-mails will be sent directly to my trash bin. You have continually proven to be what the Scriptures warn true believers in Christ to turn away from. I will not enter your path of wickedness. I have repented of even attempting to converse with you. Your own words condemn you.
This is it. No more. The end.
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 9, 2008 04:03 PM
Wow Lisa, these people make my stomach turn. I have met nasty people in the church, and these may be some of the nastiest.
They are full of pride, and self-righteousness. May the Lord give them broken spirits, and contrite hearts.
“But on this one will I look:
On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit,
And who trembles at My Word.” Isa. 66:2
Truly when we sometimes cast our pearls before swine, they come and trample us.
Lord bless you Lisa. Keep on my sister. You have a great testimony. You are not unlike Joni, though she is one of my “hero’s” of the faith, as is John Piper, and John Calvin.
Posted by: donsands | April 9, 2008 08:01 PM
Lisa, that was an excellent selection of verses you shared in your comment to Ingrid — and a good reminder to us all.
You’re a beautiful woman of God and I’m grateful that you blog. I’ve learned a lot and been blessed many times over here at Deo Volente, and I know I’m not the only one.
To God be the glory, amen?
Posted by: jen elslager | April 9, 2008 08:28 PM
Yes, Donsands. As I said, their own words condemn them.
Truly amen Jen. To God ALONE be all the glory. And as my left sidebar says, “I definitely have no insight that is deeper than what God has already revealed. Therefore, if you find anything of value here than give God the glory!”
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 9, 2008 09:13 PM
Specifically for Victor and all of his followers:
“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.–I Timothy 4:1-2
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 11, 2008 03:56 PM
“And His disciples asked Him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?’ (3) Jesus answered, ‘It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.’”
Posted by: Chris Taylor | April 13, 2008 09:08 PM
Letter sent by Victor to Jen (in response to this posting above):
Jen, while Scripture is filled with examples of “people with physical illnesses,” it is not at all filled with stories of believers with physical illnesses, and if they were ill, God healed them. As it is written:
“Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will cure the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him. Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much” (James 5:14-16 MKJV).
But you do not believe Him and so you greatly err. Both your examples are illegitimate and I will tell you why (besides the fact that while Job and Paul are believers, Lisa is not, so their examples would not be applicable to her):
Paul was not ill. His condition was that of a thorn in the flesh, which, the Scripture says, was a devil, a messenger from Satan to buffet him. The thorn in the flesh was not because of sin; it was God’s grace to prevent sin:
“And by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty. For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me. And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me” (2 Corinthians 12:7-9 MKJV).
Paul also spoke of infirmities but he was not ill. Not Victor, but the Word of God says these things, and for you to say otherwise only shows your ignorance of God, His will and ways, the Word, and the power thereof.
As for Job, his was a classical case for all believers, wherein the Lord stripped him of everything, then abundantly restored all to him. Job was not ill because of sin. Lisa is. How do we know the difference? I know Job’s fruits and I know Lisa’s. Furthermore, if you need proof, we will compare the end of Job with that of Lisa, though I already know her end. Lisa has been stripped of her full health but unless she repents, she will not recover as did Job.
While you are partially correct saying that “illness is not necessarily an indicator of one’s spiritual condition” (at least not specifically), I tell you it is because of sin that Lisa is ill and it is not because of an abundance of revelation or because she has the wherewithal to minister anything of value to anyone. Her counsel to others and use of Scripture is nothing other than presumption and self-exaltation; it is rebellion; it is witchcraft, and God sees it exactly so. And Lord willing, you will see her end, that is, if you live to see it, seeing you too are ill because of sin. Standing with her in her deceitfulness and wickedness, you come under God’s wrath with her, besides because of your own sins.
And don’t tell me, as does she, that she serves “her” Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He, the Real, the True, has nothing to do with her because she has nothing to do with Him. She serves another Jesus, as do you. We know the True Jesus, and we speak by Him, and you are altogether blasphemous and calling for severe strokes in your reviling us.
You say that illness is “only an indicator of the human race’s fallen condition in general.”
That is true. However, you people claim to believe. I have news for you – Good News if you believe, and awful news if you choose to remain in your sins. The Lord has come to redeem us from that fallen condition. You don’t believe that because you are still in your fallen state, unregenerate, with His wrath still upon you:
“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).
“But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed” (Isaiah 53:5 MKJV).
“The LORD is our protector and glorious King, blessing us with kindness and honor. He does not refuse any good thing to those who do what is right” (Psalms 84:11 GNB).
I know what I am talking about, Jen, as confirmed both by years of experience and Scripture, not perverting It, as all you do, but rightly dividing and interpreting It, and you despise It and us for it.
“He has forgiveness for all your sins; he takes away all your diseases; He keeps back your life from destruction, crowning you with mercy and grace” (Psalms 103:3-4 BBE).
“All” means “all” or we may as well toss it all away and forget we ever red His Word. Lisa foolishly eats her own flesh and bites the hand that feeds her while presuming to feed others. She thinks she knows what diseases the Lord laid or did not lay on the Egyptians. She seems to assume that while God promises those under the Law good health with obedience, those in grace have less. Yet she assumes we have more than did they, right? She also presumes that if God did not specify MS or cancer with the Israelites, then somehow believers are prone to those because they weren’t covered in the ancient list.
Foolish, wicked women, you are, all of you! Is it any wonder you perish in your sins? You cling to them for dear life and condemn the Healer while vainly worshipping Him with your wretched lips, thus doubling your sin and the wrath. You accuse us of distorting the Scriptures but speak stupidly of Them, knowing nothing, nothing at all. So you die, but oh, how good you are at entertaining one another and encouraging each other in your vanities!
Finally, you write, “It is extremely sad that you are stooping so low. You remain in my prayers.”
Why should you be sad that I should stoop down from God’s throne to tell you your sins in order to deliver you from them? Is it because you prefer to remain in your sins? As to your prayers, they are nowhere near the throne of God. They have no entrance to God, seeing they are abominable to Him. We know this because we are one with Him in the heavenlies, even as He promised:
“I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in Us, just as You are in Me and I am in You. May they be one, so that the world will believe that You sent Me. I gave them the same glory You gave Me, so that they may be one, just as You and I are one: I in them and You in Me, so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that You sent Me and that You love them as You love Me” (John 17:21-23 GNB)
He was faithful to His Word and has fulfilled it for and in us, as promised. You have neither seen nor known of these things. Indeed, I do not believe you have so much as heard of them.
Once again, it does not surprise me that email from you people ended up in my spam folder. Right next to Chinese emails I can’t read and other nasty emails I won’t bother to mention here. Normally I just click on ‘delete all spam’, but then I saw your name.
Why are you bothering me? I mean really, what’s your purpose? I already get that you seem to get some kind of thrill out of trying to irritate people, but can’t you see that we just feel sorry for you and are praying for you? You have a God complex, and it’s more than just sad — it’s utter blasphemy.
It does no good to talk with you because there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Here’s clear evidence that you take people’s words and twist them:
I said that I was sad that you were stooping so low — and in context my statement was referring to attacking Lisa for her illness. And you twist my statement into this:
Why should you be sad that I should stoop down from God’s throne to tell you your sins to deliver you from them?
Stoop down from God’s throne? Really, Victor? So YOU are the one on God’s throne? That would make you God, then, right?
Like I said — God complex. Blasphemy, Victor. You’re in need of some serious help mentally.
“But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father has been working until now, and I am working.’ Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:17-18 EMTV).
“Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God” (John 20:17 MKJV).
“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through Your truth. Your Word is truth. As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world. And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth…. And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one, I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me” (John 17:16-23 MKJV).
Jen, here is the difference between us: We know and confess that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh. He has come in us. You say this is impossible, calling it “blasphemy,” just as your fathers said to the Lord. Your “Jesus Christ” is dead, a vain imagination in your head, while ours is alive and bearing witness against you and your dead god through us, just as He promised:
“Woe to you! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Consequently, you bear witness to and approve of the deeds of your fathers; because they indeed killed them, but you build their tombs. Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required from this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation” (Luke 11:47-51 EMTV).
Enoch also prophesied of this day, as Jude recorded:
“And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him” (Jude 1:14-15 MKJV).
We testify, in His righteousness, and by His appointment, against your blasphemies. You know nothing, Jen, yet you speak as though you know everything.
—– Original Message —–
To: Paul Cohen
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Testimony of Jesus Christ
No, I definitely do not speak as though I know everything, but this one thing I know for sure:
There is only one Jesus Christ who came in the flesh, and it’s not you or Victor. And I am forever grateful to the Most High God that you are not His representatives. However, I do continue to pray that you will repent and be forgiven of these most grievous sins.
Jen, we notice that you never dispute the Scriptures we present to you. You simply ignore them and continue to give us your perverse and unsupported opinions that contravene the Word of God.
You say that we are not Jesus Christ. We never said we were God. But we do claim, by His grace, to be part of His body. As it is written:
“For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as also the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and to the church” (Ephesians 5:29-32 EMTV).
He has sent us to speak to you. It is not man, but God Whom you reject:
“Most assuredly I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me” (John 13:20 EMTV).
Therefore, to the Most High God, what you express for gratefulness is as spitting in His face and your prayers despising His work are as curses in His ears. Far better that you should be a whore or crack addict, than a religious hypocrite and Christ-hater.
Letter sent to Lisa and a list of commentators on Lisa’s blog:
—– Original Message —–
From: Paul Cohen
To: kristina@…com ; joythruChrist@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; rstark@…com ; JLof@…com ; Lisa Nunley ; Lisa Nunley ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: An Answer and Vision From the Lord
Lisa Nunley claims that we are the liars, not she. Here is Ingrid Benson’s account of what the Lord gave her for His answer in this matter:
“After receiving the two emails from Lisa, telling me that she did not have a blog, had three daughters and had been married to the same husband for 24 years, I wondered what was going on. Although this lady’s name was Lisa Nunley and her email name was identical, along with similar words spoken to us, she claimed she was not the Lisa Nunley I thought she was. I called Victor and the two of us discussed and clarified the implications of those emails. The situation looked somewhat confused and confusing, so we prayed and asked the Lord to show us what we needed to know. A little while after, I saw a picture of two female bodies (I know they were female because they wore dresses) standing side by side. Then, the two bodies merged into one body, starting from the feet towards the head.”
So we have seen it happen as the correspondences from the two Lisa Nunleys have merged into one person before our eyes.
“For many deceivers have entered into the world, who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the anti-Christ” (2 John 1:7 MKJV).
—– Original Message —–
From: Lisa Nunley
To: Paul Cohen ; kristina@…com ; joythruChrist@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; rstark@…com ; JLof@…com ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: An Answer and Vision From the Lord
You guys are demonic… test the spirits. Yours is obviously a demon deceiving you not only in your doctrine, your self-promoting prophesies, but in your demented dreams.
Paul’s reply to Lisa:
—– Original Message —–
From: Paul Cohen
To: Lisa Nunley
Cc: kristina@…com ; joythruChrist@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; rstark@…com ; JLof@…com ; Lisa Nunley ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:21 PM
Subject: Exposed and Confounded
Lisa, that was a vision, not a dream. You have been very careless and slipshod, as when answering us here from your doppelganger address and not including your regular address on the mailing list. Are you now going to tell everyone that you are not the same person as the blogger Lisa Nunley, as you lied to us? Go ahead, trot out more of your stories, so everyone else can see who truly has the demons.
Reply from Lisa:
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
That is you and all of Victor’s followers.
Reply from Jen:
—– Original Message —–
To: Lisa Nunley
Cc: Paul Cohen ; kristina@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; rstark@…com ; JLof@…com ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: An Answer and Vision From the Lord
I agree with Lisa on this. And I continue to pray for your souls.
Reply from Dan:
I see no reason to include myself or anyone else in your emails dealing with this issue. Please remove me from further correspondence.
I don’t doubt that you had some form of vision, whether spiritual or hallucinatory I shall not say, though my suspicion is that it was not from the Lord. Regardless, the vision itself only troubles me in that you don’t seem able to discern between what is of God and what is not of God, and therefore I am concerned for your spiritual health. But what is more directly troubling is that on the strength of your own subjective interpretation, you have convinced yourself of some duplicity in Lisa, and having relied only on this, you have bothered people who ought not to have been bothered until you had something a little more substantial than your mystical intuition.
Please therefore, consider the merit of having better evidence in your hand before you broadcast your lack of it, to me at least.
Yours, in Christ,
P.S. – I don’t know Lisa, but I suggest that if you have received some sort of communication from someone using her name, then it was likely just that – someone using her name. As an IT professional I can assure you, it isn’t that hard to spoof email addresses – in fact, spammers do it all the time. You might want to consider the possibility that you are embarrassingly mistaken, and more than a little naive.
Dan, I understand that this matter is not easy to follow and we did not get into all the details of Lisa’s deception. Your observation about knowing what you are talking about before making any charges is certainly good advice. However, we do have direct evidence of Lisa’s deceitfulness that confirms what God showed us. On my part, I saw that evidence before I ever knew Ingrid had the vision of Lisa’s deception. So I was not relying on a personal interpretation, which would not be right. We must know and have confirmation from God.
As an IT professional, you of all people should have noticed that we were not talking about spoofing of addresses. It was a gmail address rather than a hotmail address from which we were contacted by Lisa Nunley (lisa4given). She also claimed she was not the Lisa Nunley we were just talking to, so there was no spoofing going on by the allegedly “second” Lisa.
When Ingrid wrote back to this “second” Lisa, using the first Lisa’s address (to see what would happen), lo and behold, the first Lisa answered Ingrid as if the letter was addressed to her. She did not pay attention or seem to notice that the mail was sent to the “wrong” Lisa. She also did not answer any questions we asked her about her authorship of the posts on Carla’s blog. Both Ingrid and I consequently asked for clarification, which she would not give at that time, contrary to lying assertions she later made on her blog.
Even if there were two Lisas, Dan, and there are not, Lisa Nunley has been deceitful and accusatory without substance or just cause. Both “Lisa Nunleys” came to us as proud, foolish women, totally devoid of substance and identical in spirit. Both equally condemned the testimony of God given in the Scriptures. We have several witnesses testifying to this and the evidence of our correspondence, which you are welcome to see if you like.
Even Lisa’s friend Jen testifies to this, as you will see in her recent reply, agreeing with the “stranger” Lisa Nunley from gmail, oblivious to the fact that this is supposedly another person.
Perhaps it does not matter to you that liars and murderers hold court in the Name of Christ, bringing shame to His Wonderful Name, but it certainly should. The worst part of it is that you are with them, aiding and supporting them. You made ignorant comments on Carla’s blog, a woman whose wicked, mocking tongue has been silenced by our speaking the truth to her. You had no idea of what we are about or doing, but there you were strengthening the hand of the wicked. Shame on you. Why do you follow wicked, silly women instead of following your own advice and knowing what you are talking about before saying anything? There is an urgent need for humbling and repentance in your life, my friend.
Paul’s reply to Jen:
—– Original Message —–
From: Paul Cohen
Cc: Lisa Nunley; kristina@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; rstark@…com ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; Victor Hafichuk ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Oh What A Tangled Web She Weaves
Ahem, Jen, you are replying to the doppelganger Lisa Nunley here, the one who says she knows nothing about your friend, Lisa Nunley. That is, of course, according to the lies we have been told by your friend.
—– Original Message —–
From: Victor Hafichuk
To: Paul Cohen ; joythruChrist@…com
Cc: Lisa Nunley ; kristina@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; rstark@…com ; Trevor & Ingrid Benson ; kncrolfe@…com
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: Oh What A Tangled Web She Weaves
Which is more likely to be of devils, lies and liars exposed by a vision, or the vision that tells the truth about the lies and the liar?
Lisa’s reply to Paul:
No… she is replying to your dippy, dawdling delusions you deceiving, diddling dupe
Letter from Ingrid:
—– Original Message —–
From: Trevor & Ingrid Benson
To: Lisa Nunley ; Lisa Nunley
Cc: rstark@…com ; kristina@…com ; dvandelaar@…com ; portrayingfemininegrace@…com ; joythruChrist@…com ; kncrolfe@…com ; fivesolasfamily@…net ; chelseyhall@…com ; jmikeratliff@…com ; Paul Cohen ; Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:06 AM
Subject: “…go ask your prophet…”
You will remember that you sent me the two emails below in response to a letter I wrote you about your blog and the video of your marriage testimony:
I do not own a blog and have no idea who you are talking about but obviously you are clueless. I am married with 3 girls of my own with a husband that I have been married to for 24 years.
How sad your life must be to make excuses in the name of Christ for what you have done.
I just googled “Lisa blog marriage video” then clicked on “contact”. Now I know why you think I must be that Lisa. Her e-mail is similar to mine. Perhaps you need to go ask your prophet what went wrong here and then go back to Belgium and raise your kids instead of run around with a bunch of fruitcakes.[END OF LETTERS]
In this second email you write: “Perhaps you need to go ask your prophet what went wrong here…”
Well, I did just that when I called Victor and the two of us asked the Lord to show us what we needed to know. That is when the Lord gave me the following vision as recorded in an email Paul Cohen sent you:
“I saw a picture of two female bodies standing side by side (I knew they were female because they wore dresses). Then the two bodies merged into one body, starting from the feet towards the head.”
So, the Lord showed “what went wrong here,” by revealing that, contrary to what you were claiming, and still are, there was only one Lisa Nunley, not two, and not a Lisa Nunley and a Kristi either. You thought that you could brazenly lie and not be found out, but the Lord has shown otherwise. As it is written:
“For nothing is secret that shall not be revealed; nor secret which shall not be known and come to be revealed.” (Luke 8:17 MKJV)
Lisa, you might be able to fool your friends, fool yourself, fool me (I was ready to believe you), but you cannot fool the Lord. Whether you like it or not, or believe it or not, He just sent prophets to you to show you that and much more. Will you ever admit to your lies?
Your last reply to Paul’s letter, which let Jen know that she was replying to the “fake” Lisa Nunley address, shows how far you are from doing that:
No… she is replying to your dippy, dawdling delusions you deceiving, diddling dupe[End of Letter]
That is the face we have seen, hiding behind the false one you show on your blog:
Bottomline… Press on for the glory of Christ Jesus alone.
Life is too short for drama & petty things, so laugh hard, love truly and forgive quickly.[End of Sayings]
A letter from someone anonymously using an e-mail address that looks like Trevor & Ingrid:
Greetings, and grace to you in the name of my Lord and my Savior Jesus Christ,
You may have noticed that I am sending this email to you as though I were Trevor and Ingrid Benson. I am not – but it is quite easy for me, or for anyone, to get a gmail account. I will explain why I did that later in this email.
As I write this, I am of course hoping that your zeal for forgiveness, self inspection, and public repentance is as robust as your zeal to persecute Lisa Nunley has been.
I mention this because I am quite willing to extend this grace to you: even though what has been playing out here seems to paint you and your compatriots as, well, less than discerning, and more: less than gracious – yet I will presume for the sake of my Savior that you are simply immature and thereby easily deceived and deluded, yet this is the grace I extend, I presume that for all your error, you are well meaning and “right hearted”. I presume as well that that you are capable both of reason and if you can be shown cause for it, capable of repentance as well.
Allow me to appeal to your reason first, for without it one is hardly able to judge matters aright, and my presumption is that given pause, and irrefutable information you may plumb the depths of your discernment and see what can be found there.
First, I suggest that you do a search on google for the email address “lisa…@hotmail.com” – you will find that Google returns many pages where that email address is found. You will also see the dates those pages were saved on the respective servers. This will (or at least it should) establish in your understanding two things: The email address used by Lisa Nunley has for years been lisa4given@hotmail – and also that she has been very public in using it.
Now I want you to do the same search for “lisa…@gmail.com” – which is the email address from which you received the emails you quoted from. What do you find? You find find not a single page.
This establishes that fact that the email address “lisa…@gmail.com” is at the very least, not publicly used by anyone, and suggests much to anyone familiar with spoofing email accounts.
It should be no surprise to you that there are people out there who have some investment in religion, but no investment in Christ. I am sure I needn’t spell it out – I am speaking of counterfeits who wear the name but lack the Spirit. Likewise there are immature believers – people who are genuine in their faith, but weak in their understanding, or have been instructed in some false thing, for so it happens, and even often.
We must ask ourselves, is it not possible that someone – some immature believer, or perhaps some false brother or sister – wanting to throw arrows at your ministry (or whatever), but too cowardly to do so openly – or perhaps even someone who for whatever reason has resented Lisa Nunley or her husband for whatever reason – the motivation is not important, but isn’t it possible that such a one wanting to either attack your ministry or bring to shame Lisa’s name, would create a brand spanking new – never before used email address, that so closely resembles Lisa Nunley’s email address that you and your friends didn’t stop to think that it might not be Lisa doing this thing, but an imposter?
I think it is not only possible, but ask you to consider the likelihood of it.
You can read Lisa’s blog. She writes not as someone who is flighty, or prone to goofing. She is a careful writer – and that suggests, at the very least – a careful mind. Now it seems to me that if Lisa had wanted to email you, she would have used her regular email address (the hotmail account) unless of course she wanted to email you incognito. But if she wanted to email you incognito, I would have expected her to create an email account that would obscure her identity, and not suggest it – if you take my meaning.
The pattern I see, looking at the internet record, is that Lisa has been openly using her hotmail email address for every purpose attached to her name. If I may be so bold – the one thing we can be sure of is if the address is lisa…@hotmail.com then it is in fact Lisa Nunley sending out the email. But we see no other email accounts for her name showing up in the public record – and we see nothing of this gmail account from which you received whatever it was that has so offended you and caused you to call Lisa a liar.
Given therefore this verifiable history – that Lisa has been perfectly open and public in all her discourse – freely making available personal information about her faith and her family – we do well to consider whether or not it makes sense that such a one would suddenly, and inexplicably generate an email account that resembles her other account, and  use it to offend you, then  deny that it was her when you sought out the “real” Lisa Nunley.
It seems most likely to me that either  someone (some malcontent) has created a gmail account specifically for the purpose of passing themselves off as Lisa, and engaging in the worst sort of tomfoolery, at the expense of the real Lisa, or  your group has singled out Lisa and is fabricating the whole thing to bring attention to your own folly.
My presumption is, of course, the former.
I ask you, in the name of Christ, to consider these things.
Now, the problem that presents itself, and I think is a big one, is that you have some prophet or other who is seeing visions, and you someone else who is interpreting them – and you seem to regard such things as impeccable – that is, you seem at least, (by way of how you present it) that you are not terribly willing to entertain the possibility that your prophet or the interpreter has goofed. I hope that your group is not of that variety that suddenly stops looking for truth simply because some self proclaimed prophet says “thus says the lord” – but is more Berean – and checks to see if these things are so.
I have checked to see if the charges you are bringing against Lisa “are so” – and it seems they are not founded upon fact, but upon presumption, followed by subjective interpretation of a highly questionable vision.
It seems good to me then to counsel you to reconsider the certainty of your persecution.
On a final note: If you are convinced that the genuine Lisa ought to be excommunicated because she doesn’t acknowledge your groups visions or respect your authority, that is fine – excommunicate her. Surely if you are right and the Lord is with you it will do some good. But spreading this around by emailing people who have nothing to do with this? I am not in Lisa’s fellowship – this has nothing to do with me, and likely nothing to do with most of the people you copied in on this. Good gravy. Read Matthew 18 a few times and tremble at what a mess you are making of it.
For His name sake, for His glory – and for your instruction,
A servant of the Lord.
Paul and Victor’s reply:
Greetings Anonymous Accuser Who Pretends to Help while Condemning the Truth and Those Who Walk with Him,
Is that you, Dan? You have not answered my former letter, yet now we get this reply to Ingrid that sounds very much like you. That you write us anonymously, yet we know who you are, answers one of the main questions in this matter with Lisa Nunley, which is that when the tone, words, and spirit are all identical, and circumstances allow for only one possibility, there is good reason to know that the person with whom you are speaking and dealing has been identified.
If this is not Dan, nevertheless the words of this letter will apply to you, too (and whoever you are, let it be known that those who speak the Truth and genuinely represent Jesus Christ do not cower and conceal themselves while doing so).
The principal rule is that if the person speaks like Lisa Nunley, uses the same words as Lisa Nunley, and replies to you when you speak to Lisa Nunley, it must be Lisa Nunley.
You are mistaken about this situation because making wrong assumptions and ignoring the evidence that is right before your eyes. Why are you so blind to reality? Because that is the way of deluded religious fools, who, like Don Quixote, see what they want to see and wax eloquent, mixing common sense and true principles with delusion, giving lofty lectures, as you do in this letter to Ingrid, which make sense but miss the mark completely, all at the same time. You are playing the part of the hero who comes to save the day, but is in dire need of being saved himself.
Yes, the giant Don Quixote thinks to slay is actually a windmill. It is all very humorous in his case, as Cervantes shows in his novel; however it is much more serious and tragic in your case.
Those whom you see as the enemies of God and man are the friends of both, and those whom you see as the friends of God are His enemies. This is the worst of all combinations, to think you are serving God while serving Satan. You sign off your letter saying you serve the Lord, but you serve Him only as Satan did with Job, and as Calvin did, who thought to do God service while murdering Christ’s brethren.
We speak therefore in hopes that you will someday repent, come to God and receive a sound mind in Christ, and then you can do what you preach to others:
“Allow me to appeal to your reason first, for without it one is hardly able to judge matters aright, and my presumption is that given pause, and irrefutable information you may plumb the depths of your discernment and see what can be found there…. I ask you, in the name of Christ, to consider these things.”
We would be asking too much to expect this of you now, while your pride is at high tide, but, nevertheless, we sow the truth regardless of whether you will listen or believe. It is certain you will come to know the truth at some time in this life or the next, because it is God’s will that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. That includes Calvin, who never repented in this lifetime, and Lisa, too, who will not either.
Quite to the contrary of thinking to excommunicate Lisa, we never knew her to be a believer. One does not excommunicate the tares posing as ministers of, or believers in, Christ, although one tries and exposes them, as we have Lisa. She is a phony through and through, which we saw from the beginning. This judgment has nothing to do with her deception in the matter of these e-mails. Her lying only served as confirmation of what we saw in her from the first of her communications. She came at us as a devil and never changed, except when trying to deceive us, which was no change at all.
Contrary to your assumption that we are not familiar with her writings, we have red enough from her blog to see and know that it is all intellectual, spiritualized hogwash. In the sight of God there is nothing whatsoever of value there. Not a stitch. It is representative of spiritual Sodom, fit to be burned, and even now is being burned by the fire of God, the truth that comes out of our mouths.
You assume we have not thought of the procedures or logical considerations that you listed, however several of us did and had all those things and more. We jumped to no certain conclusion, but let the facts speak for themselves throughout the process of our communications. Furthermore, we did what all believers should do, which is to ask God to show us the truth so that we could do what was right in His sight. What better thing can one do? Who but a true believer would do so? We want to know the Truth from the Lord. That was our only motive.
However, you seem to think yourself a prophet, apparently self-proclaimed, who can divine our motives:
“As I write this, I am of course hoping that your zeal for forgiveness, self inspection, and public repentance is as robust as your zeal to persecute Lisa Nunley has been.”
It has never been Ingrid’s or our motive to persecute anyone. By accusing us of intending harm to Lisa, you are claiming to know our hearts and are acting as a false prophet because you are in error while exercising spiritual discernment and judgment. On the contrary, we have tried to help Lisa and desire only her good. Your judgment is solely after the appearance.
Have you red the actual correspondence? Much of it you do not have, and you have not asked for it. How is it you judge us as ignorant, slipshod, and prejudiced when you display all those characteristics yourself? I offered you the pertinent files, but you did not even bother to reply, much less ask for them. You base your opinions on a portion of the available data, and the crucial evidence you have you do not utilize. And you have the nerve to lecture us about how to responsibly ascertain the facts? You are a proud and foolish hypocrite.
Adding to your offenses against God, you ridicule the fact that the Lord would give an answer to those making their requests of Him. You mock what is holy, the relationship between God and His children who look to Him for help. The Scriptures clearly teach us to ask of Him and They promise that He will answer the sincere seeker. But your doctrinal standing does not allow for God to manifest Himself as He chooses. You have made yourself His judge, rather than His subject. You are a liar, and your religious posturing, like Lisa Nunley’s, is puke in God’s face, yet you pontificate as if you are accepted and pleasing to Him. Anything but, Dan. I do not exaggerate. The Scriptures say the same thing: Your righteousness is as menstruous rags. As I wrote in the last letter, you greatly need to humble yourself or be humbled.
Your unbelief is manifested as you speak of the vision the Lord gave Ingrid with thinly veiled scorn of God’s gifts. Your scorn is companion to a lack of attention or comprehension to what actually happened, even in carnal terms. You miss the fact that the Lord gave Ingrid the vision, not Victor. You fail to consider that the meaning of the vision was made known to us after we had already done our due diligence and the identity of the person in question became clear, exactly as the vision showed it would. Victor and I did not even know about the vision until after we could see that Lisa was lying to us, whether she did so consciously or not. The vision had nothing to do with what we saw, except that when we heard it, there was confirmation of what God had shown us through the circumstances, and it demonstrated His sovereignty, glory, and faithfulness, all of which you despise.
Therefore it is entirely consistent that you should despise the ministries of God, calling a servant of the Lord “self-proclaimed.” What evidence do you have that Victor is self-proclaimed and not God-proclaimed? Because we declare that we serve God and are sent by Him, therefore we are self-proclaimed? Here is the situation in a nutshell, where you play the part of your fathers, and we the part of His children:
“Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died, and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall by no means experience death.’ Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? Also the prophets died. Whom do You make Yourself out to be? Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father Who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that He is our God. And yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I would say that I do not know Him, I would be like you, a liar; but I do know Him, and I keep His word” (John 8:51-55 EMTV).
In all of the scenarios you spell out in your letter, you dismiss the possibility that Lisa is lying, because, you say, she has no reason, that you can tell, for doing so. First I will establish the fact that she is lying, and then I will tell you why she lies.
You say that the most likely scenario, if we are not lying and fabricating this mess (which we are not), is that a malcontent person has been passing him or herself off as Lisa, trying to make her life miserable. There are a number of reasons why this cannot be. The first and most obvious one is that the person who is writing to us from the gmail account, the one you propose is a spoof, is also posting on Lisa’s blog, using the same words. Here is an example, starting with an e-mail I received from the supposed imposter Lisa Nunley at gmail. Please note the time and address:
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
That is you and all of Victor’s followers.
An hour later the following appeared on Lisa’s blog:
Specifically for Victor and all of his followers:
“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.–I Timothy 4:1-2
Posted by: Lisa Nunley | April 11, 2008 03:56 PM
This is the insurmountable problem you face with your theories, Dan. The “phony” Lisa Nunley and the “real” Lisa Nunley have been saying the same things and using each others’ e-mail addresses. There is no spoofing going on here, only total agreement and harmony in words and spirit. The Lisa at gmail answers us in the name of the Lisa at hotmail, and the latter takes credit for all the words of the former. Even if it were not the same person, we are certainly not wrong to treat “them” as one, just as I write to anonymous accuser and you, Dan, who have the same complaint and attitude towards this situation.
The bigger problem and issue than lying in this one incident is what Lisa stands for overall, which is Satan, the liar and murderer from the beginning, whose children, like Calvin and Lisa, are always found hating and persecuting the saints in the Name of God. They love themselves, their religious personas and the praise of men, not God. That is why they hate Him through His servants that shine the Light of Christ on their imitative and false presentations. That is why they kill, whether metaphorically or physically, those who bring the Light to them.
You object that the “fake” Lisa could be the “real” Lisa in the following manner:
“…we do well to consider whether or not it makes sense that such a one would suddenly, and inexplicably generate an email account that resembles her other account, and  use it to offend you, then  deny that it was her when you sought out the “real” Lisa Nunley.”
There are several reasons your postulates don’t work, mainly because you are not taking into account the whole picture. Lisa had already been talking to us on Carla’s blog, that is, to Victor and me, where she had started out immediately being offensive with us, though we were not offended or offending. Victor wrote in reply to Lisa’s sarcastic question about his proverbs:
“You write: ‘ … and just remember your Proverb #275 before responding: ‘Words hastily spoken are like lettuce on the teeth of one smiling.’
I do try to remember and have not spoken lightly or hastily. We cannot help but stand before our God soberly. You see the trouble we take to reply to you, even though you scoff. How about you? Are you here to humbly learn or are you here to mock and show yourself clever before God?”
“I have a genuinely difficult time taking you seriously because your words are as passing gas.”
This left no possibility that another could come along and “ruin” Lisa’s positive and benign demeanor with us, because no such thing existed.
More importantly, however, Lisa did not contact us with her new gmail address, but rather Ingrid Benson, another believer. There was no reason in Lisa’s mind to entirely disguise her identity because she likely figured Ingrid did not know who was writing her. It appears Lisa felt like she might have some success planting doubts in Ingrid’s mind or perhaps even convincing her that Victor is a false prophet. Another person on Carla’s blog, Jen, had brought Ingrid’s testimony up to Lisa, particularly pointing out how deluded she thought Ingrid had been under Victor’s influence. Shortly after this Ingrid received a letter from Lisa, wherein Lisa did not say who she was or what motivated her to write, but expressed the same thoughts that Jen spoke to her on Carla’s blog in the same voice as Lisa’s.
So the only deception here was Lisa not being honest about who she was and what she was up to. Then, when Ingrid brought up things that Lisa did not want to hear about herself, Lisa tried to escape being confronted or dealing with the matter by denying she was the Lisa Nunley with the blog who was now talking to Ingrid. Lisa wanted out, fast, and did what she did without really thinking. She likely thought or hoped that Ingrid would believe her story that it was another Lisa Nunley with whom she was speaking and that would be the end of it.
Isn’t it always the case that the religious, in their persecution of the saints of God, act rashly and insanely? Were not the Jews who crucified the Christ mad? Was not Calvin mad, who persecuted and killed Servetus? Over what, the “trinity,” which is not even found in the Bible? True prophets do not kill others over true doctrines, but false ones do over false doctrines. Lisa is simply following in her father’s footsteps, another self-righteous, deluded, rabid hater of God, concealing herself in sheep’s clothing, as did Calvin and the Pharisees, whom the Lord called vipers, hypocrites, and whitewashed tombs.
You describe this phenomenon yourself, although you do not recognize that you are speaking of yourself and Lisa. Typical Don Quixote:
“It should be no surprise to you that there are people out there who have some investment in religion, but no investment in Christ. I am sure I needn’t spell it out – I am speaking of counterfeits who wear the name but lack the Spirit.”
You deny and deride the gifts, but claim to have the Spirit of God? You are in all delusion and contradiction, a lying fool, and surely you also hate us for telling you the truth.
Have you not noticed, Dan, that Lisa has never publicly denied the charge we have made that she lied when writing to Ingrid? Lisa now claims that she has requested of us many times that we do not write her, another lie, since she only asked me once, and Ingrid once, while yet accusing and ridiculing us on her blog and continuing to send us e-mails! The stove calling the kettle black! Perhaps, though, you can now write Lisa and ask her if she is willing to publicly declare on her blog that she did not lie in this matter of her identity in writing to Ingrid. You can share this letter with her if you choose to, so Lisa has these facts here in front of her as we have presented them and as you now know them.
In all your hypocrisy and religious games, little did you people suspect that the Lord would come, as He has by us, His anointed servants, even as He said He would, as a thief, to find you gravely wanting, appointing you your portion with the hypocrites. We have been sent to expose the false, and false you all are, and because we are not like you in word and deed, you condemn us as false. But what you are and say and do has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. He has told and shown us so, and has commanded us to tell you so.
We are here to expose you, while you threaten us with lawsuit. Typical Calvinistic spirit, very untypical Christian spirit. Yet while we have spoken objective and godly truth to you, many of you have reviled and slandered us, as though you knew what you were talking about. You don’t, and God is here by us telling you so. Lisa insists on no more response on our part, yet continues to blaspheme and to slander and revile us. It would seem we would have far more substance to sue her, but we will not (unless for some reason the Lord tells us otherwise). Here is why:
1 Peter 2:22-24 MKJV
(22) He who did no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth,
Is that like Lisa, people, your “wonderful sister in Christ” and like your practice of anonymity and pretense, Dan (or similar)?
(23) Who when He was reviled did not revile in return. When He suffered, He did not threaten, but gave Himself up to Him who judges righteously.
He called such as you vipers, whited sepulchers and hypocrites, yet did not revile. They reviled Him, speaking lies, while He spoke the Truth about them. While they threatened and you pass veiled threats or make suggestions of threats, we have not done so. As He, so do we, by and for Him.
(24) He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness; by Whose stripes you were healed.
However, with Him we say that it will not go well for any of you who have stood in your presumption, arrogance and blasphemies. We have come, by Him, and we are your last straw. That is no threat; it is a statement of fact, based on the ways of God, which and Whom you have never known.
Paul has now answered your first letter; however, there are a few things that I would like to add and ask.
First of all, Lisa is the one who initiated the correspondence by writing me, calling me names and accusing me falsely, yet she will not recognize that I have a right to answer. When she does not like the answer she gets, she calls it harassment, while you call it persecution. During the thread of correspondence I had with her, I repeatedly called for a reasonable conversation, which she never was able or willing to carry. All I ever got from her were opinions, insults and mocking, and, at the very best, when she was trying to fool me into thinking she was not who I thought she was, “polite,” sneaky and “tactful” avoidance. Never did she support what she was telling me by Scriptures or godly counsel. So, I ask you who is harassing and persecuting whom here?
Secondly, you say in your letter, “yet I will presume for the sake of my Savior that you are simply immature and thereby easily deceived and deluded.” As you yourself say, this is a presumption. But what if I was “immature”?
“In that hour Jesus rejoiced in Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, Father, for so it was pleasing before You” (Luke 10:21).
This is what the Lord declares, contradicting what you are saying.
Cannot God choose an “immature” believer to speak His words if it so pleases Him?
“ Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings You have ordained strength, because of ones vexing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease” (Psalms 8:2 MKJV).
Can He not give him or her clear vision to discern and keep him or her from deception and delusion? Will He not answer an “immature” believer if he or she asks Him for guidance?
“Or what man is there of you, if his son asks a loaf, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks a fish, will he give him a snake? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him?” (Matthew 7:9-11 MKJV)
What discernment do you have to judge whether that answer is from Him or not or even whether that believer is “immature” or not?
Dan’s reply to Ingrid:
Thank your for taking the time to email me.
If you have read my recent reply to Paul, you will know that I am willing to investigate and see if Lisa is at fault, providing someone can send me some hard evidence. In keeping that commitment I contacted Lisa, who really is known to me only through her blog, and then, only distantly – and was certainly unaware that I had entered into this discussion on any level.
I explained to her how, though I have nothing whatsoever to do with any of this, yet because I have been involved in it by replying to Paul’s unsolicited email, and because you seemed sincere and I replied to your email with the same flavor as to Paul’s – that of calling you to examine what is obvious, and to jump to no conclusions if there are reasonable explanations – only to receive Paul’s reply again, which more or less called me an unbeliever, and began to grow shrill and less reasonable in tone.
Notwithstanding, I replied with some free advice, and explained that as I have no stake in this, I was quite willing to examine any hard evidence he was willing to provide and determine for myself if Lisa was as an unrepentant sinner as he was claiming. I am, as can be assumed I suppose, not overly impressed by voluminous writing, or unsubstantiated accusations – I could hardly count myself a fair and sober person if I picked up a torch and pitchfork just because some loud crowd is passing by. I am the sort who listens and asks questions.
This I have done.
As far as I can one or more of the members of your cadre were emailed and insulted. That is unfortunate and cannot be condoned. Like reasonable people you sought to deal with the situation as seemed right to you, and that is when things began to unravel.
On the other side of the table, as I understand it, Lisa had been counseling some person in her home, and it was that person who used Lisa’s computer without Lisa’s consent or knowledge to send the original mail. Whatever reply came from that did not go to the original sender, but went to Lisa’s email account – and however she reacted, she was reacting to what she thought was some identity error – when it became clear to her what had happened, she had already lost credibility with your group, and so the escalation ensued, with your people combing the archives of other people’s websites for email addresses to “expose” Lisa on.
I was one such person.
It is my opinion, and I hope it become yours, combing blogs for email addresses to include in accusatory emails is poor form on the best of days.
Notwithstanding, the point is I have given your people opportunity to demonstrate (through tangible evidence) the charges being leveled at Lisa, and I find your group wanting in this department. And because I am a fair person, I have contacted Lisa and asked for her account – and I find it fits the evidence like a well tailored suit.
I don’t doubt that your group was offended, but if you are truly interested in satisfaction for your misfortune, you will not acheive it by trying to drag an innocent party through the ringer. If you are truly concerned, pray for the soul of the one who sent you the original offensive mail, forgive Lisa if you feel she is in the wrong – for if you cannot forgive her, Christ will by no means forgive you. And if you can forgive her, good gravy – act like it.
You say: “Lisa had been counseling some person in her home, and it was that person who used Lisa’s computer without Lisa’s consent or knowledge to send the original mail.”
Is Lisa claiming that only the original email was not hers? If this was the truth, it only explains the ‘original’ email, which was certainly accusatory, but not insulting or mocking (not that I was insulted or offended, contrary to what you assume) like the following ones were. What about those? If that is Lisa’s explanation, it does not make a bit of a difference, because, as I said, the subsequent emails were worse than the first one.
Or are you meaning to say that someone broke into Lisa’s account (which would mean that she possibly would need a password to do so) not only once, but several times without Lisa noticing foreign incoming or outgoing mail on her account, and this over a period of several weeks; are you saying that each time, this person happened to be there to “check” Lisa’s mail before Lisa could see it?
Likewise, are you trying to tell me that this person Lisa was counselling also broke into Lisa’s blog (which would also possibly require a password) to post emails that she had sent me, and all this without Lisa knowing or doing anything about it afterwards (those posts were still there last I saw), if it was “without her consent or knowledge”?
Are you trying to tell me that she had a known thief and proven untrustworthy person that had stolen her identity in the past in her home, and was not keeping an eye on things?
All this is not making a whole lot of sense and sounds quite unbelievable to me.
Furthermore, you have not answered any of the questions I asked in my letter. You have given me a lot of verbose convoluted “eloquence,” but no answers.
Finally, where do you get the idea that we have not forgiven Lisa and are not acting like it? It is not a matter of forgiveness on our part, but rather of repentance on hers. This issue is well beyond a mistake or slip on her part. She lives a life of schizophrenic deception, deceiving many. Two things, earthly and Heavenly, tell it: one, the visible, tangible facts, and two, God has revealed it to us in answer to prayer. “Ask and you shall receive.” Two witnesses. You seem to be quite incapable of appreciating either. Willful ignorance and foolishness are not of God.
To forgive Lisa does not mean that we should remain silent and not expose evil for what it is.
Dan’s reply to Paul:
Greetings Paul, et.al.
I did write the email to the Bensons, and I withheld my name because I was more concerned about the drain on my time than I was in attempting to defend my advice to you all.
This was selfish and unloving on my part, and I confess it before you all, and ask your forgiveness in the matter.
I am concerned that you judge me an unbeliever – not that I regard your opinion as anything but your own opinion, but I marvel in morbid concern that you imagine yourself capable of such judgment when God will not trust even the angels of heaven with such a profound task.
In Matthew 13:24-30 we read,
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (KJV)
The Greek word translated here as “tares” (zizanion) describes a common, first-century, weed: darnel, (“bearded rye-grass”). Bearded rye-grass looks identical to wheat during the growing season – but at harvest time the two can be distinguished. The instruction given to the servants is to let them grow until harvest, and at that time they will have discernment enough to distinguish between tare and wheat. The thrust here is that the immature wheat is identical to the tare …
Christ explains the parable in Matthew 13:36-43:
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Note that we are not at liberty to impose our own subjective interpretation onto what Christ has plainly said here. He explains that the tares are children of the wicked one; the wheats are children of the kingdom, and the servants are the angels who will gather up the children of the wicked one and cast them into the furnace of fire after the world has ended (that is, after the harvest).
One day we who are in Christ will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye – we will put off corruption, and put on incorruption, and our flesh will be redeemed just as we who are in Christ have our spirits presently redeemed – and on that day, when no trace of corruption is found in us – that is, on that day when all things have been put beneath Christ’s feet, and the kingdom has been delivered to God, I don’t doubt that we will be wise enough to judge even angels, as Paul teaches we will (future tense), but for today, we reason that if Jesus Himself during the incarnation was “lower than the angels” – how much lower are we? That is, if we are presently less than angels, and angels are not fit to judge between wheat and tares – how much less so are we?
I write these things for your consideration. If you exalt yourself above angels, you exalt yourself above even the incarnation of our Lord – and I tremble to think of the blindness that can allow such a thing.
Now, as to this whole Lisa Nunley thing. You have said that she has incriminated herself as a liar and deceiver, and I, for my part, have merely cautioned you all that in my opinion, which is offered because you have included me in this whole thing via unsolicited emails, that it seemed to me from my uninformed perspective, that it was far more likely that someone was impersonating Lisa than that Lisa was willfully being deceitful in the matter, and all my previous correspondence should give testimony to that.
Yet you have explained now (twice I believe) that you have irrefutable evidence to back up your claims.
Before I address my concern there, I should like to make an observation. Assuming that your claim is true, that is, assuming Lisa has been deceitful and a liar, have you really handled this in a way that honors Christ? I am personally unaware of any reason why you should have copied me in on this whole email thing – why me? If there is some document linking me to this mess, I should like a link to it so that I may (at the very least) understand how it is that you involved me in this whole thing.
I say that because my first impression of you and your ilk comes from being included in some email that has nothing (as far as I can tell) to do with me – and if it has nothing to do with me, it causes me to immediately regard you all as less than discerning – which isn’t really the best way to begin a discussion.
Now, you have mentioned that you have documented proof that Lisa is a liar and a deceiver, which you make mention of but provide no links to. I confess, I have not the time or the patience to comb the Internet looking for this evidence, nor am I the sort to take your word for it – but being an honest fellow, and certainly willing to follow the truth wherever it may lead, if you are willing to email me a short reply pointing me to each instance of correspondence on the various blogs etc, I shall examine for myself if there is evidence enough to warrant your tirade, and if it turns out to be so, I shall confront Lisa myself. You have requested of me that I exercise reason at the high tide of my pride, and I am glad to entertain such, if you (for your part) can provide me the links to examine these things myself. Hearsay is, after all, not terribly convincing.
As to passing on this correspondence to Lisa, I am not at liberty to do so, as she clearly has no interest in pursuing what she regards as harassment, and so I hope you will excuse me from adding to, what she regards as unwelcome harassment.
As to all my “hypocrisy and religious games” and as to how “typical” I am of whatever it is you despise, I invite you to examine my testimony and tell me where I am lacking:
My father was an atheist, and my mother a non-practicing Catholic. I heard a little bit about Jesus growing up, I knew that he was the son of God, and I knew that he died on a cross to save people, but I had never heard the gospel. I was taught that so long as my goodness outweighed my wickedness, then I would go to heaven, and if not, I would go to hell. Like most people, I hadn’t killed or raped anyone, and while I was afraid of going to hell, I was not really convinced that I would end up there – since I wasn’t as bad (in my own estimation) as I could be.
During my childhood I was exposed to the standard “easy believism” gospel – ask Jesus into your heart and you will be saved. I must have asked Jesus into my heart on dozens of occasions – whenever I was afraid that I was about to die. There was never a lick of repentance, nor any desire to ruled by the Lord of creation – just fear, and ignorance.
It wasn’t until I was a young man that I first heard the true gospel. My girlfriend of two years had broken up with me, and as a parting shot she suggested that I should become a missionary and move to Africa in order to get out of her life. Because I was immature, I thought perhaps if I did that, it would prove my “love” for her, and after my return from Africa she would feel so guilty she would take me back. I am not proud of my foolishness – but I am thankful for it, because that day I looked in the Yellow Pages and phoned the first church that mentioned “missionaries” in their ad. The pastor invited me to come and have an interview, and so I went.
We sat down and he asked me where it was that I was interested in being missionary, and I replied that I should like Africa, or if not Africa, some place exotic and far away. I really didn’t have a clue what it was that missionaries did – I thought they just went and did good deeds in far away places. Within minutes it became clear to this pastor that most of my “religion” was superstition and nonsense – idle and empty musings that together painted a clear picture of confusion and ignorance of the truth.
His next question was quite direct, and I didn’t understand it. He asked me when I was saved. Saved? Saved from what? I asked him to clarify – “What do you mean saved?”
He replied, “I mean when were you born again?” Born again? What was he talking about. I asked, “Do you mean when was I baptized? I was baptized as a baby. I am Catholic!” You see, I had always thought that believing in Jesus meant believing that there was a Jesus, and having been exposed to the sort of “ask Jesus into your heart” nonsense that passes itself off as the gospel these days, I was pretty sure that I was a “Christian” – in that I wasn’t a Buddhist, a Muslim, or an atheist, and that I believed that there was a God, who did have a Son, and didn’t that make me a Christian?
But the pastor pressed on, and it was clear that I did not have a clue. Finally he simply asked me where I thought I would go once I died. I explained that no one knows where they will go when they die until they get there. But he suggested that this was not true, that God hasn’t left this a mystery for us, but has plainly explained in his word exactly where all men will go. In this way he proceeded to show me that I was a sinner, and more than this, that my sin condemned me before God.
In desperation I appealed to my good works – hadn’t I done good works? He turned my attention to that passage from Isaiah [Isaiah 64:6] that plainly described all my “good deeds” were in fact not good, but unclean, and unacceptable to God – that is, that I had nothing good in me, but was only and wholly sinful, that there was no thing in me worthy of mercy, worthy of redemption – and that as a sinner I was condemned, and rightly so.
I knew in that moment, because the scriptures suddenly had meaning to me – that if I should drop dead right then and there, I would certainly be condemned before God, and (as I have said) rightly so. I had never – in my whole life – been confronted with that truth. I had always allowed myself to ignore God because I thought my eternal destination was undetermined. But moment I realized that I was really and truly condemned – I began to tremble and truly fear God.
The magnitude of my sin, and not only my own sin, but all the sins of everyone suddenly pressed in on me – I couldn’t deny the truth, I had read it with my own eyes as the pastor had flipped from verse to verse in scripture – yet all I could think was how was it possible for anyone to be saved?? We were all sinners, all condemned – all hope in the world seemed to drain out of me, but into that void the pastor began to speak the truth about who Jesus is and what he came to do.
He explained that even though I was condemned and a sinner, yet God sent His Son Jesus to provide a way for sinners to be saved. He explained that the way into this salvation was not through being good, or saying little prayers – but through accepting by faith that God really did make this provision, and that if turned away from rebellion, and by faith put my faith in Christ and only in Christ to save me – that He would do just that. God was not a liar, and the promise was available to me, and to anyone else who was willing to turn away from sin and turn towards Christ in faith for their salvation.
I will never forget the moment that became clear to me. It was like – what?? Faith? FAITH??? The truth of what was taught was immediately undeniable – I knew that this was the only way to Christ, that ever other way was false, and I knew that I was at a crossroads in my life. I loved my sin, and I didn’t want to let it go for anything or anyone. I didn’t want to be a goodie-two shoes Christian, I wanted to live my life full of sin and go to heaven when I died – but now I realized that I couldn’t embrace my sin and come to Christ by faith, I had to choose. I can’t describe the struggle except to say that one moment I was utterly convinced that I could never, ever, ever give myself to Christ in that way – I could never turn from my sin, for I loved it too dearly, and I was utterly unwilling to let it go – and then in the next moment that promise of forgiveness – that promise that I could be accepted by God, sinner though I was, in Christ – in that moment a love welled up in me for Christ that was so much larger than any objection, that I cried out in my spirit and surrendered myself for all eternity to Him who was willing to give Himself for me.
I held nothing back – he could have my life, and my obedience for ever and ever, in less than a moment the man who was once there, once a rebel, once an enemy, was now utterly the property of Christ.
I can’t really describe what happened next, except to say that it was entirely unexpected. In the moment that I surrendered everything to Christ I felt as though I was a screen door through which all the waters of Niagara falls was flowing. It was this indescribable sense of cleanness – of holiness washing through me, leaving in its wake a sense of communion with God that was intense and full of joy and peace. I can describe it no other way than to say that I had full assurance of God’s presence, acceptance, and the result was unspeakable joy.
I tried to describe what had just happened to the pastor, but I was certain I was inarticulate. Yet like a fire in my brain a text of scripture that I had always thought proved that Jesus was a fraud suddenly and completely made perfect sense to me. I won’t bother to describe details that are of great import to me, but would seem meaningless and small to others, it is enough to say that in that moment the bible stopped being a bunch of contrary, irreconcilable notions, and sudden became a perfectly knit unit, and fully corroborated within itself.
That is the day that I was born again. The words of truth in scripture – the gospel – opened my heart to believe the truth, and when I did Christ became real, and not just some idea.
Notwithstanding – I was an immature babe, and my walk with the Lord had only just begun. Sin found me again, and I was deceived into believing that God no longer loved me, wanted me, or would ever accept me again – and for years, though I loved the Lord and could never fully deny Him, yet I lived in ignorance and fear.
Yet one day a man came into my life who loved the Lord, loved His word, and was willing to show me what God’s word said. He opened God’s word with me and showed me that there was hope for me, and so one night, in the quiet of my bedroom, when my wife was away for the weekend, I poured my heart out to God.
That night I had a dream. In it Christ was baptizing people and I came to him and was ashamed of what I had done with my life. His reply was so loving and tender I cannot rightly put it into words, but the thrust of it was that the life I had lived was never what he had intentioned for me, that his heart was broken by what I had done with my life – not that He was ashamed of me – but that He ached for all my suffering – that it was never His will for me to suffer so. I woke up that morning on fire. I had such a hunger for God’s word, I leapt out of bed and ran to my bible. I had always found reading the bible to be tiresome – yet suddenly it was life itself – I couldn’t devour it fast enough. I was like a starving man, and here was the food of life. I read the bible cover to cover in a matter of months, and again, and again before a year had passed my wife came to the Lord. The profound change she saw in me testified to the gospel I was sharing with her almost daily. Soon my brother likewise came to the Lord, having seen the change in my life, and having been explained the gospel right. Like myself, his life turned around in a heart beat. Since then others have come too, I do not seek to give some list of what God has done in some effort to validate myself before you – I only mention these things so that you have some background information by which you can judge me as to whether or not I am His child.
Not that your opinion of my salvation is anything to me, it isn’t, but rather I am not ashamed of Christ who saved me, and I relish every opportunity to give testimony to what was done for me – a sinner.
I don’t consider myself your judge, though I make it no secret that I regard your mystical experiences with suspicion. It is not impiety or unbelief that causes someone to act like a Berean – but the love of the Lord and a delight in truth. I don’t deny that God can speak to us in visions and/or dreams, what I deny is that I am (or anyone else is) under obligation to accept as valid every claim that comes through the door. What good is discernment if we are to set it aside because someone says they had a vision?
So, though I was by no means seeking inclusion in this thing, yet I invite you to provide me with the requisite links to all your hard evidence, and in good faith I will examine them and determine whether or not the only conclusion possible is that the gmail account and the hotmail account are being penned by the same person. If I find it so, you will have my apologies and thanks, but if I find that there even the hint of uncertainty or that I must draw conclusions based on your intuition… then I shall at least know who is likely in the right, and who is in the lie.
If you cannot provide direct references, please understand that as a rational, thinking person I am obligated by a sober desire for truth to conclude that you are either wrong, or are incapable of showing otherwise – and in either case I will find myself unwilling to entertain any more of this.
Your in Christ,
I began this letter before seeing your most recent reply to Ingrid. You now claim, apparently from Lisa’s ongoing misinformation, that we gathered your name by combing her blog. We did no such thing, and you should know better than to take someone’s word as true, especially someone known for lying, without checking the facts yourself. Have you not a single discerning bone in your body or desire for truth?
Apparently you do not pay much attention to what you say and to whom. You demonstrate a careless, lawless mouth. You offered the following unsupported opinion about us and the paper we sent Carla Rolfe (The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin), which Lisa seconded as follows, on Carla’s blog:
“What is amazing to me is the level of blindness seems to always be trumped by the level of zeal.
Daniel | Homepage | 03.28.08 – 12:35 pm | #
I am so deluded. I really did not think there were people out there like this. It is really quite heart-breaking.
Lisa Nunley | Homepage | 03.29.08 – 9:36 am | #”
Lisa then asked mocking questions of Victor, as mentioned in my last letter to you. Subsequently we had more conversation with her on Carla’s blog and it was after that when she contacted Ingrid and began lying to us about it. We had asked for clarification of who said what, since she gave us a story (different than what you have been told) about someone using her name (not her computer) to contact Ingrid. She would never directly and clearly answer our legitimate and necessary questions to ascertain the truth. It was all subterfuge and obfuscation.
When we discovered that Lisa had been lying to us, we shared the fact with those on Carla’s blog that had ridiculed us and what we were saying, pointing out how Lisa was a liar, which proved our initial point about following in the footsteps of Calvin and his father, the devil. It is not good to company with false prophets, and the fruits, rather than words of profession and pious appearances, show who is what.
You were on the list of people we wrote to declaring these things, and rightly so, having been involved as one of the detractors who condemned us without substance. You should have a copy of that letter.
We stand ready to forgive you, Daniel, and anyone else among your acquaintances, if there is a legitimate confession of sin and desire to make things right, backed by action. However, you do not go nearly far enough in your apology to my most recent letter by saying you are sorry because you should have been willing to defend your advice rather than doing a “hit and run” with Ingrid. That is your pride speaking, nothing more, after being exposed as a coward. You need to go much further in seeking to hear the truth and in recognizing that your advice was offered ill-advisedly, even arrogantly, as if to say, “I know what I am talking about, so listen to me,” when you have actually known very little and have spoken in gross ignorance. I say this on your behalf, not ours, for we are not injured if you are only willing to defend what is indefensible – you are.
You say you will listen to the rest of the story, but what good will that do you when you do not recognize truth or conclusive evidence, even when handed to you on a golden platter? We have no confidence you will discern anything though we give you a whole banquet, unless there is repentance. Nevertheless, we will provide you with everything we have (we are preparing the files of all correspondence and will send to you when ready).
You cannot see deceit because you are in darkness, without the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great tragedy for you that, in your pride and unbelief, not only do you miss the evidence of deceit, but you miss the gospel and declaration of Truth that would lead you to repentance and Christ.
The point you completely overlooked in my last letter is how Lisa Nunley did write to me from the gmail account, and then posted the same words on her blog where she uses her hotmail account. If that is not a smoking gun, with finger prints, motive and means all wrapped together in one conclusive package, I don’t know what is. But you do not even acknowledge it. You are oblivious. How great is that darkness without the single eye, as Jesus said!
Lisa now tells you that someone was using her computer in her home, so are you changing your story to say that the gmail account used was hers after all? What happened to everything you had so neatly figured out pointing to your conclusion that the gmail account was a fake? Are you now suggesting that this alleged imposter was also intercepting Lisa’s emails and answering Ingrid’s replies right under Lisa’s nose, in her own house, over a period of days? How could that be when Lisa tells you she was getting the mail written in reply to the imposter’s letters and was replying herself? There were two such replies, both answered by Ingrid to this supposedly other person, followed by two more from this other person before the “real” Lisa ever noticed what was going on, according to what she told us when Ingrid notified her of her conversation with this “other person.” Something does not add up according to the story you now tell us, not that it did before.
And why are all the answers in the same voice, using the same words and coming from the same critical and bitter spirit, no matter what account they are from or when? Why do they match Lisa’s postings on Carla’s blog? Check it out for yourself. But you are prejudiced, besides not having the Spirit or a heart for Truth, so what will you be able to discern?
You are anything but impartial. You’ve got a horse in this race and it is your image, your spiritual integrity, as you see and think of it in your mind. It is, however, totally imaginary.
As Ingrid, the one you assume is inexperienced and therefore easily deluded, quoted to Lisa regarding her ongoing deceitful behavior:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes her mouth, and says, I have done no evil” (Proverbs 30:20 MKJV).
Why do you not see these things? You need to know the answer to this question. This leads us to your comments about the tares and discernment, in which you are mistaken on several counts. You say of the parable:
“The thrust here is that the immature wheat is identical to the tare …”
That is not the thrust at all. How did they know the enemy had sown tares if they could not tell the difference? Obviously the difference is discernible. The “thrust” is that there are both in the field, (“Beware…” we are told), and both claim legitimacy, but the servants of the Lord are quite able to tell, being granted by exercise of their senses to discern between good and evil.
If that were not so, then the Lord and His apostles spoke lies and nonsense. For example, Jesus said:
“Therefore by their fruits you shall know them” (Matthew 7:20 MKJV).
How do we recognize fruits except by discernment? The world does not know these things naturally, or they would not praise and love the false ones.
Will we, as Christ’s, therefore not know who is a believer, and who is not?
The apostle Paul wrote about being separate from idolaters and false believers, which would be impossible if one could not distinguish:
“Do not become unequally yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there for righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion is there for light with darkness? And what agreement is there for Christ with Belial? Or what part is there for a believer with an infidel? And what union is there for the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, just as God has said: I will dwell in them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Therefore Come out from the midst of them and be separated,’ says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 EMTV).
Yes, Paul also admitted there needed to be heresies among them, so that those who were approved might be made manifest. According to you, being made manifest is impossible. You are calling the Lord and His servants liars in order to serve your faulty interpretation that allows you and your friends to hide in the darkness.
The apostle John certainly exercised discernment and “named names,” exhorting believers to do likewise:
“I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves the preeminence over them, does not receive us. On account of this, if I come, I will call to mind his works which he does, slandering us with evil words. And not being content with that, he does not receive the brothers, and hinders those who desire to, casting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate the evil, but the good. He who does good is of God; he who does evil has not seen God. Demetrius has a good testimony with everyone, and of the truth itself. And we also testify, and you know that our testimony is true” (3 John 1:9-12 EMTV).
“He that does good is of God.” What you are telling us, essentially, is that you cannot tell the difference between good and evil. And you know what? You are absolutely right. You cannot. That is your first problem. Your second, and greater problem, is that you make spiritual judgments you are not qualified to make, depending on your intellectual, carnal knowledge. You violate your own verdict on spiritual discernment and prove yourself right that you cannot tell who is what. You end up calling good evil, and evil good, something that greatly displeases God and brings His judgment on you:
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink; that justify the wicked for a reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as the chaff is consumed in the flame, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust; because they have rejected the Law of the LORD of hosts, and contemned the word of the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 5:20-24 JPS).
Why in the world would God leave His people bereft of senses, as you insist? The very thought is mad. He gives us carnal senses to survive in the physical world, so it is critical that we have spiritual senses to thrive by His Spirit.
Just because you do not have His Spirit and are not part of His mystical Body that can not only see, but can speak and judge all things, does not mean that others are lacking:
“But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:15-16 MKJV).
Paul was not out of line to speak in this manner, because clearly the saints of God did exercise this judgment, as instructed to by the Lord:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matthew 7:15 KJV).
In other words, beware of tares that appear in the guise of wheat. We know the difference, according to the commandment of the Lord.
You speak to us as if we are presumptuous to actually have eyes and ears in our heads, by which we see and hear things that allow us to recognize the difference between a sheep and a poisonous snake, like with Servetus and Calvin:
“…but I marvel in morbid concern that you imagine yourself capable of such judgment when God will not trust even the angels of heaven with such a profound task.”
How do you think we will be able to judge angels except we have our senses developed to discern good and evil, as the author of Hebrews writes? Do you think Paul the apostle, or other apostles, were not capable of discernment? How can shepherds keep the sheep unless they can recognize the dangers of false brethren and can deal with such matters decisively?
“And that because of the false brothers let in secretly, who came searching out our free condition which we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might make servants of us; To whom we gave way not even for an hour; so that the true words of the good news might still be with you” (Galatians 2:4-5 BBE).
Paul said that those who were least in the church should be judging matters in things of this life (1 Corinthians 6:4-5 MKJV), so obviously he expected more of those that were mature in Christ. He expected them to judge spiritual matters. A spiritual life without spiritual discernment is not possible.
“In Christ” are the key words and reality that are lacking in your life and understanding, Dan. We are in Christ, and He is in us. How can we not walk in His understanding? What is the meaning of spiritual life and walking in the light if you are still in darkness? Obviously you are greatly lacking, regardless of your works and what you consider to be a very life-changing experience. We see intellectual, religious works with change of habits, but no spiritual life or discernment.
Here is how John said we know who is of God and who is not. It is very simple:
“We are of God. He that knows God hears us; he that is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 EMTV).
If you call us arrogant for declaring we know whether one is a believer or not by whether they hear us or not, you are also saying the same of our brother John, and we know and agree that John spoke by the Holy Spirit, don’t we? But let me turn this around on you, because you are claiming to be of God. Why are you not experiencing the reality and discernment of this saying with those to whom you speak?
Your objection about us exalting ourselves above the angels and the incarnation of God is therefore moot, because we are certainly not doing anything Christ did not do. He said we would do the same works that He did, and even greater ones, because He went to the Father. You don’t believe He has gone to the Father and returned to live in His people, fulfilling His promises and performing the works of God in us. You are no different than the Pharisees who also were knowledgeable in the Scriptures but would not come to Him to have life.
We are not exalting ourselves above the Lord, Dan; that is what you are doing by not acknowledging Him in His brethren:
“The one hearing you hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me; he who rejects you also rejects Him Who sent Me” (Luke 10:16 MKJV).
I need to further take you to task on some things you say in your reply to me. You are really quite irresponsible with your mouth, and that will not do at all before the Lord, Whom you profess to love and believe in vain. Over and over again, with every breath you take and word you speak, you demonstrate that you have taken His Name in vain. If you had a genuine conversion and love of Christ, we will know by how much you listen and amend your ways, and not by what you claim to have experienced.
You condemn us for judging, while praising yourself in the following terms:
“I don’t consider myself your judge, though I make it no secret that I regard your mystical experiences with suspicion. It is not impiety or unbelief that causes someone to act like a Berean – but the love of the Lord and a delight in truth. I don’t deny that God can speak to us in visions and/or dreams, what I deny is that I am (or anyone else is) under obligation to accept as valid every claim that comes through the door. What good is discernment if we are to set it aside because someone says they had a vision?”
We exercise discernment, which you condemn, and now you ask what good is it to set discernment aside. You judge us, while denying you do so. You are the consummate hypocrite. Furthermore, you praise yourself as delighting in truth and acting like a Berean, but you are acting more like those of Thessalonica, because the Bereans “received the Word with all readiness of mind” (Acts 17:11 KJV). You have done anything but that, sitting in judgment and scoffing at the Word and gospel we are sent to preach in Jesus Christ, even from the very beginning, as evidenced by your remark on Carla’s blog.
You ask us if Lisa is truly proven to be deceitful and a liar, if we “have… really handled this in a way that honors Christ?”
You are in no position to judge how we have handled this, being a dupe and enabler of wicked persons, in need of repentance yourself. You have no idea what honoring Christ is or looks like. In fact, you despise it. You have nothing whatsoever to do with Him.
You readily show that you have stacked the hand against us by your own statements, such as:
“If there is some document linking me to this mess, I should like a link to it so that I may (at the very least) understand how it is that you involved me in this whole thing.”
You imply and now say it is our fault for creating “this mess,” which is not remotely true or fair to say. Do you think we have nothing better to do than to pursue Lisa Nunley as though we must prove her a liar? That is nuts and you are wicked for even considering such a thing. We have provided carefully chosen words with full disclosure of all correspondence at significant cost of our time to those who despise these things, not to create a mess, but to honor the Truth, the very thing you question us about and to which you are blind.
You said you would not pass on my letter to Lisa because she regards it as “unwelcome harassment.” If she were interested in truth, don’t you think she would welcome the opportunity to answer the things we asked, which she has never publicly done, though she condemns us publicly? You don’t even consider such things, which begs the question of how impartial and capable you are of discerning anything. I have already said you are blind and incapable.
So instead of providing her with evidence by which you can check her facts, you call her and allow her to spin her story for you, which you tell us fits the facts like a “tailored suit.” Of course it does, when she gets to make up the body and the facts to fit it. You are truly a fool, Daniel, particularly because you are wise in your own sight.
You say that when you first believed you became “utterly the property of Christ,” yet soon thereafter you were in sin. One who is utterly God’s does not go back to sin, unless sin is greater than God. You were not His then, and you are not now. Your fruits tell us so.
Here is the blog that started this conversation, in which we included you when we replied to Carla.
Victor’s reply to Dan:
Dan, Victor Hafichuk here,
We are not here to give you our opinions. We declare in Christ, as His disciples ought, and not as multitudes of charlatans posing as believers do. We are not entitled to opinion, as is so commonly believed among unbelievers.
You are full of opinion and proud of it, thinking it admirable, but you have no idea, and no comprehension of earthly things, how much less the Heavenly. We have tried to reason with you on the matter of Lisa, giving you two testimonies, earthly and Heavenly, but you can receive nothing!
Concerning the parable of the wheat and tares, you write: “Note that we are not at liberty to impose our own subjective interpretation onto what Christ has plainly said here.”
By nature and knowledge, we note. What about following your own vain counsel, Dan? How did the servants know there were tares sown before they matured unless they were recognizable? How often must you display your ignorance and contradiction and be proven wrong again and again before you admit your intellectual and spiritual bankruptcy in all matters? Will you not admit you are a fool, Dan? Only then can you begin to be delivered of the sorry state you are in. Indeed, Cervantes wrote of you.
Paul has discussed this matter of judgment, righteous and unrighteous, and has addressed your darkness concerning it, though when we write and rebuke your foolishness, you do not acknowledge any correction or indicate any enlightenment. We can only conclude that we must wait for the Word of God to do Its work, and when done, your pride will be broken. Then you will be able to confess the truth in humility.
You accuse us of exalting ourselves. This is not true, but you exalt yourself over the Lord, because when we speak from and in Him for His sake and for the sakes of all to whom we speak, you speak from and for yourself, and deem yourself wiser. Yet do we not prove, again and again, by both Scripture and reason, your wisdom to be foolishness?
And why do you not read and acknowledge what we say? Why do you continue to repeat your same nonsense, though we have addressed it in no uncertain terms, more than once or twice in some cases? Why can you not reason? It is because you have never known the Light of men. You are in darkness. Your conversion is a synthetic one.
You write, “You have included me in this whole thing via unsolicited emails, that it seemed to me from my uninformed perspective…”
If you are uninformed, then you ought to shut your mouth and get informed before you open it, don’t you think? Is it not a fool that speaks before he hears?
“Answering before listening is both stupid and rude” (Proverbs 18:13 MSG).
Constantly, at every turn, with nearly every word, you show yourself an unregenerate fool. That would not be nearly so bad if you did not profess to be a brother in Christ. Not being a brother, therefore the greater shame and folly, taking His Name in vain. We pre-empt your possible silly notion that we are guilty before God of calling a brother a fool.
You ask, “Have you really handled this in a way that honors Christ?”
You mean the christ you have formed in your own image? Definitely not. What do you have to do with the Real Christ, but serve as His enemy with your vain words and vile, artificial and beastly “Christlikeness”?
You address us, “you and your ilk.” While you apologize to us at the start, you hypocritically use what is commonly known as a derogatory term on us. So much for the value of your apology. You apologized to display your humility and righteousness, your “Christlikeness,” did you not, Dan? Yes. No greater condemnation came from the Lord’s lips than that which He had for such as you. But you will march on in the vanity of your own imaginations, won’t you!
I could hardly believe what I was reading, but given what I had already red of your letter helped my credulity. Amazingly, of yourself you vomit in self praise, “…but being an honest fellow, and certainly willing to follow the truth wherever it may lead…”
“Most men will proclaim each his own goodness, but a faithful man who can find?” (Proverbs 20:6 MKJV)
“Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, ‘That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged’” (Romans 3:4 MKJV).
There is not an honest bone in you, Dan; you are a liar and egotistical blowhard. Let me show you about your conversion experiences:
You write of your first one, which you assume was genuine: “I held nothing back – he could have my life, and my obedience for ever and ever, in less than a moment the man who was once there, once a rebel, once an enemy, was now utterly the property of Christ.”
One, your expression is one of pure self-righteousness – “I held nothing back,” “he could have my life, and my obedience forever and ever,” “once a rebel, once an enemy, was now utterly the property of Christ.”
Since when were you not His property, to do with as it pleased Him? All things are His and always were, both good and evil. What makes you think you could have held anything back? Your life? Said who, or what? Free will? As a slave of sin? Hardly, don’t you think?
Yes, you will undoubtedly come forth with your diabolical Calvinist doctrine, which, by Scripture and godly reason, we, as true ministers of Jesus Christ, can and will trash with ease, not by intellectual power or by your “grace,” but by His grace. Your doctrine will serve you as much good as it has till now, which puts you in the red, full of pride and hot air, just like the murderer, Calvin.
You write on: “Notwithstanding – I was an immature babe, and my walk with the Lord had only just begun. Sin found me again, and I was deceived into believing that God no longer loved me, wanted me, or would ever accept me again – and for years, though I loved the Lord and could never fully deny Him, yet I lived in ignorance and fear.”
Dan, I am calling you a fool for good and not for evil. Listen to me – I am compelled to speak. Reason! Why can’t you reason? If you, being evil, would take great pains to care for your newborn child, a helpless babe, how much more would the Heavenly parents take care!
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him?” (Matthew 7:11 MKJV)
Even beasts, which God has created, will give their lives to protect their newborn! Reason! Read about a genuine conversion in Christ: Victor Hafichuk. Why haven’t you done so, or learned anything if you have? Because you think you are the wise one and we are the fools, when you are a fool.
I guarantee you that when God gives birth, He follows through. Your conversion was spurious. And because you still do not know that, therefore it remains that your “final” one was also spurious. Your whole experience to this very hour is a counterfeit work of men. You chalk up the failure to being an immature babe in Christ! That is like saying babies die because they are babies, or are separated from their parents because they are babies.
And you say you loved the Lord. How does the Lord qualify true love? Here it is:
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him” (John 14:21 MKJV).
So you say you loved Him? It is a lie, but not an ordinary lie; it is a deceptive one because you speak of another love, so there may have been a love. Read: The False Religious Love that Hates (Rejects) God, and while you are at it, The False and Misleading Gospel of “Accepting” Jesus Christ.
You blaspheme with nearly every word and phrase. You instill faith in others toward God like dead food tasters inspire their successors. You serve to scatter and not to gather. You discredit His power and faithfulness to the full with such claptrap.
And why do people like your wife and brother listen to you (assuming they do, as you claim)? They see a change in your life, you say? Convicts, drug addicts and pushers have come clean of vices when converted to Islam. I know a native in Canada who was a drunken deadbeat, who, after a beating in prison, decided to change his life, and he did, against the odds. Today, he is wealthy, famous, an accomplished artist, and helps the poor on the street. He does not confess Christ.
So lives can be cleaned up, at least in such measure, without profession of faith in Christ. Therefore, some of which you may use as proof that Christ has redeemed you is not necessarily proof. On the contrary, your words, concepts, expressions and notions are diabolical, able to deceive and confound the simple. In your spirituality, you, Dan, are a foolish, foolish man who likes to think he is learned and holy, yet meek and lowly. Your costume does not disguise the reality. We are not deceived. How much less is God!
If you did experience anything of value at the time of your dream, it has disappeared because your words clearly tell us you do not now have the reality of the Lord Jesus Christ. What you have is a hideous misrepresentation, and because I say so, you will say the same of me, hating to hear the unbearable truth about yourself. If you find that your conversion after your dream is compatible with your present, then you are dead in your sins, and not only so, you are in the strong delusion, which God said He would send to those who choose to believe a lie, not having love of truth. You definitely do not have love of truth now. Yet, one day, that will change.
You write: “I don’t consider myself your judge, though I make it no secret that I regard your mystical experiences with suspicion.”
You have certainly judged, without qualifications to do so, after the appearance, even rejecting any and all existing evidence. You do indeed consider yourself our judge; you lie. The reason you do not receive our “mystical experiences” is as Jesus and John declared:
“He who is of God hears God’s Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God” (John 8:47 MKJV).
“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
You write: “It is not impiety or unbelief that causes someone to act like a Berean – but the love of the Lord and a delight in truth.”
The Bereans first believed, then searched the Scriptures. You have it backwards, yet another of so many indications that you do not have any faith in Christ.
“ And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so” (Acts 17:11 MKJV).
You love yourself, Dan, but you do not love the truth. You hate Him. Therefore, you are not as you sign off, “Your in Christ,” not in the least.
Dan’s reply to Victor:
After reading your email I can only express my deep regret that the Christ you worship is by no means the Christ of scripture. I hope and pray that you are released from this confusion and that the damage you do to those around you can be reversed. I trust the Lord will allow this if you repent.
Consider this a formal notice: Do not email me any more.
Replying to this email will be considered a willful breach of that request.
God have mercy on your soul.
Daniel van de Laar.
Click HERE to read the rest of our conversation with Jen Elslager.
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