Hi Paul-
I just ran across your website and read the article you wrote about
Kyle Lake. Actually, I only read as much as had the time and stomach
for. I’d like to engage you a little on the issue of God’s
will, but I’d first like to ask if we could do so on a blog
or some other public forum. I’ve posted a pretty scathing response
to your article on my blog (url below). I’m inviting you to
respond if you like.
-ryan
A very close friend of mine just lost a very close friend of his -
a young man in the prime of his life and ministry who was reaching
people with the good news of God’s grace. It’s really hard
to deal with and it reminds me of the story of Kyle Lake - the young
Waco pastor who was electrocuted in his baptistry two years ago.
In discussing these events, another friend of mine sent me a link
to a website called “The Path of Truth” which included
an article about Kyle Lake that I’ve quoted below. I really don’t
know why I’m taking the time to refute this guy. Heaven knows
I’d have my hands full if I decided to debate every quack that
has a website. But I guess just because of what my friend is going
through, this one really got me hot under the theological collar.
The guy’s name is Paul Cohen and his basic assertion is that
if you’re walking in the fear of the Lord, then nothing bad will
ever happen to you. It’s clearly a well-constructed argument
with plenty of scripture, church history and gray matter to back it
up. Below is a quote from a pretty long article on his site and then
a short rant from me. :)
“What Jesus said, and what He is saying
for those with ears to hear, is that God is over all events, and
if you are walking in
the fear, or reverence, of Him, you can trust Him entirely. Indeed,
it is your duty to entrust yourself to Him. If however, you are walking
in the fear of man, which is denying Christ before men, then Christ
will also deny you before the Father in Heaven. Then you will be subject
to the sudden and violent endings to life in this realm that are your
inheritance from ‘the Fall’”
Gosh, how this makes me crazy! Let us count the ways...
First, he mishandles scripture. The verse he quotes in this article
(Mtt. 10:29) doesn’t say that the Lord causes the fall of every
sparrow that falls to the ground. It says no sparrow falls to the ground
apart from the will of the Lord. Thinking people understand the distinction.
Second, I guess what Cohen is saying is that Kyle Lake - a pastor,
whose career and passion was declaring the truth and teaching the word
of God - was denying Christ before men. I guess that’s what he
was doing in the baptistry that day - denying Christ. I guess that’s
how people’s lives were touched by his ministry of denying Christ.
I guess that’s why he stood in a pulpit and spoke publicly and
led a church - because it was a good way to deny Christ.
According to Cohen (and I really don’t even have to extend his
logic to this conclusion; he actually asserts this himself), if we
are walking in fear and reverence for God, then nothing bad will happen
to us - least of all death! I can think of quite a few Christian leaders
who would disagree with that position. The short list would include
Joseph, Daniel, Job, Jesus, Paul, Peter, Polycarp, Bonhoeffer, Cassie
Bernall, and a brother from Gaza named Rami who was kidnapped and killed
Saturday night because of his faith. According to Cohen, these people
were killed because the Son had denied them to the Father. Maybe I
should find Cohen’s address, vandalize his house, and then stand
in the front yard and declare, “Sorry, Paul. Guess you weren’t
walking in the fear of the Lord.”
But even if his assertion weren’t patently wrong, it would still
miss the point. That is that God doesn’t save us from bad things
- including death. He never promised to. In fact, he promised just
the opposite. (“In this world, you will have trouble.”)
If Paul Cohen is trusting Jesus to save him from death or accidents
or difficult circumstances, I’m afraid he’s in for disappointment.
As for me, I’m not trusting God to keep hardship from coming
my way. In fact, I’m trusting him to send hardship in my life
so that I can know him more. Like Paul said, “I want to know
Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing
in his sufferings.”
There’s plenty more fuzzy-headed stuff on “The Path of
Truth” to rant about, but I’ll quit for now. Partly because
I want this post to be about upholding the truth and correcting it
in a brother and - to be honest - I’m getting way too much pleasure
out of bashing this guy.
Anyway, I’ve emailed the guy and invited him to discuss his
position on this blog (his website doesn’t allow for feedback/comments).
We’ll see...
All comments, theirs and ours:
bob said...
{ears hot and red}
{sigh}
{pray for the Lord to calm me}
post...
Paul sure seems to be zealous for God. That’s good. That’s
real good. We need more of that. But I’m afraid I can’t
separate the zealousness from the stupidity. That means any great intention
on Paul’s part is lost...at least on me.
Paul begins his very post by saying that he never knew Kyle Lake.
Then he proceeds to assert that Kyle “based his life” on
a lie from hell. That’s funny. Usually you need to know someone
to be able to make such a claim. Since I don’t know anywhere
that Kyle put ink to paper to claim such a statement I’m pretty
sure Paul doesn’t know either.
So, Paul, you’ve lost all credibility with me by paragraph two!
Looks like the only lie from hell on Paul’s link is Paul’s
public declaration that Kyle “based his life” on any one
single statement.
Like Paul, I also never knew Kyle but I did read his books. By keeping
Kyle’s writing IN context with the entirety of his writings I’m
pretty sure that he would never have based his life on a lie from hell.
Rather, from everything I’ve read of Kyle’s I’m pretty
sure he would be first in line to bow at the foot of Christ and assign
all glory and majesty to the One who created life. I’m pretty
sure he’d be quick to recognize that God is in control of everything
at all times. I’m pretty sure that Kyle would be quick to repent
of his sins (which Paul claims Kyle must not have done since Kyle was “accidentally” killed).
I’m pretty sure that Kyle intended no disrespect or intent to
test God when he delivered his sermon entitled “Surpise me, God!”.
Instead, I’m pretty sure Kyle looked forward in expectation and
excitement to what God can and would do...not as a challenge but in
anticipation of God’s good pleasing and perfect will.
Like I said, I never knew Kyle and I don’t know Paul. But there’s
one more thing of which I’m pretty sure. I’m pretty sure
that Paul better never get too close to me because I might try to kick
him in his spiritual crotch but then “accidentally” miss
and hit him in his physical crotch!
Friday, October 26, 2007
________________________________________
ryan said...
Genius.
Um...Bob...where exactly is one’s “spiritual crotch”?
Friday, October 26, 2007
________________________________________
Paul Cohen said...
Ryan,
A debate is fine by us, even desirable, but first you must read the
materials, and then accurately quote them to prove your assertions.
You have apparently done neither. You are not correct in what I have
said, only stating what you think or wish I had. Therefore, you are
not arguing with me, but with the emotional and erroneous conclusions
you have formed by your carnal thinking and being. You are fighting
yourself.
For example, I never said, “If you’re walking in the fear
of the Lord, then nothing bad will ever happen to you.” Those
are your words. What I did say was as quoted, that if you walk with
the Lord you can know and be fully assured that all things are in His
hands and nothing can happen to you except He approves and desires
it. Isn’t that what Jesus said of the “very bad” thing
that happened to Him?
“Then Pilate said to Him, Do You not speak to me? Do You not
know that I have authority to crucify You, and I have authority to
release You? Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me
unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered
Me to you has the greater sin” (John 19:10-11 MKJV).
Of course, we, those who believe, know this was not a very bad thing
after all, but the very best thing that has ever happened, because
by His sacrifice, Christ was glorified and exalted at the right hand
of God, putting away our sins and the sins of the world, and through
His resurrection He has brought us eternal life, which is total victory
over this world and the devil. So what is good and what is bad? Do
bad things happen to those who believe? The Scriptures give a fuller,
more truthful account:
“And we know that all things work together for good to those
who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Romans
8:28 MKJV).
Job, called a righteous man by God, had many horrific things happen
to him, and within one day his world was turned on its head. God Himself
brought up the matter of Job to the devil and sent him to do these
things. Did it work out for good? Immeasurably so. It is all there
in the book for you to read and confirm, if you question it. Job was
given as an extreme physical example of what every saint of God can
expect to have happen in his or her world:
“In the same way, concluded Jesus, none of you can be My disciple
unless you give up everything you have” (Luke 14:33 GNB).
And:
“For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every
son whom He receives” (Hebrews 12:6 MKJV).
What God teaches in the Scriptures is that everything happens with
purpose, initiated and orchestrated by Him, to ultimately bring about
good. Kyle Lake denied this (I have extensively quoted his words),
and taught others to believe in chance and vanity rather than the Almighty
Lord God, even selling them his teachings, contrary to the Word of
God. He did all of this because he was walking according to the spirit
of this world, the liar. He suffered accordingly. That too is working
out for good, as has been necessary, not only for Kyle, but for others,
such as you, for the judgment that will put away the presumptuous and
light spirit in which you are all walking, taking the Name of the Lord
in vain and bringing destruction and desolation on your heads.
As I quoted in the writing you denounce, the Lord told everyone that
unless they repented, they too would perish as those who died in the
incidents of the tower of Siloam and Herod’s sacrifice. They
would, so to speak, be electrocuted in their baptisteries. Obviously
Lake had not repented, not according to Paul Cohen, but according to
the Word of God, Jesus Christ. Anyone who says differently has an argument
with Him and is defying His sovereignty as Lord God Almighty.
Peter and Paul did not die in “accidents” as unrepentant
fools. They were martyred for their witness to Christ, killed by those
incensed at their testimony, just as you and Bob express the desire
to do me harm because of my testimony of Christ. Do you fellows really
believe your inclinations and attitudes are of Christ? Yes, you do,
as He said you would:
“They will excommunicate you; but a time is coming when everyone
who kills you will think that he is offering God a service” (John
16:2 EMTV).
The blood of the martyrs still testifies of Christ, because it is
His blood. Stephen gave witness of Christ, and saw Him at the right
hand of God, forgiving his murderers, among them the future apostle
Paul. His testimony was not in vain. A very great thing happened that
day.
What happened when Kyle Lake died was a testimony to the lethalness
of false religion. That is to what Lake gave testimony, not Christ
(though he did it in Christ’s Name), and it killed him. It was
a great wake up call to everyone to beware of playing games with God
(see Victor’s letter to Esau at What
Happened to Kyle Lake).
If you do not repent, you will all likewise perish, as with your friend’s
friend “in ministry,” who died not as a martyr for God’s
glory, but as a mongrel to man’s shame.
You are very ignorant, Ryan, and I say that as a fact, not as unsubstantiated
slander as you do with us. You think that because someone gets up in
a church and says things about God and quotes the words of Jesus it
must be wholesome and godly. I quote:
“Second, I guess what Cohen is saying
is that Kyle Lake - a pastor, whose career and passion was declaring
the truth and teaching
the word of God - was denying Christ before men. I guess that’s
what he was doing in the baptistry that day - denying Christ. I guess
that’s how people’s lives were touched by his ministry
of denying Christ. I guess that’s why he stood in a pulpit and
spoke publicly and led a church - because it was a good way to deny
Christ.”
Have you not heard that Satan comes as an angel of light (2 Corinthians
11:4)? Have you not heard that God sends men this strong delusion to
weed out those that have not received a love of the truth? Have you
not heard that this deceivableness causes them to perish (2 Thessalonians
2)? Have you not heard that there must be heresies among the saints,
so that those that are approved might be made manifest (1 Corinthians
11:19)? Have you not heard the many words of the Lord that He spoke
against the religious hypocrites of His day? Have you not heard His
reference to the words of Isaiah, “This people honors Me with
their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Mark 7:6 MKJV)?
Have you not heard the testimony of the Word of God, that the people
in the wilderness sacrificed to the Lord in the name of their gods,
and suffered because of this (Acts 7:42-43)? Have you not seen the
great confusion and contradiction of the many religious sects and groups
that claim to be representing Christ? Are you telling us you accept
any and all that name the Name of Christ?
Lake, as we have shown, was not declaring the Truth or teaching the
Word of God, as you say. He preached “another Jesus.”
And by your stance you do indeed sanction all religious, the very
same that have been the known murderers and plunderers of mankind (the
Catholic Church, Church of England, Lutheran Church, etc.). That is
no wonder, as you and Bob exhibit the same vicious spirit, as I have
already pointed out. You are all one:
“He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather
with Me scatters” (Matthew 12:30 EMTV).
Are we “quacks,” or are you in false religion, the whore,
to which the true worship of God is deemed “quackery”?
Read The True Marks
of a Cult and you tell us who God says is in error and is following men, the
paths of the destroyer.
You may publish this on your blog, or any other. We will certainly
publish it on our site, in the Kyle Lake section.
Serving the Lord Jesus Christ, with Whom I thankfully identify by
His grace, Who always suffers the contradiction of sinners and prevails
in His judgment,
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
Ryan, Victor here,
We are thankful for this opportunity the Lord has granted us.
You speak of having a “theological collar.” That is your
problem. You serve carnal concepts of Christ, laboring under men’s
collars and “get hot” rather than taking upon yourself
Christ’s yoke, which is easy, and which alone gives rest and
peace (Matthew 11:28-29). Carnal concepts are at enmity with the One
you presume to serve (Romans 8:6-8). You do not have the peace of Christ
that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7). You like to think
you are somebody, and so you glory in yourself rather than in the Lord
(1 Corinthians 1:31). Speaking of such as you:
“Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures
nor the power of God” (Matthew 22:29 MKJV).
(I do not expect you to access the Scripture references I include
here – only those with a thirst for truth and hunger for righteousness
will do so; it is for their sakes that I include them.)
You say, “I’m trusting him [God] to
send hardship in my life so that I can know him more.”
You have spoken and so will it be, even as it was with Kyle Lake.
You are also in for a surprise, as was he. What you receive will not
be the sufferings the apostle Paul spoke of or received for righteousness’ sake,
but you will receive the suffering for unrighteousness’ sake – very
different (one brings life, the other death):
“For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation,
not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death” (2
Corinthians 7:10 MKJV).
Nevertheless, those things you suffer will ultimately stop your mouth
and put away your self-confessed ranting, which is defined as “pompous
or pretentious, declamatory, ostentatiously lofty in style [and spirit].” And
that is good.
We constantly marvel at the vicious spirits that rant in the Lord’s
Name at our words because we speak the truth that offends those who
choose to believe lies and to walk in them. However, we are thankful
for every opportunity to still the mouths of blasphemers and showoffs
like you, who have confidence in the flesh (Philippians 3:3-4) and
love the praise of men more than God’s praise (John 12:43). God
sees through your flatteries and self-appointed stances as “defenders
of the faith,” and He is not impressed.
We are at His throne in Him and see as He sees, and we unapologetically
(you will say “arrogantly”) declare to you what He speaks.
Post it all, Ryan, as you have proposed. Let all see your nakedness,
if you will; it will be good for you (the proud must fall – Proverbs
16:18) and good for all (“that all may fear” – Acts
5:11). We certainly will be posting it (in that way, our site certainly
does “allow for feedback/comments,” as anyone can easily
see) – every word, yours and ours, Lord willing, and perhaps
also those of your friends, who are foolish enough to weigh in with
your ignorance, as though they know anything.
But would it not be good if you acknowledged ignorance and irresponsibility,
and repented of ranting and false accusation of Christ’s brethren
(Revelation 12:10)? Would you not prefer that God called you “Repentant
Ryan,” rather than your accurately calling yourself “Ranting
Ryan”?
Knowing Jesus Christ, Lord of all, as He is, and not as the proud
and wicked vainly make Him out to be, convincing the ungodly, according
to the Scriptures (Jude 1:14-15),
Victor Hafichuk
www.thepathoftruth.com
Sunday, October 28, 2007
________________________________________
Paul Cohen said...
I could not get a hyperlink into our comments, nor would
the entire link wrap around or copy, so if anyone wishes to be informed
of the full story, the two
articles I cite in my letter are located in the “Falsehood Exposed” section
of “The Path of Truth” website. If you have trouble finding
these, contact me and I will email you the hyperlinks. [We have now
corrected this problem in the posting above.]
Sunday, October 28, 2007
________________________________________
bob said...
Paul and Victor,
I really don’t even know where to begin. I’m not even
sure that I want to. Maybe it’s because I am a mongrel...or maybe
it’s because you guys like to take words and scripture and then
apply your interpretation as though you have written it yourself. Guys
like you think you are gods quoting scripture and then errantly spouting
off as though you are spokesmen of the One True God.
Now, Victor, you brought up repentance. I’m all about repentance
so I want to start there. While I was angered because of your flippant
judgment on Kyle I realize that in no way does that give me the excuse
to lose my cool and threaten to “harm” you. For the record,
I actually never intended to commit such an action if the tone of jest
was missed. However, I apologize for making such a statement on the
fly without really knowing either of you. Furthermore, I also recognize
that I am not God and therefore don’t get to judge your eternal
destiny (unlike you have of me). As such, I will lay my bitterness
at the feet of my Lord and ask forgiveness prior to continuing this
post…
Sunday, October 28, 2007
________________________________________
bob said...
So, guys, let’s get back to this for a bit.
I think there are a few things that need to be said.
1. I guess it’s okay to call people names and to lose your self
control. I guess you feel like the best way to make your point is to
call us “mongrels” and “fools.” I guess you
do that because you are really hoping to entice us to fall into the
trap of doing the same. I can’t say that it’s not tempting,
but I am going to try to avoid stooping to your level and it may benefit
you to check scripture regarding the loss of self control (and please
don’t try to compare yourselves to Christ at the changing tables – your
name calling is hardly righteous). Yet, this brings me to another thing.
2. While we’re on the subject of tagging people with descriptions
(and seeing as how you guys have cornered the market on deciding the
eternal destiny of people - people you’ve never met), I wonder
if Christ were here who he’d call the “brood of vipers.” You
guys are the most judgmental, self-righteous, modern day pharisaical
legalists of which I am aware. When you say things like “we,
those who believe” you clearly indicate that you are believing
but that Ryan and I are UNbelieving. You have judged my heart. I’m
guessing, Victor, that’s because you “see as He sees.” Oh
WOW! Now you claim to have the mind of God! Yet, you are but just a
man and you know nothing about me. Nothing. I’ve tipped my hand
to you only that you know I struggle with anger. That’s all.
As far as I know Christ is the only One who will judge me for my anger
or otherwise. Good luck finding scripture to refute that (Oh, yes,
I’m sure that you’ll point to Paul driving out demons and
with delusion think that you are doing the same). So, thanks for your
input, but you’re way off base and quite past the point of flirting
with heresy yourself in that way.
3. Which brings me to the third point…that apparently I have
to reiterate. You both conveniently glossed over what I had written
about you not knowing Kyle Lake. You don’t know Kyle any better
than you know me. Paul, you said it yourself. Then you said, and I
quote,
“What God teaches in the Scriptures is
that everything happens with purpose, initiated and orchestrated
by Him, to ultimately bring
about
good. Kyle Lake denied this…”.
No he didn’t! Read his writings (you will have to since you never
took the time to know him)!!! You haven’t extensively done anything
pertaining to Kyle except wrongly condemn a follower of Christ that
impacted the lives of many for the positive. Kyle says,
“I believe tragedy, chaos, and disease
are the natural consequences of the fall when humankind was given
free choice.”
Surely you guys don’t debate this point. Surely you understand
that before the fall everything was as God intended it to be. Surely
you understand that the fall brought tragedy, chaos, and disease into
the world. See Genesis 1 if you need more detail, but from your prior
record of scripture reference I’m guessing you don’t need
to look this up. Kyle goes on,
“Yet, no matter who you are or where your
theology stands, all people who strive to thoughtfully deal with
God and life are forced
to live within the tension of God’s providence and a chaotic
world. Still, no matter where you stand on the issue, Romans 8:28 still
proves to be a redemptive passage:…”.
Wow! What a heretical declaration! A “redemptive passage”!
Yes, it seems Kyle is denying Christ here and claiming to be a god
himself. No! Since you guys aren’t able to discern sarcasm or
joking, let me tell you what I’m truly saying. Kyle is NOT speaking
heresy here. How could a thinking person even arrive at this? Kyle
is not being dogmatic. He never said his interpretation of scripture
is right…or wrong. Kyle is not making any statements that elevate
him above God. Kyle isn’t denying Christ in any shape or form.
He is simply saying that it seems the fall of man is the cause of the
hardship, destruction, and carnage we see in the world to this day.
He NEVER says God is not in control, nor does he allude to this. Kyle
would absolutely proclaim God to be in control of EVERYTHING. If you
read his writings then you would know this. Although, since the ability
to judge the hearts of man seems to be your forte, you probably wouldn’t
need to do any investigation (oh yeah, beware the sarcasm in this last
sentence). Kyle doesn’t deny or contradict scripture…he
only contradicts the unforgiving interpretation of self-righteous vipers.
4. Speaking of scripture, I honestly do appreciate your use of scripture
(although it’s much more helpful when it actually pertains to
the point you are trying to make). Seriously (no sarcasm here), it’s
refreshing to see people base their arguments on scripture. I think
that is admirable. However, when you spin and turn and use scripture
out of context you can make it say just about anything. I don’t
think Kyle ever intended to intentionally do this and for the record
I don’t think that he ever did this (oh yes, I’m sure that
you’ve already judged me for saying that).
5. Lastly, your purpose for judging and lambasting Kyle, Ryan, and
myself is clearly intended for the glorification of self and not
the glory of the Lord. You seek you prove how righteous YOU are,
and how
judgmental YOU can be. You don’t seek to bring about the glory
of God. I’ve had to stop and pray many times that this post would
be about upholding truth rather than me “showing you up.” When
I read what you guys write I feel the exclusivity that you guys intend
to portray on the grace of God. I’m convinced you don’t
even want me or any other person to ever repent so that you can “keep
the faith” for yourself. The diction, tone, and methods of delivery
that you guys employ are ones which seek to demonstrate the “knowledge” that
you have amassed, not the TRUTH or LOVE of Christ. Men who seek to
meekly rebuke and instruct operate in a much different way than you
guys operate. Christ always sought to deliver His message in love.
Obviously you gave no thought to what Kyle’s wife would think
were she to waywardly land on your “Path of Destruction” site.
You clearly don’t care what an unbeliever would think were they
to land on your site. They would never understand why you, who claim
to be believing, would publicly trash the work of another believer.
Many people knew Kyle and can attest to his heart (even though you
guys seem to have the market of knowing hearts cornered). Thankfully,
the Holy Spirit operates in a much more efficient way, which always
points to Christ and never to man…or even self. If you guys really
believed that Kyle’s teaching was blatantly wrong and wanted
to clarify then you would have done so in a much different manner.
You would have gone to Kyle in private or even entered into a more
constructive manner of refute. You operate under the guise of righteousness,
but everything that I read from you betrays you for your hearts full
of hate, bitterness, and thirst for self. I will pray for you guys…though
I’m sure you’ll attest that I need not spend the energy.
Don’t bother. I’m committing to praying you guys because:
6. If you guys spent as much time and effort genuinely spreading
the gospel and seeking lost souls as you do tearing down and bringing
destruction
to the brothers of Christ then this world would be a different
place. Unfortunately you’ll site my insolence and deftness and parade
around like your banter with me is such work. It is not. It is not.
It is not. I will pray for you guys. I commit to this. Not for my own
glory, but for the Lord’s. I will pray that the Holy Spirit pierces
your hearts. If you are true believers then this will happen. If not,
you’ll just refute everything that I have written here, distort
scripture to help you do so, and continue the destruction that we see
in the world that has been given to Satan. Thankfully, no matter what
you guys decide, Christ wins. That’s because “[I] know
that all things work together for good for those who love God, who
are called according to His purpose” – Hebrews 8:28.
Sunday, October 28, 2007
________________________________________
Nancy said...
Forgive me for not reading all the commentary, but I have a problem
with this quote, which I copied out of Paul’s comment.
“if you walk with the Lord you can know
and be fully assured that all things are in His hands and nothing
can happen to you except
He approves and
desires
it.”
So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and approved
of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was “walking with the Lord?” Or
did the Lord desire those specific murders? Does “walking with the Lord” make
us immune to the free will and sinful nature of all other human beings?
And about accidental death...
Words of Jesus, “unless you repent, you too will perish.” Luke
13:5
Paul Cohen’s interpretation: all accidental death is caused by
a lack of repentance. If the 18 in Luke chapter 13 died accidentally,
it must be so of all in history.
Wow Paul, what a stretch. Ryan is certainly not denouncing this scripture.
The Word of God is quite clear throughout that sin and failure
to repent causes “death,” meaning separation from God, failure to
enter the Kingdom of Heaven, not necessarily physical death. Ryan is
only denouncing your absurd interpretation of the words of Jesus.
I don’t remember reading, “the wages of sin is accdidental
physical death.”
Monday, October 29, 2007
________________________________________
Nancy said...
One more thing.
I’m pretty sure Jesus meant, “repent and avoid an eternity of fiery
hell and most importantly an eternity apart from Me, the Lord.” Not so
much, “repent and avoid being hit in the head by a tower,
or repent and avoid being electrocuted, or repent and avoid a head-on
collision with a Mack
truck.”
Monday, October 29, 2007
________________________________________
ryan said...
Ok, just catching up on our debate here. I think it’s going pretty well,
though the whole thing is starting to give me tired head. Bob, I hope you’re
not to upset by all this. I appreciate your heart. Nancy,
you crack me up. :)
I made notes as I read the posts, so let me share them with you and
then, maybe, we’ll either move closer to reconciliation here,
or maybe we should just drop the whole thing.
Cohen’s quote that seems to be most problematic is this one:
“if you walk with the Lord you can know
and be fully assured that all things are in His hands and nothing
can happen to you except
He approves and desires it.” And this one, “What God teaches
in the Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated
and orchestrated by Him.”
Paul, can I infer from that that you believe that nothing happens
which God doesn’t desire to happen? Please consider the logical
ramifications of your answer. If that is so, then the Lord caused the
Nazi Holocaust because he desired it. The Lord caused the Israelites
to make a golden calf and worship it because he desired it (and He
didn’t really mean all that stuff about being a jealous God).
September 11, 2001 happened because God desired it. And the countless
times that the Lord pleaded with his people through his prophets and
yet they turned away in disobedience – those all happened because
the Lord desired them. He desired for people to blaspheme and reject
him and commit horrific sins. Is this your argument?
I think your confusion comes from your desire to separate “everything
that happens” from acts committed by people. In fact, I think
much of our disagreement could be resolved if we agreed on the definition
of “chance”. Let me explain and see if we can reach some
common ground…
I doubt that you would agree with the paragraph above (that God desired
and caused people to torture others Nazi death camps, etc.) because
you see those things as the result of the acts of sinful man. Clearly,
you would agree, God desires us all to live righteous lives in accordance
with his laws and character. He does not desire that we treat him or
his children with contempt. Thus, he did not desire that Hitler and
his men sin. He did not desire that the September 11 terrorists break
one of the 10 Commandments.
But on the other hand, you see a loose wire in a baptistery as not
being the direct result of the actions of carnal man. Since you believe
there are no “accidents”, there is only the will of God
obeyed or rejected by the will of man. Therefore, if no person malevolently
devised to murder Kyle Lake by electrifying his baptistery, then it
must have been God. Am I following your logic correctly?
Here’s where we disagree: I think the acts of sinful man lead
to something we call chance. By chance I don’t mean something
that is out of the knowledge or control of God. No such thing exists.
God knows and even allows all things to happen. But he doesn’t
cause all things to happen. If he did, why would he command us to do
anything? We would have no choice in the matter! In fact, why would
you argue with me? After all, I didn’t choose to hold these opinions.
If God causes all things to happen, then he caused me to draw, as you
say, “emotional and erroneous conclusions” from my “carnal
thinking and being.” Why argue with me? God has caused me to
think this way, and to email you, and to post these comments. Thus,
you’re not even arguing with me. You’re arguing with God!
You see the end of your logic? If carried to its conclusion, then
we are all pawns without the ability or the responsibility to obey
the very commands God gave us. Not even Calvin took his argument that
far.
If, however, we don’t gorge ourselves on the idea of predestination,
and consider God’s character in the scriptures and in our lives,
we see that he deals with us as I deal with my children – instructing
them, correcting them, but also allowing them to make their own mistakes.
And those mistakes lead to problems, complications, chance.
If I am walking past a street corner and drop a banana peel, and then
someone walks by a few minutes later and slips on the peel and falls,
and someone driving past the corner at that instant sees the pedestrian
fall and gets distracted for a moment and drives into another car causing
an accident, then who caused the accident? Who is at fault for the
accident? Me? The person who slipped? The driver who was distracted?
God? Or was it an accident at all? Did one of us – me, the pedestrian,
the driver or God – intend to cause a wreck? Could we not just
take all the circumstances in which thousands of small decisions by
fallen people combine to create happenstance and call them chance?
That is the definition most of the world – Christians included – use.
I think it would help if we could agree on that definition.
I also think it’s presumptuous for you to claim that you know
when God acts in judgment on someone (eg Kyle Lake ) and when someone
dies at the hand of sinful man (eg Christian martyrs.) Could not God
have been angry with Polycarp and called down judgment on him and we
have only mistaken it for martyrdom? Who are we to say? You called
Kyle Lake an “unrepentant fool” but how do you know the
stuff of Kyle’s heart? How do you know that he was unrepentant?
The answer is that you don’t. No one – not his wife or
friends of church members – only God knew that. You presume to
know, but you don’t know. Would that you had the humility to
leave some judgment to the Righteous Judge – to say that you
don’t know why Kyle Lake died, or why anyone dies, but that you
simply trust Jesus like a child and believe that he is incomprehensibly
just and gracious. Bob has emphasized this point pretty clearly so
I think you get the idea and I won’t harp on it any more. For
you to presume to know the mind of God beyond that which is revealed
in scripture is arrogant and asinine. And I wish you would stop.
So moving on, here’s another quote from your post:
“Have you not heard the many words of
the Lord that He spoke against the religious hypocrites of His day?
Have you not heard His
reference to the words of Isaiah, “This people honors Me with
their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Mark 7:6 MKJV)?
Have you not heard the testimony of the Word of God, that the people
in the wilderness sacrificed to the Lord in the name of their gods,
and suffered because of this (Acts 7:42-43)? Have you not seen the
great confusion and contradiction of the many religious sects and groups
that claim to be representing Christ?”
Let me answer your “have you not heards” with another:
Have you not considered that you could be the very apostate that you
decry? If one of the two of us must be a heretic, could it not be the
one who presumes to know the mind of God in conflict with two thousand
years of study, teaching and illumination from the greatest followers
of Jesus? You realize that you’re a pioneer here, right? That
the greatest teachers of the church, including Paul the Apostle, Luther,
Calvin, Wesley, Lewis, Spurgeon, Brother Lawrence, Billy Graham – they
all disagree with you. You have attained a level of elucidation beyond
that of popes and desert fathers, above that of every martyr and priest
and monk and evangelist in the history of the church. Is this your
argument?
Another quote:
“And by your stance you do indeed sanction
all religious, the very same that have been the known murderers and
plunderers of mankind
(the Catholic
Church, Church of England, Lutheran Church, etc.).”
Again, this is fuzzy logic, Paul. Please think these things through!
Surely you can see that because there have been murderers among the
members of the Lutheran Church, that does not prove false the teachings
of the Lutheran Church. Please tell me you understand this! And if
not, please tell me what church you attend where all the members are
sinless! Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers
and heretics. That is the whole point! We are all sinners! We all need
a savior who is stronger and wiser than we. I hope you’ll gain
the humility to admit that.
And now a word from Victor:
“You say, “I’m trusting him [God] to send hardship in my
life so that I can know him more.”
You have spoken and so will it be, even as it was with Kyle Lake.
You are also in for a surprise, as was he. What you receive will
not be
the sufferings the apostle Paul spoke of or received for righteousness’ sake,
but you will receive the suffering for unrighteousness’ sake – very
different (one brings life, the other death)”
Thank you, Victor, for reminding me of God’s grace. For every
day that passes in which I am not electrocuted in a baptistery, I will
count another day given me by the immeasurable grace of my Father and
another day that He has chosen to ignore your counsel.
Monday, October 29, 2007
________________________________________
Paul Cohen said...
Bob,
Regarding your first posting:
We are spokesmen of the One True God.
Nothing you have said proves otherwise, nor could it; you have only
given us your opinion. Do you think opinions matter to God? See The
Truth of God Is Not an Opinion and Opinion.
As for your eternal destiny, you are just as mistaken there as you
are about everything else we have written. Go read the materials in
The Restitution of
All Things section, and see what we have to say
about the final destiny of all men according to the glorious gospel
of the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom we preach.
Also, He will not forgive you until you acknowledge Him in us, and
acknowledge that you are yet offending Him by vaunting yourself against
us. He does not hear your prayers or confessions while you so readily
disdain and mock Him.
Now I will reply to your second posting, in which I will not need
to say some things because I have just covered them in my first response:
The things we have said about you and others mentioned in our letters
is not the result of losing “self control.” We speak soberly,
dispassionately, and accurately by the Spirit of God. We are speaking
Biblically, that is, in harmony with the definitions the Bible gives
for such things as fools and dogs, and, as the dictionary further defines,
mongrels are “of mixed kinds.” You are taking and mixing
the holy with carnal reasonings, men’s doctrines, and all kinds
of foolishness, the fruits of unbelief. Having been delivered from
our own foolishnesses we know the difference between faith and unbelief,
particularly the unbelief that claims to believe, which is what you,
Ryan, and Kyle Lake have all manifested. Why should we apologize for
what we know and see from God?
But you have no self-control over your tongue, as the apostle James
relates in Scripture:
“And the tongue is like a fire. It is a world of wrong, occupying
its place in our bodies and spreading evil through our whole being.
It sets on fire the entire course of our existence with the fire that
comes to it from hell itself” (James 3:6 GNB).
You ridicule us for exercising righteous judgment, mocking such a
thing as if it does not exist:
“You have judged my heart. I’m guessing, Victor, that’s
because you ‘see as He sees.’ Oh WOW! Now you claim to
have the mind of God!”
The Scriptures in no uncertain terms speak of those having the faith
of Christ as also having His mind (1 Corinthians 2:16). Yet you, in
all hypocrisy, contrary to your derisive dismissal of all judgment,
continuously unload unrighteous judgments on us, such as:
“...stooping to your level....”
“...self-righteous vipers....”
“You guys are the most judgmental, self-righteous,
modern day pharisaical legalists of which I am aware.”
You mock us for the very notion of discerning your hearts, as if such
a thing is blasphemy, and then proceed to do the same with us:
“You seek you prove how righteous YOU
are, and how judgmental YOU can be. You don’t seek to bring about the glory of God.”
“You operate under the guise of righteousness....”
“...everything that I read from you betrays
you for your hearts full of hate, bitterness, and thirst for self.”
You are a liar and hypocrite, Bob, false accuser of the brethren.
I state that as a fact, providing the evidence, unlike you, who has
none, because there is none to back up your accusations.
I never said I did not know Kyle Lake. What I said was that I had
something to say because I know Jesus Christ. Because I know Christ,
the Savior of all men, I do know Kyle Lake. Yes, I know him after the
Spirit, and not after the flesh, but this is the only way to truly
know anyone (2 Corinthians 5:16). From this place I reported what the
Lord had shown me and has given me to say about what happened to Kyle.
I also said I was not speaking against Kyle, but against the lie that
destroyed him. Those professing Christ who deny that such things come
from God are unbelieving fools, let the chips fall where they may.
Some will hear the truth and turn from vain philosophies and speculative
knowledge to the Lord.
You quote me, “What God teaches in the
Scriptures is that everything happens with purpose, initiated and
orchestrated by Him, to ultimately
bring about good. Kyle Lake denied this....” and you comment, “No
he didn’t! Read his writings (you will have to since you never
took the time to know him)!!!”
I did read Kyle’s writings, and he did deny God was doing everything,
both good and evil, quite emphatically. I even quoted his words:
“There are many, many intelligent
people who firmly believe that God does in fact cause all things
to happen
in today’s world,
even tragic situations. And they haven’t come to this conclusion
flippantly. Many believe this to be true after diligent study of the
Scriptures. However, that is not my belief.”
Obviously you are the one who needs to read his writings more carefully,
as well as mine. You are not accurately reporting what Kyle Lake or
I have said. Concerning the things of God, you are irresponsible, preferring
to promote your own thoughts, which are erroneous, rather than God’s,
which are life giving and are those we communicate.
Here is another quote from Kyle regarding Romans 8:28. He quotes a
portion of the Scripture (“We know that all things work together
for good...”) and poses a question he answers definitively:
“...does this statement mean that God
is currently causing all things that happen in the world? No.”
Can his denial get any clearer than that? Kyle sums up Romans 8:28
with the following interpretation:
“Disappointment, failure, and suffering
are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following
God, He can turn disappointment
and tragedy into new life.”
So how does God turn the disappointment of Kyle’s untimely death
into new life? I mean for Kyle. Can anyone here see and admit that
such an interpretation is ludicrous?
Here is the real interpretation of the verse:
“We and all those that love God and are called according to
His purpose know that He works all things together for good.”
Now that is redemptive. Kyle’s version is predicated on man’s
righteousness. If men are not righteous, they will never see good.
The Bible teaches that no man is righteous, so by Kyle’s gospel,
neither could any man ever expect to see good. Some hope! With hope
like that, who needs despair?
Kyle’s philosophy is antiChrist. You quote him:
“...all people who strive to thoughtfully
deal with God and life are forced to live within the tension of God’s providence
and a chaotic world.”
The salvation of mankind, by this measure, was left to mere chance.
Had Christ been pushed off the cliff, or hit by a lightening bolt,
or run over by a cart, or had a wall fall on Him, we would all be “sorry,
out of luck.” But, of course, his theory is wrong, all wrong.
Why? Because, while Kyle was certainly a likable fellow, intelligent
and thoughtful to some, he was not a servant of God, as were Peter
and Paul. He was not sent by God to minister salvation to his hearers.
That is why he even admittedly spoke of his beliefs and opinions, and
could not report what the Lord spoke to him because he did not hear
the Lord’s voice, which all true men of God do. He did not know
the Lord Jesus Christ, the Truth, and therefore could not preach THE
TRUTH.
You speak of this as if it were a virtue, so confused and turned around
you are in your religious spirit:
“Kyle is not being dogmatic. He never
said his interpretation of scripture is right...or wrong. Kyle is
not making any statements
that elevate him above God.”
Isn’t having an opinion contrary to God, and promoting it, even
going so far as to sell it to men, elevating yourself above God? Certainly
it is. But the simple, blind, ignorant, and wicked do not know this;
therefore we are sent to declare it, and religious hypocrites hate
us for it, just as the Lord said it would be:
“It is enough for the disciple that he is like his master, and
the servant like his lord. If they have called the Master of the house
Beelzebub, how much more those of His household?” (Matthew 10:25
MKJV)
You say, as if it exonerates Kyle, that he never intentionally intended
to take Scripture out of context. I never said he did. Neither did
the slayers of Christ think to intentionally kill the Son of God, but
they did. What Kyle intended is not the issue, but what he did, and
what happened to him as a result.
You write:
“I’m convinced you don’t even want me or any other
person to ever repent so that you can ‘keep the faith’ for
yourself.”
You say it is impossible to know another’s heart, yet you continually
judge ours wrongfully. This is wickedness and more hypocrisy, Bob.
We speak so that you might repent. You certainly cannot resist what
we say, so what other conclusion can there ultimately be?
Yes we are tearing down, not the brethren of Christ, but as prophesied:
“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men,
saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to
execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among
them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously,
and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against
Him” (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).
Destroying the world is your work, as one who follows the prince of
this world, the liar and accuser of the brethren. We are here to notify
everyone that the time to be humbled and to turn from your destructive
ways is now, or be turned into powder as promised:
“Whoever shall fall on that Stone shall be broken, but on whomever
it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Luke 20:18 MKJV).
Paul
Bob, Victor here,
I will add:
You write: “Now you claim to have the
mind of God! Yet, you are but just a man and you know nothing about
me.”
As Paul said, and as the Scriptures plainly declare, as the Lord’s
own, we can and do have the mind of God. That being true, we know far
more about you than you know. Your words and judgments tell you plainly.
You write: “However, when you spin and
turn and use scripture out of context you can make it say just about
anything.”
Paul has shown you that you have been wrong in your judgments of how
we interpret and apply Scripture. Who are you to judge if we are right
or wrong, not having the mind of God, the thought of which you deem
to be ridiculous to contemplate for anyone? The only way one can truly
know is by His mind.
You write: “Lastly, your purpose for judging
and lambasting Kyle, Ryan, and myself....”
Show us where we lambasted, by a qualified dictionary definition of
the term. The fact is that you are not able to do so, and therefore
falsely accuse us. Where does that leave you, Bob, not only in a temporary
mood, but far more significantly, a state of being?
You write: “I’ve had to stop and pray many times that
this post would be about upholding truth rather than me ‘showing
you up.’”
It is apparent your prayers have not been heard. Neither have you “shown
us up,” though trying your best (or worst).
You write: “Men who seek to meekly rebuke
and instruct operate in a much different way than you guys operate.”
You are right; they do. The problem is that you judge us wrongfully,
firstly, and, secondly, you judge us by false standards, by men the
conduct of those who pose as men of God but who have nothing to do
with Him:
“For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming
themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously
transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great
thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness,
whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15
MKJV).
You have been snared by the love of Satan, known widely in nominal
Christendom, taught and trained by the harlot, as God’s love.
You are deceived; you judge us by false standards. See this section
for your sake:
You write: “Christ always sought to deliver
His message in love.”
Not knowing Christ, how can you say anything about Him? Not knowing
anything about true love, how can you judge? Those very words alone
that you speak in that sentence tell your darkness. I will not explain.
You are not interested in knowing the truth. You have nothing to do
with Him, nor do you wish to, so why pretend to glorify Him? Get honest.
You write: “Obviously you gave no thought
to what Kyle’s
wife would think were she to waywardly land on your ‘Path of
Destruction’ site.”
“Obviously” to us, you are wrong, Bob. You are wrong in
all your words and your whole spirit is a wretched one. You are full
of frustration and anger. Why? Where and how in your life did you develop
that spirit? Continue in your ways and you will destroy yourself.
Our site plays no favorites; the chips fall where they must. If Kyle’s
widow were to come to our site, seeking the Lord of Heaven and earth,
she would be very thankful to find us. All who seek the Truth love
us and what we have to say, even if, at first, it hurts. But if she
remains where she has apparently been, one with Kyle in heart, she
will be offended, and so it is with all those who live in delusion.
We love Kyle Lake’s widow, and so we speak to all. The question
is: “Does she love us?”
You write: “You clearly don’t care what an unbeliever
would think were they to land on your site. They would never understand
why you, who claim to be believing, would publicly trash the work of
another believer.”
Again, what is clear to you one way is clear to us another, and we
know there is nothing clear to a blind man, as he may suppose.
We are not of this world. We are not here to make unbelievers understand.
We are here to speak the truth so that they might be enlightened. There
is a difference.
As importantly, we publicly trash nothing good coming forth from believers.
We trash the error and falsehood coming forth from false believers,
who deceive with their lies, and we trash the error that comes from
true, yet mistaken believers. Is it not declared that false works will
be destroyed by fire? Is not God’s Word as fire? We speak God’s
Word. What is fire for? So why do you find fault with us? Are you afraid
of losing your works? If stubble can stand up to fire, so will you
and your works stand up to our godly speech of judgment.
The world of unbelievers must know there is falsehood paraded in the
Name of the Lord. How will they know unless informed? We inform them.
If they grow cynical, it is not because of the Truth spoken by us but
because of the Truth rejected by them. Cynics have no excuse; there
are no external causes and therefore no excuses.
Bob, you are a foolish and angry child with a full mouth, an empty
head and both expressing a bitter heart. The Lord can fix all that.
I know, because I have also been there. One day you will know your
state and be quite ashamed of yourself, as I have been. God’s
grace will be bestowed on you to make it so.
“Am I now your enemy, just because I told you the truth” (Galatians
4:16 CEV)?
Victor
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
________________________________________
Paul Cohen said...
Nancy,
You ask:
“So... does that mean that God desired
the 9/11 tragedy and approved of it or that absolutely no one killed
on that day was ‘walking
with the Lord?’”
Yes, it absolutely does, though He took “no pleasure in the
death of the wicked.” If it does not, then Jesus Christ is a
liar and fool, according to His words that you quote from Luke 13 about
the 18 who perished. Your interpretation is quite in conflict with
His, because He was equating what would happen to those who did not
repent with what happened to those who physically perished. You are
twisting His words, spiritualizing them to mean that only the next
life was at stake. Clearly He was talking about the present life and
the ramifications of what happens on this earthly plane because the
spiritual, the Kingdom of Heaven, and more particularly the King, is
spurned, His Word rejected. Hear the Word of God:
“And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah
your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give
ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none
of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for
I am Jehovah Who heals you” (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
So God spares one a heart attack and lets him perish publicly by electrocution
instead? Or He saves those under the Law but lets those in grace perish?
Or protection is only for the flesh-circumcised Jew but not for those
who possess Him within because circumcised in the heart? Perhaps you
propose we depart from Christ to go back to Moses?
To say that He was talking about them being separated from God if
they did not heed His call shows your ignorance of the way things are,
because those in sin are already separated from God. They are spiritually
dead, which is why they are called to repent and to enter into life
in the first place. You cannot withhold or take away what is already
not present. The Kingdom of God is within, and those in sin do not
presently possess it.
Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead.”
The wages paid by sin are death. There is no contradiction. Death
is already here, present all around you, and in you:
“The people sitting in darkness saw a great Light; and to those
sitting in the region and shadow of death, Light sprang up to them” (Matthew
4:16 LITV).
You do not know or acknowledge these things because you have religion,
not reality.
Those walking in the will of God know there is no such thing as the “free
will” of others. They recognize that God alone has a free will.
All things come from His hand, even as Christ recognized in the days
of His flesh, submitting Himself to death by His will. Jesus told Pilate
that he could have nothing except it had been given to him from above.
This is why the saints in Christ do not fear man or the unknown. With
God there is no unknown. We know nothing happens except God gives it
to happen. He is in full control. That is the message of God, which
He has given us to tell the world, to you and all other unbelieving
believers.
As for your “one more thing,” the Lord was not telling
people to repent to avoid getting electrocuted, and He certainly was
not telling them to repent to avoid “an eternity of fiery hell.” He
was telling them, and He is telling you, to repent so that you might
enter into Life. Life is the antidote to death. That is His goal. That
is the purpose for which He gave His life, which was not in vain, as
you conclude, destining the vast majority of people throughout history
for endless torture. What a diabolical and blasphemous depiction of
God you promote! Your god is hell and death!
I have directed Bob to a section on our site that fully addresses
the slanderous and false teaching of “eternal hell.” You
should also go there, where you will also find a writing on the fallacy
of free will. Since when have slaves of sin been free?
Paul
Ryan, Victor here: Does Nancy still “crack you up”? Will
you continue to be humored by darkness, flattering participants for
your vanity?
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
________________________________________
Kibbles said...
Paul,
I will confess to being new to this blog and new to this issue in
particular here. I will say that I have read a bit of your
website, The Path of Truth,
and have a few questions that I hope to have you clarify for me.
1. Is it your belief that God ‘caused’ Adam and Eve to eat of the
tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden? What, do you
believe, is the relationship between God’s soverienty as Creator, and
humanity’s free will?
2. What exactly do you see as the effects of the fall? Both post-fall,
pre-Jesus (as in the incarnation of Jesus), and post-Incarnation?
It seems that you
believe the the effects of the fall have changed post-Incarnation.
3. I see you write about Paul and Peter being killed for the
sake of the Gospel. Who caused them to be killed? I am going
to assume
that
God also
had control
and ‘causation’ of their deaths based on your views. Am I
wrong?
Also, if Paul and Peter were killed by human agents for preaching
the Gospel, do you believe that Kyle Lake could have died
under similar circumstances?
In other words, can you answer the differences between the
deaths of
Paul and Peter, and that of Kyle Lake?
I will confess I didn’t know Kyle Lake, and know very little about the
circumstances of his death and/or ministry. I will also confess that I don’t
understand how your views really take into consideration the body of
orthodox Christian belief. Thank you for your time in answering these
questions about
your point of view.
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
________________________________________
Paul Cohen said...
Ryan,
The big difference between us is that we know what we are talking
about, and you do not. You constantly use words to indicate this, such
as:
“Cohen’s quote seems....”
“...can I infer...?”
“Is this your argument?”
“Am I following your logic correctly?”
“I think your confusion....”
“I think....”
“I also think it is presumptuous for you....”
“...could it not be...?”
But you do not ever know and cannot ever say for sure. We know, and
therefore we speak, knowing that His Word is sure and will not return
to Him void. That answers one of your objections as to why we should
bother speaking to you if you are fulfilling God’s will by walking
in darkness. How will that darkness be put away except by Light? More
on that as I answer your post.
To begin with, we are not speaking by man’s logic. That is why
you are confused and do not understand us, trying to discern what we
preach by your carnal mind:
“These things we also speak, not in words which man’s
wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual
things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things
of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can
he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians
2:13-14 MKJV).
Nevertheless, we can help by pointing out your errors, and others
who will read these things will see the difference and learn to fear
God, which you do not for now.
To compound things, you actively seek to debunk or discredit us rather
than to know the Truth, which leads you to make foundational and costly
mistakes. You misread the very quote you call most problematic and
on which you base your response, running ahead in your erroneous inference,
spending enormous energy and further confusing your already “tired
head.” How can you ever hear or learn anything from the Lord
in your present state?
Your mistake: I did not say that everything you do is God’s
will. I said nothing happens to you, except God approves or desires
it. Obviously I am not saying that God desires you to sin. What I said
is that He is over every detail of your life, down to the smallest
one, and I said this on His authority, as also recorded in the Bible
in His words.
The Lord did not cause the children of Israel to make the golden calf,
but He did command, through Moses, those returning and faithful to
Him to slaughter the offenders, their own brothers, friends and neighbors:
“And he said to them, This is the word of the Lord, the God
of Israel: Let every man take his sword at his side, and go from one
end of the tents to the other, putting to death his brother and his
friend and his neighbor. And the sons of Levi did as Moses said; and
about three thousand of the people were put to death that day” (Exodus
32:27-28 BBE).
How quickly you condemn Moses and all God’s servants, because
you condemn Him for His judgments.
The Holocaust most certainly was an act of God. Out of the ashes of
the Holocaust the nation of Israel was reborn. The Jews cannot forget
their God forever. He will bring them back to Himself, as promised.
Read our letters and writings in Israel
and the Jew.
Certainly the saints of the past, such as Daniel, would have recognized
the Holocaust as coming from the hand of God. Daniel, in his exile,
confessed the sins of his people, which is quite instructional for
us to consider here today:
Daniel 9:3-16 MKJV
(3) And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy
desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.
(4) And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said,
O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy to
those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
(5) we have sinned and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly,
and have rebelled, even by departing from Your commandments and from
Your judgments.
(6) Neither have we listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke
in Your Name to our kings, our rulers, and our fathers, and to all
the people of the land.
(7) O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us the shame of our
faces, as it is today to the men of Judah and to the people of Jerusalem,
and to all Israel who are near and who are afar off, through all the
countries where You have driven them because of their sin which
they have sinned against You.
(8) O Lord, shame of face belongs to us, to our kings, to our rulers,
and to our fathers, because we have sinned against You.
(9) To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we
have rebelled against Him.
(10) We have not obeyed the voice of Jehovah our God, to walk in His
Laws which He set before us by His servants the prophets.
(11) Yea, all Israel has transgressed Your Law, and turned aside, that
they might not obey Your voice. Therefore the curse has been poured
out on us, and the oath that is written in the Law of Moses the servant
of God, because we have sinned against Him.
(12) And He has confirmed His Words which He spoke against us and against
our judges who judged us, by bringing on us a great evil. For under
all the heavens it has not been done as it has been done to Jerusalem.
(13) As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this evil has
come on us. Yet we did not make our prayer before Jehovah our God,
that we
might turn from our iniquities, and understand Your truth.
(14) Therefore Jehovah has watched over the evil, and has brought
it on us. For Jehovah our God is righteous in all His works which He does;
for we did not obey His voice.
(15) And now, O Lord our God, Who have brought Your people out from
the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have brought fame to Yourself,
as it is today, we have sinned, we have done wrong.
(16) O Lord, I pray You, according to all Your righteousness let
Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy
mountain. Because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers,
Jerusalem and Your people have become a curse to all those who are
around us.
For those such as you, your friends, and all those following false
teachers like Kyle, what chance is there that the wrath of God can
be turned from you when you do not confess the evils that come on you
from the hand of your Lord God and Savior because of your sins?
When the nations that God has formed for Israel’s correction
have served His purpose, He will also use Israel to correct them, that
He might have mercy on all:
“For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show
mercy to all” (Romans 11:32 MKJV).
This you do not know, confess, or care to know.
9/11 was from the hand of God, a solemn rebuke to a hypocritical,
light and false people, who freely have received of God, and have despised
His goodness, abusing others in the process. Has America repented?
No. Therefore the wrath of God must continue in its many manifestations.
And do you think those people in the twin towers were greater sinners
than any of you? The Lord Jesus Christ says “No, but unless you
repent you will all likewise perish.” Read The
Muslim Scourge.
The Scriptures teach that all people operate under God:
“A man may make designs for his way, but the Lord is the guide
of his steps” (Proverbs 16:9 BBE).
“The king’s heart is like streams of water. Both are under
the LORD’S control. He turns them in any direction He chooses” (Proverbs
21:1 GW).
You apparently have not bothered to read the section on our site that
I sent you, The Restitution
of All Things. There you will find another
writing you should also read, Whose
Will is Free? How irresponsible
you people are, ranting without knowledge or fulfilling your due diligence
in a matter of utmost importance. It is a shame to the Name of God,
which you have taken in vain.
Just as the man in Romans chapter 9 replies against God, you also
contest His sovereignty in your unbelief, asking the equivalent question
of me:
“You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who
has resisted His will?” (Romans 9:19 MKJV).
I will let Paul the apostle, with whom you are the one obviously in
disagreement, answer you:
“No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall
the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, Why have You made me this
way? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump
to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, willing
to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make
known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had
before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews,
but also of the nations?” (Romans 9:20-24 MKJV)
You say there is “chance,” which God is somehow over but
does not determine. You plainly argue with His Word:
“A thing may be put to the decision of chance, but it comes
about through the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33 BBE).
“Could we not just take all the circumstances
in which thousands of small decisions by fallen people combine to
create happenstance
and call them chance? That is the definition most of the world - Christians
included - use.”
True Christians do not use the world’s definition because they
know that God is in control, not happenstance. You worship another
god, a false and impotent one who leaves things to “chaos” and “chance.”
You say it is presumptuous of us to speak of God’s specific
judgments on individuals, or if we speak and identify others as martyrs.
Can you really not hear how stupid your arguments are? Where does one
get the idea that God would not give His children eyes with which to
see? Does He not tell us to judge by the fruits? How can one judge
unless one can see, recognize, and differentiate between good and evil
fruit?
At every turn you call Christ a liar by your declarations and summations
and I will tell you why. You do not wish to come into the Light to
be judged yourself, so you deny it can be applied to others. Without
His judgment you cannot be saved, and you, in your ignorance and evil,
deny others the salvation that Christ purchased for them. As He said
to your fathers:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you
shut up the Kingdom of Heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor
do you allow those who are entering to go in” (Matthew 23:14
EMTV).
Of course, being the consummate hypocrite, you go ahead anyway and
list some that are not martyrs with true martyrs of God, proving your
point applies to you – you have no discernment and are wrong
to guess in such matters. Cassie Bernall, it is reported by more than
one witness at the Columbine shooting incident, never said what has
been attributed to her (confessing faith in God before her killer).
Her actual words were: “Dear God. Dear God. Why is this happening?
I just want to go home.” That hardly makes her a martyr.
I bring this up to demonstrate once again that you are careless in
your statements, and do not know what you are talking about, even when
the facts are before you.
You continuously falsely judge our motives and impugn the Word of
God:
“For you to presume to know the mind of
God beyond that which is revealed in scripture is arrogant and asinine.”
Paul the apostle, according to you, was most arrogant and asinine:
“For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be
His teacher? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16
BBE).
Every time you write something you prove that everything we say is
true. For example, when you refuse to answer my questions about how
the Scriptures point out the deadly poison of man’s religion,
and the need for saints to be separated from such, you prove my point
by citing Billy Graham and popes and monks among others as authorities
of God. Those are advocates for Mystery, Babylon the Great, the whore
who sits on many waters.
You say there are murderers in the Lutheran and other churches, but
do not realize that the very notion of being a “Lutheran,” or
of any other man, is antiChrist. It is the work of the murderous and
unregenerate spirit of man, at enmity with Christ, Who is God. You
say:
“Every church in history has been full
of murderers and adulterers and heretics.”
Yes, they have, and remain so, because they are not delivered from
their sins, having a form of religion but denying the Substance, Christ,
Who is without the gate, with those who are His.
You ask, “... please tell me what church
you attend where all the members are sinless!”
We answer: The same one as Paul the apostle, and as all the spirits
of just men made perfect:
“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly
and gave Himself up on its behalf, that He might sanctify it, cleansing
it by the washing of the water in the Word, that He might present it
to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or
any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians
5:25-27 LITV).
Which is our present duty and state of being...
“Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent
to be found by Him in peace, without spot or blemish” (2 Peter
3:14 EMTV).
...as the bride of Christ:
“No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His
seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of
God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil
are manifest” (1 John 3:9,10 EMTV).
The only church you know, the one you defend and justify, gathers
in the spirit you describe:
“Everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God,
nor is he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:10 EMTV).
You evilly surmise or imply that Victor is asking God to kill you.
He is not asking God for anything at all in what he related to you.
He is bringing you a message from God’s throne about your request.
You will get what you ask for, the appropriate wages of your unrighteous
attitude and behavior. We are binding on earth what He has already
bound in Heaven. Go on, find fault with Him for that too, mocker. The
Path of Truth is indeed a dead end street for the man of sin, and thank
God for that. You will live to get your reward, and you will know that
God has sent us.
Paul
Victor here,
Here is the explanation for your “tired head”:
“For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit
is life and peace: Because the mind of the flesh is opposite to God;
it is not under the law of God, and is not able to be: So that those
who are in the flesh are not able to give pleasure to God” (Romans
8:6-8 BBE).
Ears, though there are two, expend much less energy when used than
does one mouth. You would do well to quit tiring your head and reap
untold benefits:
“But as it is written, ‘Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,’ nor
has it entered into the heart of man, ‘the things which God has
prepared for those who love Him.’ But God has revealed them to
us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep
things of God” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 MKJV).
You write: “You presume to know, but you
don’t know. Would
that you had the humility to leave some judgment to the Righteous Judge....”
We know, Ryan, but do you? If you must speak, then speak those words
to your own ears. We also judge as He gives us to judge. Do you? You
speak and judge to please yourself, to show that you can argue or that
you have knowledge, though you prove nothing but the fool you are.
Truth is the farthest thing from your mind and heart. Of you, Jesus
said:
“You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” (Matthew
22:29 MKJV).
BETTER: You and your friends
do not even know or believe that one can know the Truth without doubt
or
wavering, as the Holy Scriptures testify,
without having to resort to, or rely upon, opinion and unproven, unscriptural
doctrine in order to be involved in things too high for you.
You and your friends do not even know or believe that one can know
the Truth as the Holy Scriptures testify one can and must, without
having to resort to, or rely upon, opinion and unproven, unscriptural
doctrine in things too high for the earthly, carnal man.
But we testify to that which we know because we know Him Who is true:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify
what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness” (John
3:11 MKJV).
“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not
of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and
the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
________________________________________
ryan said...
Ok, I’m getting close to giving up on this, but I’ll post another
response. Maybe I can get Paul and Victor to blame God for the Aggies crappy
passing game too. That’d make me feel better. Anyway, a few observations
from this latest journey down “Path of Truth.”
I notice we’re quoting a lot more of the articles on the “Path
of Truth” website and not so much scripture this time around.
“Also, He will not forgive you
until you acknowledge Him in us, and acknowledge that you are yet
offending Him by vaunting
yourself against
us. He does not hear your prayers or confessions while you so readily
disdain and mock Him.”
God will not forgive me until I acknowledge you? Can you give me the
scripture reference for this one? I’m having trouble finding
that in my Bible…
Paul, what is your sin? What sin do you struggle with? You have written
yourself that “The Bible teaches that
no man is righteous.” So
please be genuine with us as a fellow traveler so that we can identify
with you and consider your words a worthy source of wisdom.
“The Scriptures in no uncertain terms speak of those
having the faith of Christ as also having His mind (1 Corinthians 2:16).”
Here again, you mishandle the scriptures. In 1 Cor 2, Paul certainly
does not mean to say that believers know the mind of God. To the contrary,
Paul is quoting Isaiah who wrote:
“Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with
the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains
on the scales and the hills in a balance?
Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor?
Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the
right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?”
You see, this is hyperbole – something you consistently fail
to understand. Paul’s question is rhetorical. Its obvious answer
is no one. Though you may think that you know the mind of God, Paul,
and that you have instructed the Lord and been his counselor and shown
him the path of understanding, you have not. I promise.
“I do know Kyle Lake. Yes, I
know him after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, but this is the
only way to truly know anyone
(2 Corinthians
5:16). From this place I reported what the Lord had shown me and has
given me to say about what happened to Kyle.”
Ok, now this is getting ridiculous. Paul, do you sense a disturbance
in the force? Can you discern for me who’s going to win that
Patriots/Colts game on Sunday because I’d like to place a bet…
“Here is the real interpretation
of the verse:”
Again, presumptuous. Let all Christendom be still and silent now.
The chosen one, Paul Cohen, has chosen to reveal his inherent knowledge
to us…
“We are sent to declare it”… “We
are here to notify everyone that the time to be humbled and to turn
from your destructive
ways is now”
When you say these things, who is the “we” to whom you
refer? I mean are you and Victor the only true Christians? Who else
is righteous that we should listen to? I’m serious. Do you belong
to a church or follow a certain preacher or author? It would help me
get a handle on where you’re coming from if I knew who you consider “we”.
Now Victor says, “I will not
explain.”
I love this one. It exemplifies the tone of Victor and Paul’s
posts. They’re not interested in discourse. They don’t
say, with the Lord, “Come, let us reason together.” Instead,
they just make assertions and then argue that disagreement with their
assertions is evidence that we don’t know God. It’s circular
and imbecilic.
“All who seek the Truth love
us.”
Again with the arrogance.
“'So... does that mean that God desired the 9/11 tragedy and
approved of it or that absolutely no one killed on that day was 'walking
with the Lord?'”
“Yes, it absolutely does, though He took
'no pleasure in the death of the wicked.' If it does not, then Jesus
Christ is
a liar and fool”
WOW!!! WOOOOOW! WOW!
I think the most destructive part of this is not the argument that
God chose 3,000 people to punish, gathered them in an office tower
one Tuesday morning, and then killed them all with a terrorist. I
think the most Luciferion thing here is that Paul somehow then links
that to the veracity of Jesus’ claims. Again, Paul is asserting
rather than proving, but to say that if 9/11 wasn’t God’s
judgment then Jesus was a liar and fool is simply evil. Paul, please
think these things through before you write them! Surely you don’t
believe these things! And if you do, then we need to back up and
stop arguing about these matters and start discussing some much more
basic matters.
“And he said, If you will carefully
listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is
right in His sight,
and will give ear
to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these
diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am
Jehovah Who heals you” (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).
So we’re back to this argument that bad things don’t happen
to true Christians, huh? True followers don’t get sick? Have
you ever been sick, Paul?
“Those walking in the will of
God know there is no such thing as the “free
will” of others.”
Here we go. Now we’re getting back to the heart of this argument.
Paul, please support your argument that no humans have free will. Specifically,
explain these things:
If you have the truth and I am opposing you, who is willing me to oppose
the truth?
Who wills me to sin?
Who willed that Adam and Eve sin in the garden?
Ok, Paul. You quoted several places where I invited you to clarify
your position or explain your logic, then declared that you don’t
need to explain your logic because you’re not using “human
logic.” You write:
“To begin with, we are not speaking by
man’s logic. That
is why you are confused and do not understand us, trying to discern
what we preach by your carnal mind.”
So here’s the thing: I, by the power of my spiritual discernment,
by the illuminated and self-evident truth of God found in his scriptures,
and not by man’s logic, hereby declare that you are an apostate
and heretic. I further declare that you are deceived in your thinking
and that you are living according to your own, prideful and carnal
desires. That you have no knowledge of the one true God and that you
are, in fact, the Antichrist, seeking to deceive and destroy God’s
people.
How’s that? Now that you and I have “declared” opposing
viewpoints, how do we decide whose declaration is right? How do we
know who is speaking from the Lord and who is speaking from Satan?
Here, I’ll answer for you: I’m right. You’re wrong.
There. I declared it and I’m also declaring that I have authority
to declare it. So “slug bug, no slug bugs back.” I gotcha
first. I win.
“
Your mistake: I did not say that everything you
do is God’s will.
I said nothing happens to you, except God approves or desires it. Obviously
I am not saying that God desires you to sin.”
Aha! But aren’t many of the things that happen to me the result
of someone else’s sin? If not for Hitler’s sin then death
by poisonous gas wouldn’t have happened to thousands of Jews,
right? If not for the terrorists’ sin, then 9/11 would not have
happened to those victims. So who caused those things to “happen
to” them? Are there accidents or not, Paul. It’s time to
decide.
“The Holocaust most certainly
was an act of God.” “9/11
was from the hand of God,”
Losing… life force… must… abort…… must………… abort……
“You apparently have not bothered
to read the section on our site that I sent you.”
No, I haven’t. I think I’m getting plenty of your stuff
here though. Thanks.
“Every time you write something
you prove that everything we say is true.”
Is this kinda like, “I’m rubber. You’re glue. Whatever
you say bounces off me and sticks on you.”?
“Billy Graham and popes and
monks...Those are advocates for Mystery, Babylon the Great, the whore
who sits on many waters.”
I…I don’t know what to say. I…Am I dreaming this?
“'Every church in history has been full of murderers and adulterers
and heretics.'”
“Yes, they have, and remain so, because
they are not delivered from their sins, having a form of religion
but denying the Substance, Christ,
Who is without the gate, with those who are His.”
So, again, where do you go to church, Paul? Where do we heretics find
the real church? The perfect people? And what do we bring to the potluck?
Wednesday, October 31, 2007
________________________________________
bob said...
Sheesh. This is so circular. Luckily, I love circles. I love everything
about them. I love how round and cirular they are. I love how
every point on a circle
is the exact distance from the center as any other point. I love how
circles have radii. It’s truly fantastic.
Now, Paul and Victor, please enlighten me as to how I actually do
not like circles! Teach me that I prefer squares and things with corners
and straight lines, not because I am able to like things with right
angles on my own accord, but because you guys have decided to give
YOUR OWN opinion on the matter. Please tell me what I like because,
according to you, so far I’ve been wrong about everything else
and I’m hanging on your every word to know what I think.
Forgive me for the above silliness! I am but a “foolish and
angry child with a full mouth and an empty head” so I’m
trying to fulfill the role which Paul and Victor have assigned to me.
Now, by their argument that God causes everything, God chose to make
me such a “foolish and angry child with a full mouth and an empty
head.” He could have chosen to intend that I repent of my anger
and seek HIS KNOWLEDGE, but instead he made me foolish and empty headed...bummer!
Paul and Victor have spoken told us that is the case because they “state
[things] as fact, providing the evidence” to back up all their
accusations. Thank heavens! Since I truly do struggle with anger at
times I was under the assumption that it was my own sinful nature that
caused it when, in fact, God gave that to me and I can do nothing about
it. This is a relief!
At least it was a relief until I read Ryan’s latest post! Now
I really don’t know what to believe. Both Ryan and Paul/Victor
have made claims that each is a heretic and a liar. Both claim this
on their own authority through their reception of spiritual discernment,
by the illuminated and self-evident truth of God found in his scriptures.
If these guys are making claims like this then they must be right.
But who is right? And who is wrong? If I wait long enough perhaps Ryan
will call me a wise and full-headed child and then that will be so?
So who is right?And if God caused both of these groups to make such
statements then is it possible for them to both be correct? I mean,
God would not have caused anything to be done that He did not intend,
which means He intended for both groups to make such assertions, which
means that they are now both correct. Smokes! Now I’m really
in for it! I could potentially be both empty-headed and full-headed
at the same time! Will that then make me half-headed, again out of
the will of both Paul/Victor and Ryan?
If only there were some place that I can go to find a single source
of Truth? Hmm...empty head trying to think...umm...Oh yeah, the Bible!
Fortunately I have a full translation and not just the cut out, manually-finessed
quotes that Paul and Victor have graciously interpreted for me here
and on the “path of destruction” web site. Now, don’t
get me wrong here. I’m not approaching the scripture that they
use lightly or in jest, just their narrow-minded interpretation of
it. In fact, it is from the Word of God that I learn of Christ’s
sacrifice for me. I believe the scriptures. I do not believe Paul and
Victor.
So, here, I proclaim it. I am a follower of the Christ in the scriptures.
I am a sinner in need of a Savior and a Spirit living in me that will
daily intercede on my behalf before the Father. I declare it to all.
I believe that Christ lived a perfect life, died, and was resurrected
for me, and not me only, but all who join me in believing in their
hearts and confessing it with their mouths...even for Paul and Victor
if they chose to do so.
Paul and Victor will soon argue that I have “only given [them]
my opinion” and that God “does not hear my prayers or confessions.” They
will reiterate that they “can” and “do” have
the mind of God. When they say this, be sure you are a safe distance
from them. Lightning travels at about 186,000 miles per second so getting
out of the way once they claim this may prove difficult.
But do not lose heart. Christ wins. He wins no matter what I or Ryan
or Kibbles or Nancy or Paul or Victor say.
I have to post and run, but believe me, I still have some things to
say and will do so unless I am rendered unable to access the nothingness
in my head.
Wednesday, October 31, 2007
________________________________________
bob said...
Well, I managed to find my way back to this site, which, in itself,
is apparently miraculous.
Ryan, you are curious about to whom the “we” refers in
all Paul’s writings. It clearly refers to “Paul and Victor”,
the only two people on earth that know my heart. I’m probably
only “giving my opinion”, but when you look at their website,
Paul’s own testimony is more about - and I quote Paul here - “being
brought together with Victor to be made, in time, one in faith, calling
and purpose.” Sure, there is an acknowledgement to the Lord,
but isn’t the “oneness in faith” that we enter into
with Christ, rather than another human being? My testimony is about
the salvation Christ gave to me even though I don’t deserve it.
Secondly, Ryan, you want to know what Paul’s sin is...what he
struggles with. The answer, according to their website, is that he
has no sin and he struggles with nothing. Their web site says this, “Those
who are the Lord’s and choose to remain His will not, do not
willfully sin.” I think it’s clear that Paul and Victor
believe they belong to God...so from this statement we can infer that
they also believe they do not sin. Amazing! Truly! I was aware of only
1 person who walked the Earth sinless. He was also fully God. His name
was not Paul. His name was not Victor. His name was Jesus. I agree
that absolutely we should not sin, that Christ calls us to sin no more,
and His perfection is the stick by which we are measured. Oh, I’m
way on board with that calling. I know it’s NEVER okay to sin,
ever. But, when Christ asked only the sinless in the group to cast
the first stone there is a reason that the adulteress walked away,
forgiven. Yes, yes, I know Christ told her to sin no more. That is,
of course, what He wants and what He deserves of us. That is the point.
The problem is that I, like every other man who could not pick up a
stone, am broken...by my own choice apart from God or by His “doing”.
Either way, I’m a sinner in need of a Savior.
Yet, Paul Cohen, sites Paul the Apostle as one who lived righteously.
I agree! What an example! But Paul the Apostle was not sinless. If
he was, why would the Apostle Paul tell us to follow him as he followed
Christ? If the Apostle was sinless wouldn’t it be fine for me
to just follow him? Don’t like that logic? Then try this: Paul
the Apostle called himself the cheif of sinners. He didn’t use
past tense.
Look at Philippians 3:12 “Not that I have already obtained all
this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold
of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.”
So, who, I ask, is the hypocrite? Paul and Victor will say it is I,
in my “temporary mood and state of being”. Praise God!
This body is only temporary!
Moving along. Victor challenges me by saying “show us where
we lambasted, by a qualified dictionary definition of the term.” Sure,
Victor. Does the Merriam-Webster dictionary qualify, or do you have
your own version of that as well? For all, here it is from Merriam-Webster:
