A site reader wrote:
You are false teachers, for teaching Christ is God. I still think you are way to harsh on those you do not consider teaching the truth. Especially when you are guilty of worshiping Christ as God. This is terrible!
Terry, of Jesus Christ it is written:
“For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV).
“…keep this commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will show in His own time, He Who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords” (1 Timothy 6:14-15 EMTV).
If you don’t worship the Creator, and if you don’t worship the Lord of lords, just who do you worship, Johann Bach (since your e-mail handle is “bachisgreat”)? Worship is automatically due to the One Who made us, Who is highest of all, and Who bought and paid for us with His blood.
Those who know Jesus Christ know Him as God:
“And Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed’” (John 20:28-29 MKJV).
Revelation 1:12-18 MKJV
(12) And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me.
(13) And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands. And in the midst of the seven lampstands I saw One like the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and tied around the breast with a golden band.
(14) His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And His eyes were like a flame of fire.
(15) And His feet were like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace. And His voice was like the sound of many waters.
(16) And He had seven stars in His right hand, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. And His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
(17) And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, “Do not fear, I am the First and the Last,
(18) and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of Hell and of death.”
Can you, Johann Bach, or any other man raise himself from the grave and live forevermore as the ruling Spirit over all things, good and evil? Jesus Christ holds the keys to your prison of Hell and death, and you’re proud that you don’t worship Him? You’re the very definition of a fool.
It’s one thing to be ignorant and not know anything about God, but it’s another to speak presumptuously as if you do know something, when you are totally blind and in the dark. This is why we speak “harshly” to you.
But truly, there is nothing harsh about telling you the truth. Harsh is what you sow for by denying the Lord Jesus Christ:
“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).
Terry, let’s have a poker game here and see who has the better hand, and therefore the upper hand. You play the cards you’ve been dealt and so will we.
We are in the enviable position where we need not hold our cards close to our chest in fear that our opponent may have a better hand and thus win the wager or take the pot. We need not bluff or hope for a one-card draw to better our hand, never mind three or four. We can lay our cards on the table… and we have. And it so happens we show you a royal flush. This can be seen at our sections, which have articles with Scriptural arguments and proofs that cannot be reasonably refuted: Jesus Christ Is God and The Trinity.
You either have not been aware that we have those cards, or you deny we have them though you are aware. In either case, you have no cards to lay down that offer the slightest chance of winning, do you? You’ve been dealt a lousy hand, about as bad as it can be. We know because you’re afraid to lay down your cards to prove you have something better. You have nothing but scoffing and scorn to offer, and what good is that to anyone?
Why don’t you have anything? Because in your enlightenment, you have, and are, denied the Light of the world:
John 1:1-5 MKJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word [Jesus Christ], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
“Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!‘” (John 8:58 MKJV)
Why would you believe our writings based on the Bible when you don’t believe the Bible, right? Why are you at a loss to show us something worthwhile? We call your bluff because, wonder of wonders, we’re able to see your hand though you hold it close to your chest. We see your hand of unmarked cards and know that you have no hand like ours.
Other children of darkness come to us with marked cards – their false and wicked Scriptural arguments and justifications for living like devils while condemning the saints, thinking to have a better hand. You say we are “harsh” with these presumptuous pretenders, while they’re trying to cheat, having cheated themselves firstly – deceived and deceitful ones that lead away any who would follow them into destruction. You are one of those, preferring to be bit by a viper rather than warned of his presence.
We win, and you lose, Terry. However, this isn’t about winning and losing, not this game. This “game” is about life and death, and we preach Christ because we know Him, and because He sends us to preach Him to the entire world so that it might also win the pot and come to a true knowledge of Him and be saved.
You aren’t saved, you need to see our hand, and you need to believe; otherwise, you’ll perish in your enlightenment and opinion, which are worthless. Been there, thought it, and did it… and then He, the Creator, worthy of all worship, reached down to me and gave me His life, by the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How good is that for a hand? Life! Something worth having.
I admit I love traditional games. How is it you hold to such tradition? Is it not tradition? Would Constantine not be proud of you? Does John 8.58 prove Jesus is God? –
Come on you know better than that, don’t you???? At the most it would prove his preexistence, but to the Jewish mind does it even prove that? Does the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, prove the lamb was God? or that he literally preexisted? Is there a more vile belief than to teach Jesus is God? It is bad enough to make god’s out of wood and stone, but to turn the messiah into God, is sheer heresy of the highest order!
“Denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.” – Jude
You obviously haven’t red Jesus Christ Is God. If you wish to know more of what we believe and why, read it before you say any more. Otherwise, here is what you are guilty of and will continue to be:
“Answering before listening is both stupid and rude” (Proverbs 18:13 MSG).
Furthermore, we know Jesus Christ and what He has told us. Whom are we to believe, you or Him?
Terry also responded:
I don’t doubt your knowledge in a great many area’s, so it was surprising to me to see you espouse such heresy. ‘In’ and ‘through’ do not prove Christ is God. This is an assumption. A forcing of words to support your own predetermined view of Christ. This belief is vile. I would call it clear-cut idolatry!
What sin has blinded your eyes?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1 MKJV).
Who do you believe Jesus Christ is, Terry?
Thanks for responding
“This is my body given to you” is not to be taken literally. Nor should “the word was God” be taken literally.
“If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. The Lord comes!” (1 Corinthians 16:22 MKJV)
You didn’t answer my question, Terry. Who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
The Lord had a literal body, which He literally gave for us. Do you deny that?
Do we eat His flesh? Spiritually we do, but of course not physically, as some believed and still do.
On the other hand, “The Word was God” is not figurative at all. And you react indignantly to this because you don’t receive the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ – I’m not only talking about receiving Him in His earthly appearing 2,000 years ago, but in His earthly appearing today, in us. You are anathema to God and His saints because you don’t love His appearing.
That’s what’s behind your blasphemous reaction to Jesus Christ as Almighty God. And there’s nothing you can accomplish by trying to fight the Reality, except your own pain and suffering, as with Saul of Tarsus. In your opposition you will go and destroy yourself, unless Jesus Christ turns you in His mercy, just as He did for Saul, and just as He has done for us.
I believe Jesus is the Christ, Son of God. I suspect this answer is not enough for most Christians. They would be more happy if I said he is the Christ, God Almighty, God the Son. This however is not scriptural. There are only a very few passages that are used from the bible to attempt to show Jesus is God. 3 main passages of the NT, are in John, Philippians, and Colossians Concerning the passage in John, here is what A.E. Knoch has to say “The difficulty lies in the difference between English and Greek idiom. “was” and ‘is’ are usually omitted in Greek, unless they are used in a figurative sense. Thus “this is my body” does not mean that the bread of the communion actually is the lord’s body but represents it. As the bread stands for the Lord’s body, so the word took the place of God” I really believe we impose a non-jewish viewpoint on the scriptures. Moses was God to pharoah. The Angel of the Lord, was God to Moses (etc)
Trufully, I have trouble with Knoch’s position and other’s who even teach the pre-existence of Christ. I feel this is further imposing the Greek viewpoint on a Jewish way of thinking. The word ‘with’ in John 1.1 is para, and I think this may suggest it was not meant to be a person. Certainly Prov. 8 is often considered to be referring to Christ, but I don’t think Peter and Paul would have viewed the passage in that sense. John 1-13 may only be referring to the word or wisdom of God, and not an actual person. In verse 14 the ‘word’ or ‘wisdom’ of God becomes flesh. Much like an architects plans become flesh, and takes actual form. Is the ‘word’ a he, or an it? Nerveless, it is not possible to use this passage as a proof text to show Christ is God. This is an assumption, with no basis is the OT.
Terry wrote again:
I realize I made a mistake. It should be ‘pros’ not ‘para’
you have a great day!
What does “the Christ, the Son of God” mean to you? Do you confess Him as Lord, or is that vile to you? Do you hear His voice and follow Him, or do you consider that heresy? Did you know that the angels of God worship Him?
Hebrews 1:6-8 MKJV
(6) And again, when He brings in the First-born into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
(7) And of the angels He says, “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”
(8) But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.”
So if the Son of God is not God, why are the angels worshipping Him, and why does God call Him God, in the Old Testament yet?
But we agree that there is no such thing as “God the Son.” That is part of the diabolical trinity concept, a wicked and absurd construct of men (The Asininity of the Trinity).
Also, you are wrong about the first chapter of John. The third verse makes it clear that God is not an “it”: “All things came into being through HIM.”
Proverbs 8 speaks of wisdom, an attribute of God, but not God Himself, the Word made flesh, by WHOM (not “what”) all things were created and by WHOM all things consist. (And God is never spoken of as a “her.”)
We’ve pointed out how you strain at gnats and swallow camels, which you continue to do with “pros” and “para.” Mind you, there is nothing wrong with removing gnats, except you do it in substitution for dealing with the larger and critical issues – the very thing Jesus rebuked.
There is sin in your life, Terry, and as long as you choose to fight against us rather than confessing and repenting of it, you are playing the Devil’s advocate, destroying yourself in the process. That’s what’s happening here. You aren’t right before God, and you don’t choose to be, preferring your lusts to His salvation.
Thanks for your response.
Concerning John 1.3, even William Tyndale translated using the word ‘it’ “all things were made by it…in it was life” He also did not capitalize ‘word’ In fact I believe all english translations before the KJV, used the word “it” instead of ‘him’
In NT greek an object can be masculine, feminine or neuter. For example the word for table in German is a masculine noun. A table sure is not a person.
‘logos’ appears in other passages of John. I don’t believe the KJV capitalizes the word in the other passages, or uses ‘he’ to agree with it.
Is there anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures where the ‘word’ (Davar) is used of a person?
However my main point about John 1-14, is that it cannot be used to prove Jesus is God. Even if ‘word’ is referring to Christ, and all things were made through him, this is not evidence that he himself is God (see principle of Agency below)
My minor point is that I am not convinced ‘word’ is referring to Christ. It is very easy to impose our own cultural viewpoints upon other cultures. I am not convinced the Jewish mind would have viewed this passage as anything other than personification.
Certainly personification is not unusual in the Hebrew scriptures.
Wisdom is personified in Proverbs. 8.22-30 & word is personified in Ps. 147.15
The church father tertullian made this statement “It is the simple use of our people to say (of John 1) that the word of revelation was with God”
In the lexicon of Arndt and Gingrich they say concerning John 1.1 “Our literature shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom literature and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘word’ (of God)… this divine ‘word’ took on human form in a historical person”
In correspondence, June 13th, 1981 F.F. Bruce wrote “On the preexistence question, one can at least accept the preexistence of the eternal word or wisdom of God which (who?) became incarnate in Jesus. But whether any New Testament writer believed in his separate conscious existence as a ‘second Divine Person’ is not so clear… I am not so sure that Paul so believed.” I got this from the book ‘THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY-Christianity’s self inflicted wound’
After referring to Hebrews 1.6-8 You ask me the question “So if the Son of God is not God, why are the angels worshipping Him, and why does God call Him God?”
Here is an answer to the first part of your question from the self same book just mentioned on pages 138-139 “The solution to the puzzle is that “worship” in scripture is offered not only to God but to human persons who hold positions of dignity. The Greek verb proskuneo is used both of worship to God and doing obeisance to human persons. Thus, for example, the king of Israelis worshipped in association with God (1 Chron. 29:20, KJV; the word is proskuneo in the LXX). Daniel was worshipped (Dan. 2:46). The saints are worshipped (Rev. 3:9, KJV). Jesus is worshipped as Messiah, but only one person, the Father, is worthy of worship as God. It is highly significant that another Greek word, Latreuo, which is used of religious service only, is applied in all of its 21 occurrences exclusively to the Father in the New Testament”
I have not finished this article yet, but wanted to send you what I have written. I have been busy lately, and I use the internet cafe, so it makes it more difficult.
Terry, God made His appearance to mankind as the Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah. He proved He was God in that only God has power over death. He raised Himself from the dead and holds the keys of death and Hell.
“Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.’ Then the Jews said, ‘This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?’ But He spoke of the temple of His body” (John 2:19-21 MKJV).
“And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, ‘Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death’” (Revelation 1:17-18 MKJV).
We called on His Name for salvation, and He raised us from the dead, identifying Himself to us personally and individually as Jesus Christ and as our Lord, even as He did with Saul of Tarsus. Saul immediately obeyed Him when stopped in his tracks and proceeded to do the very opposite – preaching Christ instead of opposing and persecuting Him in His followers.
We find Him throughout all the Scriptures, which have been miraculously illumined to us since He revealed Himself to, and redeemed, us. Until that time, the Bible was a dead and unwanted book. Now He feeds us, provides for us, teaches us, strengthens us, and gives us sure hope, day after day in all matters.
We know Him, are born of His Spirit, having had our lives transformed. We know of nobody more worthy of the highest of worship than He. As He said, He is the Light of men, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Bread of Life, the Water of Life, and Life itself. And God hasn’t rebuked us for worshipping Him, unlike you, a mere carnal mortal; indeed, He has blessed us more and more as each day, year, and decade passed.
1 Corinthians 2:9-16 MKJV
(9) But as it is written, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,” nor has it entered into the heart of man, “the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
(10) But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(11) For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
His gift of faith to us has born precious fruit, both for us and several others, even as it did for Noah, Abraham and Sarah, Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, Job, Daniel, and so many others. If we are wrong, then it is the right thing to be, and we gladly continue in the way He has opened to us.
There was a time when we thought we were right, and as we look back on those days with their fruits, we shake our heads in dismay at how we were, lost and languishing. Now we bow our heads in praise and worship for how blessed we are, knowing full well that He has done these things for us.
We could no more have done for ourselves what has been done than sprout wings and fly to the moon. All glory and praise to the Lord of lords, King of kings, and God our One and Only Savior.
Isaiah 45:21-23 MKJV
(21) Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.
(22) Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
(23) I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Terry, I say, “Amen,” to Victor’s letter, in complete agreement by the Spirit of the Lord.
There is one portion of your research to which I will further respond, since it brings up some interesting Scriptures you misinterpret to your detriment.
“The solution to the puzzle is that ‘worship’ in scripture is offered not only to God but to human persons who hold positions of dignity. The Greek verb proskuneo is used both of worship to God and doing obeisance to human persons. Thus, for example, the king of Israel is worshipped in association with God (1 Chron. 29:20, KJV; the word is proskuneo in the LXX). Daniel was worshipped (Dan. 2:46). The saints are worshipped (Rev. 3:9, KJV). Jesus is worshipped as Messiah, but only one person, the Father, is worthy of worship as God. It is highly significant that another Greek word, Latreuo, which is used of religious service only, is applied in all of its 21 occurrences exclusively to the Father in the New Testament.”
We see how David, a man, is honored by Israel, when they are instructed by him to bless the Lord:
“And David said to all the congregation: ‘Now bless the LORD your God.’ And all the congregation blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and prostrated themselves before the LORD, and before the king” (1 Chronicles 29:20 JPS).
That honor is obviously linked to David’s relationship and service to God, as we see in the second example of Daniel:
“Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshiped Daniel, and he commanded to offer an offering and incense to him. The king answered Daniel and said, ‘It is true that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret‘” (Daniel 2:46-47 MKJV).
Now the question you raise is whether the honor and worship given to Jesus Christ is the same as what was given to Daniel, or is He the “God of gods” and “Lord of kings” Who receives the worship of God?
Jesus Christ is Lord of lords:
Revelation 19:11-16 EMTV
(11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He Who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, having names written, and a name written that no one knows except Himself.
(13) And He is clothed in a robe having been dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God.
(14) And the armies in heaven were following Him on white horses, having been dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
(15) And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp double-edged sword, so that with it He might strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron rod. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the wrath of Almighty God.
(16) And He has on His robe and on His thigh a Name having been written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
“These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones” (Revelation 17:14 MKJV).
And no doubt, it is because we are with Him that men will come and worship at our feet:
“Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you” (Revelation 3:9 MKJV).
The conclusion of the matter: Honor given to men of God comes only when there is recognition and worship of God Himself, King of kings, the Lord Jesus Christ. This explains why you have yet to come and worship at our feet; you have yet to worship the Lord Jesus Christ. Your declaration that you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, means nothing. Devils also believe this. You plainly don’t believe Him or receive His coming in the flesh in His saints, which is the proof of true faith at work (2 John).
Your Bible interpreter gets it wrong about the Greek word for serving God applying only to the Father. Here are two occasions where it plainly shows the Father and the Son are One and the same God, singular, Who is served by His servants that know and love Him:
“And every curse will no longer be; but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve [latreuo] Him” (Revelation 22:3 MKJV).
Revelation 7:15-17 MKJV
(15) Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve [latreuo] Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
(16) They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
(17) For the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.
You are fighting a losing battle trying to deny the Truth, Terry, but if you get real with us about your spiritual condition and lack of victory over sin, we may be able to help you, Lord willing.