Correspondence With Latter Rain Group
Sara Schmidt posted on the “Latter Rain” Forum and shared The Path of Truth with several there who wrote back. Here are some responses:
I was surprised to see an email addressed to me with the same web address as listed below in your correspondence especially since I did not subscribe.
I was even more shocked to read what appeared to be two men who write as if they are the Only two men who receive revelation from the L_RD.
As I recall, in the last days, all will have knowledge of and from Him in one form or another…Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17.
In His Service,
Victor wrote to Jo:
Do you look around and see that all have that knowledge, as you interpret Joel’s prophecy to mean? Do you have the knowledge we and others do? Do we have it as you do? If so, why are you “shocked” by what we say? Is one with the knowledge of God so easily shocked? Can you give us some substance to support your criticisms? A Scripture for you:
“The fear of the Lord is the start of knowledge: but the foolish have no use for wisdom and teaching” (Proverbs 1:7 BBE).
Sara, I agree with Jo. The two men in the link you sent me speak on cults and yet they are promoting one. Their own. They regard themselves as having authority beyond what is written in scripture. In that they appear to be saying the scriptures is not the final authority.
They believe they have revelation in addition to the scripture. (Adding to the written word.) They also, speak in direct contradiction to the scriptures stating that hell is not eternal. (Taking away from scripture.) They equate their authority to Moses and Jesus. Who were the bearers of the covenants. This is like saying that the Covenant of God is not complete. Any one who properly understands the scriptures know there can never be another Moses or Jesus.
Moses brought the first covenant which was imperfect and a shadow representation of the one who was to come to perfect it by fulfilling it and thereby making the covenant new. The one is Jesus. In your link they attack CRI by paralleling their authority to that of Moses and Jesus and infer Jesus loosely interpreted the scripture for convenience. My advice to you is to run!
Victor wrote to Gene:
There are two problems with your perspective on this subject, Gene:
One, you haven’t red carefully and responsibly what’s been written. You are assuming and presuming. Read again, and then again, so that there will be some indication of recognition and comprehension before you speak again. Not that you can understand with the carnal mind, that being at enmity with God. That is what you are trying to do, therefore shooting before seeing and knowing.
Two, once you do read carefully, you will find that you are not disagreeing with us but with what we have simply taken from the Scriptures and from the example of the Lord and His disciples as recorded in Scripture. You give no substance for your stance, only opinion and negative criticism. That is not God; that is Satan. Before you condemn us as a cult and as charlatans, know that what you do is sure and just. Otherwise, you are walking on dangerous ground. Blasphemy is not a light matter, I assure you. You do not know that.
Obviously, you are not familiar with Jesus Christ at all, seeing you put Him on a par with Moses. He created Moses. He is Lord of the house in which Moses served Him. You would not accuse us of putting ourselves on a par or deeming ourselves greater than our Lord if you did any responsible examination of our writings and testimonies.
“Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all his house. For He was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, because he who has built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. And Moses truly was faithful in all His house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken afterward” (Hebrews 3:1-5 MKJV).
As to our equality with Moses, we are greater than Moses, yes, greater. Jesus Christ Himself said so. Argue with Him about it, if you will. Of John the Baptist, Jesus said that of all men born of women, John was the greatest, and that he was more than a prophet. I would say that therefore He was at least as great as Moses, if not greater, according to the Lord’s description. Truly, John was the one ordained to “clear the path” and introduce none other than God Himself to Israel, no small calling. Yet, Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John. Even if we are the least, we are therefore greater than Moses. These are things you could not possibly know, evidenced by the way you speak.
“But why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it has been said, See, I send My servant before your face, who will make ready your way before you. Truly I say to you, Among the sons of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist: but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he” (Matthew 11:9-11 BBE).
A Scripture for you:
“To give an answer before hearing is a foolish thing and a cause of shame” (Proverbs 18:13 BBE).
Hi Sara, God bless you sis;
Hi Jo, Gene and everyone,
Truly sorry Sara that I missed you back on the busy 25th…timing is good for this now since I am freer to reply.
That was a long article but very interesting. I get the jist that the writers are saying our definition of cult must be broader, including the denominations and those fellowships with other labels, where cultish practices are clearly identifiable. It is a brave point and one that I lean towards: but always remembering that individual fellowships large and small may at any point repent of the man-made evils and start to worship in Spirit and in Truth.
I also uphold what is said about the money element. The callings of God are not the same as applying for Bible college and being recognized as a minister by written qualifications and congregations of men, and held in their pay. Where God calls, He equips, He empowers and He sends; and His teaching and schooling is in the Spirit. If God is sending, why do we need to cover ourselves with the pay of man?
Need however to be considerate particularly at this time when we are seeing many coming out of the denominations in search of a truer worship and expression of Christ, and others of course working hard for the same from within. Man, it hurts though, to leave the ones we love, and especially to leave them when their eyes are closed to the cultish doctrine they may be sitting under. I speak from experience: my very first long-term fellowship ended with many tears and pain. The realization that there were cultish elements firmly in place there dawned upon me some time later.
The article raised some excellent points for discussion, like those listed which would identify a cult. I thought maybe we could take one or two up and see where we go with it.
I would also enjoy exploring with you that matter of taking the formal route of study as opposed to following the leading of God. There is a time-consuming danger in the former which can tempt us down the route of the flesh to miss our true calling. Lots of issues we need to discuss here together.
Get back to us when you can.
Love from Mary
Victor wrote to Mary:
Mary, you have been given some understanding. What you need to know is that when you take a firm stand in the Lord, no amount of “love” and “understanding” is going to appease or win others to God. Search the Scriptures and you will find no such examples. Consider, for example, Stephen’s last words to the Sanhedrin. Consider Peter’s words and approach to Ananias and Sapphira. Consider Paul’s approach with Elymas. As surely as the Lord lives, those called to truth and fellowship with the Father are drawn to the Son, even as Saul was drawn on the road to Damascus. It was not by politics, or gentleness and diplomacy, nor by the expertise and cunning of man, but by the Spirit of the Lord.
There is only one reason that we try to “love” and “diplomate” people into the Kingdom. We are seeking their favor. We are seeking their favor, presuming then to have the opportunity to persuade them to favor God. It doesn’t work that way, except for proselytes, false converts in the Name of Christ. Nowhere will you find that approach or work in Holy Scripture. You will find that philosophy only in “man’s scripture.” The Lord, by Gene, will show you exactly how and why.
You are right when you say: “Also like you said earlier, those of us who want to serve the Lord wholeheartedly will end up outcasts, because to follow the Lord is not to follow the crowd.” Head directly outside the camp, and do not linger nor look back. It is disastrous to do so.
A Scripture for you:
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:2).
Mary wrote to Sara in another letter later:
I stand by what I said. There is this contending spirit and I will not be part of it.
You are welcome to continue to dialogue with us. It would be much better if you would stay long enough to do that freely on your own, without needing to refer to any of the articles or the guys on your site, or have them answer for you. I am interested in knowing Sara who is our sister in the Lord, but she is hard to reach with all the other spirits trying to get our attention. Hope you stay around
Much love from Mary
Mary, Paul here, one of the “contentious” spirits.
Yes, contentious, but in the true and godly way, as Jude exhorted the saints to be, contending for the faith once delivered to the fathers. What you have here is a mutual admiration society of the flesh, perishing in your sins as each of you waxes religious as the stalwart saints you think to be in your minds. None of you are serving Christ in truth, which is why we have spoken up here.
You ask Sara to speak for herself, whereas she has already, and you have nothing to say in return. You have not spoken one substantive word to anything she brought up to you, not in doctrine alone, but from her life, as given in Christ, sharing intimately with you, and you despise it. Liar! You do not hope she stays around and you certainly have no love of God. Your love is of the flesh, satanic, shunning the cross and identification with the Lord Jesus Christ.
You can hide in your dark little corners, trying to keep out the Light, but God sees you, and He is finished winking at the games you play in His Name. You are taking His Name in vain, and are not held guiltless.
Victor wrote to Mary:
Mary, for someone who tries to come across as one who loves, your toots belie your fruits. For example, while you try to wax spiritual, loving and “Christlike,” you have yet, as Paul has said, to give substance in your replies to us. Instead, you condemn us as of the devil, of the enemies of Christ. Now there’s love backed with fruits! You are all about form and appearance. Just who is serving the prince of darkness in the precious Name of the Lord Jesus Christ?
For another example, you say you “never even thought that Paul might be hurting.” Would true love not be aware, or at least think of it? On the other hand, if Paul is hurting, it would not occur to you that it is because the Lord is hurting for His people, and Paul is in identification with the Lord, suffering the contradiction of sinners such as yourself that the Lord suffered, and promised that we would suffer in walking in the light as He is in the light.
Jesus is “unspeakably fab?” The One of Whom we testify is no fable, but we surely tell you that the one of whom you testify certainly is. You people go with your “lol’s” as though these are light games we are playing. You speak irreverently; you are a flatterer, a “vain and light person” (Judges 9:4), serving “another Jesus,” and not the Lord of lords, Who laid His life down for you. You are an attention-seeking phony, a man pleaser, preferring man’s praise to God’s, and therefore antiChrist in all your ways. Do you really believe that God approves of your hypocritical ways? We are here to tell you otherwise, to “cry aloud, not sparing, telling the people their sins and transgressions.” He is not mocked, Mary.
Continue in your display of wisdom and spirituality, denying the Lord, condemning those He sends for your good, yet in vain worshiping Him with your lips, but know this: those who have eyes to see do see you; in Heaven, you are not among the righteous. You are without the City of God, with the fornicators and the dogs. You are fooling your companions of darkness, but you cannot fool the children of light or the Father of lights. Woe to you, generation of vipers, hypocrites, treacherous persons. Sodom and Gomorrah will not be more greatly judged than yourselves. God offers you good, nutritious, wholesome, organic food but you prefer a diet of McDonald’s burgers, fries and shakes. You prefer candyfloss in your vanity fairs, while the Lord offers you substantial, medicinal food to nourish and heal you of your putrid sores and fevers. Condemn these “unloving” words as rantings of the devil too:
“You claim to be rich and successful and to have everything you need. But you don’t know how bad off you are. You are pitiful, poor, blind, and naked” (Revelation 3:17 CEV).
You need to repent, big time.
Contending earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints, misrepresented by those who claim to, but do not, know Him,
Another correspondent, Tim, wrote to Paul, and the following correspondence ensued:
Much love to you in Jesus, brother. I understand where you are coming from and how people ‘socially condition’ each other and how eventually you tire of wanting to say things in a way which never unsettles people.
I believe you are right in seeing that, but I would suggest that it needs moderation too.
I have had a lot of experience of this sort of thing, because my girlfriend has Asperger’s Syndrome and she is simply unable to say things in socially acceptable ways. I have put up with what is abuse for years. It is true that when we always only ever say things in socially acceptable ways we create lukewarmness, but witout any moderation at all it is like being continually beaten up. Sure it’s Christian to be able to take it, but it doesn’t feel like love to have to endure it continually.
It’s the dilemma we face today and the problem is human nature. The gospel is about full holiness, sacrifical love and the willingness to say what people don’t want to hear and yes, I believe everyone will be saved eventually too. Where you are going wrong, I would suggest is your belief that by wielding the word as a weapon you will bring about the necessary correction.
It’s going to happen and the effect of it will be to alienate us from each other. You will end up like I feel, which is that I don’t want to spent time with either people in the world or Christians. I just put up with them in love, because I know the Bible teaches tough stuff and I know we are moderating it, but I also know the reason God put us in the flesh is that he made us imperfect as the
means by which we learn.
The way I now feel is I just want to listen to God. I have put up with hours and hours where people just try to show me how right they are and how wrong I am. In truth I don’t care what people believe. I don’t care whether they are Moslems or Buddhists or Christians. I kind of believe he’s going to show we are all as bad as one another anyway. The way I see it is that it’s all circumstantial. Talk is talk. It goes on and on and on and eventually it just does your head in and makes you insane.
The promise I like is that the day is coming when no-one will need to be taught about God, because everyone will know him, from the least to the greatest. And that’s why God sent his Spirit, I believe and why he is teaching us helplessness.
None of us can do anything except show sacrifical love really and unfortunately the very thing we would most like to avoid is the very thing that God would probably really like us to do. Its like we would say ‘anything but thuis’ and God says ‘that’s what you have to do’. he corners us and he forces us against a wall because he wants us to confront ourselves. It hurts, brother, I know, it hurts,
Blessings and love,
Greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ, Tim,
Thank you for your letter. I believe you mean well, though you are misguided in what you suppose you know about me. I am not the least bit disturbed, inhibited, or tired of trying to be socially acceptable to people. That’s because I’m not trying to be socially acceptable. Quite the opposite, I am zealous and desirous of speaking the truth with all boldness, at whatever cost! The Lord has delivered me from sin and the fear of man to serve Him in holiness, all praise be to Him! It is not only His will to do that for His children, but His pleasure. He can and does bring His children to a place where things are made clear, because we know Him. We are not meant to dwell in the flesh and imperfection, as you complain of your lot, but to be perfect, even as our heavenly Father is perfect. This you must know and believe, if you are to be His and receive what is not only possible, but absolutely necessary.
The simple fact is that I could not be a servant of God, as I am called to be, if I were a man pleaser, as you suggest. Paul the apostle was quite bold and blunt about this:
“As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed. For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ” (Galatians 1:9-10 MKJV).
Would you have said that Paul was acting out of the frustration of “trying to be Christian” when he called one accursed, or another the child of the devil, as he did with Elymas?
Anyone that will follow the Lord cannot be a man pleaser. How about John the Immerser? Did he agonize over social acceptability? How well would your group receive him, and his words?
“But seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said to them, O generation of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance; and do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And now also, the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire” (Matthew 3:7-10 MKJV).
Obviously we are not advocating speaking from the flesh. We (I speak of the three of us, myself, Sara, and Victor) have not said one thing that has been untruthful or ungodly to anyone in your group. On the contrary, we have told you true, needful, and good things, to which we have not heard one word in reply to dispute the substance of what we have told you. Not one. We are still waiting, though not holding our breath.
You do admit, however, that we must be prepared to say what people do not want to hear, but go on to contradict that by saying we should not be wielding the Word as a weapon. That is exactly what someone will say that rejects the hard Word that is spoken to them! What else will they say…“You are right! How enlightened and true is the precious Word you have spoken, brother! But at this time I cannot receive it, so go in peace, and be blessed for your faithfulness to God”? No! They will say such things as, “You should not be using the Word as a weapon! Where is your love, brother?”
Yet, get this: The Word instructs to use the Word as a weapon, the very opposite of what you are advising us! Here it is:
“This is no afternoon athletic contest that we’ll walk away from and forget about in a couple of hours. This is for keeps, a life-or-death fight to the finish against the Devil and all his angels. Be prepared. You’re up against far more than you can handle on your own. Take all the help you can get, every weapon God has issued, so that when it’s all over but the shouting you’ll still be on your feet. Truth, righteousness, peace, faith, and salvation are more than words. Learn how to apply them. You’ll need them throughout your life. God’s Word is an indispensable weapon” (Ephesians 6:12-17 MSG).
God Himself says that His Word is as fire, and a hammer, and is the sword of His mouth. Yes, we do bring the sword, and make no apologies for it. We are with the Lord, and He with us:
“Repent! But if not I will come to you quickly, and will fight with them by the sword of My mouth” (Revelation 2:16 MKJV).
Rather than argue and fight against our Words, why not repent, and be made right with God? You seem to equate your girlfriend’s behavior, which you admit is due to illness, with godly counsel and correction. You bundle it all together and say that it is Christian “to take it, but it doesn’t feel like love to have to endure it continually.”
Must one endure continually the ungodly outbursts of others? As for correction from God and from the servants of God, if you are being confronted on your sins, is not the onus on you to repent rather than complain against the process? The Scriptures say this:
“Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it. Because of this, straighten up the hands which hang down and the enfeebled knees. And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, but let it rather be healed” (Hebrews 12:11-13 MKJV).
Yes, you can be “turned out of the way.” God is no fool, and He will not go on and on, if He is dealing with you. While He is longsuffering, He does not tolerate rejection of His correction forever. “Wisdom cries aloud in the street”:
“Simpletons! How long will you wallow in ignorance? Cynics! How long will you feed your cynicism? Idiots! How long will you refuse to learn? About face! I can revise your life. Look, I’m ready to pour out my spirit on you; I’m ready to tell you all I know. As it is, I’ve called, but you’ve turned a deaf ear; I’ve reached out to you, but you’ve ignored me. “Since you laugh at my counsel and make a joke of my advice, How can I take you seriously? I’ll turn the tables and joke about your troubles! What if the roof falls in, and your whole life goes to pieces? What if catastrophe strikes and there’s nothing to show for your life but rubble and ashes? You’ll need me then. You’ll call for me, but don’t expect an answer. No matter how hard you look, you won’t find me. “Because you hated Knowledge and had nothing to do with the Fear-of-GOD, Because you wouldn’t take my advice and brushed aside all my offers to train you, Well, you’ve made your bed–now lie in it; you wanted your own way–now, how do you like it? Don’t you see what happens, you simpletons, you idiots? Carelessness kills; complacency is murder. First pay attention to me, and then relax. Now you can take it easy–you’re in good hands” (Proverbs 1:22-33 MSG).
(If you have a problem with Peterson’s contemporary language, try several translations. They say basically the same thing.)
We are counselled to wipe the dust from our feet in those places that reject the Word we preach, and among the brethren:
“After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy, knowing that he who is such has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned” (Titus 3:10-11 MKJV).
Listen to me, Tim, I am willing to see you made right with God, and am speaking for your sake. You say these words, which are quite revealing of where you are:
“The way I now feel is I just want to listen to God. I have put up with hours and hours where people just try to show me how right they are and how wrong I am. In truth I don’t care what people believe. I don’t care whether they are Moslems or Buddhists or Christians. I kind of believe he’s going to show we are all as bad as one another anyway. The way I see it is that it’s all circumstantial. Talk is talk. It goes on and on and on and eventually it just does your head in and makes you insane.”
You don’t care whether people are Moslems, Buddhists, or Christians, because by and large, they are all the same in your experience. None of those you know, professing Christ, know and follow Him. They are no different than Buddhists or Muslims, except they are worse inasmuch as they confess the only Name whereby men must be saved, but do so in vain, following the teachings of men and leadings of their flesh. I agree that you are all just talking in circles, going nowhere, not being built on the only Foundation and Cornerstone of the Temple made without hands. Yes, it not only makes you insane, but is insane, because denying Sanity Himself.
If your words are not idle ones, that you are prepared to listen to God, then you will gladly hear what we say, because God has sent us for that purpose:
“And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!’” (Romans 10:15 MKJV)
You also write:
“None of us can do anything except show sacrifical love really and unfortunately the very thing we would most like to avoid is the very thing that God would probably really like us to do. Its like we would say ‘anything but thuis’ and God says ‘that’s what you have to do’. he corners us and he forces us against a wall because he wants us to confront ourselves.”
Firstly, you cannot show sacrificial love until you are born from above, and have taken up the cross, which you rightly say is the very thing you are prepared to avoid. Know therefore that the love you are showing is selfish, unclean, and unacceptable. Secondly, you are presently faced with the situation of avoiding what God would have you do, because you do not wish to receive us as Christ, whom God has sent to speak the truth to you. You are not willing to let go of your own godhood, as miserable as you know it to be. You are up against the wall, and God does it for your good. What will you do?
Some letters that would be helpful to read are:
Many other things on our site could also be helpful, if your heart is turned to the Lord to receive instruction. It would be His sheer mercy to grant you that. All of us have needed it, and those who know and confess their wrongness are those whom He has so blessed.
Thankful to know Him and free to speak the truth that makes free,
Tim wrote back:
Thanks for writing back and I’m very sorry of I misrepresented where you are at in any way.
The problem with using the word of God as a sword in purely an aggressive way is that it will only get you so far. Initially you will attract people to you and they will respect your zeal, but eventually you will end up fighting them too and they will end up fighting you also. If they are with you they will recognise the need for one body and they will know you are true when you will support them in need not in word.
There has to be a balance, my friend. Sometimes we need to say tough things and at other times we need to be very gentle.
When we consider the Old Testament the Old Testament prophets did very much what you are now doing and it was God’s will that they did that. But it never accomplished much and we should learn from their experience.
Have you ever considered the idea that God’s purpose might be progressive and that we should maybe learn from those who have gone before?? When a person gets more and more aggressive what happens eventually is that they become objectionable to all, but instead of recognising that they start to believe that they are becoming persecuted.
God uses that to train us and what he normally does is that he throws us into the wilderness until we learn. When Moses thought he was ready God sent him into Midian. When Joseph though he was ready he was thrown into prison. Sometimes we tend to think it was just Josephs brothers who had to learn, but it wasn’t. It was Joseph too.
The more aggressive you get the stronger prison you will find yourself in. My poor friend has found herself in a prison with very, very strong walls and its curing her of an illness which people believe is impossible to cure. Right now you probably haven’t got the ability to be gentle and my advice is keep it up because the harder you fight that way the more powerfully you will understand.
The real problem is that we have reactive natures. You are going flat out in one direction and when the reversal comes it will be very painful. When you have gone through that give me an email if you want some friendly, non-judgmental friendship.
I really don’t want to join in the civil war that much of the church is going to go through. We probably can’t do anything brother except listen to God. Gentleness now is the trick to draw the world to us, because as the world and world gets more and more adverse it becomes like Josephs brother’s – it begins to realise why.
I think your motives are true too brother, much love and blessings,
Paul answered Tim again:
Tim, how can you be sorry for misrepresenting me in your last letter when your current letter is nothing but misrepresentation as well? You are like a man who libels someone, apologizes, and no sooner than the words are out of his mouth he does it again. You do it even during your apology. You apology is entirely insincere and not worth a warm bucket of spit.
Am I evilly aggressive when I merely describe what you do and what you are like? You should be thankful that I am willing and able to speak the truth to you, and that God has made me aggressive in that manner. As I said in the last letter, when confronted on your evils and errors you should repent instead of complain. Are you not evilly aggressive in your denial of truth?
I understand that you’re trying to give me the benefit of your experience as a religious person in what you perceive to be happening here. The problem is, your experience is all flesh, and you perceive nothing of the spirit, as I pointed out in my last letter. You cannot tell the difference between what a sick woman does, and what a man of God does. I am not saying this in anger or frustration, but as hard, on the ground, fact. But you do not believe.
To prove this, (though without eyes or ears, how can you see or hear?) all one needs do is listen to you as you speak on in great darkness and foolishness, blaspheming God and acting as if you are giving us the most advanced wisdom available. You say of God’s prophets, those whom He sent in “Old Testament” times, that while they did His will, they were failures! In other words, it really doesn’t matter that God sent them, and gave them the words to speak, which is what qualifies them as His prophets, but what matters is how you perceive what they accomplished, or didn’t. Yours is the basis for all judgment!
Yes we are to judge, but righteously, and not by sight, as you do here. Do you really think that God sends His servants on fool’s errands? Were these men doing their own bidding in His Name, as you and your peers do, or were they speaking as moved by the Spirit of God (2 Peter 1:21)? According to how you behave, and speak, it is the former. But we know it is the latter. We know that they did not speak or die in vain, but to great profit for all, as God meant it to be.
“By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts. And by it he, being dead, yet speaks” (Hebrews 11:4 MKJV).
“And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah; also David, and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the strangers” (Hebrews 11:32-34 MKJV).
But according to you, they didn’t accomplish much and we are expected to do better by learning from their “mistakes.” The last of these poor mistaken prophets, John the Immerser, whom according to Jesus was the greatest, was surely (I continue to speak according to your foolishness) too hard, and should not have corrected Herod, who had John’s head removed. We can do better than John by learning from his lack of judgment and mistakes by compromising with the world as you do in your progressive gentleness.
Yes, you cannot rebuke the world, because you are one with it. You draw it to yourself as naturally as a duck takes to water. But we can judge it, particularly in those who falsely claim to be the Lord’s, because we are not of the world, but are in Him, and speak as He does by His grace, as did our brethren the prophets and apostles. We are the love of God in Christ expressed to all, but because you love yourselves and darkness more than Light, you despise Him when He exposes you.
Jesus Christ has spoken and verified what value and purpose there has been in the works of His prophets and apostles, towards such as you that scoff at and resist His correction:
“Therefore the wisdom of God also said, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation” (Luke 11:49-50 MKJV).
God has made you responsible for their blood. You have become blood guilty and are judged by what you have done to the Lord and His brethren. Presently that means nothing to you. Someday though, you will repent, and will be very sorry, seeing for the first time Him Whom you have pierced, and you will no longer blaspheme or condemn Him, but will condemn yourself, in dust and ashes.
Mary’s response to Paul’s letter to Tim to her group:
I received this morning a copy of a private letter to Tim, in which his humbly offered apology was described as being worth no more than a “warm bucket of spit”. If we need any more proof that these are demonically manipulated time-wasters with whom we should not dialogue, it is there. I honestly feel that the contending itself is demonic, because in me I feel this tendency to rise up and defend…the truth, goodness, our brothers and sisters etc. Of course that is just what it wants us to do, and the dialogue goes on and on. We have too much to do to be tangling with this. I had hoped that “Sara” (if she truly exists) would at least begin to fellowship and gain the advantage of the truth we can all offer in love, but more and more I am thinking that this is Paul or Victor in disguise, deceiving us by using the membership. So I have taken the decision to ban “her”. Unfortunately it will not entirely stop the correspondence that we get since they have some of our emails.
We have been praying for these folk. I feel the protection from that process, knowing that we are abiding under the shadow of the Almighty. I know we are not alone. There are few I have met that seem to be so immune to the appeals of God to return to Him in simplicity….I am wondering what it will take to see them delivered. An eye transplant maybe. But with God, all things are possible. We can content ourselves that we have done what the Lord would want us to do, and draw this to a proper close as He permits.
Much love from Mary
Mary writes to Paul:
But Paul, you ARE a man-pleaser: you utterly please yourself what you do, and your inflated sense of self importance leads you to believe you are qualified to judge and to counsel others. Your words to Tim “Listen to me”….listen to ME… it says it all: that is what you want because you want to lord it over the flock of God.
I am not going to argue with you so spare your breath. You have no love in you, only hatred and venom. You are trying to pretend that it is because you care about our brother that you speak to him and the others in this way! You have no intention of going the distance with any of us; no intention of getting to know us, bearing our burdens, loving us, learning from us as we should be learning from you. You should know that if any is overtaken in a fault, those who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of meekness, watching themselves lest they also be tempted. Meekness is utterly alien to you, and you think you are sent to us by God.
You fail to see that words are not the whole issue, but the spirit, and yours is very openly and obviously hostile among these dear and gentle ones. You want to contend with us and break us and then push your articles and your website at us. This is not the Holy Spirit that speaks and acts this way, but a lunatic whose head is so large it obscures the honest view of anything good. I have had enough of your abuse of others on here. I see no spiritual fruit in you yet. Perhaps when you show that you can listen and care about others in a Godly way I may reconsider, but you will have to do some repenting yourself first.
Victor replied to Mary:
Mary, why can you not address the issues Paul has raised, not only with Tim but also with the others? You speak up for each one of them, but have nothing substantive to say. You write to your captives, signing off with “Much love” but there is no love there. You flatter and caress for your own sake, stroking their egos to gain their allegiance to you, and not to the Lord Jesus Christ. You are a usurper, Mary, of God’s glory, because you do these things in His Name. You are a harlot, charging your clients their souls for your services. And what do you offer but a “feel good” mentality, and they love to have it so? Woe to you. You cannot and will not escape. Your time is fulfilled. Of you and those with you, such as you, is it written:
“And the women prophets–son of man, take your stand against the women prophets who make up stuff out of their own minds. Oppose them. Say ‘Doom’ to the women who sew magic bracelets and head scarves to suit every taste, devices to trap souls.
Say, ‘Will you kill the souls of My people, use living souls to make yourselves rich and popular? You have profaned Me among my people just to get ahead yourselves, used Me to make yourselves look good–killing souls who should never have died and coddling souls who shouldn’t live. You’ve lied to people who love listening to lies.’
“Therefore GOD says, ‘I am against all the devices and techniques you use to hunt down souls. I’ll rip them out of your hands. I’ll free the souls you’re trying to catch. I’ll rip your magic bracelets and scarves to shreds and deliver My people from your influence so they’ll no longer be victimized by you. That’s how you’ll come to realize that I am GOD. “‘Because you’ve confounded and confused good people, unsuspecting and innocent people, with your lies, and because you’ve made it easy for others to persist in evil so that it wouldn’t even dawn on them to turn to Me so I could save them, as of now you’re finished. No more delusion-mongering from you, no more sermonic lies. I’m going to rescue My people from your clutches. And you’ll realize that I am GOD'” (Ezekiel 13:17-23 MSG).
Victor replied to other letters Mary wrote to Sara and the group:
Again and again, Mary, you expose yourself for what you really are. How about posting publicly this, your letter, to her? Sara is not presuming to be “usurping authority over the man.” She is simply bearing witness to what the Lord has done in her life. The silence of women in the church is not a matter of silence unqualified; it is a matter of silence in terms of presuming authority of any man. We think Sara is addressing a woman when she speaks to you.
Why do you fault Sara for doing so? I will tell you why. You are usurping authority over Tim, Benjamin and others. You presume to be teaching men. Sara is not doing that, and even as she speaks (to Benjamin, for example), she is doing so with our eldership approval, and not in a teaching, authoritative position with men. She is not out of line with the righteous, but with the ungodly. You accuse her of the very thing of which you are so perfectly guilty yourself. But above all, Sara has something true to say regardless of whether we approve or not. You would do well to heed what she has to say. She has nothing to gain from listening to you but evil and confusion. That goes for anyone listening to you. You have nothing but a defence of your posture, no substance, no authority, no goodness, and least of all the love you profess to have. Your reasonings are unreasonable and contrary to God. The greater sin is that you do it in His Name. You are false altogether, Mary. The “jig is up.”
As for “answering kindly letters,” we answer in true kindness, a sober reverence for truth. We are not playing games. This is not a “feel good,” make-believe matter for us. We are in all earnestness in the Lord, having His Spirit. You are all playing games, pretentious, presumptuous, and false. You counterfeit that which is good and we are here, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord of lords, to put an end to it. You are a spiritual fornicator, teaching others to commit fornication. We are those expressing true kindness by exposing your falsehood. In repenting, good things would come to you.
You expect us to honor your counterfeit, hypocritical kindnesses. If we were to do so, we would be traitors to Christ Jesus, Who bought us with His blood. How horrible a thought! God forbid that we should in any way acknowledge your evil works and influence on others. Jezebel, you are finished, and you know it. How long did you think you could get away with your foolishness and mockery? You say that God is not a liar. How true! How is it then that you presume to confess Him falsely? Since when did the One Who does not lie accept the persons of liars?
Contending earnestly for that genuine faith once delivered to the saints, and thankful to be able to do so, for His sake,
Victor, how dare you presume to speak for Sara? In Christ, as you should know, there is no male or female.
Victor answered Mary’s complaint:
As I said, you expose your spiritual nakedness again and again. The same man who said, “In Christ there is neither male nor female, slave or free, Greek or Jew,” is also the man who said “Let the women be silent in the churches,” and “I suffer not a woman to teach or to usurp authority over the man.” That was the apostle Paul who wrote these truths, which now make up the Word of God without contradiction. Therefore, it is obvious that Paul meant something quite otherwise than what you are trying to make of his words in your wicked stance. Satan ever twists the Scriptures, denying that Jesus Christ is Lord.
That is how I dare to speak, and Sara gladly receives it, being the Lord’s. Why do you not receive it? How is it you love your sins so much, Mary? Are you also unfamiliar with the rock-solid warning of Scripture that sin brings death? Jesus called on all to repent, as did all His disciples after Him. However, it is quite evident that you have no heart for righteousness and truth. Like I said, Mary, you are undone.
In the Glorious Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Whose shed blood has washed away our sins,
Mary, and all others who are yet involved in, and affected by, these matters, do listen up,
You are trying so hard to maintain your influence and the position you perceive yourself to have. Where is it getting you? However, as we have seen, by Scripture and by your fruits, that you are altogether a false prophetess, without true power, who by stealth and desperation resorts to false flatteries, ego-stroking, errant Bible quoting, and anything else you deem profitable to keep what you think you to have, but which you do not. You have nothing.
You avoid the serious charges and solid points made by Sara, myself, and Victor. You offer up a smorgasbord of psychobabble, but the upshot of it all is this: You are an enemy of the cross of Christ. You serve yourself and hate Him, passionately so. You hate His Law, which is Him. He says that a woman shall not usurp authority over the man, but you know better, and insist on your way.
Where is your husband right now? How long ago did you castrate him? Where are Tim and Ben in this conversation? Not that we need to hear from them, because they, like you, have nothing of value to say. They may as well let you say it for them.
People, you are sinning against God and blaspheming horribly. We only have described to you your ways in the sight of God. You mock us, and Him. I would to God that you were rather pricked in your hearts, and repentant, but if you must be hardened and destroyed in your sins, so be it. I welcome His judgment.
“He is the Rock; His work is perfect. For all His ways are just, a God of faithfulness, and without evil; just and upright is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4 MKJV).
If you can, as Mary boasts, “maintain our total and rock-like peace,” then surely God has not sent us. But if your peace and confidence is removed, know for certain that God has visited you.
A few weeks later, Mary wrote to “The Path of Truth,” requesting to be removed from the mailing list:
Please take me off your list now.
It is a shame that I cannot report you have made any improvements in the last few weeks, but there we are. If ever you open a Yahoo forum for yourselves and all the people you have verbally attacked in this correspondence, now that might be interesting. But you continue to insist on one-way dialogue, and it isn’t fair. It makes victims of people. It isn’t Christ-like. You will need to do some repenting before we can feel the power of God in what you say.
1 Corinthians 13
*/1/* Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
*/2/* And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
*/3/* And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
*/4/* Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
*/5/* Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
*/6/* Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
*/7/* Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
*/8/* Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
*/9/* For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
*/10/* But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
*/11/* When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
*/12/* For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. */13/* And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
We are indeed sorry you feel the way you do. Allow me to ask you some questions.
Are you sure you are the judge of what kind of improvements we should be making? Can one improve upon that which has been perfected? Are you perfected that you can tell what needs improvement and how?
Is attack necessarily wrong, verbal or otherwise? David attacked with sword, led and directed by God to do so, and the prophets with God’s Word, at least that is the way their enemies took it. However, the “attack” was for good, though only those who were prepared to humble themselves before God could recognize the good. For those who chose their own gods, it was “attack.” Are these things not so?
What is fairness, Mary? Any letters we post are posted in full and we reply to them, posting the replies in full. If there is more argued, we post that as well, except where we judge that the readership will no longer be well served by it. We have nothing to fear and are not reluctant to post that which others speak against us. The Issues of Life is an honest and accurate example of that. You have had your opportunity to speak, and you still do, Lord willing. You are also free to post this letter on your forum.
What you do not realize is that God is running the show, being Sovereign Ruler over all things. He has anointed us to “attack” the horrid, destructive evils that are being taught and practiced in His Name.
What is “fair?” He sends one angel to attack and destroy 185,000 Syrians in one night. He sends a plague among the Israelites and kills thousands in an hour. Without so much as one word as “Repent,” He downs Ananias and Sapphira for deception, though they were giving a portion of their land sale revenues to the saints. You would have croaked at that one, had you been there. What is fair? You are no different than the sons of Korah who murmured against Moses and Aaron, except that you are not an Israelite of the Kingdom.
What is “Christlike”? Does that not depend on which “christ” you worship? And do not your feelings, sense and judgment of power, also depend upon the christ you worship? We have told you, in unambiguous terms, that you serve another Jesus. You are the one called upon to repent, Mary. By your own judgment and volition, you call on us to repent but God by us calls on you to repent. Not believing, you attack us…yes, attack, but not for good. And it only brings your ruin.
Again, we are sorry you react the way you do. We would be willing to consider posting this letter as well. We may do that.
Contending earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints, rejected and redefined by those who would have their own way in this day,
Page 17 PART FIVE – Moon River to Harvest Haven (cont.) Particle – The Fox Reported to His Warren Bill Welton had stalled the transfer of our mutuals while they were losing money. There was no question in my mind he was deliberately uncooperative. I reported him to the Securities Commission, speaking to Lee Smyth. Did it do any good? The stocks industry makes a show of integrity and concern, does an “investigation,” and protects itself. It's the same as when one complains of a medical doctor's abuse to the self-governing medical association and gets nowhere. It is all a sham. I expected as much, but thought it wouldn't hurt to get his name on the books nonetheless. Who knows if there isn't a conscience out there somewhere? Besides, the wicked need to hear they're offending. Nevertheless, the Lord had them do all this evil successfully for my sake. Temporarily, they prosper, but the day of reckoning comes for all with perfect timing. It's never been otherwise. Perhaps Bill was facing problems in other ways. He had been with Nesbitt Thomson but a short time, then went to Midland, which was reported to be losing a lot of money, and I don't know where he went from there. Obviously, he wasn't a stable company man. A man on the run? Perhaps they didn't like his ways? Particle – A New Start It was a great relief when we were finally free of Bill Welton. Our funds had come down within a year from $350,000 to $250,000. I had been angry with Marilyn for pers...
Correspondence with Paul Bohnert and Sherri Umeris Sent to Paul Bohnert and others involved with the Environmental Summit of 2006 in Lethbridge: The Answer for Our Environment, Economy and Spirituality Hi Paul, Victor Hafichuk here. As you may know, we at Harvest Haven are Christians. God has graciously given us to know that we are bought with a fearful price, that price being nothing less than the blood of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. We have been forgiven all our offences against Him, and He has chosen us to be a testimony unto Him. We know this to be a great and wonderful privilege. As those redeemed by His blood, we see a grievous thing in the world. His Name has been misrepresented, abused, neglected and ignored; and all these are one and the same to Him. His creatures, mankind, which He has made in His image and has purposed to enjoy a vibrant, meaningful, spiritual fellowship both with Him and with each another, go about their lives as though He doesn’t exist or is unimportant. We recognize the importance of being respectful of God’s creation. He has taught us that we are not here to abuse that which He has created and bestowed on us for our benefit. We are here to take care of it. That is the true Christian position, responsibility and attitude. We love His creation because we love Him. Those who do not love His creation do not love Him. On the opposite end of the equation, those who do not love Him do not love His creation, tho...
Page 15 PART THREE– Israel to Bernalillo (cont.) Particle – Apology to John Taal In such trying times, I often look for sin or fault with myself. Here we were in Lethbridge in great turmoil, and though we knew John Taal, and he was a believer (so we thought), we weren't free to contact him for help or direction. I asked myself, “Should we be free to contact him? If so, why weren't we doing it?” Could it have been the critical letter I sent him? Surely, he was only trying to help, and I'd merely been biting the hand trying to feed me. I decided to call him and apologize. Marilyn didn't agree. She said I would be vexed. Again, I didn't listen. I paid the Taals a visit, apologized, and it was as gravel in my mouth. There was no peace about it at all. John's wife mocked me, and he was entertained by his wife's conduct. He included her as a believer in judging matters when it was clear she had no faith whatsoever. He wasn't gracious, and I wasn't settled. Marilyn had been right again. But there was more to come, to my surprise, though it would take years. Particle – A Provision on Time We spoke to Fred and Delores on the phone, and received a letter from them some days later. We hadn't told them our needs, as was our direction from God. In the envelope were two things: a much-needed financial provision of $700, which would cover our rent, utilities, and food, and a more precious spiritual gift, a message, which said: “God is ready to assume ful...