well thanks for the harvest haven herald – it was great…
except, I confess… I was confused and alarmed by the comment about ‘gay marriages’ being legalized – it was sort of in a section that lists the ills of the world and surely to god you are not proposing that some of god’s children (gay though they may be) deserve less than the rest of us in terms of dignity and the right to be true to their own nature…
anyways – if you are of the opinion that humans of the same sex can’t be in loving relationships like the rest of us, then I suggest you ask god for help in arriving at the same kind of enlightened thinking you possess around the production of food…
Greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ, Florence!
I am glad you appreciated this issue of the HHH, and thank you for the feedback. Let us have a frank, open discussion of this matter. I have questions and answers. I hope you will be able to respond rationally and objectively. I am going to tell you up front that you’re wrong in your thinking, that you have neither authority nor credible source for believing what you do, and I will tell you why you don’t. I will also tell you by what authority we believe what we do and why our understanding is therefore true and justified.
I wonder why you were confused about the portion on homosexual marriages. There are those who approve, and those who do not. We do not. Why the confusion? You also say you were alarmed. Why? Did you expect us, for some particular reason, to be approving? Why would you? I think I know why, but rather than speculate, I will explain to you where we’re coming from on this matter.
First, I greeted you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only those who have been begotten in Him, or born of God, having received His Spirit, can do that in truth. As it is written by the apostle John:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Nearly 30 years ago, the Lord revealed Himself to me and I was born again of Him. Therefore, as you have suggested, I have sought Him in prayer on many matters, and have indeed been enlightened. I do not speak lightly on this matter or any other concerning Him. All things are considered in Him.
To address your apparent notion that all are God’s children, I refer you to the Scriptures above, which are clear: Not all are children of God as you suppose. Those born of God are His children. The Scriptures also declare that there are few at any time who are His children. As Jesus Himself said:
Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in through it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and constricted is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Those are not my words but His. I know them to be true, not only by revelation of the Scriptures, but also by experience.
Did I propose that homosexual people deserve less than do “straights”? No, not at all. The Bible is clear on that point as well. To His listeners, Jesus said that unless they repented, (straight or homosexual), they would likewise perish as did others, tragically, in some cases even violently:
Luk 13:1 And some were present at the same time reporting to Him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And answering, Jesus said to them, Do you suppose that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
There are no homosexuals that are God’s children. Does that shock you, Florence? I will tell you why. His disciple John wrote these words:
1Jo 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
1Jo 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
Now we need to determine if homosexuality is sin in God’s sight. Firstly, sin is defined as the breaking of God’s laws. Secondly, John clearly says that God’s children do not break His laws. Thirdly, it can then be easily deducted that if there are those living in sin, they are not His children. Now, are homosexuals breaking His laws? Read please:
Lev 18:22 "Don’t have sex with a man as one does with a woman. That is abhorrent.
Lev 18:23 "Don’t have sex with an animal and violate yourself by it. "A woman must not have sex with an animal. That is perverse.
Lev 18:24 "Don’t pollute yourself in any of these ways. This is how the nations became polluted, the ones that I am going to drive out of the land before you.
Lev 18:25 Even the land itself became polluted and I punished it for its iniquities–the land vomited up its inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 You must keep my decrees and laws–natives and foreigners both. You must not do any of these abhorrent things.
Lev 18:27 The people who lived in this land before you arrived did all these things and polluted the land.
Lev 18:28 And if you pollute it, the land will vomit you up just as it vomited up the nations that preceded you.
Lev 18:29 "Those who do any of these abhorrent things will be cut off from their people.
Lev 18:30 Keep to what I tell you; don’t engage in any of the abhorrent acts that were practiced before you came. Don’t pollute yourselves with them. I am GOD, your God."
What do you think about adultery, Flo? How would you feel if your husband had sex with an animal? How would your husband feel if YOU had sex with an animal? How would you feel about your husband going to bed with your mother? How would you or your husband feel if his father went to bed with you, or your mother went to bed with your husband? Obviously, according to God’s Word, He condemns homosexuality equally with those sins. Please read:
Lev 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–the wife, say, of his neighbor–both the man and the woman, the adulterer and adulteress, must be put to death.
Lev 20:11 "If a man has sex with his father’s wife, he has violated his father. Both the man and woman must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths.
Lev 20:12 "If a man has sex with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is perverse. And they are responsible for their own deaths.
Lev 20:13 "If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths.
Lev 20:14 "If a man marries both a woman and her mother, that’s wicked. All three of them must be burned at the stake, purging the wickedness from the community.
Lev 20:15 "If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death and you must kill the animal.
Lev 20:16 "If a woman has sex with an animal, you must kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death. And they are responsible for their deaths.
Now it is often said, “Well! That’s the OLD Testament! We’re in the New now! Jesus changed things! Did He? Here is what the New Testament has to say on the matter:
Rom 1:20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both His eternal power and His divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!
Rom 1:21 They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to Him, nor do they thank Him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.
Rom 1:22 They say they are wise, but they are fools;
Rom 1:23 instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.
Rom 1:24 And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other.
Rom 1:25 They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator Himself, Who is to be praised forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts.
Rom 1:27 In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing.
Rom 1:28 Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do.
Rom 1:29 They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip
Rom 1:30 and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents;
Rom 1:31 they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others.
Rom 1:32 They know that God’s law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them.
Perhaps you and/or your husband don’t have any problem with any of those things, Flo. Notice the punishments meted out for such acts. It was God’s way of demonstrating to His people, and ultimately to all mankind, the seriousness of these things. If you partake in these things, you will be destroyed, quite naturally, inevitably.
Homosexuality has been named after a city that God destroyed because of such evil. If you even support these sins, as you evidently do, it is no different to God than if you did them. Jesus Christ made that quite clear when He said, “He (or she) that is not for Me is against Me.” There is no middle ground. He is the Author of both Old and New Testaments, inspiring His saints and prophets to write them.
There are those ignorant fools who claim that Jesus did away with the Law, that He sanctioned sin. No greater lie was told. In fact, He elevated the requirement of the Law substantially: Hear this:
Mat 5:17 Let there be no thought that I have come to put an end to the Law or the prophets. I have not come for destruction, but to make complete.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth come to an end, not the smallest letter or part of a letter will in any way be taken from the Law, till all things are done.
Mat 5:19 Whoever then goes against the smallest of these laws, teaching men to do the same, will be named least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who keeps the laws, teaching others to keep them, will be named great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that people were told in the past, ‘Do not commit murder; anyone who does will be brought to trial.’
Mat 5:22 But now I tell you: if you are angry with your brother you will be brought to trial, if you call your brother ‘You good-for-nothing!’ you will be brought before the Council, and if you call your brother a worthless fool you will be in danger of going to the fire of hell.
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’
Mat 5:28 But now I tell you: anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing adultery with her in his heart.
Do His own words sound like He did away with the Law and decided to “live and let live”? Hardly. Only fools set on fulfilling the lusts of their flesh can possibly entertain that lie. They receive their dues.
Flo, it does not matter who you are. According to God, if you walk in sin, you have no right to any kind of dignity or the right to be “true to your nature.” The Bible is also clear on the fact that sinfulness is a result of a corrupt, fallen nature, though once begun in the image of God. We have no right to sin. We don’t even have a right to our own opinions! God has called on us to know and to speak the truth, and not merely give opinions on things He Himself has clearly judged or determined to be right or wrong.
This reply and its content may come as dogmatic, and a shock to you. Apparently you are quite unfamiliar with the Scriptures and with God. If you were otherwise, you would not be able to advise me to seek god (you use a small “g”) to be enlightened, as if I were now in darkness. Believe me, we are enlightened on the matter, and you need to be as well if you are to be in harmony with the God (capital “G”) of the universe, the Creator of all.
You err on your definition of love, apparently. There is no question that people can love each other, opposite or same sex. But does that make the relationship valid? Not in God’s sight. Even married people of opposite sex live sinful lives, be it in adultery or whatever. They may love each other, but UNLAWFULLY, and to their condemnation. Love, as you know it, is not an end in itself.
Over the years, Hollywood or Movieland has served to pervert the true meaning of love. The Bible teaches that God IS Love. His love is manifest and exemplified in Jesus on the cross, deliberately laying down His life for all sinners, paying the price which they, and not He, owed. To avail ourselves of the benefit of His sacrifice, we must repent.
We often mistake sexual lust for love. Homosexuality is a perversion as the Scriptures declare, a horrible one. I do marvel at how everyday people have come around to view the insemination of rectums, with the soiling by feces of their sexual organs, as normal and valid expressions of “loving.” I marvel at the perversity of the whole thing and how Prime Minister Chretien, the Supreme Court, the Moderator of the United Church and so many other supposedly “enlightened” people have fallen for lies, for practices so contrary to God, His Nature and His laws. Many also claim to read the Bible, to use it as an authority for their ends, yet ignore, even despise the clear testimonies of it.
I believe that there are at least two reasons why people support homosexuality. Firstly, they are ignorant of God, His laws and His ways, and in most cases, couldn’t care less about Him anyway, preferring their own indulgences. Secondly, they may know homosexuality to be wrong, but they sanction it, thinking that if they are “forgiving” and “understanding” of those sins, that they can justify their own, salving their consciences. Yes, they can perhaps convince themselves that they are not so “bad,” but that will never do with God. He does not change, nor will He be persuaded to go against His own Nature as reflected in His laws. “I am the Lord; I change not” He clearly declares.
So you see, Flo, that it is not a matter of opinion to me at all. It is a matter of what God has to say about these things. He is the final authority in all matters. Jesus said that the Scriptures were firm, never to be changed, as quoted above. Secondly, God and the Bible, His Book, are my sources of authority on this and almost any other matter, if not any other. What is or are yours? Do you have any? Are they valid? You are quick to correct me, and to counsel me to seek enlightenment of Him, but to which god do you refer? Certainly not the One I know, and certainly not the One Who authored the one and only complete historical and revelatory Book on earth, the Bible.
A word on the Bible, seeing I look to it as a source of authority for what I believe and speak. Am I justified in doing so? Most certainly! The Holy Scriptures are Divinely inspired, have stood the test of time, for several millennia now, and have been found to be quite accurate and sure, contrary to ignorant gainsayers who speak out of prejudice and not out of knowledge. I have personally found them to be true, and very applicable in all of life. So have many others. Many have staked their lives on the Bible. Many of the writers laid down their lives to bring the Bible to us. Many have known the Scriptures to be true so much so that they willingly lost their lives to stand with the truth of the Scriptures. Eleven of thirteen original apostles died a martyr’s death to bring us the knowledge of God and His Scriptures. This cannot be said of any other book. There is no other book like it. Men have called other books “holy,’ but those books are very different from the one which God has authored through His prophets and apostles, I can assure you. I have read some of them. They are concoctions of men, of religious leaders, but not inspired by God.
Flo, I am not at all offended by your comments. I sincerely thanked you for your response. I hope you can be the same toward us. If you have any inclination to discuss these matters further, please write, or come visit personally. We are no better than anyone else, nor do we think we are. We do not condemn homosexuals. We merely tell you that such a lifestyle to God is clearly an ungodly one, no matter what people may think, say or feel. The same goes for murder, adultery, theft, kidnapping, rape, and other sins. As the Scripture also declares, “Let God be true, and every man a liar.”
I bid you peace in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Subj:Re: a continued conversation…
Date:9/15/2003 3:00:03 PM Mountain Daylight Time
I am thankful that you are willing to continue this conversation. I don’t expect that you will agree with me now, but some day you will. We are all here to learn that the wrong way does not work, and we all will learn, sooner or later, all in His time by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.
I will answer your letter with my comments following yours [red text], to keep the conversation intact.
—– Original Message —–
From: Florence Pastoor
To: Paul Cohen
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:36 AM
Subject: a continued conversation…
Fortunately for us, God had the sense to make most of us heterosexual and a few special ones not.
Has God made us perverse, or is this a work of men, much as transmitting hate is, for example? His word says it is the latter.
(16) For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
(17) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
(18) For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
(19) because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
(20) For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.
(21) Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(22) Professing to be wise, they became fools
(23) and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.
(24) Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.
(25) For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
(26) For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
(27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
(28) And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,
So, according to Scripture, Florence, it’s not that God made man to live contrary to nature, but man hasn’t honored God and has sown corruption, homosexuality being but a visible demonstration of how far astray man would go.
I haven’t asked him personally about this … but I trust fundamentally in his good sense.
We can’t trust our own “good sense,” but as Jesus, our Master, has said, we must live by every word of God. I have just given you what God says in the inspired writings. I will also tell you that He has made these things known to me directly, so I don’t merely repeat what has been written, but I understand it and can say “amen” to every word, being one with the Author and Spirit of Scripture. You haven’t known Him, Florence, or you would agree. I say this not as condemnation, but as truth, which alone can direct one into the freedom for which all creation groans in travail.
I trust that there is some reason – whether it makes sense to me or not – that some members of the same sex fall in love and become life partners.
I just gave you the reason, as Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans.
perhaps it is an opportunity for the rest of us to learn how to love and accept all of god’s handiwork – as much as we want to try to fix and change and hate and reject some humans born drumming to a different beat.
Not everything is God’s handiwork. He is over all things, even the corruption of wickedness that destroys the earth, but He is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). When men lie with men as they would with a woman God calls it abomination (Lev. 18:22) His delight is not that we would live in abominations that destroy us, others, and the earth itself, but that we would repent and come to know all good things in Him.
being gay isn’t a lifestyle choice. it’s a god awful burden and shameful genetic anomaly.
Again, the sins of the fathers are visited on the children, and so we have homosexuality, fornications, pedophilia, and so many other predispositions that create hardships. The Scriptures say that the way of the transgressor is hard. If we would live well and see good we must all repent, being humbled and becoming as little children in coming to God, our Father, that He might lead us in the right way WHICH WE HAVE NOT KNOWN. If we did know it, we would not have crucified or abandoned Him Who came to give us life, right?
it’s hard enough being gay without the rest of the world sending the message that you are not entitled to love and acceptance and understanding.
The message we preach, from God, is that all men have gone astray – we are all vile sinners without hope in this world. So much for love and acceptance, eh? However, we have something much better than the love and acceptance of men, and that is the love and grace of God in Christ Jesus, that, though we were sinners, He died for us to reconcile us to God. We are, by His grace and mercy, a living message of hope and redemption for all others who are indeed burdened by their sins and ignorance. Many who mean well in their own minds are enemies because they oppose His counsel, which is for our good.
(6) Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
Being true to our nature, living in harmony with nature
Living true to our natures and being in harmony with nature is impossible.
Doesn’t the record of history tell us that? Since when has humankind accomplished this? Have you? However, Jesus Christ died and rose again so that you might be delivered from that nature which is against Him. Indeed, as He said, "You must be born again" (John 3). Only in the new nature from above can there be peace and harmony.
and learning to accept life as it is, is why I eat organic, is why I try to understand people who are islamic, or mennonite or asian. I went through a phase in my early twenties when I hated men. i just couldn’t understand why god would be so misguided as have created men – they raped, and killed each other, they cheated on their wives and abandoned their children (generally but especially when the hockey game was on) and they pillaged the earth and couldn’t talk about their feelings and wouldn’t give women the vote for years and years and oppressed the blacks and and and….
Repent, the Kingdom of God is here.
it was a phase… i had to learn to re-love men and accept the way their pain manifests. I had to learn how to love and accept people that were different than me – mostly blacks – because I was taught that they were inferior, smelt funny, were dangerous… I had to learn from a boyfriend who was born left-handed that a mere century ago, children that were born left-handed were smacked across their hand (or worse) and forced to use their right hand… why? because god wanted for us all to be right handed and using the left was a sure sign that the devil had ‘got you’.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Again i say to you Florence, repent. The answer isn’t in rationalizing evil or becoming more open to diversity, but in turning to God though the whole world lies in wickedness, which it does (I John 5:19). You are simply confessing your oneness with the world, your love of it. Of this John, filled with the Spirit of God, wrote:
(15) Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
(16) For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
We, the saints of God, have hated our own lives in this world, so that we might, by the will of God, Who determined this for us, come into the Kingdom of Heaven and peace on earth. There is no peace without the Prince of Peace. There is no prince of Peace for us until we turn from our own thoughts and lives to yield obedience to our rightful Lord and Saviour.
The same argument is made for those born gay. we are trying to smack them into being something they are not. it doesn’t work and only works against mother nature – who has other plans.
Who is smacking? Are you smacking the chairman of Monsanto, by saying what he supports (does) is evil? Is it wrong to disagree with destructive ways? Is it not possibly the best thing at times to get smacked? Can you perceive the motives of all, and judge all things?
I know it makes NO sense. and so it is. I love god’s work anyways and I endeavor to live in harmony with what is – and not fill my heart with hate and close myself off from the mysteries of the universe.
Who is in hate? What is hate anyway? What is love? Who is closed here? Who loves God’s work, if both of us say we do and yet I don’t declare “clean” deviant behaviour as you do? How do you know I don’t love God – how do you know I am not, in fact, speaking His words to you right now?
I have never heard Jesus whisper in my heart that I should throw the first stone at anyone … I am surprised he whispers something different to you…