The letter from Mike that started it all:
Hi Paul,
Received Sara’s information and I sincerely appreciate her time and effort in compiling the reports and links to trustworthy anti-spyware/adware programs.
Also, I read the forwarded correspondence between you and Lawrence Auster and I hope he answers your last response and clarifies his comments. Keep up the good work!
By the way, when I was debating one of the Muslim room administrators on Paltalk, one of the touchy subjects that seemed to cause him some discomfort was the point that Muslims have no assurance of their salvation even though they are “Muslim.” As you know, according to Muhammad, Allah and an angel have already pre-determined (predestined) which Muslim will be a believer and which will not be a believer. So, even though Muslims think they are doing good in their life, a turn of events may occur that “tips the scales” in favor of sending their soul to the “hellfire.” This is one of the research points that is included on my website and it is quite clear that Muhammad taught that “Allah and an angel” confer at the birth of all children to determine their eternal fate. When I pointed that out, many of the Muslims began asking their administrator more questions about this and it was evident they became quite unsettled in the fact that this is what Islam teaches. As it turns out, there are many Muslims who are not really aware about this teaching and when they do find out it sure seems to shake their faith in Islam. May God open their hearts and minds and break the chains of deception and set the captives free through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach.
Best Regards Always,
Mike
Paul’s reply:
Hi Mike,
We are glad to be of help to you.
Lawrence Auster wrote back and said he would try to get back to us on our questions soon.
Daniel Pipes also wrote and asked for the url to the Islam section. I am thankful that he will be reading at least some of what we wrote. I can say this, though, that whether he, or anyone else, reads what we have written, we do rest in the Lord that He is over it all and will cause to happen what He wills. Ours is only to do the work we are called to do. The power is His, and is in His Word. How wonderful it is to know Him and to serve Him by His sovereign power that reigns over all things! We are simply called to believe on Him:
“Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on Him Whom He has sent” (John 6:29 MKJV).
We appreciate the point you bring up about the confused and diabolical teachings of Islam about predestination and works. However, we think there is something to consider inasmuch that conventional Christianity also offers conflicting and confusing doctrines on this matter. For example, I will copy some of the text from your site and point out the problematic areas:
“Predestination, in theological belief, means that God has already predetermined in advance which person will spend eternity in heaven and which person will spend eternity in hell.”
While the Bible speaks of God predestinating us in Christ, one cannot conclude therefore that those not similarly predestined to be among the firstfruits are consigned to an “eternity in hell.” For example, it is written:
“That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works all things after the counsel of His Own will: That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ” (Ephesians 1:10-12).
The Scripture says that in the fullness of times, all things will be gathered together in Him, but for now we have been predestinated by His will to be a kind of firstfruits, being given to trust in Him while the world is yet at enmity with Him. This was determined for us from before we ever came to be in this life, as also confirmed in Paul’s letter to the Romans:
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified” (Romans 8:28-30 KJV).
But if we are a firstfruits (James 1:18), and God determines to gather all things in Christ, then we must understand that there is much more fruit to follow, until every enemy has been subdued (we were His enemies, too) and then will every knee bow to Jesus Christ, and every tongue will confess Him as Lord, just as we have.
You go on:
“Islam is one such religious ideology that teaches predestination, while Christianity preaches that God gives all people the freedom to choose for themselves.”
If we were chosen in Christ before the world began, how can we be said to be exercising our own freedom to choose Him? And did the Lord Jesus not say that we have not done that, but that He chose us?:
“It is not you who chose Me, but it is I Who chose you and appointed you that you might go and be fruitful and that your fruit might remain…” (John 15:16 WNT).
Jesus also said:
“Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70 KJV)
Mike, these words were spoken to none other than the apostles, the chosen, not the choosing, twelve. Consider also Saul’s conversion. Did he get down on his knees and “accept Jesus into his heart as his personal Savior,” as the common false gospel preaches, asserting man’s righteousness, forming himself as a “man-made Christian,” or did not the Lord stop him dead in his tracks, choosing Him, without any options offered, making him a “God-made Christian”? Whose choice was it? The Lord’s or Saul’s? Saul was persecuting the Lord in a continuous fit of rage. The Lord showed him mercy, which He can and will do with every man:
“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him” (Ephesians 1:10 KJV).
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming. Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:22-26 KJV).
Read The False and Misleading Gospel of “Accepting” Jesus Christ.
All is His, Mike, always has been and always will be:
“For by Him were all things created, that are in Heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians 1:16-17 KJV).
You and I are not chosen because we chose. If we chose, it is because we were first chosen. As John declares:
“We love Him, because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19 KJV).
So will it be for all, in the fulness of times (plural):
“And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile ALL things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Colossians 1:20 KJV).
Christ does not preach that all are free to choose Him, or that any are, except by His doing (choosing). (Read Whose Will Is Free?.) If we had the power to choose Him, we would not need Him as our Savior. He is everything we lack that would enable us to make that choice. He is love and light. Lacking those, how can we choose Him? It is impossible:
“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8 EMTV).
This contradicts what you go on to say:
“What may be confused with predestination is God’s Divine attribute of being All-Knowing (Omniscient). Therefore, although God desires all of mankind to be saved from the wrath to come, He actually knows which individual will choose to accept His plan of Salvation and which individual will choose to reject Him.”
The Scripture says it is not of ourselves. We do not have it to make the right choice:
“O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps” (Jeremiah 10:23 KJV).
In fact, the Scripture says that we all hid our faces from Him (Isaiah 53:3), and that all have gone aside; not a single soul has done or chosen good (Psalm 14:3).
Your writing continues:
“This does not prevent God from continually offering each individual the opportunity to know of His existence. In the end, each person will not be able to say that they were not aware of the existence of God nor can they say that they had not been told of His plan. Basically, each person chooses to love God willingly and through his or her own personal decision. By the same token, one willfully chooses to reject God through one’s own personal decision of unbelief.”
Instead of confessing God as sovereign and almighty, as the Bible does, this thinking places the ultimate power in man’s hands, which even the Koran does not do, as wicked and false as it is in its depiction of God.
You summarize your argument:
“As stated, if predestination was a true fact with God, then all people have already been assigned to either heaven or hell and they literally have no choice in the matter. Their fate has been pre-planned! That means that no matter how good or how bad a person lives on earth, they already have their eternal destination waiting for them. Does that sound like a Just and fair God?”
Firstly, let me remind you that God’s ways are much higher that man’s ways, and are not comprehended by men (Isaiah 55:8-9). We need revelation, the eyes of our understanding opened. We need a new nature; we need to be born from above, as Jesus said to Nicodemus.
God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. The Bible says that He decides what He will do with each and every one. He raised up Pharaoh, hardening his heart, to demonstrate His power and glory. He does not simply work with what presents itself; He has created it all for His holy and wonderful purposes:
“The LORD has made everything for His own purpose, even wicked people for the day of trouble” (Proverbs 16:4 GW).
Secondly, you are preaching man’s righteousness. Man is utterly devoid of any, except by the sheer grace of God. On that point, the Scriptures are abundantly clear:
“For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all” (Romans 11:32 KJV).
Thirdly, what is “fair”? Here is what He replied to those who thought they were unjustly treated when paid what they had bargained for and when others were paid strictly by mercy and grace and not according to decision or deservance:
“Take yours, and go; I will give to this last one the same as to you. Is it not lawful for Me to do what I want with My own? Is your eye evil because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 20:14-16 MKJV).
Yet, whatever He chooses to do, no one can say He is not just or fair:
“But indeed, O man, who are you to be answering back against God? Surely the thing formed will not say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor? But what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, and so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:20-24 EMTV).
In the end, it is written, every man shall have praise of God. Your “theology” is faulty, Mike, no less than the Muslims in this matter. While we do not teach “theology,” we do preach Christ, the “Theo,” Who is also the Omega. I recommend that you read the following writings that draw from His Word about His will and His glorious work, that you might know the Truth and give Him His due honor:
The Good News
The Reconciliation of All Things
Who Then Can Be Saved?!
In another section you write:
“If the choice is offered to spend an eternal destiny in heaven or in hell, there is no doubt that most people would opt to spend eternity in a peaceful place surrounded by lush gardens, flowing rivers and perfect peace rather than in a place of raging fires of torment and anguish. Islam and Christianity both present similar eternities; however, as outlined in the section “Predestination of Souls” the Qur’an offers no choice in the matter of salvation since Islam claims that Allah and an angel have already pre-determine whether an individual will be an “inmate of paradise” or be a “denizen of Hell-fire” at the time that person is born.”
If you consider our writings about what the Scriptures teach, you will see that the Bible and the Koran are night and day on what each presents about Heaven and Hell. To begin with, the Lord teaches us that the Kingdom of Heaven is within, as is Hell. We have discovered that to be true. Real Christianity is the process of going through Hell to enter Heaven. Everyone, the Lord said, will be salted with fire.
Does this mean, because the Lord is in charge, and that He wills that all come to repentance, that you can just do what you want and go to Heaven? That is not repentance! It certainly is not what is taught in Scripture, nor is it our experience. We do know that a man shall reap as He sows. This applies to everyone:
“Wash yourselves, make yourself clean. Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil. Learn to do well. Seek justice. Relieve the oppressed. Judge the fatherless. Plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it” (Isaiah 1:16-20 HNV).
By the grace of God, we believe on Him and have received His saving faith that enables us to be willing and obedient. Mike, there is much more in the writings I send you. Please read them. This is an important matter and discussion, far closer to home for you than Islam.
Paul (with Victor contributing).
Mike’s response:
Hi Paul,
You wrote: “If we were chosen in Christ before the world began, how can we be said to be exercising our own freedom to choose Him? And did the Lord Jesus not say that we have not done that, but that He chose us?:”
Hmmm… I believe that the Biblical context of “those who have been chosen” speaks specifically of just the Apostles as they are being reminded that it is they (The 12) who have been chosen to walk with Jesus during His ministry: The twelve, one being a devil (Judas Iscariot), were predestined for God’s Divine purpose for His Good News to be preached unto all the ends of the earth. Yes, Jesus deliberately chose the one who would betray Him. Remember, each of the 12 are representing one of the 12 Tribes of Israel. Such will be the 144,000 elect at the end times as spoken in Revelation (12,000 from each Jewish Tribe)
Also, please consider that the interpretation you present would mean that God actually creates mankind for the purpose of saving some and sending all others to hell. Therefore, it seems that this would negate God’s sovereignty in sending Jesus to shed his Blood for the sins of ALL who believe upon His name. It would also negate the Old Testament verse where God says “I Love those who love me and those who seek me early with a sincere heart shall find me”.
As we know, the fact is that not all people seek God with a sincere heart and are deceived by false religions and traditions which they trust are going to save them. Additionally, consider the words in scripture that say: If our gospel be hid it is hid by the god of this world who has blinded them from the Truth of the glorious Gospel of Christ.” (Paraphrased – not near my bible references) will send them later.
That is the premise by which I have written what I have written and perhaps we can agree to disagree because I sincerely believe God is a Just, Righteous and Fair God who is “Not Willing that anyone should perish but come to repentance.” (Paraphrased again) Truth is: Not all wish to come to repentance when they are presented with the Truth because they choose to believe someone else (again through deception) and not believe in God’s Promise of Eternal Salvation through Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach.
Wouldn’t you know it – these choices have gone on since the days of Adam and Eve.
All the Best – In Love,
Mike
Reply from Victor:
Mike, please read what we sent you and read it carefully. You are presenting arguments against arguments we did not, and would not, make. Look again. We can answer these things very easily and will, if we must, but they are already addressed in the letter and in the recommended articles.
You have struck us as being responsible to a degree. I hope we will not be disappointed. At least once you have red what we have written, and presented arguments against what we have said, and not what we have not said, then it will be a step in the right direction.
Mike’s response:
Hi Victor,
No problem, Victor. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your stand in regard to God’s Gift of Salvation. As I viewed the message from Paul, it struck me as the Doctrinal stand in Calvinism and in agreement with Islam’s teaching of predestined souls unto Salvation. Both Calvinism and Islam negate the context of the following verses in John , Chapter 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
While people are stuck in religious traditions, rituals and rules and regulations imposed by man, the Gospel proclaims that they are given a choice to believe whether Jesus Christ is truly The Son of The Living God, The Resurrected Saviour of mankind whose Shed Blood Atones for those who receive Him by Faith, and the One who shall return as Moshiach to reign for one-thousand years from Jerusalem
As mentioned, we can agree to disagree on this point but either all people are given a choice to place their trust and faith in Yeshua or only a select group are saved and all others are going to incur the Wrath of God because He Willed it that way. In my understanding of scripture, the only ones who have been predestined and reserved unto the day of Judgment to incur God’s wrath are Satan and his fallen angels. Mankind (humans) are born into sin, in need of a Saviour and are given the choice to accept The Saviour or try to save their self.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;…(2 Peter 2:4)
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
Please accept this response in Love as intended.
Mike
Paul’s reply:
Hi Mike,
You need to read the writings we sent you. And, if you will engage us in discourse, you also need to quote us specifically, and bring the Scriptures to bear on what you quote. You are missing the point of what we said, even in our letter to you. You have allowed your reflex action to take over and you are not hearing what it is that we present to you from God and Scripture.
If we plainly state that God intends to save everyone, and will do so (who can stop Him?), then how can that be interpreted to mean that some have been created for the purpose of occupying hell forever? Isn’t that rather what your doctrine implies? Let me tell you how, if you do not see it:
You believe (I assume, correct me if I am wrong) that God is sovereign, all-powerful and all-knowing (these things are true). Having these attributes would therefore mean, according to your doctrine, that He knowingly made creatures in His image whom He willingly sends into torment for eternity. How do you get around that? Free will? Then you are saying that He knowingly made creatures He knew He would have to torment forever, because of what they would choose. Would you have twenty children knowing in advance that nineteen of them, whom you loved, would spend an endless period in continuous, unspeakably horrible torture? Would you put your children to such a fate if they rejected you as their father, going their own way? I hope you would say, “No.” If you then, being evil, would not do such a thing to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father not do so, Who gave His only begotten Son for their salvation! And it is a done job, Mike, not merely a potentially useful strategy. God does not “attempt” things. Whatever He does, He succeeds at it, unlike man, whom He has subjected to vanity.
But whose will is free? Read the writing I sent you (Whose Will Is Free?) Also read the letter sent to Joyce Wentworth the other day, entitled “Insincere Sincerity.” This letter deals with the false notion that there are people who seek after God by some virtue of their own. In other words, that some have it to seek after and “accept” Him, and the rest reject Him.
As for the matter of God choosing, if that applies to the apostles, which it does, why would it not apply to all others that have faith? Are not all His people spiritual Israel, of one Body, and are they not all chosen?
“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God: the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession, above all peoples who are on the face of the earth. The LORD didn’t set His love on you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all peoples: but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, has the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8 HNV).
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellent virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (1 Peter 2:9 EMTV).
And here is what Paul wrote the saints at Ephesus, which covers several points we have made:
Ephesians 1:3-11 HNV
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, Who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Messiah;
All saints partake of the same spiritual blessings in Messiah.
(4) even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without blemish before Him in love;
All those in the faith of Christ are chosen of Him from before consciousness or conscious choice could be made. It is His doing, not man’s.
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Yeshua the Messiah to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His desire,
God predestined us according to His will, not ours.
(6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He freely bestowed favor on us in the Beloved,
(7) in whom we have our redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
(8) which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
All virtue is His, and is freely given to those that receive Him.
(9) making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Him
(10) to an administration of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Messiah, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, in Him;
(11) in Whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him Who works all things after the counsel of His will;
All those in Christ are foreordained, because they have been called and chosen by God to become part of Him that was from before the foundation of the world. He makes known to His people His will, which is that He will reconcile all things through Himself, and we, being in Him, are part of that great work. This is the good news. In Messiah we do not labor in vain.
If you are saying that the apostles were chosen among those that already had faith, like an elite squad of leaders in an army, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about salvation, as Paul wrote about in his letter to the Ephesians. All who receive Christ, no matter as what part of His body they might serve, do so because He chooses to reveal Himself to them:
“And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father” (John 6:65 MKJV).
Paul
Victor’s reply:
Mike, Victor here,
We understand that you are trying to be agreeable, not wishing for any strife or controversy, saying, “Please accept this response in Love as intended.” We understand; we have come to a relationship; we see that you value relationships and are trying to do your best to honor and preserve them, without compromising your convictions. However, before we even think to take your suggested path and “agree to disagree,” would it not be wise to fully understand on what it is we agree or disagree? Plainly, you have not red the papers we have urged you, at least twice, to read. If you had red them, you would not be able to say the things you say to us, for two reasons at least: one, you are fighting straw men (fighting arguments we are not making), drawing conclusions that do not rightly follow that which we believe and teach, and two, you would see that the very things you say we err in are things you are guilty of yourself.
For an example of the second point, you say we preach predestination to eternal hell. That is what you preach. That is not what we preach. Yes, you will say that man has a choice, not that God desires for men to choose to reject Him. However, consider these things in light of our papers – READ THEM, PLEASE, RESPONSIBLY, ATTENTIVELY, CONSIDERATELY – The Good News, The Reconciliation of All Things, Who Then Can Be Saved?!, and Whose Will Is Free?. And you will, of necessity, see what we are saying and what we are not, Lord willing. “Let us reason together,” with honesty and humility. Only then can we know on what we agree or disagree.
But I also see something else here, Mike. We know that no man can receive anything except it be given him from above. We also know that those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which comes with the attendant gifts – prophecy, discerning of spirits, revelations, visions, dreams, miracles, healings, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, tongues, interpretations of tongues and more – are in a position by nature to receive from God that which others are quite unable to receive, though it stares them in the face with their eyes wide open, this in spite of having experienced the wonderful gift of repentance of God. We would hope that you have experienced a personal conversion to Christ, but, as importantly, have you had an initiatory infilling of the Holy Spirit after conversion? Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
As Paul asked the Ephesian disciples in Acts 19, so I ask you, “Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?” That is an important question, Mike, and if you have any kind of a Baptist-type background, you will have your arguments and pat answers for this doctrine as well. I had them too, until the Lord brought me through, in spite of myself. Read Victor Hafichuk. Yes, we expect you are a busy man and we ask you to read a fair bit, but we know it is far more than worth it. It is a matter of priorities. I hope you will believe us and take a couple of days to read and consider, seeking God’s grace to show you what you need to see and comprehend.
Victor
Mike’s response:
Hi Paul and Victor,
Thank you both for your response and suggestion to read your information thoroughly. Yes, I will do so over the course of the next few days.
Victor, you asked if I have received the Holy Spirit since I believed. Yes, my wife and I are both spiritually born-again through God’s Divine Interevention in our life as mentioned in my written Testimony. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit that has changed our lives and bears witness that we are Children of God.
Our conversion occurred in 1976 when I was seeking to straighthen my life out with God. My wife, an Atheist at the time, wanted nothing to do with God. As I share in my testimony, I audibly heard the Voice of God clearly speak to me – telling me to ask my wife if she believed that “Jesus was the Son of God.” My wife shares how that she was confronted with a choice that she had to make regarding whether to believe or not believe that Jesus was The Son of God. Again, I believe that God gives everyone that choice but makes the suggestion of which choice to make when He calls them to decide: i.e.: “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Thus, my wife shares how she became aware of the consequences if she were to have denied Jesus’ Deity.
I believe you have both read my testimony which is posted at:
http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/mike-ramirez.html
Meanwhile, our exchange of messages reminded me of the following scripture that I felt led to share with you both:
Luke, Chapter 9, verses:
49: And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
51: And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52: And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
All the Best in Love and Truth,
Mike
Victor’s reply:
Hi Mike,
Let me begin with something that I hope will not be offensive to you. In reference to your wife, there is no mention of repentance or of receiving the Spirit, only that she believed that Jesus is the Son of God. Did not the devils also believe that Jesus was the Son of God? They even confessed so:
“And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” (Matthew 8:29 MKJV)
“And crying out with a great voice he said, What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure You by God, do not torment me!” (Mark 5:7 EMTV).
“And also demons came out of many, crying out and saying, You are the Christ, the Son of God! And rebuking them, He did not allow them to speak; for they knew Him to be the Christ” (Luke 4:41 MKJV).
As to the Scriptures you felt led to share with us, it seems immediately plain to us why you did so. I did take note that those two stories came together, the one of John complaining that someone else who was not following them was casting out devils, and James and John suggesting to call fire down on the Samaritans for not receiving them. I don’t know that I made note of that before. I will take it as a gentle reminder to be ever mindful that because people are not exactly with us, as we might think they should be, does not mean we should fault or discredit them.
However, these verses do not apply to us as you might think. In the first case, having the Spirit ourselves, we know that those of whom John was speaking could not have cast out devils (perform a miracle) without the power of the Spirit. Therefore, the fact that they were able to do so tells us God’s power was upon them. That is why Jesus said they were not against them but for them.
There was a similar case with Moses. There were those who came to him complaining of others who were prophesying. Moses obviously believed they were anointed of God and therefore did not fault them. He had a witness that the prophesying was of God and not of another source. I have heard people prophesy letter-perfect words, yet knew they were not of the Spirit of God. I have heard tongues that I knew were not of God, yet how does one tell, not knowing the language, except by the Spirit of God? As God judged, so Moses judged. As our Father judges, so we judge.
This passage does not necessarily indicate that we ought not to question others’ profession of faith simply because they claim faith in Christ or claim to be born again or manifest gifts. That would be contrary to John’s wise and godly counsel that we believe not every spirit but test the spirits.
Paul and other apostles warned of false brethren. Are we to take the word of an apparent brother? No. For examples, to give blatantly obvious ones, shall we give benefit of doubt to a Mormon or to a JW or to a Catholic, all of which I have heard claim they believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that they are born again? But there are many more subtle examples, and therefore the more deceptive and difficult to discern. They must also be scrutinized by the Spirit of the Lord.
As to the next story of calling down fire on the Samaritans: Because those people were hindering them or were unreceptive, the Zebedee brothers thought to destroy them. Are you suggesting that we seek to destroy those who do not agree with us? You have no basis for that thought, Mike. I hope you are not thinking that. You would say that you were simply led to give us those verses, but we suspect you had that thought. I hope we are wrong.
We speak fire, not to destroy but to save, not to deform but to transform, not to condemn but to redeem, not to criticize but to warn, not to rebuke or reprove destructively but constructively. Our intent is salvation for all those to whom we speak, none excepted, whether gently or harshly, softly or firmly, “positively” or “negatively.” Even Jesus did not seek to destroy when He called the Pharisees a generation of vipers, nor John when he addressed the multitudes who came to him as a “brood of vipers,” or Paul when he referred to the Cretans as liars and slow bellies, or when he blinded Elymas, the sorcerer.
Not once has the Lord rebuked or chided us for our speech toward others in these matters, as Jesus personally chided James and John, but many men have, and if your motive has been along these lines, you are added to the long lists of accusers, no matter how nicely you may go about it.
Victor
Mike’s response:
Hi Victor,
I am sorry if you may have felt offended by my letter of February 23rd. My intent was never to offend but to show how we may have a different approach of ministry yet the Message remains the same. The Spiritual Church is to be united in pointing mankind to Salvation through our Risen Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, Y’shua HaMashiach all the while it is still God’s Holy Spirit that brings people to become aware of God’s True Plan of Salvation. Unfortunately, many of today’s Christian churches have created more divisiveness rather than unity in contending for the Faith in Christ. That is not what I wanted to happen in our relationship. I have previously commended you and Paul on your ministry, however, as it turns out we have differing thoughts about “Predestined Salvation” and “Free-Will.” We can engage in debate and cite verses in an attempt to disprove one another and prove ourselves right, yet, what does it profit us?
As for my wife, Diana, no offense taken on your comments. We recently celebrated our 34th wedding anniversary and if that isn’t a miracle of God I don’t know what is! lol
In all seriousness, my wife and I have become the best of friends since God’s Divine Intervention and rely on prayer and fellowship in God’s Word and Spiritual guidance in our lives. Are we perfect? No. Saved by the Grace of God? Yes.
Best Regards In Love and Truth,
Mike
Paul’s reply:
Hi Mike, Paul here, answering on behalf of Victor.
First of all, be assured that no offense has been taken here. Our disagreement with some of the things you have said and, more importantly, the thinking that solidifies you in the position you have taken, comes from knowing the Lord Jesus Christ and being compelled, as your neighbors, to tell you the Truth. For, quite contrary to your assessment of our “debate,” there is much to be profited by hearing and believing the Truth that we are speaking to you in these letters.
The reason we asked you about whether you have received the baptism of the Spirit is because it is evident to us that you lack spiritual understanding, and what is more, the ears to hear what it is that we are telling you. We did not ask because we did not know the answer, but because you are not aware of the answer, and perhaps even of the question, though you very much need to be. It was for this same cause that Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again. Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, also could not understand the things of God. However he did not insist, as you do, that he had been born again and that he did understand. Therein lies your problem (John 9:41).
When Aquila and Priscilla met up with Apollos, who had only experienced the baptism of John, they explained the way of God to him more perfectly. Had Apollos been of your mindset, he would have told them, “Listen, I believe in the Messiah Yehoshua, so while I may have a different approach to ministry, we are preaching the same Message.” However, that is the wrong attitude and answer. One that is independent and unteachable cannot preach the same Message, which is Christ. You may give people the right information, but you will be lacking the right Spirit and Life. While the information you have might point someone in the right direction, you will not be saved yourself, having rejected the Lordship and Message of Christ through His appearing to you in His chosen servants:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, He who receives whomever I send receives Me. And he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me” (John 13:20 MKJV).
Apollos did not react the way you do, but he listened to the Lord’s servants and was thereby taught in the way of God. In this manner he grew in faith and was of service to the saints and those that heard him:
“And when he desired to go across to Achaia, having urged him on, the brothers wrote to the disciples there to receive him; and when he arrived, assisted greatly with those who had believed by grace; for he was powerfully refuting the Jews publicly, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah” (Acts 18:27-28 EMTV).
Had Apollos rejected the message from Aquila and Priscilla, as you do with us, he would have had no part in the Body of Christ. You talk about schisms, unaware that it is you who separates yourself from the Body. You are deceived into thinking that by exerting yourself in a “Christian” attitude of speaking peaceably in the spirit of unity and harmony you have fulfilled your duty and are without fault. But by not receiving correction or instruction, all your works of being conciliatory are in vain, and only serve to perpetuate the delusion that you act in Christ. You have another god and agenda, Mike.
Apollos demonstrated the fruits of a true conversion when he received the saints and their instruction. It is now confirmed to us, by your reaction, that you have yet to be converted and experience the Feast of Passover. You have received a false gospel from a false spirit, deceitfully coming to you in the Name of Jesus. In other words, unlike Apollos, you are preaching another “Jesus,” of the kind Paul warned about (2 Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:8-9).
You describe your encounter as follows:
“I audibly heard the Voice of God clearly speak to me – telling me to ask my wife if she believed that ‘Jesus was the Son of God.’ My wife shares how that she was confronted with a choice that she had to make regarding whether to believe or not believe that Jesus was The Son of God.”
That is not how the Lord works, Mike. He does not confront people with whether they believe He was the Son of God or not. Firstly, He is the Son of God, and very God, not was. Now ascended into Heaven, the One Who speaks is Christ, not another. God did not say to Saul, “Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?” but, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” Secondly, no one believes in Him, so He does not ask unregenerate people if they do, and He does not expect them to do so. He comes to change things so that people can believe on Him. It is His work and active will that brings about such change. He is not dependent on men to make the decision to receive His testimony, as you teach. No man receives His testimony:
“And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony” (John 3:32 EMTV).
Those that receive His testimony are those to whom God gives it, like Saul of Tarsus, and so many others, us included.
Your gospel centers on man’s decision:
“I believe that God gives everyone that choice but makes the suggestion of which choice to make when He calls them to decide…”
The Gospel of Christ centers on His decision:
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” (John 15:16 EMTV).
“Everyone whom My Father gives Me will come to Me…” (John 6:37 GNB).
“People cannot come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws them to Me…” (John 6:44 GNB).
It may be summed up this way: God has purposed to create, and is in the process of creating, man in His image. The false gospel, coming forth from the Tree of Knowledge by the counsel of the subtle serpent, which God created, has moved man to create Jesus Christ in his own image.
This is not a small and inconsequential matter; it is a central and critical one. Man’s choosing what he wills and the self-willed religious works that follow come to naught. But God’s work is eternal. Those that hear and follow Him are saved, eating from the Tree of Life. You must repent of the former to enter into this latter work, and this, we preach, will happen in the fullness of times. That is the purpose of your hearing these words, which will do their work as the Seed of God, even if planted in the cement of self-righteousness.
Have you yet fully red the documents we have urged you to read?
Paul
Another letter from Mike:
Hi Victor,
(You asked me to read your articles and respond. Here is the first submittal; others will follow in the next few days as time permits but this will be a start.)
After reading your article, “Who Then Can Be Saved?,” I find the following statement problematic for reasons that will follow.
“In the meantime, those that are Christ’s preach the good news, warning all men to repent. At any one time, some have ears to hear and a heart to respond, by the grace of God, and most do not. In each age and world, it is the same. It will continue until God has reconciled every soul unto Himself.”
Are you implying that perhaps there is a type of reincarnation of the souls from the ones that did not initially respond to the Gospel of Jesus and that in “each age and world” they will have a chance to return until they get it right and become “reconciled” to God? That type of teaching, Victor, negates scripture that states:
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:27-28
The verse in Hebrews specifically states that we die once, thus, each person has his/her lifetime to accept or reject the Salvation Gospel of Christ when the Holy Spirit reveals the awareness of God’s Truth regarding Salvation through Jesus. Also, Scripture clearly indicates that not all will choose Christ as even you indicate where you state “most do not.” Scripture, in fact, states that most people will choose the way of the world system. Such is the case with those who reject Christ as Saviour and follow the deception of the coming Anti-Christ as written in the Book of Revelation:
Revelation Chapter 16, verses:
1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
With all due respect, Victor, teaching that all souls will eventually be saved is not at all scriptural and is further negated by the Holy Bible where it is proclaimed that those who reject God will have their names blotted out of the Book of Life.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)
Who is the person that overcometh?
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5)
John, Chapter 3 clearly states that there are two types of people: those who are not condemned because of his/her faith in Christ and those who remain condemned because of their rejection of Christ: (John 3:18-21)
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Additionally: 1 John Chapter 5 specifically declares that those who do not have Jesus Christ will not have eternal life: (1 John 5:9-13)
9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Conclusion: Mankind has been given the choice to ultimately accept or reject God’s Plan of Salvation during his/her only lifetime on earth. Souls do not return until they are finally “reconciled” to God. The time to decide is in this lifetime otherwise Jesus would not have declared that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand; He would have said, the time of your Salvation will continue until you get it right.
“For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”(2 Corinthians 6:2)
Regards in Truth and Love,
Mike
Paul’s reply:
Hi Mike,
To answer your first question in a word, “No.” We are not preaching reincarnation. We have never said or intimated that people come back to this realm in another body or life. They do not. David said of his first son with Bathsheba, who died as a result of his sin:
“But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23 MKJV).
What we are saying (really, what the Scriptures are saying, as we demonstrate) is that judgment of God continues into the next realm, until it is complete. That is the meaning of the word “everlasting” from the King James Bible. “For as long as it lasts.” What we are saying is that the judgment of God is not an end in itself. God is not stymied or even frustrated by the rebellion of man, as something beyond His reach that He cannot rectify, but He has overcome by His great power, demonstrated by raising Jesus Christ from the dead, and by Him has made inevitable the ultimate reconciliation of all things. He is victorious, not death and hell, as many, including you, teach. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, to be extinguished in those subject to them. Are we not baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire?
So, while people do not come back in this life, they do go on to the next realm, and who says that nothing happens there? God does not say that. The Scriptures do not say that. Have you not red that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison from the time of the flood? Why is He preaching to them if there is no hope of change? What is more powerful: Unbelief or the Word of God? Sin or grace? Offence or mercy?
“But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound” (Romans 5:20 MKJV).
Conquerable death or immortal, resurrection life? You do not believe in the Resurrection, Mike; yes, with the head knowledge, as did the Pharisees, but not in the heart. Why? To believe in the Resurrection, you must be an actual partaker.
Here is another Scripture that promises more to come for everyone:
“For Christ also suffered once to atone for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit, by Whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water” (1 Peter 3:18-20 EMTV).
And again, Peter confirms this:
“For this was the reason why the Good News of Jesus was given even to the dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but might be living before God in the Spirit” (1 Peter 4:6 BBE).
There is more in the other writings we have sent you that deal with this matter. Truly, there is more in the writing you just red! While you have brought up things not said there, inferring wrongly, you have not comprehended or dealt with what has been said. How can you argue that God wills that all should come to repentance, and that no man can do that for himself? It must be by the will of God that one repents, as a gift of faith.
“For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13 MKJV).
If it is a gift, then it must be from a Giver. Are His gifts duds? If God opens, who will close? When you know the answer to why you resist this, it will be because something very important has been revealed to you about what you lack.
Again, speaking of what comes after death, have you not noticed how the kings of Israel were gathered to their people when they died? If they have no hope of further meaningful existence and nothing happens after this life, why are they gathered together? Is God collecting lifeless bodies? For what reason? Or is he gathering clans or groups of people until the time He will put them into a literal fire to torment them? How can we attribute such a wicked and foolish idea to God and declare it to others? God forbid that we do this!
Elijah was translated into the next realm. Was nothing happening there? He then appeared with Moses and the Lord Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Are these hallucinations or fairy tales? God forbid you should think so! But if they are not, then there is more than this earthly realm, and that extends to more than just the saints, but to all that ever lived on earth. There are many realms.
Heaven and Hell are not places people go after death. They represent the spiritual condition here and now. The Kingdom of Heaven, said the Lord, is within you. So is Hell, and so is death.
But you cannot hear our words, which are His, Mike. You need to know why.
You offer the following as what you believe to be evidence that one arrives at a final, irrevocable, negative condition after physical death and judgment, which you equate as one:
“Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment, so Messiah also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for Him for salvation” (Hebrews 9:27-28 HNV).
First of all, as so many others, you wrongly interpret the word “judgment” to mean, for some or many, absolute condemnation and eternal doom. Few greater lies have been told. God’s judgment is ever corrective and redemptive, never otherwise. When He, as Judge, sentences, He sentences to reconcile, not to damn.
However, this Scripture is not about the physical death of men. It is about the sequence of events leading to judgment and salvation. If it were equating judgment with a post physical death state, then we could not, as saints, be judged in this life. But surely we are:
“Beloved, do not be surprised by the fiery trial among you, taking place to test you, as though some strange thing was happening to you…For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God…” (1 Peter 4:12-17 EMTV).
The death that leads to salvation, where we are judged and see the Lord a second time without sin, is the cross. It is what Paul wrote about:
“I have been put to death on the cross with Christ; still I am living; no longer I, but Christ is living in me; and that life which I now am living in the flesh I am living by faith, the faith of the Son of God, Who in love for me, gave Himself up for me” (Galatians 2:20 BBE).
The first time we meet the Messiah, Yehoshua, Jesus Christ, we are yet in our sins. We see and know Him as our Passover, Whose blood delivers us from our sins. Then comes the judgment that delivers us from our sin nature, where we will know Him without sin. That is salvation. (These things match the Scripture I gave you earlier, 1 Peter 4:6 – “For to this end the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit.”)
The dead are on both sides of the divide, Mike. Death is simply separation from God. Adam died the day he sinned. The Lord said as much to one that believed:
“Follow Me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead” (Matthew 8:22 HNV).
Mike, you are interpreting Scriptures carnally, according to your doctrines, and not by the Spirit of the Lord. That is eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. You are in death. But that is not a problem for the Lord, or for us who are immersed in Him for the dead:
“Or else what will they do who are immersed for the dead? If the dead aren’t raised at all, why then are they immersed for the dead?” (1 Corinthians 15:29 HNV).
You write:
“With all due respect, Victor, teaching that all souls will eventually be saved is not at all scriptural and is further negated by the Holy Bible where it is proclaimed that those who reject God will have their names blotted out of the Book of Life.”
Yes, those that sin are taken out of the book. But you cannot therefore eliminate the other side of the equation. Those that turn from their sin can be restored to God.
“When the upright man, turning away from his righteousness, does evil, death will overtake him; in the evil which he has done death will overtake him. Again, when the evil-doer, turning away from the evil he has done, does what is ordered and right, he will have life for his soul. Because he had fear and was turned away from all the wrong which he had done, life will certainly be his, death will not be his fate” (Ezekiel 18:26-28 BBE).
“Well said. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:20-23 EMTV).
Does this only happen in this lifetime? Not according to the Scriptures:
“For I do not desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: ‘The Deliverer shall come out of Zion, and He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob’” (Romans 11:25-26 EMTV).
When the Lord says all, He means all of Israel. Let me ask you, Mike: How much sense does it makes that at a certain point the fullness of the Gentiles is complete and then Israel is saved, but only those alive at that date in history? Is God playing musical chairs with the souls of people? For no other reason than the “music” stops, will God accept a few, and the rest, who lived over thousands of years, will be left out? Too bad for them, I suppose. They did not “accept” Christ when they had their chance, if they had one.
Those who died never having heard of Christ will be damned forever, according to you (yet not you, but your teachers, for your doctrine is not your own nor is it found anywhere in Scripture). Show me even an unbeliever (other than an opportunistic and perverse soul), who, being evil, would agree to penalize someone for crime though that one were not aware he had committed a crime or was ever offered opportunity to make things right? How much less would God do so!
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him? Therefore all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, do even so to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 7:11-12 MKJV).
If God expects us to be as Him, doing good to the evil, how should He, as a hypocrite, go against His own counsel to us?
Your scenario is not good, Mike. It is not Scriptural, and certainly does not give glory to God. It makes Him out to be whimsical, undependable, hypocritical, unfair, and worse. No, when God says He will save all of Israel, He does not mean anything other than what He has plainly declared. He does not mean that He will save only those alive at a certain time. He means all:
“But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then those who are Messiah’s, at His coming. Then the end comes, when He will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For, ‘He put all things in subjection under His feet.’ But when He says, ‘All things are put in subjection,’ it is evident that He is excepted Who subjected all things to Him. When all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son will also Himself be subjected to Him Who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all”
(1 Corinthians 15:23-28 HNV).
Based on another spirit, and not the Spirit of God and His word, your conclusion is therefore wrong:
“Mankind has been given the choice to ultimately accept or reject God’s Plan of Salvation during his/her only lifetime on earth. Souls do not return until they are finally “reconciled” to God. The time to decide is in this lifetime otherwise Jesus would not have declared that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand; He would have said, the time of your Salvation will continue until you get it right.”
Mike, we have spent no little time on this, and will continue to answer you, but will you begin to listen? So far we have not seen that you are listening. You are arguing for your doctrine without hearing what we are saying. The Scriptures are not saying what you make them imply, and they refute your conclusions. You ignore what we show you, because you do not comprehend it. You do not comprehend it because you have other gods and agendas that are more important to you than the Truth.
The main and underlying error you make is that you attribute power and righteousness to man. That is because you are walking in your own power and righteousness, not God’s. Your last sentence sums up your stance:
“The time to decide is in this lifetime otherwise Jesus would not have declared that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand; He would have said, the time of your Salvation will continue until you get it right.”
The Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, whether men believed or not. Most did not. God purposed that:
“For there is a truth, brethren, not revealed hitherto, of which I do not wish to leave you in ignorance, for fear you should attribute superior wisdom to yourselves–the truth, I mean, that partial blindness has fallen upon Israel until the great mass of the Gentiles have come in; and so all Israel will be saved… For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy” (Romans 11:25-32 WNT).
If He has purposed unbelief, how much more belief? That is His end goal. You deny Him His declared purpose and righteousness. You declare, from where you think to stand, that men can be given time to “get it right.” The truth is, Only Jesus Christ is right, and He has the power to raise a person from the deadness of unbelief into His rightness.
If you were right, that man could eventually turn to Christ, why would He not give men all the time they needed to do so? Did He not say that we should forgive seventy times seven, that is, as long as forgiveness is necessary? What is with your impatience? Are you not exhibiting the character of the forgiven man in the Lord’s parable? You certainly are:
Matthew 18:26-35 BBE
(26) So the servant went down on his face and gave him worship, saying, Lord, give me time to make payment and I will give you all.
(27) And the lord of that servant, being moved with pity, let him go, and made him free of the debt.
(28) But that servant went out, and meeting one of the other servants, who was in debt to him for one hundred pence, he took him by the throat, saying, Make payment of your debt.
(29) So that servant went down on his face, requesting him and saying, Give me time and I will make payment to you.
(30) And he would not: but went and put him into prison till he had made payment of the debt.
(31) So when the other servants saw what was done they were very sad, and came and gave word to their lord of what had been done.
(32) Then his lord sent for him and said, You evil servant; I made you free of all that debt, because of your request to me:
(33) Was it not right for you to have mercy on the other servant, even as I had mercy on you?
(34) And his lord was very angry, and put him in the hands of those who would give him punishment till he made payment of all the debt.
(35) So will My Father in Heaven do to you, if you do not everyone, from your hearts, give forgiveness to his brother.
Forgiveness is the way of the Kingdom of Heaven. Why do you think and act as if it only applies on earth, in this earthly life, and not only think, but insist on acting the part of the forgiven debtor who does not allow others the opportunity to “pay up” if they do not meet your criteria of “accepting” Christ in this lifetime? You exhibit the opposite from the Spirit of Christ and the commission He has given His saints:
“And all things are of God, Who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and Who gave to us the ministry of this reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their transgressions to them, and committing to us the word of this reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19 EMTV).
Is this reconciliation only for this lifetime, or are the riches of His grace to be seen and known in the ages to come? Repent, hear, and believe His Word:
“But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-7 MKJV).
Paul
Mike’s reply:
Hi Paul and Victor
Yep, it seems like we still have the same disagreement and although you submit various scriptures to support your claim there are a few things I would like to ask. If it is true that all people will be saved as you say, please explain the following:
1.) Jesus’ warning of those who commit the unpardonable sin.
Mark 3:28-29, and; Luke 12:10 – also Revelation 16:9-11 and Revelation 16:21
2.) What happens to the souls of people whose names are blotted out of The Book of Life? Revelation 20:12-15
3.) What happened to the souls of the people destroyed by the Great Flood in Noah’s day: Genesis 6:17, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed? Genesis 19:24-28, and; 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7
4.) What is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment if all people are to be saved? Revelation 20:11-15
5.) Do you believe that God will forgive Satan and the third of the fallen angels that were cast out of heaven when it is stated otherwise in the Holy Bible that they will be judged? 2 Peter 2:4, and; Revelation 20:10
I thank you both for your time and response,
Best Regards in Love and Truth,
Mike
Victor’s reply:
Mike, I will reply to your questions:
“Hi Paul and Victor
Yep, it seems like we still have the same disagreement and although you submit various scriptures to support your claim there are a few things I would like to ask. If it is true that all people will be saved as you say, please explain the following:
1.) Jesus’ warning of those who commit the unpardonable sin.
Mark 3:28-29, and; Luke 12:10 – also Revelation 16:9-11 and Revelation 16:21”
“Truly I say to you, All sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and blasphemies with which they shall blaspheme. But he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never shall have forgiveness, but is liable to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:28-29 MKJV).
“And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory. And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened. And they gnawed their tongues from the pain. And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds” (Revelation 16:9-11 MKJV).
“And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great” (Revelation 16:21 MKJV).
“And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven” (Luke 12:10 MKJV).
If you think there is never but never forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, let me ask you this: Do you not believe that Saul of Tarsus was blaspheming and even causing others to blaspheme? Here is his testimony:
“And I punished them often in every synagogue; I compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly furious against them, I persecuted them even to the outside cities” (Acts 26:11 MKJV).
He called himself the “chief of sinners.” How could he truthfully call himself such if he had not committed the chiefest of sins? And we know that the Lord turned Paul, even making him an example of how He came into the world to save sinners!
(Mark now, Mike, I give you not plain reasoning, but reasonable Scripture. You have asked us to explain these passages you present, which are very simple to us, and we respond. We will ask you to explain those we give you, and we expect a reasonable, applicable, Scriptural response.)
“2.) What happens to the souls of people whose names are blotted out of The Book of Life? Revelation 20:12-15”
“And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire” (Revelation 20:12-15 MKJV).
The Lake of Fire and what? Brimstone! (Sulphur, a purifying, not putrefying, agent. God is that consuming Fire. He is the purification, the Omega.
Blotted out for how long? Does it say? Not directly, but the Bible does say, as we declare, and not as you think. Consider these words of Paul the apostle concerning the Jews that were cast off:
“And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again” (Romans 11:23 MKJV).
If branches are cut off, are they not blotted out of the Book of Life? Consider that when a branch is cut off from a tree, it is immediately cut off from life. Yet, Paul says God can restore them, if He chooses. Is it not His will that none should perish? Is He not the Resurrection? He has even said in those same passages that He will do it:
“For when they were rejected, all other people were changed from God’s enemies into His friends. What will it be, then, when they are accepted? It will be life for the dead!” (Romans 11:15 GNB).
Now, Mike, I pray God to remove your religious, doctrinal blinders and read the following, verse by verse, with honesty and humility, instead of pride and stubbornness. Permit me to highlight some particularly pertinent words for you:
Romans 11:24-36 GNB
(24) You Gentiles are like the branch of a wild olive tree that is broken off and then, contrary to nature, is joined to a cultivated olive tree. The Jews are like this cultivated tree; and it will be much easier for God to join these broken-off branches to their own tree again.
(25) There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God.
(26) And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says, “The Savior will come from Zion and remove all wickedness from the descendants of Jacob.
(27) I will make this covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
(28) Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God’s enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God’s choice [not only are apostles chosen, remember?] they are His friends because of their ancestors.
(29) For God does not change His mind about whom He chooses and blesses.
(30) As for you Gentiles, you disobeyed God in the past; but now you have received God’s mercy because the Jews were disobedient.
(31) In the same way, because of the mercy that you have received, the Jews now disobey God, in order that they also may now receive God’s mercy.
(32) For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that He might show mercy to them all.
(33) How great are God’s riches! How deep are His wisdom and knowledge! Who can explain His decisions? Who can understand His ways?
(34) As the scripture says, “Who knows the mind of the Lord? Who is able to give Him advice?
(35) Who has ever given Him anything, so that He had to pay it back?”
(36) For all things were created by Him, and all things exist through Him and for Him. To God be the glory forever! Amen.
“3.) What happened to the souls of the people destroyed by the Great Flood in Noah’s day: Genesis 6:17, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed? Genesis 19:24-28, and; 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7”
“And behold! I, even I, am bringing a flood of waters upon the earth in order to destroy all flesh (in which is the breath of life) from under the heavens. Everything which is in the earth shall die” (Genesis 6:17 MKJV).
“Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from Jehovah out of the heavens. And He overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he stood before Jehovah. And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the lands of the plain, and saw, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace” (Genesis 19:24-28 MKJV).
“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, He condemned them with an overthrow, setting an example to men intending to live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6 MKJV).
“As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire” (Jude 1:7 MKJV).
I reply: “Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city” (Matthew 10:15 MKJV).
“More tolerable”? Shall God give tolerance to such as lived in Sodom and Gomorrah, who would have sexually assaulted angels? How so? And what for? Do you think He will simply give them less pain because “they did not deserve as much”? To what end? That they should remain continually in pain to whatever degree? To what end? Does God have a thermostat in hell, turned down for some, up for others? No more foolish, or blasphemous a doctrine about God can be taught, Mike. You may as well worship Allah and believe the Koran. There is no essential difference between your doctrinal interpretation of God and the Bible and that of Allah and the Koran.
When the KJV was translated, some of the pagan, Catholic concepts were retained in the wording and definitions of the words, but God is faithful, and has not left us to our own devices and folly. We can prove to you, by the Bible’s definitions of its own words, that the doctrines, interpretations and definitions imposed upon the Scriptures are false. For example, Paul will send you a document [The True, Scriptural Meanings of "Forever" and "Hell"] of the meaning of “forever and ever” and “everlasting,” not according to our present day concepts and definitions or dictionaries, but according to the Bible itself. Can you recommend a better or more truthful or valid a way? We don’t think so.
“4.) What is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment if all people are to be saved? Revelation 20:11-15”
“And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire” (Revelation 20:11-15 MKJV).
Directly or otherwise, Paul and I have amply expounded on this passage. You are being judged before that throne, Mike, even now, so that you might be purged and saved.
“5.) Do you believe that God will forgive Satan and the third of the fallen angels that were cast out of heaven when it is stated otherwise in the Holy Bible that they will be judged? 2 Peter 2:4, and; Revelation 20:10”
“For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment” (2 Peter 2:4 MKJV).
“And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10 MKJV).
We have expounded on this matter as well. These are simple enough to answer, Mike. How do you answer to reason and Truth, as preponderantly declared in the Scripture of Truth?
You write: “I thank you both for your time and response,
Best Regards in Love and Truth,
Mike.”
We will see the truth of your words; we will see.
Victor
Paul’s reply:
Hi Mike,
While we can answer such questions as those you pose to us here, truly the answers are already in the writings we have sent you. What we see happening is that you are still going on your doctrinal knee-jerk reaction, not seriously reading or considering what we have written. This does not serve you well. I expect that if we answer these objections, you will simply not listen to what we say, disagree, and walk away without having given the matter necessary due diligence. I hope I am wrong, but that is what I see.
As one person once said, most appropriately for you, Mike, and our conversation here (I paraphrase): “Don’t interpret the Bible by your doctrines, but judge your doctrines by the Bible.”
Our answers to your questions below; your letter in red:
Mike: Hi Paul and Victor
Yep, it seems like we still have the same disagreement and although you submit various scriptures to support your claim there are a few things I would like to ask. If it is true that all people will be saved as you say, please explain the following:
1.) Jesus’ warning of those who commit the unpardonable sin.
Mark 3:28-29, and; Luke 12:10 – also Revelation 16:9-11 and Revelation 16:21
Victor: If you think there is never but never forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, let me ask you this: Do you not believe that Saul of Tarsus was blaspheming and even causing others to blaspheme? Here is his testimony:
“And I punished them often in every synagogue; I compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly furious against them, I persecuted them even to the outside cities” (Acts 26:11 MKJV).
He called himself the “chief of sinners.” How could he truthfully call himself such if he had not committed the chief of sins? And we know that the Lord turned Paul, even making him an example of how He came into the world to save sinners!
Paul: Using Young’s Literal Translation, you’ll see that the words translated in the King James and elsewhere as “eternal damnation” mean something much different from what men commonly suppose they mean.
“Verily I say to you, that all the sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and evil speakings with which they might speak evil, but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit has not forgiveness–to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment” (Mark 3:28-29 YLT).
If a man speaks against me, I may forgive him. If a man speaks against the work of the Holy Spirit in or through me, I cannot forgive him. That man is blaspheming against God, and only “age-during judgment” can deal with his sin, if he persists (being “in danger” indicates it can be avoided). It was this kind of judgment that the Lord spoke of to the Pharisees, who also blasphemed the Holy Spirit:
“Serpents! Brood of vipers! How may you escape from the judgment of the Gehenna?” (Matthew 23:33 YLT)
In other words, they couldn’t escape. They weren’t presently being reconciled to God as were others, like the tax collectors and whores who confessed their sins. The Lord said to the blaspheming religious:
“Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots go into the Kingdom of God before you” (Matthew 21:31 MKJV).
Those whom the blasphemers disdained entered before them. That means the blasphemers would enter later. How so? They would be judged in Gehenna, by fire, as all men will be salted by fire (Mark 9:49).
They would suffer the fruits of their ways, so that they might be corrected (the holy intent of God’s judgment), not tormented or destroyed without hope (the unholy and vindictive intent of man’s judgment). Though they couldn’t receive forgiveness right then and there, the Lord specifically forgave those who crucified Him, on the cross:
“And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they have not known what they do” (Luke 23:34 YLT).
What you’re saying is that men can choose to accept or reject His forgiveness. What we’re showing you, in the writings and from many Scriptures, is that no one can resist His will. If He determines that all should come to repentance, entering into the forgiveness He made good by His blood shed for us, then so it will be. We’re giving God His due glory, whereas you are giving men the glory, though you don’t know or recognize it.
If it’s up to men to “accept” Jesus Christ as the Son of God, then men get the glory, having whereof to boast, as you do. If it’s up to God to turn a sinner to Himself, then God gets the glory. It’s that simple. (Read The False and Misleading Gospel of “Accepting” Jesus Christ.)
You bring up the verses in Revelation 16, where men suffering the plagues of God blaspheme Him, as if to imply eternal torment is their final condition. Who says? It doesn’t say so there. You’re reading things into the text, using your doctrine to interpret the Bible. Let the Bible form your doctrine, rather than the other way around.
It also says this in Revelation, after the 144,000 are sealed by God:
“After this I looked, and a vast host appeared, which it was impossible for anyone to count, gathered out of every nation and from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in long white robes, and carrying palm-branches in their hands. In loud voices they were exclaiming, ‘It is to our God Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, that we owe our salvation!’” (Revelation 7:9-10 WNT)
Not to their decision do men owe their salvation, but to His grace and mercy. Yes, Mike, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God!
Mike: 2.) What happens to the souls of people whose names are blotted out of The Book of Life? Revelation 20:12-15
Paul: You have just heard in my last answer. Here is another Scripture that confirms what I have told you:
“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out. And they will come from the east and the west, and the north and the south, and will recline to eat in the kingdom of God. And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last” (Luke 13:28-30 EMTV).
The last will still be last; that is, they will enter at last.
Mike: 3.) What happened to the souls of the people destroyed by the Great Flood in Noah’s day: Genesis 6:17, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed? Genesis 19:24-28, and; 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7
Paul: Mike, we have already written to you more than once about this, and it is in our writings. You are not paying attention. Jesus went in the Spirit and preached to those who perished in the flood:
“For Christ also suffered once to atone for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit, by Whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water” (1 Peter 3:18-20 EMTV).
Why would He preach to those in disobedience if they were condemned to “eternal damnation”? He also said it would be more tolerable for Sodom than it would be for certain cities that did not hear His Word (Matthew 10:15). In other words, there are degrees of hardness in judgment (correction), and to whom more is given, more will be required. You will pay to the last cent. What then?
Another Scripture that answers your question, which I also recently gave you:
“Unto this end was the gospel proclaimed also to those who are dead, in order that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but that they might live according to God in the spirit” (1 Peter 4:6 EMTV).
Mike: 4.) What is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment if all people are to be saved? Revelation 20:11-15
Paul: Salvation is the purpose of the Great White Throne Judgment! How else will men be saved if they are not judged? Judgment begins at the house of God. To what end are we judged? That we might be saved. It is the one that endures to the end that shall be saved (Matthew 10:22). We are judged that we might judge others. Even angels will be judged. Are you saying that since angels will be judged, that therefore they will be destroyed or tormented?
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we will judge angels?” (1 Corinthians 6:2-3 EMTV).
Today is the day of His judgment, Mike. We are, in Christ, His Great White Throne Judgment. That is the purpose of our contending for the faith, as Victor has written to you. Clearly it is God’s will that all men repent, that He might save them:
“So then these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man Whom He appointed, having given proof to all, by raising Him from the dead” (Acts 17:30-31 EMTV).
“And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world” (John 12:47 EMTV).
Judgment is not an end unto itself. Salvation is the end of judgment, as declared by the Lord Himself.
Mike: 5.) Do you believe that God will forgive Satan and the third of the fallen angels that were cast out of heaven when it is stated otherwise in the Holy Bible that they will be judged? 2 Peter 2:4, and; Revelation 20:10
Paul: Now that you have heard the meaning of judgment and of everlasting/eternal, you have your answer. All things are to be reconciled. The Lake of Fire puts an end to all that is unholy.
The saints will judge angels. Of what good is it for us to send angels to burn in hell forever? What right would we have to do so, if our salvation is by the sheer grace of God, due to no righteousness of our own? But it is a great thing, and to the glory of God, that we are here, not to impute sin, but to restore all things to Him in Christ.
God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the tempter who appeared in the garden. Furthermore, He created these things through Christ, Who has come to reconcile all things to God. When the agents of evil have served their purposes in mankind, as they have been created to do, they will also be reconciled to God. For it is written:
“Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thralldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour” (Romans 8:21-22 WNT).
Mike: I thank you both for your time and response,
Best Regards in Love and Truth,
Mike
Paul: How can you, with straight face, thank us for our time and responses when you do not pay attention or seriously consider what we say? We have asked you from the beginning to carefully and specifically refer to what we say, making sure you understand it first so you could engage us in a meaningful, intelligent conversation. While our responses to you have been meaningful, yours to us indicate that you have not done at all as would even be expected among the heathen, much more a professor of Christ.
You have reminded us in one of your recent letters that you had, in the past, commended us for our ministry. If we have a true ministry, it is from the Lord. In other words, you have confessed that we have something from God, but when we speak to you on a matter, you pay scant attention and blow off what we say, not even bothering to ascertain what it is. You are speaking from darkness and ignorance. And it is not just men whom you dishonor, but God, Who has given us our ministry to speak the Truth to you, the Word of God.
So your talk of thanks, love, and truth, is a large pile of manure, which you are ever heaping up because you think it is the “Christian” thing to do. It is not, Mike. The Lord is not a liar. He is the Truth. The Truth is that your attitude is far from thankful, and you are acting as a hater, not lover, of Truth. So forget trying to cover over what you are and how you are with platitudes. It does not fool the Lord. It angers Him. You need to repent of this very thing.
Paul
Mike’s response:
Hi Paul and Victor,
Sorry that you feel this way about my words to you:
“So your talk of thanks, love, and truth, is a large pile of manure, which you are ever heaping up because you think it is the “Christian” thing to do. It is not, Mike. The Lord is not a liar. He is the Truth. The Truth is, your attitude thus far is far from thankful, and you are acting as a hater, not lover, of Truth. So forget trying to cover over what you are and how you are with platitudes. It does not fool the Lord. It angers Him. You need to repent of this very thing.”
You are both in my prayers,
Mike
Victor’s reply:
Don’t quit on us now, Mike. We speak, knowing full well what we say and need to say, not for our sakes but for yours, in obedience to the One Who has commissioned us to do so. Don’t take the easy way out. We are not condemning but confronting you because you need to be confronted. Long enough have you lived with doctrine judged to be true and godly, without power to you or glory to Him.
The thing I would suggest (and I dearly hope you accept my suggestion) is to honestly, earnestly, responsibly answer our questions, and reply to our replies and Scriptures with explanation, backed by the Word of God rightly divided, with several Scriptural witnesses.
Let me be perfectly candid with you and tell you that, thus far, you have miserably failed to do so. If you were an honest man, you would admit it, and not simply bow out. If you have any desire to know God and to serve Him as you claim, you would hear us out and give us the balance of the equation to demonstrate not your wisdom but the power of God by His Word.
We obviously want to hear from you, for good. If you choose to go your way, your prayers are not with us at all. Whatever you pray, the Father will not hear. Your prayers will be anathema to Him – and you will know it.
Victor
Mike’s response:
Hi Victor and Paul,
I know you both mean well but with all due respect I have been honest in stating that we are in disagreement regarding the point of pre-destined Salvation and free-will. We could each present numerous points and counter-points of theological doctrine and debate with scriptural interpretation but all that would lead to is an ongoing argument that no one ever wins. That is what has caused such divisiveness throughout the world. Sorry, but I have presented my view as you have yours and really see no reason to continue with this debate.
Remember that the main message of Jesus is to reach mankind with the Good News that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life and no man can come unto the Father except through Him. Once an individual has truly repented and given Christ Lordship over his/her life the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell us as our Comforter, Teacher and Guide into Truth. I continue to trust God’s Holy Spirit in this regard.
You are both still in my prayers.
Mike
Paul’s reply:
Mike, out of everything we have said to you, and we have said much, in the end you chose to focus on a few words that took you to task for using your “Christian persona” to excuse yourself from your duty before God to hear His words and responsibly answer Him in truth. You profess to believe on Him but you choose to walk in the doctrine of your self-righteousness. Now, having committed yourself to that path, all you have left is your sham Christianity. I count for you the lies you speak:
Mike: Hi Victor and Paul,
I know you both mean well
Paul: In a recent letter you likened our behavior to that of John and James when they asked the Lord about calling fire down out of Heaven and He rebuked them saying, “You do not know what spirit you are of,” and NOT, “I know you both mean well.” Lie #1.
Mike: but with all due respect
Paul: Respect is when you listen to something someone says, especially one you acknowledge has something from God, and answer accordingly, being willing to be wrong for the sake of Truth when you cannot defend your stance, in which you think to preach the Gospel to others. You have not shown any respect for the Lord, the Truth, whatsoever. Lie #2.
Mike: I have been honest in stating that we are in disagreement regarding the point of pre-destined Salvation and free-will.
Paul: Honest or stubborn? Obviously we know you disagree. You get no credit for being honest about that which cannot be hidden. If you are right, we should stand corrected by hearing out your well-reasoned, verified-from-Scripture disagreement. But you have been dishonest in declaring yourself a lover and seeker of Truth, which is the real issue here, because you cannot defend your position, yet you maintain it, and yourself, by walking away. Lie #3.
Mike: We could each present numerous points and counter-points of theological doctrine and debate with scriptural interpretation but all that would lead to is an ongoing argument that no one ever wins.
Paul: We have presented numerous points and Scriptures (not just interpretations, but words that plainly say something we correctly point out), but you have not replied in kind. Since it is apparent we have said things you cannot answer, what makes you think we have not won the argument? We have, not that we were trying to win anything. We are sent to declare the Truth. Lie #4.
Mike: That is what has caused such divisiveness throughout the world.
Paul: Is divisiveness the issue here? We have never been united that we could be divided, Mike. Unity in Christ is only possible by walking together in the Light through the taking up of the cross. You have not done this or shared in this with us. We knew this from the beginning but did not condemn or reject you. We spoke the Truth to you and, when it became personal, you showed your true colors. You are at one with the world. As Victor said, in doctrine you are no different than the Muslims. Flesh is flesh. You are yet in your sins. Lie #5.
Mike: Sorry, but I have presented my view as you have yours and really see no reason to continue with this debate.
Paul: We did not just present our view. We gave you the Word of God for which you have no answer. At this point there is no debate; it is, on your part, a denial and total disregard of the Truth. Lie #6.
Mike: Remember that the main message of Jesus is to reach mankind with the Good News that He is The Way, The Truth and The Life and no man can come unto the Father except through Him.
Paul: You have missed the first and vital words of the Lord Jesus Christ, which are:
“Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17 EMTV). You have never repented, Mike. You have never had the real thing. How can you reach men with something you yourself do not have? One must be sent to “reach mankind.” He has not sent you. Lies #7 and #8.
Mike: Once an individual has truly repented and given Christ Lordship over his/her life
Paul: We cannot “give Christ Lordship.” You manifest your fallacy of self-righteousness right there, in those very words. Just who do you think you are that you can give Him anything? He is Lord. It is the Father Who has “given Him Lordship,” the Scriptures declare:
“Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a Name which is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11 MKJV).
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18 MKJV).
Saul of Tarsus did not “give Christ Lordship.” He asked, “Who are You, Lord?” He acknowledged Christ as Lord before he even knew Him, because it was given to him by grace through faith. You chose “Christ” as a work of the flesh, by your own will, but the Real Christ did not appear to you or choose you, Mike. As it is written:
“But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:12-13 MKJV).
You chose your own “Jesus,” a fake. Lie #9.
Mike: the Holy Spirit is sent to indwell us as our Comforter, Teacher and Guide into Truth.
Paul: You have only the doctrine or theory. Labels have no value on empty containers. What is worse, the container has something other than the label indicates; thus is the label deceptive and therefore discredits God. Having received a false Christ, so have you also received a false spirit. Lie #10.
Mike: I continue to trust God’s Holy Spirit in this regard.
Paul: It is in the false spirit that you trust, the one that causes you to make a show of being “Christian,” when all you say, as you can see, is rubbish. Lie #11.
Mike: You are both still in my prayers.
Paul: Your prayers, as Victor wrote, are anathema to God. He does not hear sinners, and we assure you that all liars are sinners that have their place in the Lake of Fire. Lie #12.
Mike: Mike
Paul: That is the only true thing you have said, your name, which by so doing you have taken ownership for all that you have said, and pay for it you will, the full price (Matthew 5:25-26).
Not in enmity of Mike, but of Mike’s darkness he calls light,
Paul
Mike’s response:
Hi Paul,
You wrote:
“Your prayers, as Victor wrote, are anathema to God. He does not hear sinners, and we assure you that all liars are sinners that have their place in the Lake of Fire.”
Hmmm… but don’t you both claim that all people are eventually forgiven and saved and that God doesn’t eternally punish His Children?
As stated, no further need to continue on with this debate. God and God alone is the Judge.
Mike
Victor’s reply:
Concerning the point you sarcastically raise, we answer:
We most certainly teach what the Scriptures teach, that all are eventually forgiven and that there is no endless punishment of torment, contrary to the bloodthirsty, hateful, self-righteous religious. Paul said nothing contradictory in his statement. In your willful ignorance, predisposed interpretations and stubbornness, you fail to understand. I suppose you assume that we view the Lake of Fire as eternal torment, or “punishment” as you call it. We don’t. Why should God punish anyone endlessly, especially His own children? To what end? To satisfy your bitterness?
However, He does chasten His children, and His children are thus counseled:
“Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!” (Romans 11:20-21 MKJV)
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive the things done through the body, according to that which he has done, whether good or bad. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men. But we are revealed to God, and I trust also that we are revealed in your consciences” (2 Corinthians 5:10-11 MKJV).
“Therefore, a promise being left to enter into His rest, let us fear lest any of you should seem to come short of it” (Hebrews 4:1 MKJV).
Why should there be such fear? Because, though we will all eventually be redeemed, there is judgment if we do not judge ourselves. If you had red The Good News, you would not be sarcastic or snide with us now, knowing much better.
Now the above Scriptures apply only to His children. Only His children can judge themselves. The unbelieving are called upon to repent, which is what we have done with you. How much more does judgment apply to you, for whom it will be far less tolerable now, because of your vain profession of faith and refusal to heed and believe!
How foolish of you to think you have uncovered a contradiction, Mike. There is so much more that you could have red of our material that would enlighten you of why Paul was able to say what he said, in perfect consistency with all else.
You strain out a gnat while swallowing camels, deliberately and solely looking for some fault or excuse to parry the Sword of Truth coming your way for your good, and you do it all in His Name, to your shame and demise. Your colors, those of a serpent, are manifestly out all the way now. We have drawn you out of your hole.
Indeed, Mike, you are of the generation of vipers, even as Jesus said;
stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart, even as Stephen said;
and in the gall of bitterness of Simon the believer, even as Peter said.
As Paul has specifically demonstrated, you are a liar and phony.
You, as the proud hypocrite you are, will not escape. Had you heeded, you could have been spared. Take then, the hard way, and you will know that the Lord has been supremely patient with you, and faithful to warn. You will never be able to accuse Him of injustice, though you will. The day will come when you will say, in your vain self-worth:
“It doesn’t pay to serve God. What do we ever get out of it? When we did what He said and went around with long faces, serious about GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies, what difference did it make? Those who take life into their own hands are the lucky ones. They break all the rules and get ahead anyway. They push God to the limit and get by with it” (Malachi 3:14-15 MSG).
In fulfillment of: “Enoch, the seventh after Adam, prophesied of them: ‘Look! The Master comes with thousands of holy angels to bring judgment against them all, convicting each person of every defiling act of shameless sacrilege, of every dirty word they have spewed of their pious filth’” (Jude 1:14-15 MSG).
Victor
Mike’s response:
Victor and Paul
Thank you both for your final words. You are both still in my prayers.
Mike