I would like to share something that i find very interesting about my guidance here to TPOT. A few months ago, some time before the Lord led me here, the Lord directed me to unsubscribe from all of the ministries on youtube to which i was listening, as well as stop reading so many "spiritual" books. I now understand that the main reason for this is because i have been a glutton for knowledge, which is why i have not been able, in times past, to bring all the knowledge into a cohesive and pratical unit. One of those ministers i had been listening to for years was Zac Poonen of Christian Fellowship Church in Banglore, India whom i highly esteemed. A few others were Leonard Ravenhill, Derek Prince, Paul Washer, William Gurnall (A Christian in Complete Armor) to name a few. It was as if the Lord took away all of the thrust i had going any further into much "Christian" teaching.
If Paul or Victor are guided to do a spiritual analysis of Zac Poonen, i would be interested to see what the Lord says. I was always searching vigorously through the internet to find ministries by which i could really be helped as well as function properly as part of God's Body but nothing (praise God for every joint that supplies help). I have also searched my locality and nothing but a desolate wilderness. I'm looking for that ancient path, the Faith once delivered to the Saints and i must say this Faith is so lacking as i hear, "Will I find faith on the earth." God bless us all in our endeavor to know and love Him more who first loved us. Please pray for me that i will be considered worthy to escape God's unrestrained wrath to come on all children of disobedience. Thank you and eagerly looking forward to growing with all of you.
The Father's Guidance
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Paul Cohen
Re: The Father's Guidance
Hebrews 13:9-14 MKJV
(9) Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped.
(10) We have an altar of which they have no right to eat, those who serve the tabernacle.
(11) For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the Holy of Holies by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp.
(12) Therefore Jesus also, so that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
(13) Therefore let us go forth to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
(14) For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
As for Zac Poonen, Israel, here is what he believes:
http://www.cfcindia.com/article/the-tru ... we-believe
How about comparing that to our Statement of Doctrine and other teachings on our site, letting us know what you find? This could be a worthwhile project!
(9) Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped.
(10) We have an altar of which they have no right to eat, those who serve the tabernacle.
(11) For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the Holy of Holies by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp.
(12) Therefore Jesus also, so that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
(13) Therefore let us go forth to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
(14) For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
As for Zac Poonen, Israel, here is what he believes:
http://www.cfcindia.com/article/the-tru ... we-believe
How about comparing that to our Statement of Doctrine and other teachings on our site, letting us know what you find? This could be a worthwhile project!
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Israel Lattimore
Re: The Father's Guidance
Yes Paul, Lord willing, i can answer this when the time and impetus is given for a concentrated
response. It is in my heart and mind.
response. It is in my heart and mind.
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Israel Lattimore
Re: The Father's Guidance
Let's begin with Zac's inexcusable notion of "trinity." Subsequent commentary will be made at another appointed time.
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
FATHER JOHN A. HARDON, S.J
"The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the most fundamental of our faith. On it everything else depends and from it everything else derives. Hence the Churchs constant concern to safeguard the revealed truth that God is One in nature and Three in Persons." If trinity is fundamental to their catholic faith, this should be enough for any spiritually discerning believer to steer clear.
Distinct could be defined as-
recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type or-
Physically separate
Neither of which describe the Godhead at all.
Now, one must emphasize the relevance and importance of the Lord referring to Himself as the Son of man as well as praying to the Father to glorify Him with the same glory He possessed before incarnating as a man on earth in this terrestrial plane.
If we use the definition for distinct-recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type, this cannot possibly describe the Godhead (which in Christ dwells the fullness) because Jesus said to His disciples that if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father. How could this be?
End of the whole trinity debate, let's begin from a common truth that no one, i've ever confronted, who confesses to be a "Christian" will disagree....if we are made in God's image, wholly as with Adam yet now disjointed because of sin (yet still made in God's image and in His likeness), are we as humans three distinct persons? And everyone answers with a resounding......NO (not to be facetious at all). The Trinity is CONFUSION but the Oneness of God is simple, i understand it by His revelation.
Here is the revelation that the Lord gave, for all intents and purposes.
The spirit man is unseen with the natural eye. The physical body is seen with the natural eye.
The human brain and central nervous system (or the soul, having a spiritual and physical "dimension" contained therein) acts as the liaison between the spirit and body; housing the intellect, will and emotions. The force or power/impetus that we receive to perform any physical task, such as speaking to give a great example, comes from the spirit. All things are dictated by the spirit...if you are evil you are given to an evil spirit, if righteous and holy then given to the Holy Spirit. The order is always as follows....Everything comes through the spirit to the mind and then to the physical body. This doesn't make humans three distinct persons because the mind, soul and body are inextricably linked, they are ONE. This is why the Lord says that no man can serve two masters, it is impossible because when you give your physical members to service you risk becoming espoused to that thing.
Statement by Mr. Poonen-
"The Bible teaches that God is One and also that there are three Persons in this One God.
Since numbers belong to the material world, and since God is Spirit, our finite mind cannot grasp this truth fully, even as a small cup cannot contain the water in an ocean.
A dog cannot understand multiplication - how three ones when multiplied can still be one: 1x1x1=1. Neither can we understand how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. A dog can understand only another dog. He cannot understand a man fully. In the same way, a god that could be explained and understood by our human reason would only be another man just like ourselves. The very fact that the God of the Bible transcends our reason is the clearest evidence that this is indeed the truth.
The truth of the Trinity is clear from the first verse of the Bible, where the word for `God' is plural in the Hebrew - `Elohim'. We also see it in the use of the words `Us' and `Our' in Gen. 1:26. The light is focused more clearly at the baptism of Jesus, where the Father (voice from heaven), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit (in the form of a dove) are all present (Matt. 3:16,17)."
Wikipedia to save the day here (normally i wouldn't recommend it)-
"Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים) is a grammatically SINGULAR or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and Biblical Hebrew. Despite the -im ending common to many plural masculine nouns in Hebrew, the word is grammatically SINGULAR, and takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible when referring to God."
Mr. Poonen asserts that God is plural as well as declaring his own confusion on the subject. This is actually a fairly rudimentary problem. He states that one cannot understand the trinity with the natural mind but this is why we are given the Mind of Christ to know those things that some, in prior generations, desired to know but could not. Nothing can be understood with the natural mind besides eat, sleep and poop. It seems that there is an identity crisis being displayed in his words. If one cannot see and understand the Creator's nature of being ONE then one doesn't understand his or her own existence/identity. Or is unbelief the root of the issue here? Perhaps those who propagate the trinity don't really believe that we are made in His image and likeness. Confusion is just that, an entangled mess.......
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
FATHER JOHN A. HARDON, S.J
"The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the most fundamental of our faith. On it everything else depends and from it everything else derives. Hence the Churchs constant concern to safeguard the revealed truth that God is One in nature and Three in Persons." If trinity is fundamental to their catholic faith, this should be enough for any spiritually discerning believer to steer clear.
Distinct could be defined as-
recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type or-
Physically separate
Neither of which describe the Godhead at all.
Now, one must emphasize the relevance and importance of the Lord referring to Himself as the Son of man as well as praying to the Father to glorify Him with the same glory He possessed before incarnating as a man on earth in this terrestrial plane.
If we use the definition for distinct-recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type, this cannot possibly describe the Godhead (which in Christ dwells the fullness) because Jesus said to His disciples that if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father. How could this be?
End of the whole trinity debate, let's begin from a common truth that no one, i've ever confronted, who confesses to be a "Christian" will disagree....if we are made in God's image, wholly as with Adam yet now disjointed because of sin (yet still made in God's image and in His likeness), are we as humans three distinct persons? And everyone answers with a resounding......NO (not to be facetious at all). The Trinity is CONFUSION but the Oneness of God is simple, i understand it by His revelation.
Here is the revelation that the Lord gave, for all intents and purposes.
The spirit man is unseen with the natural eye. The physical body is seen with the natural eye.
The human brain and central nervous system (or the soul, having a spiritual and physical "dimension" contained therein) acts as the liaison between the spirit and body; housing the intellect, will and emotions. The force or power/impetus that we receive to perform any physical task, such as speaking to give a great example, comes from the spirit. All things are dictated by the spirit...if you are evil you are given to an evil spirit, if righteous and holy then given to the Holy Spirit. The order is always as follows....Everything comes through the spirit to the mind and then to the physical body. This doesn't make humans three distinct persons because the mind, soul and body are inextricably linked, they are ONE. This is why the Lord says that no man can serve two masters, it is impossible because when you give your physical members to service you risk becoming espoused to that thing.
Statement by Mr. Poonen-
"The Bible teaches that God is One and also that there are three Persons in this One God.
Since numbers belong to the material world, and since God is Spirit, our finite mind cannot grasp this truth fully, even as a small cup cannot contain the water in an ocean.
A dog cannot understand multiplication - how three ones when multiplied can still be one: 1x1x1=1. Neither can we understand how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. A dog can understand only another dog. He cannot understand a man fully. In the same way, a god that could be explained and understood by our human reason would only be another man just like ourselves. The very fact that the God of the Bible transcends our reason is the clearest evidence that this is indeed the truth.
The truth of the Trinity is clear from the first verse of the Bible, where the word for `God' is plural in the Hebrew - `Elohim'. We also see it in the use of the words `Us' and `Our' in Gen. 1:26. The light is focused more clearly at the baptism of Jesus, where the Father (voice from heaven), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit (in the form of a dove) are all present (Matt. 3:16,17)."
Wikipedia to save the day here (normally i wouldn't recommend it)-
"Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים) is a grammatically SINGULAR or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and Biblical Hebrew. Despite the -im ending common to many plural masculine nouns in Hebrew, the word is grammatically SINGULAR, and takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible when referring to God."
Mr. Poonen asserts that God is plural as well as declaring his own confusion on the subject. This is actually a fairly rudimentary problem. He states that one cannot understand the trinity with the natural mind but this is why we are given the Mind of Christ to know those things that some, in prior generations, desired to know but could not. Nothing can be understood with the natural mind besides eat, sleep and poop. It seems that there is an identity crisis being displayed in his words. If one cannot see and understand the Creator's nature of being ONE then one doesn't understand his or her own existence/identity. Or is unbelief the root of the issue here? Perhaps those who propagate the trinity don't really believe that we are made in His image and likeness. Confusion is just that, an entangled mess.......
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Israel Lattimore
Re: The Father's Guidance
The foremost and most prominent of His Commandments,
"Hear, Israel [distinguishing Himself as well as those who hear, being Israel only]: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is ONE. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might."
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 WEB
http://bible.com/206/deu.6.4-5.WEB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Hear, Israel [distinguishing Himself as well as those who hear, being Israel only]: Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is ONE. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might."
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 WEB
http://bible.com/206/deu.6.4-5.WEB" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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issieb
Re: The Father's Guidance
Israel, in reply to your thread and this coming from a simple single mother of three kids. I searched for many years for answers from pastors, churches, internet, books etc. Throughout my 20 years of searching I never truly felt I found the answers. Then one day I was praying to God and it just came to me. There is no need to search throughout the world for answers, everything is there already - prayer is underestimated and the power of prayer has brought me all the answers I need, along with God's Holy Word.
People will never replace what God can provide, be it in every day life, illness, pain and suffering etc. God is all around us at all times and that is what makes Him the be all and end all. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross for us and I don't believe any longer in feeling guilty about not knowing everything there is to know about religion or people or having to prove myself. I have the Holy Spirit within me and have discernment from God and my eyes can see.
So you see, there is no need for endless research and putting yourself through all that pain of wondering who or what to believe in. Just trust in God, pray sincerely, read God's Holy Word and allow the Holy Spirit to come into you and guide you with ease.
I am new to this forum and don't wish to come across as patronising or as a know-it-all, I just want my experience in finding God to be an example as I put myself through years of anguish and suffering only for God to tell me there's no need, His love provides all the answers. May God bless you all.
People will never replace what God can provide, be it in every day life, illness, pain and suffering etc. God is all around us at all times and that is what makes Him the be all and end all. Jesus Christ suffered on the cross for us and I don't believe any longer in feeling guilty about not knowing everything there is to know about religion or people or having to prove myself. I have the Holy Spirit within me and have discernment from God and my eyes can see.
So you see, there is no need for endless research and putting yourself through all that pain of wondering who or what to believe in. Just trust in God, pray sincerely, read God's Holy Word and allow the Holy Spirit to come into you and guide you with ease.
I am new to this forum and don't wish to come across as patronising or as a know-it-all, I just want my experience in finding God to be an example as I put myself through years of anguish and suffering only for God to tell me there's no need, His love provides all the answers. May God bless you all.
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Paul Cohen
Re: The Father's Guidance
That’s some quote from “Father” Hardin of the Catholic Church, Israel:
“The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the most fundamental of our faith. On it everything else depends and from it everything else derives. Hence the Church’s constant concern to safeguard the revealed truth that God is One in nature and Three in Persons.”
And don’t we find members of the false church of many denominations defending the Trinity gods? They think they’ve parted from the Catholic Church, but they’re really following Catholic doctrine, the strange gods of heathen and not the Lord Jesus Christ Who is revealed from Heaven.
Then there's this astounding quote and piece of confusion from Zac Poonen, where he openly admits he doesn’t know the Lord by revelation or what he’s talking about when trying to understand God as “the Trinity”:
“A dog cannot understand multiplication - how three ones when multiplied can still be one: 1x1x1=1. Neither can we understand how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. A dog can understand only another dog. He cannot understand a man fully. In the same way, a god that could be explained and understood by our human reason would only be another man just like ourselves. The very fact that the God of the Bible transcends our reason is the clearest evidence that this is indeed the truth.”
The apostle Paul clearly addressed this matter with the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 MKJV
(11) For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Paul’s words to the Athenians also apply to Zac Poonen and his followers:
“You men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you” (Acts 17:22-23 KJV).
We recently received an email from Donna Giovanni saying this about Zac Poonen:
“I have only found one man so far who preaches what he believes & does not ask for money...Zac Poonen.”
I replied:
Many preach what they believe (there are some outright shysters who knowingly preach whatever serves their ambitions without any convictions whatsoever), but who preaches the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? Zac doesn’t.
To begin with, he preaches another god, the “Trinity,” an abominable doctrine that desecrates the One True God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Read our section on this - The Trinity, starting with The Gospel According to Trinitarians.
Proceeding from there, Zac preaches the most blasphemous of Diabolical Doctrines coming out of false Christianity, Never-ending Torment.
As for not asking for money, that certainly separates Zac from the crowd of beggars who populate false Christendom, but of itself this isn’t a mark of true faith in Christ. Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1st letter, chapter 13) that you could give all your goods to feed the poor and lay down your body to be burned, yet still not have the love of God (faith in action).
There are some indicators that Zac’s “financial policy” (http://www.cfcindia.com/our-financial-policy) isn’t of faith. I’ll take it point by point:
1. Are you a born-again child of God? It is a great honour and privilege to support the work of God on earth; but that privilege is given only to His born-again children (3 John 7).
It’s true that offerings in the Body of Christ are made by those who receive the ministry of God, but is it only limited to those? Not necessarily. Didn’t the queen of Sheba and other heathen bring offerings when Solomon was building the temple, which the Lord said was a “house of prayer for all nations”? Who is Zac to limit who can give, if the Lord moves their hearts?
2. Do you have enough money for your family's needs? Are you sure that your giving will not put your family under any financial strain? You must take care of your family's needs first (1 Tim.5:8). Our Father in heaven is very rich and He (like any rich earthly father) does not want any of His children to starve or suffer in any way, just because they gave Him money for His work.
Then what about the poor widow the Lord commended?
Mark 12:42-44 ESV
(42) And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny.
(43) And He called His disciples to Him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box.
(44) For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”
Do you think she went without, because she honored God before her own needs? That will never happen.
“I have been young, and now am old, yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging for bread. He is ever lending generously, and his children become a blessing” (Psalms 37:25-26 ESV).
What do these words mean to you?
Matthew 6:31-33 MKJV
(31) Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, With what shall we be clothed?
(32) For the nations seek after all these things. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.
(33) But seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
And what about the widow in the days of Elijah, during the drought?
1 Kings 17:8-16 MKJV
(8) And the Word of the LORD came to him, saying,
(9) Arise, go to Zarephath which belongs to Sidon, and live there. Behold, I have commanded a widow to keep you there.
(10) And he arose and went to Zarephath, and came in to the entrance of the city, and, behold, the widow was gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, Please, bring me a little water in a vessel so that I may drink.
(11) And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, Please, bring me a piece of bread in your hand.
(12) And she said, As the LORD your God lives, I do not have a cake, but only a handful of meal in a pitcher and a little oil in a jar. And behold, I am gathering two sticks, so that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, so that we may eat it and die.
(13) And Elijah said to her, Do not fear, go. Do as you have said. But first make me a little cake of it, and bring it to me. And then make for you and for your son.
(14) For so says the LORD, the God of Israel, The pitcher of meal shall not be emptied, nor shall the jar of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sends rain on the earth.
(15) And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah. And she and he and her house ate many days;
(16) the pitcher of meal was not consumed, and the jar of oil did not fail, according to the Word of the LORD which He spoke by Elijah.
Zac speaks man’s reasoning and not according to the faith of Christ.
3. Do you have any large debts to repay? If so, do clear those debts first. God wants His children to live restful lives, free from all debt. We must first give to Caesar what is his, before we can give anything to God, because God does not want us to give Him Caesar's money, or anyone else's money (Matt.22:21; Rom.13:8).
(Note: A house-loan is not a "debt" (in the meaning in these verses), because the house is an asset that you posses that is equal in value to the loan taken. For the same reason, a vehicle-loan is also not a debt - provided the vehicle is insured for the value of the loan taken).
Our first debt is to God, not that we can pay for our salvation, but we all owe Him big-time. Honoring Him comes before all other obligations, for those who believe.
Malachi 3:8-12 MKJV
(8) Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, In what have we robbed You? In the tithe and the offering!
(9) You are cursed with a curse; for you are robbing Me, the nation, all of it.
(10) Bring all the tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house. And test Me now with this, says the LORD of Hosts, to see if I will not open the windows of Heaven for you, and pour out a blessing for you, until there is not enough room.
(11) And I will rebuke your devourer, and he shall not decay the fruit of your ground against you; nor shall your vine miscarry against you in the field, says the LORD of Hosts.
(12) And all nations shall call you blessed; for you shall be a delightful land, says the LORD of Hosts.
4. Do you have a clear conscience? Have you done your best to be reconciled with those whom you have hurt in any way? God will not accept any offering from anyone who has hurt someone and still not apologised to that person (Matt.5:23, 24)
The problem here is that Zac’s guidelines can be understood in whatever way the carnal man is inclined, whether through the lusts of the flesh or a faulty conscience that lacks the knowledge and faith of Christ.
“Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful” (Proverbs 27:6 MKJV).
Shall you apologize for inflicting hurt as a friend? Will you be justified before God when siding with the flesh against Him, strengthening others in sin?
If one has the faith to give, should he be burdened with trying to figure out his motives and stance with God? Yes we need to examine ourselves whether we are in the faith or not, but this is God’s judgment and work, not our own.
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man’s judgment. Yes, I don’t judge my own self. For I know nothing against myself. Yet I am not justified by this, but He Who judges me is the Lord” (1 Corinthians 4:3-4 WEB).
“Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you” (Philippians 3:15 MKJV).
5. Are you giving freely and cheerfully - and not under pressure from any man or even from your own conscience? God loves cheerful givers, not reluctant givers. He does not want gifts from those who give under pressure, or who give in order to fulfill some obligation, or who give merely to ease their conscience, or who give in order to get some reward from Him in return (2 Cor.9:7).
Some good things to consider there, but once again, one needs to walk by faith, and overall, Zac goes by carnal sight and teaches others to do so.
You continue:
“Now he may make mistakes b/c NONE of us has all the truth but I do admire the Spirit of the Lord in him.”
Speak for yourself and your teachers, but true believers with God’s Spirit have “all the truth,” because they have the Lord Jesus Christ. If Zac Poonen was speaking by the Spirit of Truth, he wouldn’t be teaching falsehoods as a presumed man of God. Share this with him (if you can reach him) and see how he reacts. You will see he won’t receive correction or change his ways – he’s too rich in himself. That’s not the Spirit of the Lord you’re admiring, Donna – it’s Zac’s righteousness.
You say you know that “the church system is a mixture,” yet here you are giving kudos to one of its promoters. What kind of influence is that on the naïve and ignorant? Don’t you realize that mixture is a destroyer that invites God’s wrath on those who take His Name in vain? Read Incompatible Mixture in order to know it.
“The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the most fundamental of our faith. On it everything else depends and from it everything else derives. Hence the Church’s constant concern to safeguard the revealed truth that God is One in nature and Three in Persons.”
And don’t we find members of the false church of many denominations defending the Trinity gods? They think they’ve parted from the Catholic Church, but they’re really following Catholic doctrine, the strange gods of heathen and not the Lord Jesus Christ Who is revealed from Heaven.
Then there's this astounding quote and piece of confusion from Zac Poonen, where he openly admits he doesn’t know the Lord by revelation or what he’s talking about when trying to understand God as “the Trinity”:
“A dog cannot understand multiplication - how three ones when multiplied can still be one: 1x1x1=1. Neither can we understand how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. A dog can understand only another dog. He cannot understand a man fully. In the same way, a god that could be explained and understood by our human reason would only be another man just like ourselves. The very fact that the God of the Bible transcends our reason is the clearest evidence that this is indeed the truth.”
The apostle Paul clearly addressed this matter with the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 MKJV
(11) For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Paul’s words to the Athenians also apply to Zac Poonen and his followers:
“You men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore you ignorantly worship, Him declare I unto you” (Acts 17:22-23 KJV).
We recently received an email from Donna Giovanni saying this about Zac Poonen:
“I have only found one man so far who preaches what he believes & does not ask for money...Zac Poonen.”
I replied:
Many preach what they believe (there are some outright shysters who knowingly preach whatever serves their ambitions without any convictions whatsoever), but who preaches the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? Zac doesn’t.
To begin with, he preaches another god, the “Trinity,” an abominable doctrine that desecrates the One True God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Read our section on this - The Trinity, starting with The Gospel According to Trinitarians.
Proceeding from there, Zac preaches the most blasphemous of Diabolical Doctrines coming out of false Christianity, Never-ending Torment.
As for not asking for money, that certainly separates Zac from the crowd of beggars who populate false Christendom, but of itself this isn’t a mark of true faith in Christ. Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1st letter, chapter 13) that you could give all your goods to feed the poor and lay down your body to be burned, yet still not have the love of God (faith in action).
There are some indicators that Zac’s “financial policy” (http://www.cfcindia.com/our-financial-policy) isn’t of faith. I’ll take it point by point:
1. Are you a born-again child of God? It is a great honour and privilege to support the work of God on earth; but that privilege is given only to His born-again children (3 John 7).
It’s true that offerings in the Body of Christ are made by those who receive the ministry of God, but is it only limited to those? Not necessarily. Didn’t the queen of Sheba and other heathen bring offerings when Solomon was building the temple, which the Lord said was a “house of prayer for all nations”? Who is Zac to limit who can give, if the Lord moves their hearts?
2. Do you have enough money for your family's needs? Are you sure that your giving will not put your family under any financial strain? You must take care of your family's needs first (1 Tim.5:8). Our Father in heaven is very rich and He (like any rich earthly father) does not want any of His children to starve or suffer in any way, just because they gave Him money for His work.
Then what about the poor widow the Lord commended?
Mark 12:42-44 ESV
(42) And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny.
(43) And He called His disciples to Him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box.
(44) For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”
Do you think she went without, because she honored God before her own needs? That will never happen.
“I have been young, and now am old, yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging for bread. He is ever lending generously, and his children become a blessing” (Psalms 37:25-26 ESV).
What do these words mean to you?
Matthew 6:31-33 MKJV
(31) Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, With what shall we be clothed?
(32) For the nations seek after all these things. For your heavenly Father knows that you have need of all these things.
(33) But seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
And what about the widow in the days of Elijah, during the drought?
1 Kings 17:8-16 MKJV
(8) And the Word of the LORD came to him, saying,
(9) Arise, go to Zarephath which belongs to Sidon, and live there. Behold, I have commanded a widow to keep you there.
(10) And he arose and went to Zarephath, and came in to the entrance of the city, and, behold, the widow was gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, Please, bring me a little water in a vessel so that I may drink.
(11) And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, Please, bring me a piece of bread in your hand.
(12) And she said, As the LORD your God lives, I do not have a cake, but only a handful of meal in a pitcher and a little oil in a jar. And behold, I am gathering two sticks, so that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, so that we may eat it and die.
(13) And Elijah said to her, Do not fear, go. Do as you have said. But first make me a little cake of it, and bring it to me. And then make for you and for your son.
(14) For so says the LORD, the God of Israel, The pitcher of meal shall not be emptied, nor shall the jar of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sends rain on the earth.
(15) And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah. And she and he and her house ate many days;
(16) the pitcher of meal was not consumed, and the jar of oil did not fail, according to the Word of the LORD which He spoke by Elijah.
Zac speaks man’s reasoning and not according to the faith of Christ.
3. Do you have any large debts to repay? If so, do clear those debts first. God wants His children to live restful lives, free from all debt. We must first give to Caesar what is his, before we can give anything to God, because God does not want us to give Him Caesar's money, or anyone else's money (Matt.22:21; Rom.13:8).
(Note: A house-loan is not a "debt" (in the meaning in these verses), because the house is an asset that you posses that is equal in value to the loan taken. For the same reason, a vehicle-loan is also not a debt - provided the vehicle is insured for the value of the loan taken).
Our first debt is to God, not that we can pay for our salvation, but we all owe Him big-time. Honoring Him comes before all other obligations, for those who believe.
Malachi 3:8-12 MKJV
(8) Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me. But you say, In what have we robbed You? In the tithe and the offering!
(9) You are cursed with a curse; for you are robbing Me, the nation, all of it.
(10) Bring all the tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house. And test Me now with this, says the LORD of Hosts, to see if I will not open the windows of Heaven for you, and pour out a blessing for you, until there is not enough room.
(11) And I will rebuke your devourer, and he shall not decay the fruit of your ground against you; nor shall your vine miscarry against you in the field, says the LORD of Hosts.
(12) And all nations shall call you blessed; for you shall be a delightful land, says the LORD of Hosts.
4. Do you have a clear conscience? Have you done your best to be reconciled with those whom you have hurt in any way? God will not accept any offering from anyone who has hurt someone and still not apologised to that person (Matt.5:23, 24)
The problem here is that Zac’s guidelines can be understood in whatever way the carnal man is inclined, whether through the lusts of the flesh or a faulty conscience that lacks the knowledge and faith of Christ.
“Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful” (Proverbs 27:6 MKJV).
Shall you apologize for inflicting hurt as a friend? Will you be justified before God when siding with the flesh against Him, strengthening others in sin?
If one has the faith to give, should he be burdened with trying to figure out his motives and stance with God? Yes we need to examine ourselves whether we are in the faith or not, but this is God’s judgment and work, not our own.
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by man’s judgment. Yes, I don’t judge my own self. For I know nothing against myself. Yet I am not justified by this, but He Who judges me is the Lord” (1 Corinthians 4:3-4 WEB).
“Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be of this mind. And if in anything you are otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this to you” (Philippians 3:15 MKJV).
5. Are you giving freely and cheerfully - and not under pressure from any man or even from your own conscience? God loves cheerful givers, not reluctant givers. He does not want gifts from those who give under pressure, or who give in order to fulfill some obligation, or who give merely to ease their conscience, or who give in order to get some reward from Him in return (2 Cor.9:7).
Some good things to consider there, but once again, one needs to walk by faith, and overall, Zac goes by carnal sight and teaches others to do so.
You continue:
“Now he may make mistakes b/c NONE of us has all the truth but I do admire the Spirit of the Lord in him.”
Speak for yourself and your teachers, but true believers with God’s Spirit have “all the truth,” because they have the Lord Jesus Christ. If Zac Poonen was speaking by the Spirit of Truth, he wouldn’t be teaching falsehoods as a presumed man of God. Share this with him (if you can reach him) and see how he reacts. You will see he won’t receive correction or change his ways – he’s too rich in himself. That’s not the Spirit of the Lord you’re admiring, Donna – it’s Zac’s righteousness.
You say you know that “the church system is a mixture,” yet here you are giving kudos to one of its promoters. What kind of influence is that on the naïve and ignorant? Don’t you realize that mixture is a destroyer that invites God’s wrath on those who take His Name in vain? Read Incompatible Mixture in order to know it.
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Paul Cohen
Re: The Father's Guidance
Hi Issie, and welcome to the forum. Do I have your name right?
I think you’ve misunderstood Israel’s post here, and what we’re doing. We’re not wondering who or what to believe in. We know Jesus Christ is Lord. We aren’t trying to figure God out, but are examining the teachings of those who think they have figured Him out and present their carnal reasonings as the Gospel of Christ, thereby confusing people and keeping them in the hell you described you were in.
So we aren’t laying burdens on believers - we’re removing the burdens imposed by the wolves and counterfeiters who deceitfully present themselves as representatives of the Lord Jesus Christ. We didn’t come to know God by our works or ability to comprehend Him, but by His grace by which He made Himself known to us according to revelation, just as you describe of yourself.
We certainly aren’t advocating that believers not “pray always,” or that they lean on their own understanding. If you're the Lord's, you will acknowledge Him in ALL your ways. We advocate that you be as wise as a serpent, yet harmless as a dove.
Don't you find letters like Romans and Hebrews, which explain matters of faith, helpful? Why did God give them to us if we don’t need to search these things out and grow in our understanding?
And remember, it’s not the “power of prayer” that gave you any understanding you might have, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself Who gave you to pray and believe, according to His faith. He is everything for us.
I think you’ve misunderstood Israel’s post here, and what we’re doing. We’re not wondering who or what to believe in. We know Jesus Christ is Lord. We aren’t trying to figure God out, but are examining the teachings of those who think they have figured Him out and present their carnal reasonings as the Gospel of Christ, thereby confusing people and keeping them in the hell you described you were in.
So we aren’t laying burdens on believers - we’re removing the burdens imposed by the wolves and counterfeiters who deceitfully present themselves as representatives of the Lord Jesus Christ. We didn’t come to know God by our works or ability to comprehend Him, but by His grace by which He made Himself known to us according to revelation, just as you describe of yourself.
We certainly aren’t advocating that believers not “pray always,” or that they lean on their own understanding. If you're the Lord's, you will acknowledge Him in ALL your ways. We advocate that you be as wise as a serpent, yet harmless as a dove.
Don't you find letters like Romans and Hebrews, which explain matters of faith, helpful? Why did God give them to us if we don’t need to search these things out and grow in our understanding?
And remember, it’s not the “power of prayer” that gave you any understanding you might have, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself Who gave you to pray and believe, according to His faith. He is everything for us.