New Teaching - House Pets

Our complete paper can be found here.
Ronnie Tanner
Forum Admin
Posts: 1651
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
Location: Helena, Montana

New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Ronnie Tanner »

11/21/16: We have a new Teaching:

House Pets

Living with pets in the home is very commonplace in our culture and very few think anything of it. Keeping pets is an often-overlooked matter that causes great loss and suffering.

Michael Demerling

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Michael Demerling »

Thank you Martin,

For writing this paper. It made me smile where you wrote:

"I have affection for our farm animals. I care for them and appreciate the personalities that God has given them, but they all serve a purpose and they don't live in my house."

Michael

Ronnie Tanner
Forum Admin
Posts: 1651
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
Location: Helena, Montana

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Ronnie Tanner »

The following thread was started on November 21, 2016 when Victor shared the House Pets paper on Facebook.

Victor Hafichuk wrote:
A pet subject, bound to ruffle feathers and seem like we're reversing strokes.

House Pets

Living with pets in the home is very commonplace in our culture and very few think anything of it. Keeping pets is an often-overlooked matter that causes great loss and suffering. Physically, spiritually, financially.


Dell:

I disagree with this with 100% of my being. No religion is going to dictate to me about my dogs. They are cherished members of my family and are always by my side, they dont judge me , they show me love and loyalty which is a lot more than you can say about most humans.

Sheila:

It's amazing how some people can turn anything into a religious belief, wow!.
#lovemypets

Victor:

Sheila, this is not a matter of religion but of common sense, true science, and facts. That said, God is not about religion, as most suppose, but all about Truth and reality.

Beryl :

Agreed. Thank you, Victor!

Victor:

Hi Dell,

I thought I posted before this portion on dogs but it’s missing so I will post here now. Sorry about that. So perhaps you can read the Scripture portions of Jesus Christ’s Words again after reading this part I somehow missed:

One, in thinking about your response to my post on House Pets, I wondered if perhaps you felt I was purposely aiming at you because coincidentally, you and I met only on a walk the day before and visited while your dogs were with you. You weren’t remotely on my mind when I posted.

Two, I have the impression you may not have quite understood what the article was saying. True, I can see where you’ll disagree; however, I also think you could use a second or third read of the article to capture the essence of what was written. I find I often need to do that before drawing conclusions on anything I read.

Three, while God created man in His image, to be like Him, and is in the process of doing so as we speak, He created no other creature to be in His likeness, not even friendly cats and dogs.

Four, no doubt there isn’t another creature in Heaven or on earth that can be as corrupt and wicked as man. That goes for every man ever born aside from Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I was there right along them all until the Lord turned my life around, being merciful. Initially, we’re all capable of the worst; you are, I am, none is exempt but by His grace.



Betty:

Victor, Dell mentioned chatting with you on his walk. He told me that he enjoyed the visit, much like I enjoyed sharing in the beautiful sunrise that you and I saw not so long ago. We have always felt that we have wonderful neighbors in you and your wife. I certainly hope this does not get tarnished because we may not look at things in exactly the same way.

Victor:

It'll be your call on that, Betty. We reject nobody.


Victor:

Continuing: ... Of dogs, He has also had things to say that I think we can relate to this thread:

Matthew 15:22-26 MKJV
(22) And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon.
(23) But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and begged Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries after us.
(24) But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(25) Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me!
(26) But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and to throw it to dogs.

He did not condemn dogs but neither did He give them a place or dignity of a human being. To do so would be an insult, even if unwittingly, to Jesus Christ. Even human family, He said, is to be forsaken for a heavenly family if we are to believe on and follow Him, worshiping Him in spirit and in truth:

Matthew 10:35-39 MKJV
(35) For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
(36) And a man's foes shall be those of his own household.
(37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
(38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
(39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.

Matthew 12:46-50 MKJV
(46) But while He yet talked with the people, behold, His mother and His brothers stood outside, desiring to speak with Him.
(47) Then one said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers stand outside, desiring to speak with You.
(48) And He answered and said to him who told Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers?
(49) And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!
(50) For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother.


Betty:

Oh my goodness,....where do I begin? I usually try and stay away from these sorts of 'rants', because, in my opinion, they border on the rantings of radical zealots or fanatics. I believe that things like this 'animal' issue detract from our glorifying of the Lord, all this does is get us fighting amoung ourselves and what have we accomplished? Having said that,.....I have MUCH to say on this subject. God created the animals. They are not the product of happenstance. God comunicates with animals. The best example of this would be the migration of the animals to Noah's ark. They (the animals) didn't show up at the ark by mistake or curiosity, no, they were 'led' there by their own Creator. God cares about the animals. In the sroty of Jonah, after Jonah had preached to the people of Ninevah, and they repented, Jonah was not very happy with God's decision to spare them. When God spoke to Jonah about his hard heart, God reminded Jonah about the 120,000 people spared and "many animals" also spared. (Jon 4:11) The well being of these animals mattered to God, as well as the lives of the people of Ninevah. God makes certain of the feeding of animals.

Victor:

Hi Betty, I fully agree that God loves ALL of His creation. You'll find nothing in the article that says anything contrary. I'm surprised that you take it that way and tell me things I myself believe.

No fanaticism here, Betty, only common sense, science and facts speaking, along with Scriptural substantiation, as I said to another participant here. Is that wrong of me?

We're farmers, Betty J.; we care and look after our animals, every species, both clean and unclean, as the Lord has designated.

Betty:

Victor, you will notice that I as well am using scripture to support my views.

Betty:

I happen to think it is common sense that if you don't want an animal in your home as a pet, then don't have one. Very simple. Should you have one,...look after it and be responsible for it. I agree, "the crazy cat lady" is bizarre. Mental health issues probably there long before this person starts to 'aquire' cats.

Betty:

Psalm 104:14 is instructive here, it says, God "causes" the grass to grow for the cattle. God reminded Job that it is he who provides for the animals. (Job 38:39-41). Psalm 148, the psalmist called upon everything to praise the Lord. He included beasts, cattle, creeping things and birds. (vv 7,10) Animals can reason. Num 22: 21-33, Balaam and his donkey encounter the Angel of the Lord. The donkey sees the angel and moves aside. Balaam becomes angry with the donkey because it did not obey him. The Angel of the Lord credited the donkey's quick thinking for Balamm's deliverance. He declared, "the donkey saw me and turned aside from me 3 times. If she had not done so, I surely would have killed you. (v 33). The donkey recognized danger and made a decision.

Betty:

Animals enjoy life. Job 39:13, ostrich flapping its wings "joyously", and beasts of the field "playing" in their suroundings. (Job 40:20) Animals can teach us about justice. Animals lack the capacity for moral reflection. Scripture supports this. It was humans how ate from the forbidden tree, not the animals. (Gen 3:1-7) Animals are innocent and because of this innocence, this is one reason why most of us become so offended when we hear stories of cruelty and abuse. We are reacting to an innate sense within us that is repulsed by wanton violations for their innocence and vulnerabilty. ( much the same way we become enraged when hearing of child abuse or elder abuse.).

Victor:

Betty J. we agree with all that. Are you not beating a straw man here? Nobody, not God, not we, are condemning animals.

Victor:

Are you and Dell vegetarians, Betty?

Betty:

No, we are not vegetarians. We eat all types of meat.

Betty:

Animals belong to God. Psalm 24:1 "The earth is the Lord's and ALL it contains. God did not give up ownership of the animals He created, he gave us 'stewardship' over them, dominion over them. We are to care for them and look after them. Animals are not only worthy of our respect, they deserve it. My Dad raised cattle that were sent to slaughter to feed many. He would never tolerate ANY shows of mistreatment to ANY animal. He told me that God had placed each animal upon the earth for a reason. In the case of cattle, because they are giving their life to feed us, we need to treat them with respect. Horses were often beasts of burden, so were donkeys, oxen,...again, they are devoting their lives to whatever was asked of them. They deserve our respect.

Victor:

Betty, are you reading what I'm writing?

Betty:

Hang on, I will not done MY rant.

Victor:

Why the rant, Betty? If you don't hear me, what are you fighting? Do you know?

"If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him" (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).

Betty:

I have heard you Victor, I think it only respectful to listen to the other opinion.

Betty:

Pets are also used as therapuetic measures. Stroke patiens want to feel the soft warm fur of a cat or a dog and will reach out to touch a pet therapy animal, whereas they had been unresponsive. PTSD patients are able to feel calmer and safer with their pet around, instead of relying on drugs. Dogs can detect when a seizure is about to happen and will take the person to a safe place so they do not fall when the seizure takes hold. Animals lead the blind, dogs have been used in wars to prevent many of our soldiers from being killed. Again, do they deserve our respect? In my opinion, most certainly!


Victor:

All that we are fully aware of and do not disagree. Get hold of yourself!

Betty:

My parents were wonderful Christian people and told me about how God gave us stewardship over the animals and we will have to answer to God (one day as we all stand before Him), about how we have treated the animals. God wanted us to care for them. May parents also told me animals will be in heaven. If animals were not cherished by God, why would He give such a treasured place to creatures (some seem to believe) to be so low?

Betty:

In closing, Isaiah's description of heaven is the one I think my Dad was referring to. "the wolf and the lamb will feed together and the lion will eat straw like the ox" Isaiah 65:25 Heaven will lack NO thing that is good and that will bring glory to God. Animals, (in my life) do not take the place of God,...let's be very clear about that. I believe my God knew that life was going to be hard and He wanted his children to have certain things they could enjoy and love. That is how I view my pets. They are members of my family and are cherished. they can make hard days seem less stressful, just like the stoke victim, I as well feel calmer when I can reach down and run my hands throught the fur of my 4 legged friends. I do not fear standing before my Lord upon judgement day and having Him know this. I feel we have much, much bigger concerns facing Christians today than how we view animals. I want to glorify God each and every day, that is my concern. I ask for His help and guidance every day.

Victor:

If you do value my "opinion," then consider these things: One, you say you "ask for His help and guidance every day." Which leads me to believe you've considered that you need them.

Does He answer? Yes, He does. Do we recognize His answers or do we continue to believe we know better than the answers He gives and those He sends to give them, no matter how bizarre they may appear to be at "first reading"?

Victor:

Now read what I've written, Betty.

Betty:

I just finished reading all that you have written, Victor. You seem in agreeance to what I have said. Why then, the very blunt, accusatory, abrasive blog on your website? That has a very different 'tone' than what you have written here.

Victor One, as you know it isn't always easy to determine the intent and attitude on paper. Two, I think we need to look at the facts and the truth of a matter, with substantiation, as objectively as possible before drawing conclusions. Three, it's very clear, and I have your admission, that you quite misinterpreted what was spoken. Four, there can be fault with the receiver as well as, or instead of, the transmitter.

Experience teaches us these things in all of life. Didn't men accuse Jesus Christ and His disciples of all sorts of things because they misunderstood them, though they were right? They even killed them for their Words. Haven't we all been guilty of that?

My recommendation is to read again and soberly consider the paper and our conversation here and see if you might not come up with a different perspective. Is that a reasonable request or suggestion?

Betty:

Victor, I will re-read it and perhaps comment later.

Betty:

OK, totally re-read the blog and still have some issues. Pet ownership an "ungodly heathen practice"? Come on,...seriously? And to compare physical uncleanness to spiritual uncleanness is not the same thing. I do agree that some people are not diligent in the keeping of a pet and that is not good, but for most people that own pets, the owners try to be respectful not only of their own homes, but their neighboring properties as well. I am NOT referring here to the crazy cat person, because we wll know the conditions in that home will be less than desirable. Victor, both Dell and I value your friendship, being a good neighbor. I respect your opinions and I trust you will do the same for us. We love our pets, they are in our home and they will remain in the home. In no way does the pet replace the love that we have for our Father in any way. See, this is why I try very hard to stay away from these discussions, usually results in hurt feelings, possible resentment and I do not want that to happen. I am now going to bow out of any more discussion on this topic. I have stated my case as you have yours. As I mentioned, I respect your opinion, Victor, respect it, but may not necessarily agree.

Victor:

Several things I can say for now. I'm not afraid to discuss any of this or other spiritual matters at any time. The Lord did encourage us to speak the Truth though it could cost us our lives, and it would.

You used Scripture and I don't argue with those Scriptures though I will point out that they weren't entirely relevant to what the message was.

Now, I too will pass on some Scriptures to you, from the Old Testament, as you did, and point out the fact that God designated clean and unclean animals.

This was not a spiritual difference but a physical one. When His people ate the unclean, they were in disobedience to His command to not eat the unclean. Which makes it a spiritual matter, doesn't it? When it comes down to it, all things are spiritual in the end. It was Spirit Who made all things, both physical and spiritual.

Just an aside about Balaam's donkey. The event of its speaking was supernatural, not normal. It was God Who did what was done and not the donkey. That is the only case in the Bible of a dumb beast speaking. Normally, animals do not have the attributes of those made in God's image. They can't worship, love, hate, pray, or reason of God's Law, etc. They have their place, yes, and God expects us to respect their place, as He sees fit and not as we deem wise in our own eyes.

Posted the following and sent this in an email to Betty:

Victor:

Betty, one more thing, confirming that you need to read much more carefully - the words chosen were not loose.

You say, "Pet ownership an 'ungodly heathen practice'? Come on,...seriously?"

We say no such thing, Betty.

Victor:

Qualifier: Technically, your reference is accurate wording, so our error in expression and I'm glad you point it out. We will try to adjust that wording to more clearly reflect where we're coming from. We mustn't appear to suggest a blanket law in that point; there must be clarity on the definition of pet ownership.

For instance, if I kept a mouser, I could call it a pet; if I kept a guard dog or a riding horse, I could call it a pet.


Victor:

Ok, Betty, and Dell, I understand you’ve withdrawn from this conversation thread. However, for the sake of all readers, I’d like to clarify the position of the article, House Pets, seeing as I may have muddied the waters at the end here with a confusing definition of “pet.”

The full statement in House Pets that you question is pretty much worded as you quote, and it is:

“I would confidently say that 99% of pet ownership is an ungodly heathen practice.”

There are two main points of the paper. ONE, we’re talking pets, as defined by the Word Web Dictionary:

“A domesticated animal kept for companionship or amusement.”

TWO, we’re talking house pets, that is, animals living in the home with people. We’re not discussing all domestic or wild animals, which, as you’ve pointed out, God has created for good, as He has all things.

We believe that people living with animals is essentially not a Biblical Jewish or Christian practice before God; it originates as a pagan custom. So yes, we are serious.

We’re addressing primarily two issues with house pets - idolatry and unsanitary environment with serious consequences thereof in both cases.

There’s a very small percentage of people who can benefit by animals of therapeutic value, like Seeing Eye or seizure response dogs, so it’s reasonable to be flexible and choose the lesser of two evils, but these are very few exceptions.

You said you still weren’t satisfied (in agreement) after reading what we’ve written. To you, our position is that of zealots or fanatics. I understand. I don’t write this to convince you; I’m only here to communicate the Truth for all concerned.

Victor:

Betty and Dell,

Seeing we discuss this matter of animals from a Biblical perspective and Christian doctrine and conduct, read another more comprehensive paper on what those who love God should and will be eating concerning animals and other foods:

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/.../chris ... al-diet....

We continue to be your friends,

Victor

Terri Cabreros
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Terri Cabreros »

There...I went and did it. I offended someone with this teaching.
Peter's nephew (his sister's son), Julian and Julian's wife, Cheyenne have been coming to our home for dinners occasionally. I had posted this teaching on my FB page November 26th. They were supposed to come to dinner last Saturday (12/3) so during the day I sent them a couple of messages to confirm. They never responded and I was concerned that something may have happened.

Then as I happened to be checking my FB page last night and scrolling to the bottom looking for an article that was posted that I wanted to review, I see pictures Julian's wife posted taken of Julian with their dogs in their home...several pictures. I noticed the date she posted them was Saturday evening at 6:26pm...the night that they were supposed to be here for dinner.

That's when I knew they had seen the post and it was as if they were taunting me with the pictures, expecting that I would have seen it that night.

I was so angry...not so much that I felt they were taunting me but that I had been concerned that something may have happened to them and that same night, they posted those pictures which spoke volumes, that I unfriended him. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, being angry at that time, but I did.

Some background on them:
They live in a small studio home that's a square with a living room, bathroom and a kitchen. On one side of the living room are three big cages for three of their full sized Pit Bulls and one full sized Pit Bull is allowed to roam freely (four dogs total). On the other side of their living room is their sleeping area.
Cheyenne is pregnant and expecting their first child at the end of January.

Also, a few years ago, Cheyenne was mauled by one of their adult Pit Bulls in which she suffered extensive injuries. She does not have full use of one arm and has scarring on her arm and neck area.
His mother told me that Julian "cried like a baby" when they had to put that dog down.

One thing about local people...most of the time if you say something or do something that offends them, they won't confront you directly. What they do instead is ignore you completely or just tolerate you, which sends a message and when asked if you said or did anything to offend them, they will either continue to ignore you or deny it..."no, nothing's wrong."

I don't condemn them, I do forgive them but it does bothers me somewhat that they would be so offended, yet, at the same time, I should have known they would be and I am very thankful for what is happening. Julian can be as stubborn and unforgiving as his mother.
Lord willing, I'll give it a little time and contact him later.

It still amazes me (although it shouldn't) that when you share something you know to be good and it is perceived as evil..."touch not my idol."

Praise and bless the Lord!

Beryl Knipe

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Beryl Knipe »

Hi Terri,

Thank you for sharing this. There are many "friends" who keep on and on posting dog and cat pictures and how they're "human" and " we're their parents" and "they live in our home" etc. When I posted the pet article to Facebook, they just keep on and on and on pushing their animals and their "love for their little darlings" over and over again. To be expected.

The same with all the pagan Christmas and holy(holiday) posts I put up about Easter and Halloween and... then, people keep on and on sending out their Christmas/Easter messages.

Funny thing is, I don't feel sad or bad about what they have to say, I actually feel pleased because not only have I learnt something of benefit, I've passed that on to others - it's up to them what they do with it. Praise God for His Wisdom. Amen!
Beryl.

Alan Agnew
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:54 am

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Alan Agnew »

I have a grandmother who is dying of cancer. I told her on Feb. 2, 2017 that she is sick because of a sin. It was like she had one of the plagues put on Egypt, after all. However, she said she had no idea what the sin is.

So she's nice, soft speaking, never did anything blatantly wrong. She even ran a daycare in the years before my birth and stood up to some abusive parents.

I recalled the House Pets teaching at the time and told her the pets were not healthy. She didn't pay much mind to that as the big source of the cancer and sin.

Today (Feb. 5), I gave her a print out of the teaching House Pets and said she is treating her pets as idols. Of course, she said the article was just Martin and Victor's "opinion," and I told her they had good, Biblical agruments from faith. I even said the writing came from a prophet, but she paid no heed and said she'll read it when she has time.

She has always had dogs or cats. She has two dogs right now, for example, and they are almost always indoors. There is black dog hair all over the carpet that my mother vacums up every week because it darkens the living room's floor. Oh, I don't see much hope for her in the near future, but holding pets as idols does have consequences. She doesn't even see it as sin. Strange.

Faye Corman

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Faye Corman »

Pets and pet products is a billion dollar yearly industry in America today. I suppose that's why Romans 1:22,23 said of us,

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed from glorying in God, to the glorification of corruptible man, and birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

Brandon LaBerteaux
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:35 pm
Location: Currently: Denver, CO

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Brandon LaBerteaux »

Here's a good reference article on Toxoplasma Gondii--the cat-caused parasite:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... zy/308873/

Loads of scientific facts and research describing all the myriad of ways this parasite affects people (although there are moments of cat-owning sympathy and sensationalism tucked in there).

Ronnie Tanner
Forum Admin
Posts: 1651
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
Location: Helena, Montana

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Ronnie Tanner »

Victor received an email on the House Pets paper. You can see the email and Victor's reply here:

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... .htm#Patsy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tony Tan
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Tony Tan »

I never really understood why people live with their pets especially in HK where space is very limited. I believe it's more about social status in HK. The more expensive and rarer the breed, the better. People like the attention they get from other people who appreciate their pets.
I am reminded of the following:

Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher,
“Vanity of vanities! All is vanity.”
(Ecclesiastes 1:2 NASB)

Tony

Tang Williams

Re: New Teaching - House Pets

Post by Tang Williams »

Tony Tan quoted, "People like the attention they get from other people who appreciate their pets."

Hi Tony,

You are correct that the attention for many is important to feel and to be seen as important.

Just recently, I happen to see an interview about single men buying pets (especially cute dogs) as a pre-requisite to [sexually] attracting [or tricking] women. By having and caring for a pet suggests that he will be a good father [breeder] and care for the children.

Again, it is vanity when we try to replace the Lord with the things of the world!

Post Reply

Return to “Mundane Matters of Importance”