The Path of Truth Forum

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Victor and Paul:

I have been enjoying your writings immensely and have likewise been on a parallel journey for true doctrine, after The Lord challenged me with "Why do you believe what you believe?" Over the past two decades, I've been astonished at what He has shown me!

Our common understanding is in alignment on every point, except two, and in the spirit of our shared passion for truth, I'd like to ask you a question as related.

The doctrinal discourse where you promulgate "all are saved", while well-researched and written, seems to present two pagan concepts of (i) unconditional immortality and (ii) purgatory by another name (lake of flames). Please permit me to expand, briefly.

We do agree together that the doctrine of eternal torment is false. But to conclude that the only other outcome is that "all are saved", after being purged through punishment in the lake of flames is equally false. Support of that view would require concurrence with the idea that we are born immortal, which we are not. Support of that view would equally require a belief in purgatory by another name, where people come out the other side, saved after being punished.

There is much scripture to the contrary. Isaiah 66:24 states "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

Malachi 4:3 states "And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of Hosts."

II Peter 2:12 states "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"

These verses are unambiguous. We will see the carcasses (Hebrew pegerim = dead bodies) of those that transgressed without repentance and they shall be ashes under our feet. None of us are immortal and those who resist Yahushua will perish in their own corruption.

We also agree that the Nachash (Satan) in Genesis, was an upright walking, intelligent being, able to cunningly communicate. Even if he was a man, as you present, he would be subject to II Peter 2:12 as well. If he was a fallen son of God, then he is immortal. Being thrown into the lake of flames, for an immortal being, would, in fact, be eternal torment.

In closing, the book of Revelation tells us that only they "which are written in the Lamb's book of life" will enter into the new Jerusalem. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." -Rev 21:27 (Those who weren't written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of flames. - Rev 20:15)

I would value your response.

Best regards,

Karen

Hi Karen,

Good to hear you're being ministered to by the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ, at our site. We believe what we believe because we believe Him!

You say we teach “all are saved,” but actually it is that “all will be saved.” There's quite a difference (see The Deadly Error of the Universalists). It does seem, however, that you understand we're saying all will be brought to repentance, as God declares is His will:

“The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9 MKJV).

You say there is much Scripture to the contrary, citing several verses:

“Isaiah 66:24 states: 'And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.'

“Malachi 4:3 states: 'And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of Hosts.'

“II Peter 2:12 states: 'But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;'

We see nothing in these Scriptures that confirms either annihilation or punishment that goes on time without end. Your conclusion of the former is simply unwarranted conjecture on your part, going contrary to the testimony of the Scriptures.

You presume, for example, that to be “destroyed” means “nothing left to salvage.” In one sense that's true, inasmuch as there is loss and devastation, but it's not true at all that this is the end. The Scriptures speak abundantly of a restoration that comes after destruction, the last Adam restituting what has been lost (destroyed) through the first Adam:

“For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:21-22 MKJV).

Just what do you think Resurrection is all about, if not the restoration of that which perished or was destroyed?

The Lord's people Israel serve as an example of His judgment and mercy:

“O Israel, you have destroyed yourself; but in Me is your help” (Hosea 13:9 MKJV).

“And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins'” (Romans 11:26-27 MKJV).

Jeremiah 31:15-17 ESV
(15) Thus says the LORD: “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more.”
(16) Thus says the LORD: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy [the last enemy being death].
(17) There is hope for your future, declares the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

How can you say that Israel, which destroyed itself, is annihilated, to be no more, when God says He is their help Who will turn ungodliness away from them? And don't we see the nation resurrected from the dead, symbolic of God's promise to restore them all, just as He said of Rachel's dead children?

Consider what the Lord said to His apostles:

“Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28 MKJV).

He didn't say… “you that you who have followed Me, in the annihilation, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28 MKJV).

Or….“you who have followed Me, in the eternal torment, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28 MKJV).

And how about when the whole world perished in the flood?

“Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished” (2 Peter 3:6 KJV).

Was that the end of those people, were their spirits annihilated in the next realm? No:

1 Peter 3:18-20 MKJV
(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
(19) in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(20) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);

How can you know the Lord after you're annihilated?

“Behold, therefore I will stretch out My hand on you, and will give you as a prize to the nations. And I will cut you off from the peoples, and I will cause you to perish out of the lands. I will destroy you, and you shall know that I am the LORD” (Ezekiel 25:7 MKJV).

Annihilation of something created, especially in God's own image, is clear loss, failure and defeat. God does not lose or fail. He's The Winner, not a loser by any means, certainly not the God and Savior Jesus Christ of the Scriptures, Whom we know.

You object:

“None of us are immortal and those who resist Yahushua will perish in their own corruption.”

We say, “amen” with brother Paul:

1 Timothy 6:13-16 EMTV
(13) I charge you before God Who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus Who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
(14) that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(15) which He will show in His Own time, He Who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
(16) Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, Whom no man has seen or is able to see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

You continue:

“We also agree that the Nachash (Satan) in Genesis, was an upright walking, intelligent being, able to cunningly communicate. Even if he was a man, as you present, he would be subject to II Peter 2:12 as well.”

II Peter 2:12 says: “But these, as unreasoning natural brute animals having been born for capture and corruption, speak evil of the things that they do not understand. And they will utterly perish in their own corruption.”

Satan was subject to this nature as a man, and is subject in his children, working through them by his spirit of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:1-3 MKJV
(1) And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,
(2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;
(3) among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

“In closing, the book of Revelation tells us that only they 'which are written in the Lamb's book of life' will enter into the new Jerusalem. 'And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.' -Rev 21:27 (Those who weren't written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of flames. - Rev 20:15)”

To which we heartily concur. Read The Great Promise of the Lake of Fire and the Second Death.

Paul and Victor
www.ThePathofTruth.com

Paul:

Thank you very much for your thoughtful, comprehensive reply! I see the context of your doctrinal premise and appreciate the direct Scripture references as related.

I have been continually amazed at the distortions of the Word of The Lord that are, in the mainstream, accepted as truth, and equally astonished at the process of having many deceptions revealed to me! I will prayerfully consider your provisions and I know that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth, to most fully know, serve and love our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and to sweep away perpetuated lies fed to the sheep.

I sincerely thank you for your careful handling of the Word, and your time in response to my request for clarification of those particular points of doctrine you laid out.

Lots to contemplate! I'll keep you posted

Thanks again, gentlemen!

Karen