The Path of Truth Forum

(This is an archived correspondence at The Path of Truth. We have sent notification to the correspondent.)

I've got a question. I'm scratching my head on this one. I've carefully read your assessment of Pastor Francis Chan, and although you end your treatment accusing him of being "weighed" but found "wanting", I'm wondering if your critique of him is that which is truly "wanting." Beyond being overly critical of Pastor Chan, what is your primary argument/criticism? I fail to see that you have raised much in the way of theological error. You accuse him of being a "carnal minister" of the "counterfeit church." Um, how did you arrive at this conclusion, unless you are the type of professing Christian that believes you are the only one attending a worthy church? Now don't misunderstand my words. I'm an advocate of the pure gospel, but I also realize that people aren't perfect, and that there is a brand of self-righteous Christianity out there that cannot see beyond the pimple on a person's nose, if you know what I mean. I hope you aren't of that spirit and mentality.

So, what exactly is wrong with Pastor Francis Chan? Theologically?

Pastor Pete

Pete, did you not see the part in our posting, Francis Chan Revisited, where we talk about his egregious depiction of God as an “eternal torturer”? Or do you have no problem with that because you're in agreement with this blasphemous characterization?

To those who believe and hear what the Lord is saying through us about Chan's stance and doctrine, the evidence is clear. Do read the postings over again, along with the proof material linked within.

Other writings that could help:

The True Marks of a Cult
Diabolical Doctrines

You may be a pastor approved of men, but you're not a pastor ordained by God.

Paul and Victor
www.ThePathofTruth.com

Yes, Paul, I did read your posting on this matter. My concern is that your assessment of others is frequently extreme and overly harsh. It's like me calling you a child of the devil because you embrace the unbiblical view of universalism, and even going so far to infer that Satan too will eventually be redeemed. In fact, it seems that such a position as this is more outlandish than anything I've heard come out of Chan's mouth. Anyways, it just seems as if you act like everybody else in the family of God is deficient and worthy of severe correction, with the exception of yourself. At least that's the message I'm getting from some of your commentary, and in various instances it seems like your making a mountain out of molehill.

I'm all for defending the faith, but not nitpicking.

Anyways, thanks for your response.

Pastor Pete

“Preacherdog,” the question is not what we're saying so much as how you understand what we're saying, to whom, and why.

You believe you're defending “the faith,” but what faith is that? Is it the one once delivered to the saints or is it another? Do you really know? How is it you can't hear what we're saying? And why aren't you honestly, attentively, prayerfully reading the links we've given you?

There is a false universalism that deceives many and there is the true Biblical doctrine of the Lord Jesus' shed blood at the cross being so efficacious that it cannot fail but to bring total reconciliation of all men and things to Himself. This we teach by the Scriptures, by revelation, and by Godly reason.

As to Satan, if he has no hope of reconciliation to God then what makes you think you ever did? If God's grace could work on you, why can't it be potent enough to work on rocks and devils, if the Lord chooses (and He does)? Is it because you think you were righteous enough to choose - something rocks and devils would never do? Think again.

If slaves to sin can and must be redeemed by a Higher Power, by an External Savior, even though they've been so wicked, how can you think Satan will never be purged and purified in the Lake of Fire that burns with “brimstone,” that is, sulfur, a purifying agent?

We have been “deficient and worthy of severe correction,” Pastor Pete, and He began His judgment with us decades ago and continued for decades before we were assigned to bring it to others. How about you? Where's your “severe correction,” the baptism of fire?

Let us ask you: Just who IS in the family of God, “Preacherdog”? To have a handle like that by whatever origin and for whatever purpose tells us you remain with those compassing Him about on the cross according to His Psalm. Aren't you being presumptuous to be questioning us?

No nitpicking here, but “who has despised the day of small things”?

Victor and Paul

“Preacherdog,” the question is not what we're saying so much as how you understand what we're saying, to whom, and why.

GOD IS THE ULTIMATE JUDGE ON ALL OF THESE MATTER. MY ORIGINAL PREMISE IS THAT YOUR CRITICISM IS OFTENTIMES UNWARRANTED. I'M ALL FOR DEFENDING THE FAITH, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T SLAM PEOPLE FOR MINUTE AND INSIGNIFICANT ERRORS. YOU COME ACROSS, JUST AS YOU HAVE IN YOUR RESPONSE TO ME, AS IF YOU ARE THE ONLY TRUE SPOKESMAN FOR GOD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD. SORRY, YOU ARE JUST ONE OF MANY OF GOD'S LOWLY SERVANTS.

You believe you're defending “the faith,” but what faith is that? Is it the one once delivered to the saints or is it another? Do you really know? How is it you can't hear what we're saying? And why aren't you honestly, attentively, prayerfully reading the links we've given you?

I AM WELL ACQUAINTED WITH "THE FAITH" OF THE PURE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, FROM THE INCARNATION, TO THE DOCTRINE OF PROPITIATION, TO THAT OF THE GLORIOUS COMING AND KINGDOM OF OUR BLESSED LORD. ONCE AGAIN, YOU ACT AS IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WITH YOUR ARMS AROUND SOUND DOCTRINE. AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOUR ONLINE POSTS ARE WITHOUT ISSUE? AND WHO SAID I DID NOT "HONESTLY" READ THE LINKS YOU HAD GIVEN? WHAT YOU ARE REALLY SAYING IS THAT IF HAVE ANY SORT OF ISSUE, OR CRITICISM, THEN I AM THE ONE WHO MUST BE AT FAULT, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE WRONG, NOT EVEN A LITTLE. BY THE WAY, ALL THE CULTS RESPOND TO CRITICISM IN THIS MANNER.

There is a false universalism that deceives many and there is the true Biblical doctrine of the Lord Jesus' shed blood at the cross being so efficacious that it cannot fail but to bring total reconciliation of all men and things to Himself. This we teach by the Scriptures, by revelation, and by Godly reason.

THERE IS NO VALID DOCTRINE OF UNIVERSALISM, REGARDLESS OF THE VERSION. AT THE END OF THE AGE THE TARES WILL BE SEPARATED FROM THE WHEAT AND CAST INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE. MANY UNBELIEVING SINNERS WILL SUFFER EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD BECAUSE THE RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. THE BIBLE IS QUITE CLEAR ON THIS MATTER.

As to Satan, if he has no hope of reconciliation to God then what makes you think you ever did? If God's grace could work on you, why can't it be potent enough to work on rocks and devils, if the Lord chooses (and He does)? Is it because you think you were righteous enough to choose - something rocks and devils would never do? Think again.

YOU ARE LEANING ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND FABRICATION WHEN IT COMES TO THIS MATTER. THERE IS VIRTUALLY NOT EVIDENCE PRESENTED IN THE BIBLE IN REGARDS TO THE ULTIMATE RESTORATION OF SATAN.

If slaves to sin can and must be redeemed by a Higher Power, by an External Savior, even though they've been so wicked, how can you think Satan will never be purged and purified in the Lake of Fire that burns with “brimstone,” that is, sulfur, a purifying agent?

ONCE AGAIN, APART FROM YOUR OWN HUMAN COMMENTARY (OR THE COMMENTARY YOU HAVE ADOPTED FROM SOMEONE ELSE), THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT SATAN WILL BE REDEEMED. THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS. IT DOESN'T EVEN HINT TO SUCH AN IDEA OR CONCEPT. AND THE LAKE OF FIRE IS CLEARLY DEPICTED IN THE BIBLE AS A PLACE OF PUNISHMENT, NOT SOME PURIFYING AGENT. THAT IS A MOST ABSURD PREMISE. WHEREVER THIS IDEA CAME FROM, IT DID NOT COME FROM THE SPIRIT OR WORD OF GOD.

We have been “deficient and worthy of severe correction,” Pastor Pete, and He began His judgment with us decades ago and continued for decades before we were assigned to bring it to others. How about you? Where's your “severe correction,” the baptism of fire?

NOT SURE WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY HERE. IT'S A LOT LIKE COMMENTARY YOU'VE DIRECTED AT OTHERS. IT DOESN'T FIT. THE DAY I BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST I ENTERED INTO THE NO-CONDEMNATION STATUS OF ROMANS 8:1. I BECAME A CHILD OF GOD VIA SPIRITUAL ADOPTION. SINCE THAT TIME WHATEVER "JUDGMENT" HAS BEEN DIRECTED TOWARD ME HAS BEEN IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD'S PATERNAL CARE OF MY LIFE, WITH THE INTENT OF ENLARGING MY CHARACTER AND DEEPENING MY SPIRITUALITY. HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN MY LIFE WILL FAITHFULLY CONTINUE THAT WORK BY HIS SPIRIT UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Let us ask you: Just who IS in the family of God, “Preacherdog”? To have a handle like that by whatever origin and for whatever purpose tells us you remain with those compassing Him about on the cross according to His Psalm. Aren't you being presumptuous to be questioning us?

JUST WHO IS IN THE FAMILY OF GOD? THERE YOU GO AGAIN WITH YET ANOTHER UNWARRANTED CHALLENGE. GOOD GRIEF, THE BIBLE IS QUITE CLEAR THAT (A) WE BECOME THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN JESUS, AND (B) ONLY GOD TRULY KNOWS THEM THAT ARE HIS. WE CAN BE FOOLED. WE CAN BE DUPED BY THOSE WHO MIMIC THE THE CHRISTIAN FAITH BUT DO NOT POSSESS THE SPIRIT OF GOD. MY ORIGINAL CRITICISM OF SOME OF YOUR COMMENTARY WAS THAT YOU SEEM TO THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON FAITHFULLY ARTICULATING THE TRUTH. BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU ARE NOT THE SOLE PERSON IN THIS WORLD WHO LOVES GOD, OR THAT UNDERSTANDS THE GOSPEL, OR WHO IS BEING USED OF GOD. BUT YOU SEEM TO ENJOY BEATING UP THE MEMBERS OF YOUR OWN FAMILY, THAT IS, THE FAMILY OF GOD.

AND YOU ARE GOING TO ALSO PICK ON MY HANDLE "PREACHERDOG"? THERE IS A HUMOROUS STORY BEHIND THIS TITLE, BUT I WILL SPARE YOU THE DETAILS. THE ONE THING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THAT YOU EXTREMELY ARROGANT, PROUD AND JUDGMENTAL TO SAY THAT IT SOMEHOW IMPLIES THAT I AM TO BE COUNTED AMONG THOSE WHO GATHERED AT THE CROSS OF JESUS AND RAILED AGAINST HIM, ACCORDING THE PROPHETIC PSALM.

AM I PRESUMPTUOUS TO BE QUESTIONING YOU? ONCE AGAIN, YOU SOUND LIKE A CULT. THEY ALL PUT FORTH THAT PREMISE. NO, I'M NOT BEING PRESUMPTUOUS, JUST HONEST. AND ALL I WAS SAYING FROM THE BEGINNING IS THAT YOU OFTENTIMES CRITICISM GOOD PEOPLE, AND FOR PETTY REASONS. AND THE IRONY IS THAT YOU ARE GUILTY OF TEACHING A FEW THINGS THAT ARE GROSSLY UNSCRIPTUREAL. YOU BASH FRANCIS CHAN FOR SOME COMMENT THAT HE MADE REGARDING GOD'S WILL FOR HIS PERSONAL, TREATING IT AS SOME HORRENDOUS DOCTRINAL ERROR, AND YET YOU HAVE NO PROBLEM TEACHING THAT SATAN WILL ONE DAY INHABIT ETERNAL GLORY AND JOIN THE SAINTS IN ARTICULATING THE PRAISES OF GOD.

No nitpicking here, but “who has despised the day of small things”?

YES, YOU ARE NITPICKING. PREACHERS AREN'T PERFECT PEOPLE, AND NEITHER ARE YOU. SOMETIMES THINGS AREN'T EXPRESSED EXACTLY AS THEY COULD BE. AND WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SERIOUS DOCTRINAL ERROR HERE. BUT YOU SEEM TO ENJOY PICKING PEOPLE APART, AND JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ENLARGING YOUR WEBSITE. BUT ARE YOU REALLY IN THE BUSINESS OF EDIFYING THE BODY OF CHRIST? BY ALL MEANS, BOLDLY CONFRONT APOSTATES, COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS AND FALSE TEACHERS, BUT STOP SLAPPING AROUND THE MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY. IT'S NOT RIGHT.

WELL, I'M OFF TO LISTEN TO A MESSAGE BY OUR DEAR BROTHER, JOHN MACARTHUR, JR. HE'S ONE OF THOSE CHILDREN OF GOD YOU ASKED ME TO IDENTIFY EARLIER.

SEE YOU IN HEAVEN, WHERE WE WILL BOTH CAST OUR CROWNS AT THE FEET OF JESUS. JOHN MACARTHUR TOO!

Pastor Pete

“BY ALL MEANS, BOLDLY CONFRONT APOSTATES, COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS AND FALSE TEACHERS….”

We have, Preacherdog Pete, and you're one of them.

“BUT YOU SHOULDN'T SLAM PEOPLE FOR MINUTE AND INSIGNIFICANT ERRORS.”

Just because you're blind to heresy, blasphemy, and Diabolical Doctrines doesn't mean these things don't exist.

We're doing as instructed by the Lord:

“He must hold firm to the trustworthy Word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers…”
(Titus 1:9-10 ESV).

“YOU COME ACROSS, JUST AS YOU HAVE IN YOUR RESPONSE TO ME, AS IF YOU ARE THE ONLY TRUE SPOKESMAN FOR GOD IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD.”

Rather than deal with the facts, you speak of impressions and use a fallacious argument to accuse us of glorifying ourselves. In doing so, you glorify yourself by despising the Truth.

“WHAT YOU ARE REALLY SAYING IS THAT IF HAVE ANY SORT OF ISSUE, OR CRITICISM, THEN I AM THE ONE WHO MUST BE AT FAULT, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY BE WRONG, NOT EVEN A LITTLE.”

Again, a false construct. You've skipped over the substance we've presented that proves you're at fault and then try to put the onus on us, as if we're being unreasonable while you're a blind and stubborn jackass.

“BY THE WAY, ALL THE CULTS RESPOND TO CRITICISM IN THIS MANNER.”

Another baseless straw man accusation.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT SATAN WILL BE REDEEMED. THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THIS. IT DOESN'T EVEN HINT TO SUCH AN IDEA OR CONCEPT. AND THE LAKE OF FIRE IS CLEARLY DEPICTED IN THE BIBLE AS A PLACE OF PUNISHMENT, NOT SOME PURIFYING AGENT. THAT IS A MOST ABSURD PREMISE. WHEREVER THIS IDEA CAME FROM, IT DID NOT COME FROM THE SPIRIT OR WORD OF GOD.

We have over twenty writings full of Scriptures (The Restitution of All Things) proving the ultimate victory of Christ in redeeming and reconciling all things to God, and you haven't a single Scripture in response, only your Opinion.

You don't know about or understand “severe correction” because you're a bastard and not a son of God. You've never been scourged or corrected.

Hebrews 12:5-8 MKJV
(5) And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;
(6) for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives.”
(7) If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
(8) But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.

John MacArthur is right up your alley: Presuming Carnal Knowledge Is Godly

Paul and Victor

Paul, how arrogant, pious and self-righteous you are to throw me in the camp of the apostates. I'm not bothered in the least bit by such a silly and unwarranted response as this, because I am fully confident in the efficacy of Christ's precious blood in bringing me full acceptance before Almighty God. Your response is so very typical of people who think they have a monopoly on the truth, who can't appreciate anyone in the family of God beyond their own little cult following they belong to. At least I'm not revamping the doctrine of eternal damnation and ultimately sending the devil himself to eternal glory.

You will be held accountable for you Pharisaical ways. See you and the devil in heaven, eventually, right?

Peter, we speak to you in the Name of Jesus Christ, Almighty God, the Risen-from-the-dead Lord and Savior of all men.

You are not a pastor of sheep but a dog kennel supervisor, if that. Those who hear your voice are not the Lord's sheep. You've been established in another gospel with another Jesus. So sure are you of your position that you will perish in it.

The Lord Jesus Christ, Almighty God, is done with your backtalk. He's done with your witchcraft in His Name. He's done with your willful ignorance and the very things you accuse us of that rule and bind you. Go your way, Satan's child, viper, scoffer of this last day; we have nothing to do with you, as you've chosen.

And you are the very kind of fruit Francis Chan produces; we “rest our case.”

\/

Wrong again. I'm a blood bought, justified, sanctified, adopted, sealed, spirit filled, glory bound child of God. But defending myself is not something I actually need to do, for God knows them that are his. My original criticism was that your critique of many of God's servants are often overly harsh and, in some cases, unnecessary. And your response is to call me an apostate and say I'm not a faithful overseer of God's flock. And the irony of all of this is that you yourself propagate what I consider to be a few unbiblical teachings, which, by the way, are actually more out of line than anything I've heard Francis Chan utter. Oh, but I forgot, you are right and the rest of the body of Christ is wrong. What a joke.

Kennel supervisor? I think not. Been faithfully ministering at two churches for the past 27 years, preaching the pure gospel of Christ and serving the community in which I live. I'm certainly not spending my every waking hour criticizing my brethren for the theological line I see on their shoulders.

God will judge you for your errors.