Tim, as you have suggested talking about judgment, let us take a look at what we already have before us with regards to some of the things we have said to you, and how you have responded. Let us compare our judgment to yours.
This discussion took place after you received and responded to The Deadly Error of the Universalists.
Here is your initial criticism of this paper:
I would offer the suggestion that some of your words directed towards Gary could be avoided as it comes across as a personal attack and detracts from your main point.
Regarding which you allow could be in error, as you go on to admit:
…my comments on personal statement (which may be my error and perception)….
After I gave proof that I was not giving an opinion, you stepped further away from your initial criticism, making it sound like a negligible matter:
Appreciated your response and just for the record, I never suggested it was an opinion on your part. In fact, I thought you did a very good job in laying out the details and found your last e-mail to be quite gracious. My only initial comment was in regards to some of the statements towards Gary, that in my estimation could have been seasoned with a little more grace. Either way, you certainly did hit the target regarding the teaching.
And again admit to not knowing the truth of the matter yourself:
I can not say as to Gary being hypocritical and such. I do not know him at all and only have had correspondence with him thru a few of his writings and a dialogue on his discussion board where he and I were in disagreement (he was way off …that God never sent the flood, God would never kill, etc.).
To which I replied:
Since you now say that you really do not know what he is, or if he is hypocritical, I can understand how you are not able to receive my words to him. However, to give me counsel without knowing for sure what he is, and what God would therefore have to say regarding him, is not right either. You have no business giving spiritual counsel where you do not know what you are talking about. As you have said more than once now, you need to know something from God (“nor are we to judge until the Lord comes to us in a matter”).
You went on to further define where you lacked knowledge:
I may be wrong on the definition, but my understanding of a hypocrite is one that says one thing and yet lives another. So, if that is the case, I am accurate to say that I do not know personally if Gary is such for I know nothing of his lifestyle and if he lives differently than how he preaches.
I replied by linking the evidence (which you agreed is valid) to your understanding of the term “hypocrite”:
Gary fits the definition you give here, Tim. Consider: Can a man tell you he is preaching the way of Christ and salvation, deny the Way, which is Christ, and not be living a lie? Gary tells everyone there is nothing to do, and that they must not feel that there is. Those who make people feel they are required to obey are wrong, and he condemns it (and them, by implication). On the other hand, he is ever telling you things you must do to “realize” Christ within you. Is he not a hypocrite to condemn the Law, and those who use it lawfully, yet preach his own form of law (which is bondage) to enter spiritual life?
You ignore this with invalid reasoning, saying:
Putting that aside, my judgment is not towards his personal life (per say) but but rather his teachings for that is all that I know of him.
I go on to answer:
Ultimately the teachings and the personal life are one. Some people say, “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” The problem is, the sin and sinner are one, and the hate of sin will be perceived by the unrepentant sinner to be hatred of the sinner. It will be taken personally, in a negative manner, until there is repentance. Then it will be personal, but positive.
“For we are to God a sweet savor of Christ, in those being saved, and in those being lost; to the one we are the savor of death to death, and to the other we are the savor of life to life. And who is sufficient for these things?” (2 Corinthians 2:15-16)
You replied, again giving no evidence of anything wrong or improper in what I have said or done, other than saying you “felt” I could have been “less critical”:
Your argument was well detailed from a doctrinal standpoint, however I was not the only one who felt it could of been less critical regarding his person. You may disagree and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I hold to the idea that “ye that are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness”.
To that, I wrote:
As true servants of the Lord, we do not speak in hatred of the sinner; we speak to redeem. Even when Jesus spoke harshly to hypocrites, calling them a brood of vipers, do you think He was hating or condemning? He was not hating, but He was condemning them as they were, so that they would be what God willed. That is righteous judgment. Tim, it is not a matter of the act but of the motive. Men judge one another by appearance all the time.
I had already shown in other letters how Gary is not a brother (as you called him in another place), which we could see by his actions (personal life), and how he is not overtaken in a fault (as you phrased his problem), but rather boasts of a false gift and relationship with God. I also gave you several writings that speak of the discernment and judgment given by God to members of His body, with plenty of examples, showing that what we do is not exceptional, but is according to His ways. We do not know if you red the writings. None of these things have you disputed or proven to be otherwise. Therefore Tim, it is you, and not we, that judges without knowledge and unrighteously.
Furthermore, here is what you said in another note you sent, expressing even further doubts about your position:
I stand corrected in that I have no idea if Gary are some of things you had suggested and therefore if you have further knowledge to say certain things to him, who am I to say whether it was correct or incorrect. My only thought is that some things can be said one-on-one and not openly shared.
I had already, as mentioned, dealt amply with the matter of speaking openly in judgment of false brethren, and we can bring those Scriptures back to the table if necessary. Tim, it is evident that you really do not know for certain what to make of Gary. Why can’t you admit it? The reason is that you are proud, thinking yourself to be a discerning man of God, when in fact you do not have anything. Unless you judge someone by doctrine, you are stuck, because you cannot see. In one breath you profess you cannot see the hidden things to discern Gary, and in the next you go on to claim that you can see us and our motives (as we will see). Your judgment comes via personal and corrupt motivation, and is therefore unholy. It is what the Lord termed “unrighteous judgment.” You are also a hypocrite, because you complain against our righteous judgment, which He commends.
The reason you cannot discern Gary, and will not take a public stand against his obstinate heresy, is because you are cut from the same cloth as he is. You are a phony, a worshiper of Ashtoreth, the false goddess of love. You call your non-judgment of the flesh “love,” and your condemnation of the works of the Spirit, “spiritual discernment.” You side with the flesh to save your own neck, clinging to your miserable “ministry,” a work of the flesh, which has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It is vacant knowledge.
I now move on to another topic, where I specifically told you of a shortcoming I saw in you while reading your web site. You said:
I would gladly listen to what you think is wrong on my site as I strive to present the gospel with accuracy and the Spirit of Truth.
I replied: I do see something fundamental, and it is not a matter of doctrine as much as it is something you need to enter into and experience…you have yet to receive the Spirit of Christ….
How can I tell that you do not have the Spirit?
Here is a statement you make in your paper about this subject, in which I can point out the difference between repentance and being born again, which you have considered to be the same thing:
“It is worth mentoring at this point that the beginning of the born again experience does not immediately erase everything, it is just that – the beginning. The capacity for doing wrong is just as much in the regenerate person as the unregenerate (e.g., Peter cursed like a sailor and openly denied Christ after having walked with him for so many years).“
Peter was not yet born again and was still unregenerate when he denied Christ. Jesus said to him right before that event:
“But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not. And when you are converted, strengthen your brothers” (Luke 22:32).
Jesus was talking about a change of nature, and not simply repentance. Peter did not want to deny the Lord, but he did not have what it took to identify with Him. No man has what it takes. That can never change, without a new birth. Before the new birth the disciples and apostles all forsook Him. But a change occurred at Pentecost. After Pentecost the process of regeneration by the new birth began. The Spirit of God had been with Peter previously, but after Pentecost was in him. Now he stood up boldly. Now he denied the unrighteous requirements of the authorities, willing to die. He was a changed man. The capacity was no longer as it was before he was baptized (immersed) in the Spirit. He was born again. He now had God’s spiritual power to overcome.
“…the Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you” (John 14:17).
We each have to come to the same place Peter did, where we recognize our infirmity, our inability, and have no hope except the Lord does something for us. Better to say, “I go a-fishing” as a repentant not having the Spirit, than to say, “I will do the Lord’s work,” and not receive. We seek His salvation and anointing, but the timing is the Lord’s.
You are incorrect on your assumption of the baptism in my life for I received it approximately one year after that I believed with several supernatural happening at that time.
This is not proof of anything, Tim. It is simply your word that something happened to you. The Scriptures say, “Let God be true and every man a liar.” So what that you had an experience? You say something supernatural happened. Many have experiences of spirits and religious conversions that have nothing to do with the Spirit of God. The world is full of such stories. Your fruits tell us otherwise, Tim, which are what count, and are what we have been addressing.
You asked me to confirm the quote from your site, as you did not remember it, and after I did this in another letter, you wrote back the following:
Thanks for pointing that out that I made that statement and I will give more consideration to your comment about Peter. My comment was that Peter had done wrong even after walking with the Lord and therefore implying he was regenerated. In a nutshell, you are saying that you believe Peter was not born again and was still unregenerate while he walked with the Lord during Jesus’ earthly ministry, received revelation from the Father and did whatever he did in terms of ministry during that time. Correct? I find this very interesting and will give it ample consideration and seek the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth.
And I confirmed: Yes, you are correct in what I am saying.
Later on you make the following comments about what I had told you, without ever having dealt with the evidence and explanation that I had given you. You ignore all of that, and go on to accuse me of being wrong, even going as far to say that I should have known I was wrong, and willfully do not acknowledge what is patently untrue and unproven. You wrote:
Paul……once before you made the mistake of going into great detail that I lacked the baptism of the Spirit and you were completely wrong and lacked discernment, not to mention bearing false witness of a brother.
And (writing to Victor):
In our exchange, Paul also made some incorrect assumptions on his part about my baptism in the Spirit when writing to me (which he never admitted his gross error). This quickly showed me some things about your ministry as “blanket statements” are made without having any guidance by the Spirit (as He guides us into all truth).
Interesting, Paul writes to me about my baptism in his first e-mail, which was complete error or “LIE” and you say I speak lies? Victor, it is clear to me that you are a person lost in your religious mind and can not see the light.
Tim, you are confused, lashing out from a wounded pride with words of condemnation towards us, the messengers of the Truth you hate to hear. I was not attacking you or bearing false witness of you when I told you that you do not have the Spirit. I was telling you the truth for your benefit, that you might, if possible, be able to go on for more. I was even giving you the benefit of a doubt that you had experienced repentance, something for which we do not see evidence now. I have given you substance to back up what I say. You have never given anything to prove or show otherwise, so how am I to admit “gross error”? There is no error to admit.
Victor had written the following of you, which letter I sent you:
My contention with him [Tim] is that he is not a minister of God, as you said. Secondly, he presumes to be one. Thirdly, how should he know what is of the Spirit of God and what is not when he is seduced by a spirit from darkness, playing itself as light? He can only call good evil and evil good. In darkness, he has no choice. How else can he yoke himself with false ones, justifying himself, or speak as he does?
You replied, again proving our very words by your reaction, having no substantive answer for that which we have told you, instead responding with irresponsible and unfounded statements (unrighteous judgment):
The Lord showed me something last night about the both of you as I was seeking some understanding. He showed me that when a person may show some flesh (e.g., others have when they correspond with you), rather than being ministers of grace, the Lord showed me that vultures go after the flesh. Take that as the Word of the Lord towards you. You, my friends have seriously missed the mark and think yourselves to be beyond correction.
Sadly to say, you both spew out things out of your own carnal mind, thinking it is the Lord. You both use the scriptures as a SWORD in all cases and are not ministers of the new covenant, but rather the old. It reminds me as when Satan said IT IS WRITTEN to the Son of God.
I have many wonderful ministers in the kingdom that provide a good report of me and I labor to teach the scriptures accurately as I can. You many both do well to examine your own hearts and motives for it does not resemble the Spirit of the Lord.
You call us vultures, telling us that this is the Word of the Lord you speak to us. You ascribe evil motives to us, implying that we speak as Satan did to Christ. You denounce our ministry in the Lord, and us. Why? Because we have shone the light on you, and now being exposed you cannot hide. We prefer that you would repent, but you harden yourself in your sin. The only option you see is to strike at us as the snake that you are. You are what you are, God has ordained it, and it cannot be hidden as the Day has declared it.
In a second letter to you, Victor wrote:
That you cannot understand how we can know you by your words and site (fruits), without knowing you in the flesh, tells that you do not have the Spirit of God. As it is written:
“But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:15-16).
By the grace and power of God, we know more about you than you realize. You see, then, Tim, not knowing the ways of God, and the powers of those in Him, that you are a false teacher, you and all those friends who consider you a minister of God. Do we speak to condemn? Yes, we speak to condemn your works and lies you call truth, but if you were to repent instead of self-righteously sticking to your agenda and preserving yourself, you could enter into life. Instead, you are dead and remain so, resisting the very One you profess and presume to serve. Your ways are contemptible to God.
…As to what resembles the Spirit of the Lord, you are referring to the gods of old, Baal and Ashtoreth. Those are the ones you serve in Jesus’ Name. We declare to you, confidently, surely, unabashedly that we serve THE Lord Jesus Christ, and you serve another, preaching another gospel. Again, not having the Spirit of Christ, how can you possibly know the things of God?
…I now go on record, and you may post it all, that those “many wonderful ministers who provide a good report” of you are as phony as you are. Are we seeing flesh and devouring it? Indeed we are, not by beak, as Satan would blasphemously lead you to believe, but by sword, the Word of the Lord. And do not think that you, and those we address (which you have witnessed, and to whom you refer), show only “some flesh.” We are telling you and so many pretenders that what you are, say, think and do is all flesh, of the man of sin, with nothing to show of the Spirit of God. How else could you possibly compare the temptations of Satan to rebukes of the Lord? You are a phony altogether. We say so because it needs to be said.
You responded by saying:
Victor, your words to others and now me is an outright shame to the Lord and you ought to repent of your shallow and religious spirit.
You think you do the Lord a service when the fact is you do him a disservice. You think you are ministers of the kingdom when in fact you are a carnal man using the letter as a ministry of DEATH.
Please do not correspond with me again until you are broken of your religious ways and find the true path of life.
Followed by a second note (to Victor):
You start out by writing “Tim, I do not expect to post this correspondence with you.”
You then end by writing “We may well post this as an Issue of Life, and on our site.”
…………………………A double minded man is unstable in all is ways. I have clearly not granted you permission.
However if you care to enter into a dialogue on a specific doctrine, I would be happy to do so. However, you must refrain from your verbal assaults and unnecessary strife, as seems to be your pattern. If you and Paul would like to discuss a few issues, I will invite another (whom you have already said “those “many wonderful ministers who provide a good report” of you are as phony as you are.” end quote.
The topic you choose can be posted on your site. You may start the thread with a topic and an e-mail to me. I will ask a friend to join me as he and I will defend the faith and also be found in the Spirit of the Lord. Let me suggest the topic as “Your ministry and judging other brethren in the manner which you seem to do”.
Victor changed his mind during writing you his reply, as we had no thoughts of publishing your letter until you said you did not want it published. Then we thought, “Why not? These things need to be aired out in public, as the Lord would have it.” You condemn a man for changing his mind, and then you go on to do that very same thing. You said that you would not carry on this conversation with us, and then invite us to continue it. You tell us to refrain from “verbal assaults and unnecessary strife,” while you partake of both, and we do neither, at least not as you accuse us of doing.
I have pointed out how our words to you were founded on truth and honest inquiry, in service to God and what is in your best interest. You have lashed out in reply, striving against the truth and assaulting us as messengers of the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom we represent and you hate. You hypocrite! You are nothing but an empty and shallow man, Tim, pretending to be a minister of God, whose love and faith have been exposed as fraudulent. You try in vain to prove otherwise. You are only to be further exposed. Go on; try to hide behind your paper-thin facade of doctrine. You think the Lord does not see you, and cannot reach you? Wrong on both counts. You have heard the truth now, and cannot go on the same.
Here is the conclusion of the matter of judgment. Your judgments are made after the flesh, and are carnal, corrupt, self-serving. Our judgments are made after the Spirit, in mercy and truth, with hope of better things from God.
Tim, Victor here.
Is there not a difference between “not expecting to do something” and promising not to do something? In the very next sentence, I also said, “However, we will do so if God wills.” Totally up front. You are a faultfinder, a self-seeking liar, Tim, to accuse me of double mindedness and of using the Lord as an excuse; you are guilty of the very things you accuse me. Reserving judgment in a decision until further developments has nothing to do with being double minded. Yet even God changed His mind (repented, as the KJV puts it). So of what do you accuse me without accusing Him? Furthermore, any just and rational peruser of your letters would easily discover you to be speaking with much waffling. Hypocrite and false accuser!
Part of your problem is you think that a show of humility with insincere statements like “I could be wrong,” demonstrates meekness, humility, love, and the Spirit of Christ. There is nothing further from truth. The humility is false and you are thus found to be counterfeit. Is that not plain to those with understanding? Can you fool God? While you condemn our being frank with you, as Jesus was with your kind, you play religious, hypocritical games with us, justifying yourself, thinking to be in the Spirit. You, the liar, call us liars, but we have the substance to counter your lack of it. Your friend too, if unable to see past your phoniness, is as phony as you. We will deal with you and all those like you, without any problem. Today is your day of reckoning, I assure you. You are not dealing with phonies like yourself and so many others.
Is our ministry a ministry of death, as you charge? You are right! It is one of death to the flesh, to lies, to hypocrisy, to counterfeitcy, to that antiChrist spirit that pervades the whole world, and which is most glorified by those who blasphemously name His Wonderful Name, faking His love! You bet we are a ministry of death, and thankfully so! Death has a purpose, and that is to take away all things that offend. The lake of fire is the second death, is it not? What is its purpose but to destroy all evil? Yes, we are indeed a savor of death unto death. In that, you have truly spoken.
…you will clearly be ones looking from the outside in when God has his mature ones delivering creation from their bondage.
You think yourself and your companions to be manifest sons of God or close to it? Think again! We are them, here and now, in all reality! [Wipe the smirk from your heart.] Even now we judge you (yes, JUDGE; something you would like to sweep aside with Romans 2:1 and Matthew 7:1) but we have had the beams removed from our eyes and now judge, not after the appearance, but righteous judgment, as commanded, sitting on the throne of judgment, ordained of God, identified with Him in this wicked world of liars and self-aggrandizers, usurpers like you. Those who are for the joy of the Father are for the joy of the Father, and those, like you and your brood, who are for the fire, are for the fire. You need cleansing and purging, Tim, and that is what you are going to get, by the Word of Truth about yourself and your ungodly and contrary ways. You and yours are devils to be cast into the lake of fire, and even now do we do so with you by the speech of Truth.
You sure you are not the one enticed by your own evil imagination in 1984? A ministry of the Sword without the grace and compassion that Jesus taught is a ministry of the old covenant. You would do yourself a service to study a little better and learn the scriptures and moreso be broken before the Lord to have his Spirit. Have you ever done that? Have you really? Really? BY your e-mails, it is hard to see that you have!!!
Absolutely sure. You find it hard to believe for three reasons: One, you are not born again as you claim; two, you have never heard the Voice of God and obeyed, and three, your false doctrine has deceived you (which are all one). The rest of your words in that paragraph smack of self-righteousness, demonstrating you are void of the real Lord Jesus Christ altogether. Satan, we know with whom we are dealing, and you are he. You cannot stand up to the truth we speak. Get out of here. Tim, you write:
So, what gospel do you accuse me of preaching? Based on what? Specifics? Where is your evidence? You have made personal attacks and we have not discussed in great detail doctrine up to this point. Again, you spew things that you know nothing of. Your ministry is not really a ministry at all. It is not the one our precious Lord brought us.
All your fruits tell…your words, your lies, your accusations and your common, prevalent nature of “love.” Though externally encased with some doctrinal truths, it is the love of this world, of the carnal man, the man of sin, of Satan, who comes as an angel of light. You do not have the Spirit of God. The love you have gains the praise of men, but the disdain of God.
The disciples were commanded to tarry in Jerusalem until receiving the Spirit before they could be witnesses unto the Lord Jesus. You do not have the Spirit, so how can there be any truth or good thing come from you? While you have “truths,” you do not have the Truth, Who is Jesus Christ. I am speaking to one worshipping “another Jesus,” and “another gospel,” counterfeit, looking the same, but very different; opposite, in fact. You are the enemy, my friend; you are the enemy. We know it, and tell you so, not out of enmity, as you speak to us, in bitterness, self-preservation and defence, but we speak out of joy and gladness, thankful to be able to see and to speak, silencing ungodly speeches in His Name, spoken by ungodly, self-serving hypocrites, even as Enoch and Jude described.
Hypocrites, yes, and how great a hypocrite you are! I read your words; you accuse us of verbal assault while indulging in it yourself! Do you know the difference here, Tim? No, so I will tell you. Yes, we are in verbal assault with you, and you with us. The difference is that we do it in righteousness and objectivity, for Truth’s sake, while you do it for yourself, being an ungodly man.
Being an ungodly man is not the problem. God does not condemn the ungodly man. He has laid down His life for him. Your sin is that you presume to be otherwise. Because you say you see, your blindness remains. Because you “say you have no sin” (if not literally, in spirit and indirect words at least), therefore your sin remains. A false gospel? Yes, you are guilty of it altogether, “nice guy,” “whited sepulchre.”
Will you indeed be defending the faith, found in the Spirit toward us, Tim? How? In your syrupy “niceness” that quickly spoils and becomes putrid, exposed for what it is? The faith you have is the counterfeit one, the copy, the black faith. Tim, you are not fooling the One Who made all. The Truth knows a liar. Even the deceiver and the deceived are His. However, you do not deceive Him or those in Him, as are we.
Do you read anything we recommend to you? The writings we send are not in vain. They are part of our conversation, very relevant to the subject matter at hand. Read:
Will you now cower from our words of truth and power? Where is your power? Will you now make excuse after our strong and deserving words to you, and “turn tail?” Come, Tim, you and your friend or friends, as many as you can muster and are as foolish as you, and let us cross swords, and see whose heads roll. We are ready and eager for you, with desire to make it very public. It is time someone stood up and unabashedly, unapologetically, thankfully and gloriously identified with the REAL Lord Jesus Christ in this wicked world of “wannabe’s” who have fashioned their own gods in His Name. Let’s get it on, Satan. You are finished.
If not for the Lord being with us, we could not say or do anything regarding spiritual matters. On the other hand, in Him, we can and do judge everything (1 Corinthians 2:15), not after the appearance, but according to the Spirit, which is righteous judgment.
We received the following response to The True Marks of a Cult, “Mark Nineteen - Healing Services and Crusades”
There is a common falsehood (among so many others) propagated in nominal Christendom. It goes like this: “We mustn’t ever judge anyone. God alone knows the heart and mind.”