To skip the correspondence and read the summary, click here.
We were contacted in November 2010 by David Thompson, who wrote:
So far all I have read on your web site confirms what God has been revealing to me over the past five years about the truth of Jesus and his universal kingdom message. God downloaded much of this truth into a book he had me write and publish entitled, “The Fellowship of the Mystery of God”. The book’s web site is: Thefellowshipofthemysteryofgod.com.
i agree with what you write about Stephen E. Jones, L. Ray Smith, Ray Prinzing and J. Preston Eby and others.
Yours in Christ,
West Palm Beach
David followed up with another letter the next day:
Twice in the same passage it is written, God created man in his own image (Genesis 1:27) Colossians 1:15 says Christ is that image of God. But few Christians understand that Ephesians 2:10 ties in with these verses, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works….” Christians think that since St. Paul was writing to Ephesian believers, it applies only to believers but the truth is St. Paul was talking about all men universally. This is another of the many verses that teach universal salvation. Please call me ….
Already, we could begin to see that David was presenting a variation of the deadly error, wrongly assuming the apostle Paul was talking about all men being formed in God’s image at present. The apostle was plainly talking about only those who exercised godly faith in Christ. David appeared to be saying all men are in the process of entering the strait and narrow gate, whereas the Lord warned that most are on the broad path to destruction. We investigated this matter in the call David requested of us.
After the call, Victor wrote:
It was good talking to you this afternoon. A couple of observations:
One, both Paul and I noticed that you were asking some questions and willing to consider changes to your doctrinal position on spiritual/Biblical matters. Quite often when people call us, their primary goal is to convince us of what they believe, being intent on indoctrinating us. It seems almost as though their life depends upon it. While you were most certainly interested in sharing what you have learned, which is perfectly normal and fine, you were also willing to hear us out, somewhat at least.
Two, though we aren’t sure, I think you may have misunderstood our stance on some issues, but that’s not a problem or an issue for us. If you care to continue reading at our site, be our welcome guest. May the Lord give you revelation and understanding.
However, we do expect that you will find enough on our site to eventually choose to part ways with us (as has been the case with you in relation to others), though we always hope otherwise. That is the frequent result when people spend enough time reading our teachings. And that’s okay, too, though not preferable. We understand that we didn’t agree with some of these doctrines and revelations when they were first presented to us. Things take time to develop and come to fruition.
But I also want you to know that we aren’t about doctrine, and we’re not here to convince people of our doctrines. Our main thrust is life today, in all earthly and heavenly matters, walking by faith in obedience to, and fellowship with, the Lord. That’s what it’s all about, and not about “correct” doctrinal issues.
We know that as we walk with God, we will automatically understand true doctrine, His doctrine, having His mind because we walk in the light as He is in the light, His blood cleansing us of the viruses you mentioned, clearing the way for vibrant spiritual health. Our life is in the Present Lord of Life, here, now….
Don’t be afraid to approach us on anything you don’t understand or with which you may disagree. We won’t bite you, but by God’s grace, we will be straightforward with you, as we hope you will be with us, to the end that we come to an understanding of Him and His ways. Isn’t that what the Lord desires and expects of us?
And Paul wrote:
I hope you find the followup helpful. The main thing we are here for is to walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, loving Him by keeping His commandments and thereby having fellowship with one another. There is no other way.
Here are links to some writings that came up yesterday during our talk, or ones that we were reminded of as possibly being useful for you:
Paul and Victor,
Thank for the time you have taken to talk to me on the phone and to email me.
I believe you guys are heaven sent to encourage me in the revelations God has downloaded into my mind over these past ten years. The Bible says something about two or three witnesses to confirm God’s word of truth….
So far in my readings of your website the only disagreement I have encountered is your misspelling of the past tense of read as “red”….
We would always like to see those with whom we speak turn to God and love Him in a present walk of faith and obedience. After this letter, David contacted us on The Path of Truth chat. We told him point blank during a lengthy conversation that his doctrine was in error because he lacked the essential relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
David then wrote to Mark and Mariko Benson:
I very much enjoyed reading Mariko’s testimony [removed now] and found it to be very genuine and exceptionally well written. Her testimony was correct and proper telling what God has done in her life, not what she has done and believed so God would save her. I have much identification with Mariko’s Japanese background having lived in Japan from 1966-69 when I was a naval officer stationed in Naval Air Station Atsugi. During my stay in Japan I enjoyed a very unique relationship with a Japanese lady who came from a wealthy family. I thought I wanted to marry her but she talked me out it saying she did not know how to be a wife. She only knew how to seduce and charm men. So I forgot about her and returned to the states after my tour of duty in Japan ended. Two years later, when I was assigned to the Bureau of Naval Personnel in Washington DC, she called me from Atlanta letting me know she had married another officer friend of mine from my squadron. (I had introduced him to her.) She told me she was six months pregnant and she needed to see me. I did go to see her and my friend in Atlanta during Christmas of 1971. Shortly thereafter her husband (my friend) left her and I don’t think he has ever seen their lovely daughter that was born after he left. Over the years I have spoken with her by phone and visited her on three occasions and next week I was hoping to visit her again in Atlanta where she has lived and raised her daughter these past 39 years. But she now says she does not want to see; she would not know what to say. I think that’s funny ha ha, but I do understand why she does not want to see me. But, God willing, I think she will change her mind. If not, no big deal for me. Her life has changed for the better over the years and I think she has found a relationship with God. I would love to tell her what God has been doing in my life and I do believe God will arrange for this to happen in his good timing. As for me, I am divorced 33 years with a 35 year old son who has lived with me since he was 12. He is a fine young man but he is too immersed in and deceived by the organized evangelical/pentecostal types of churches. He has sent money to several corrupt TV evangelists, like Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn. He tells me they are anointed and the Bible says, “Don’t touch the Lord’s anointed.” I tell him that is ridiculous.
I have been getting to know Paul and Victor this past two weeks via email and phone conversation.
It has been a joy to get to know Mariko just through her genuine testimony. Harvest Haven sounds like a Godly kingdom community, something I have been looking for. Maybe one day God will orchestrate that I visit and personally meet Mariko and Mark, Paul, and Victor and their families and everyone else at Harvest Haven. I believe God is at work forming many such kingdom communities around the world.
Mark forwarded David’s letter to Victor and Paul, and Paul asked him what he thought of it. Mark’s response:
I am not sure what to make of it. There are several parts of it that do not click. First of all, he is sending this only to Mariko and me but is talking about both of us in the third person. Secondly, he states that the Japanese lady became a believer and that he believes there are many “kingdom communities” being formed around the world, which exposes his lack of discernment. Finally, Mariko said, and I agree, that his reason for writing somehow seemed to be linked to an association he drew between Mariko and nostalgia he felt for the Japanese woman he had this relationship with. He seems to still have attachment to this woman and somehow is rolling it all up together into one, rather confused, letter here.
Paul wrote to Mark and Mariko:
I agree with yours and Mariko’s assessment about David’s confusion and the part his interest in this Japanese woman plays in his reason for writing you.
The way David describes his spiritual journey over the last 10 years, God has been downloading new information into his system. He wasn’t really a sinner, so much as a malfunctioning piece of equipment, which is now repaired and restored with this new information. Much of this new data has to do with universal reconciliation and salvation. He has a variant form of the deadly error of the universalists, which basically absolves him of any responsibility to take direction (other than doctrinal teaching in agreement with his own) from the Lord or members of His Body on earth. It’s all about his doctrine and understanding of it that “saves” him. Some of the things he believes simply aren’t true, however, and have led him astray.
When we spoke to him of these things on The Path of Truth, telling him at the end of our chat that he needs to repent and trash his works (he has written a book on his revelations and doctrine), he said: “need to say good night and leave the repenting to you,” which sums up his attitude and stance. He is right that God must do it all, but he does not have the fear of God that precedes God’s doing His work of salvation through us, and rejects the fear of God as unnecessary (if not evil). Yet he thinks he is “nearing completion.” He is deluded.
His specific words he added to the chat after we signed out with him:
I am neither Jew nor Greek I am one who is perfect who understands the mysteries of God as St. Paul did.
David continued to write us letters, oblivious to, and unable to deal with, the things we told him about his spiritual disconnect and the deadly error in which he walked. That’s the way delusion works, serving as a bulwark against reality and truth, until judgment is fulfilled according to God’s wisdom and timing. So we worked while it was yet day, being given the opportunity to speak the truth that will bear fruit by God’s judgment on David.
In January 2011, Victor replied to one of David’s letters, bringing up several matters (ask us if you wish to see the full correspodence):
Amen, David, it’s not up to the saints or anyone else to create utopias of their own on earth. It’s either the Kingdom rule of God in men’s hearts, or nothing. God knows this earth is filled with the first Adam’s failed attempts at peaceful, prosperous congregations, communities, nations, and kingdoms. These proud and vain machinations have had their place in the Lord’s scheme of things, but are destined to be brought down in the end by the Stone. That time is now upon us….
You speak about the indwelling Christ within every man. We say that such doctrine is error and, more specifically, part of The Deadly Error of the Universalists. Let me ask you some thought-provoking questions in light of Scripture.
Are you telling us Hitler, Genghis Khan, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and all monsters of history had or have Christ in them, but that they simply go by their carnal minds? Which is greater, the carnal mind or Christ within?
What of this Word from John?
“You are of God, little children, and you have overcome them, because He Who is in you is greater than he who is in the world” (1 John 4:4 MKJV).
Are you not saying, in effect, “He who is in the world is greater than He Who is in you”?
“He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:12 MKJV).
Is there not a “having” and a “not having” of the Son, then?
Paul admonishes those in Corinth:
“Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5 MKJV)
Was Christ in Judas when Satan entered him? You might argue that Christ wasn’t yet glorified at the time of His betrayal, so He would not have yet been in Judas. Wouldn’t we have to believe, then, that the historical event of Christ’s death somehow rendered a change in the nature of all men, so that, though He didn’t dwell in them until some time after His ascension into Heaven, He dwells in them now?
And if that change did come, when and how did it happen? Did His Spirit immediately pass to all men on earth? Or was it only at Pentecost? Didn’t the indwelling of Christ only begin at that solemn feast time, first only with the 120, then the 3,000, then to the ends of the earth?
John put it this way:
“But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His Name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:12-13 MKJV).
All mankind from Adam has had (and been) the first Adam, but nowhere in Scripture do we find all men having (or being) the Last Adam, until He comes to each of them, personally. Do you not see that, David?
Correct me if I misunderstand, but perhaps you believe that the carnal man is “he that is in the world,” but the spirit in man is the Person Jesus Christ, or “He that is in you.” You appear to be saying that along with the carnal man, Christ is in all men, but just latent or concealed.
Is the apostle John saying to all, and not just to the saints, “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world”? Aren’t you saying, “He is in you, but for the moment, he that is in the world has the upper hand”?
Are not Christians defined Biblically as those in whom Christ dwells? How do you say, then, that Christ dwells in all men? How do you say that the Last Adam dwells in the first Adam, but the first Adam is greater? Isn’t that, in effect, what you are saying of those who are as Hitler or any unregenerate man, be he magnanimous, mild-mannered, malevolent, monstrous, murderous, or mad?
Is yours not a form of the New Age philosophy that has entered to confound the pure truth of the Gospel of God? Your doctrine, at least in part, certainly is what I was taught in the occultish Concept-Therapy: “Just believe! The god that is in you is infinitely powerful, and if you can just tap in and believe and persist, nothing for you will be impossible; you can accomplish anything you want or dream.” Earl Nightingale told me that in the seventies, quoting Mark 9:23.
Does not your premise logically lead to this frame of mind, if we have, and take seriously, the notion that we have something or Someone great within to work with?
Paul wrote in his doctrinal letter to the Romans, describing the crisis arising in him after Christ appeared to him and he was born again:
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find” (Romans 7:18 MKJV).
You seem to be saying, however, that in every man’s flesh does dwell not only a good thing, but none other than Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. You quote Galatians with an interpretation that assumes Christ was always in Paul, it only being a matter of time before He was revealed in him:
“But when it pleased God, Who separated me from my mother’s womb, and having called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the nations, immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood; Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those apostles before me, but I went into Arabia and returned again to Damascus” (Galatians 1:15-17 MKJV).
David, you depart from, or counter, the belief that Christ entered Saul when Ananias laid hands on him, at which time he received the Spirit of Christ. In effect, do you not teach that Saul persecuted to the death the One Who dwelt in others, though that same One dwelt in him, and caused those others to blaspheme Him Who simultaneously dwelt in Saul? Is God the author of confusion?
Granted, it’s nice to think and feel that there must surely be some good in everyone. Just the notion of that, reasonable or not, could evoke some comfort and hope. But there is such a thing as false hope, which, by its nature, is based in error. Hope founded in error leads to destruction every time, even death, where all lies lead. Only true hope will prevail, born of truth.
This is a very important matter. A person who believes that Christ is already in him won’t go on to fulfill godly repentance by faith and obedience, thereby receiving His Spirit and experiencing the new birth from above. Without the new birth, there can be no salvation:
“Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God” (John 3:5 MKJV).
Teaching unregenerate people that Christ is already in them is a strategy of the enemy, by which he keeps them in bondage to the fallen nature of the first Adam. It’s just a newer variation of the old temptation:
“And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:4-5 MKJV).
By proclaiming “Christ within” without the Substance, men attain a form of godliness by knowledge and self-determination, rather than by the actual Substance of true godliness within, Jesus Christ in His Own Person and Spirit. Only by His coming to dwell within can Christ do the work of transformation, which is our salvation.
This is what the apostle Paul taught:
Romans 8:9-11 MKJV
(9) But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
(10) And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(11) But if the Spirit of the One Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One Who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit Who dwells in you.
Can you see the crucial distinction qualified by the word “if”?
David wrote back, and we replied, quoting from his letter:
It’s true that the human mind can’t conceive or handle the things of God. You write of us, “Your finite minds are so full of conflicting thoughts, hypotheses and imaginations that I wonder if you sometimes don’t think you are mad.” You are reminded of Festus’ reaction to the apostle Paul:
“Paul, you rave! Your many letters turn you to insanity.”
And our answer to you is the same as Paul’s to Festus:
“Not to insanity, most noble Festus, but I speak words of truth and sanity” (Acts 26:24-25 MKJV).
If we have the mind of Christ, and we do, then we aren’t speaking from our carnal minds. Have you considered that you are evaluating what we say with your carnal mind, according to the natural man?
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14 MKJV).
As Victor has pointed out, because one isn’t capable of understanding us with the natural mind, doesn’t mean we don’t answer him according to the spiritual mind of Christ. Indeed, we are inspired by the Spirit to preach the Gospel so that men may come to faith. We know that faith comes by hearing, which comes by the preaching of the living Word of God, Jesus Christ. We speak Light into darkness, just as God did at creation.
Now if His Word is likened to seed, and it is (Matthew 13), we all know that the Seed must be planted. Nothing will happen if it isn’t planted. Without the Seed, there is nothing present within. Thus we expose the fatal flaw of your theory and reasoning, which leads you astray into troubling error that fogs your mind and keeps you from hearing and receiving the Seed in good ground.
I will cite some examples of your error, showing how your thinking led you to an unsupported false, dangerous conclusion. (You have at least been open in some measure to dialoguing and hearing what we say, David, even asking us for help in a recent letter. We hope to impart something good to you.) You write (bolding ours):
“You both come across as mad grand inquisitors who are bent on finding error through intense cross examination that often crosses the line and becomes devilish accusation of the brethren. I think a good court judge would recognize that much of your questioning is cleverly designed to lead a witness to see things from your perspective which may not be God’s perspective. Your perspective is often from a carnal reductionist mindset that cannot see the holistic universal spiritual perspective of God. When Jesus asked a leading question it was always designed to reveal God’ s perspective for the sake of setting men free from error.”
I have emphasized your charges and the conclusion they lead you to about us, though you offer no proof for your charges. You simply state your opinion about what you think we are doing and why, as if that is proof in itself. It isn’t, not by any reasonable measure of man, and certainly not by any measure of God.
You need to bring forth the requisite two or three witnesses of Him if you will accuse anyone of wrongdoing, David. But if you don’t have those, and you don’t, better to hold your peace and listen to our proofs against your several errors. Otherwise, you may fall into the condemnation of a false accuser, being a breaker of God’s commandment and thereby coming against Him.
You do believe that sin brings death, don’t you? Or do you believe there is no more sin or penalty for it, seeing no one has a free will and Christ has paid the debt in full?
I will now answer portions of your letter in the order they appear – most if not all are tied in with your central error that proclaims Christ is in every man, assuming this is true for yourself while you speak from your carnal mind. You aren’t speaking from Him; you have yet to receive His Spirit.
“‘Then certain of the Scribes answered said, Master, thou has well said. And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.’ Who were the ‘certain’ of the Scribes? They were those who were thinking with the mind of their inward man which is the mind of Christ in every man. The others were carnal thinkers who could not understand spiritual things.”
What you suggest, David, is not supported by the Scriptures, either here or elsewhere. There is no indication given anywhere that this scribe was thinking with the mind of the Christ. On the contrary, we know that no man, including the Lord’s disciples, had His mind at that time. John the Baptizer, as great as any man born of woman (according to Jesus), said to the Lord:
“But John restrained Him, saying, I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” (Matthew 3:14 MKJV)
John recognized that he needed to receive Christ within, the baptism in His Spirit. Until then, John didn’t have the mind of Christ, though he was a holy man of God and perfect in his generation. He was inspired by God, knew the Lord, and was aligned with Him, but wasn’t yet one with Him and sharing His mind as those who receive His Spirit do:
“But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified” (John 7:39 MKJV).
“But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God…. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:12,16 MKJV).
Only after Christ was glorified could men enter that heavenly place with Him:
“And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He Who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man Who is in Heaven” (John 3:13 MKJV).
Of John, Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven is taken by violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matthew 11:11-12 MKJV).
John the Baptist had revelation, his mind was enlightened by God, he was even filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb, but that still isn’t the same thing as having the mind of Christ.
As for the scribe who commended the Lord on His reply (see Mark 12:28-34 for details), we see a man being drawn by the Father, but not yet there (“you are not far from the Kingdom”). The Holy Seed found good ground that would yield fruit in the not too distant future. Then there would be a new life in the likeness of Christ, and not just agreement in doctrine.
Agreement in a true doctrine doesn’t mean one has the mind of Christ any more than a Jehovah’s Witness is a Catholic because he believes Christ lived as a man 2,000 years ago. So Pharisees who believed in the resurrection didn’t have the mind of Christ, and scribes didn’t have the mind of Christ because they believed in the resurrection.
By the way, when Paul said, “We have the mind of Christ,” he was plainly not speaking to, or of, all men, but to, and of, the saints – himself, the Corinthians, and all who believed. The text and its meaning are plain enough, given the context of all Scripture, with multiple witnesses.
Your interpretation of Jesus’ words in Luke 20 is in error. You write:
“When Jesus says God is the God of the living for all live unto him, this ‘all’ includes all men not just those who believe. It includes even Hitler, Judas and any other great sinners you might cite.”
Sinners are not alive (in this world or the next), according to God’s definition of the word, as used here. Hitler, in his demon-possessed state, could not be said to be living to God. Neither could that be said of Judas, as the betrayer of Christ, or he wouldn’t have killed himself. These are not the works of those who are living to God.
That’s why God didn’t say to Moses, “I am the God of Cain, Nimrod, and Esau.” Instead He spoke of Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because they are alive in His presence, showing that they weren’t gone after physically dying. They were and are still alive with Him. “But the dead know nothing…” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The dead know nothing because they aren’t alive to Him, whether in this world or the next. “Let the dead bury the dead,” Jesus said.
You continue your erring argument for the false notion that all are alive to God, now:
“This is also true when St. Paul writes, ‘As in Adam all men die, so in Christ Jesus shall all men be made alive.’”
The operative word here is “shall.” In due time, all men will be reconciled to God, made alive in Christ (meaning they must first be dead). That’s why God sends His servants to speak to the dry bones of Israel, as illustrated in Ezekiel 37.
More of your thinking on this:
“Regarding my knowledge that Christ is in all mankind, the godly question to ask should be, When did Christ enter into all mankind? Is it when a man first believes as evangelicals teach? Was it on the day of Pentecost as many teach? No, not at all. It was when God created man in his image and breathed his spirit into Adam and he became a living soul. The image of God and God’s spirit that was breathed into Adam IS Christ!!!”
It is true that all men are sustained by the breath of God, as it is written:
“If He sets His heart on man, if He gathers to Himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again to dust” (Job 34:14-15 MKJV).
But that is only speaking of physical life of all creatures, including dogs and pigs, not the eternal life of God in Christ. As it is also written:
“But man, though high in honor, does not remain; he is like the animals that perish” (Psalms 49:12 MKJV).
And: “Man in honor, but without understanding, is like the animals; they shall perish” (Psalms 49:20 MKJV).
So where is Christ in those who perish without understanding? How can He be there? Jesus said:
“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [perish]” (John 11:26 MKJV).
There is no reconciling your theory with the Word of God, David. According to what you espouse, beasts are also Christians, seeing how Christ made them and gives them breath:
“For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV).
Men who are as beasts perish without Christ. They haven’t been made alive in Him yet. You would say Christ is dormant in them, but as we have shown you, there is no Scriptural justification for that. In fact, the Scriptures say the opposite:
“Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh… and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:11-12 MKJV).
According to you, David, all men always have hope, because Jesus Christ is in them already. To you this is a liberating notion, but in reality it would be burdensome and tormenting. It can only be liberating if one were to call his imagination and carnal mind “Christ,” proceeding from there in a fool’s paradise of acting out what is unreal. Where does that get you, other than ultimately in more trouble?
And where does it get the naïve who believe you, except into presumption, cynicism, justification for their evils, and mockery of God (“David says Christ lives in me so I must be doing His will!”)?
You are unclear as to whether you believe an unbeliever can rightly and successfully attempt to think and act with the mind of Christ or not. You seem to believe that none can do anything but what God gives him to do, yet on the other hand, you seem to encourage unregenerate men and promote the idea of their trying to think and act by the “Christ” within rather than by the carnal mind. It is confusion.
Trying to connect oneself to the supposedly latent “Christ” within, thereby effecting a spiritual transformation, is an impossible task that makes man his own savior or, at least, partial source of good. That’s why it’s burdensome and tormenting to any sober, sincere seeker of truth, who depends on God to do the work. Only one who is under strong delusion will insist on doing it himself, being drunk on mixed wine (spiritual things mixed with the flesh).
Or the alternative to trying to effect “Christ” within – simply waiting for it to happen – means nothing will ever happen. Without repentance (Acts 3:19), without obedience (Acts 5:32), and without searching for God with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13), you will remain forever dead in your sins. Yes, one must wait on the Lord, but faith without works is dead. When He comes, you will act in the faith He brings you. Your theory, David, doesn’t account for these things, because it isn’t about faith, but about doctrine and what you believe with the carnal mind, as true as the doctrine may be.
Any way one looks at your theory, it doesn’t square up with the Word of God and His documented Way of life, which we confirm in our testimonies and teachings. Neither does God bear witness of your revelation.
Continuing with your explanation:
“When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden fruit, sin (the devil’s DNA) entered into their genetic makeup alongside their spiritual DNA which is Christ, the image and spirit of God. At that point in human history on earth God decreed that the devil’s seed (DNA) would have enmity (contention, jihad) with Eve’s seed (the DNA of Christ). The devil’s seed would bruise (vex) Eve’s seed (Christ) but Eve’s seed (Christ) would bruise (destroy) the devil’s seed.”
You propose that man is simultaneously a sinner and a latent saint. According to your theory, Christ needn’t have come and suffered, since He was already in every man. This battle you describe should have been evident within both Cain and Abel, as the children of Adam and Eve who each supposedly had the two DNAs. But it didn’t happen that way. Abel had faith and Cain didn’t. The Scriptures declare that Cain was of the evil one, not Abel.
Eve’s seed had yet to come and wouldn’t for many generations. There was a purpose that needed to be worked out first. Only in the fullness of times did Christ, the Seed, come to put away the works of the devil.
That’s not to say that all men since Adam haven’t been born in evil. Paul gave a composite of several Scriptures that say this very thing:
Romans 3:9-18 MKJV
(9) What then? Do we excel? No, in no way; for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks all with being under sin,
(10) as it is written: There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one.
(13) Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
(14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
(15) their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16) destruction and misery are in their way,
(17) and the way of peace they did not know.
(18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So we see that all men are born in sin, though some find grace in the sight of God, like Noah and Abraham. There has always been a remnant of children of faith in the midst of this darkened world, according to the will of God. He has chosen whom He wills, before the birth, as He said to Jeremiah:
“Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5 MKJV).
And as the apostle Paul points out about Jacob, the twin who was chosen, in contrast to the other, Esau, who was not:
Romans 9:10-12 MKJV
(10) And not only this, but when Rebekah also had conceived by one, by our father Isaac
(11) (for the children had not yet been born, neither had done any good or evil; but that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him Who called,)
(12) it was said to her, “The elder shall serve the younger.”
According to your theory, as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), it’s not a matter of works to you (which is good), but God “activates” the “Christ” who is within all men, when He chooses. This is not true. Has it not struck you as strange and problematic that such an event is never mentioned in any of the Scriptures? God says it’s simply a matter of whom He chooses and gives the grace (the substance of Christ) to believe, something He predestined from the beginning.
Though you would deny your theory is advocating works, it puts the onus on man to realize the “Christ” within by a carnal faith in its (not His) presence. How can I not be responsible to manifest Christ, once I know and believe that He is within me? But if He’s not within, I’m on a fool’s errand trying to be as God.
This contradiction seems to be in your correspondence with Terrance Harris. You criticize him and the Mullins for sinning (sowing to the flesh, thus reaping corruption) while God, you say, forgives them. A couple of quotes:
“These programs might seem to be kingdom solutions but you know that unless they are motivated by the Holy Spirit they will fail just as all man-motivated utopian (false kingdom) ideas fail.
The scriptures remain true that say, ‘There is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are the ways of death’.”
“Instead of operating in the faith of God, they are just wishful thinking, doing something, leaning to their own understanding and then asking God to bless it as most modern church people are prone to do due to their ignorance and immaturity. Of course God forgives them and continues to nurture and chasten them as any good father would do [my bolding], who loves his children.”
On the other hand, you also say:
“Terrance, be patient. Wait upon the Lord. Do not be precocious and conformed to the world. In time, perhaps a few years, your outward man will perish while your inward man is renewed and matured. This is God’s will and kingdom plan for you and all mankind. When you are perfected your inward man will be completed (matured) and then the Jesus in you will be able to do the works that he sees his father doing. This is the mystery of Christ in you the hope of glory.”
So what are those in the world to do, if one can even judge who those are? Are they to do or not to do? And if they are to do, but can’t, how do they get there so that they can? How are their efforts and applications different from those who have personally met the Lord, as we have?
How would you counsel the old man, Saul of Tarsus, in whom you say Christ dwelt, and how would you counsel the new man since Damascus, the apostle Paul?
Paul tells Timothy that the faith of some can be overthrown (2 Timothy 2:18). If you tell someone he has Christ within when he doesn’t, shall this not dull his motivation to seek after Christ to be in him? Shall it not give him a false sense of security? Faith seeks after God, but will one seek who falsely believes he has Christ? Not only do you err, David, but we perceive that your doctrine can be detrimental to the spiritual welfare of your hearers.
Your theology doesn’t square with biology, either, the way of God’s creation. He makes things to be one way or another, not as confusing mixtures. There is no “genetic engineering” in creation, mixing the DNA of the Devil with the DNA of Christ. Man mixes things, but not God. Indeed, the Law prohibits mixture in a variety of ways, as solemnly impressed in Leviticus, with animals, grains, garments, and peoples (believer and unbeliever), based on His nature and way of doing things.
Consider the twelve disciples whom Jesus chose. According to your theory, Jesus should have said to them, “I chose the twelve of you, all being mixtures of Me and the Devil, but only one of you has gone totally Devil.” But we know that didn’t happen. Here’s the way it did happen and what He said: “I chose the twelve of you, didn’t I? Yet one of you is a devil!” (John 6:70 GNB)
And how could the Lord call His disciples clean if they were of the Devil? “Jesus said to [Peter], He who is bathed has no need except to wash his feet, but is clean every whit. And you are clean, but not all. For He knew who would betray Him. Therefore He said, You are not all clean” (John 13:10-11 MKJV).
When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, He didn’t say, “You are of your Father, God, and of your other father, the Devil.” He said, “You are of your father, the Devil.” He plainly told them God was not their Father:
“You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God. Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me” (John 8:41-42 MKJV).
Men don’t have multiple fathers:
“For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for I have begotten you in Christ Jesus through the Gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:15 MKJV).
Can you see how your theory doesn’t adapt to reality or square with the Scriptures? You reject the fact that we must be begotten of Christ, receiving His Spirit and being born again of Him. You say:
“Yet many, like Stephen E. Jones, believe that Adam and Eve somehow lost the image of God or that they died spiritually and the spirit of God (Christ) was removed from them at the forbidden tree. And therefore the erroneous ‘born again’ doctrine that is based upon this error says that mankind must be born again by believing in and accepting Jesus Christ as personal savior. This is a doctrine of the devil.”
You side with the Serpent, calling God and Christ a liar. The Serpent also told Eve that God was lying when He told Adam that he would die when he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Since Adam didn’t physically die, there is no alternative except that he spiritually died. Or God did lie, which is impossible (Hebrews 6:18).
And just because men aren’t born again “by accepting Jesus Christ as personal savior” doesn’t mean they aren’t born again His way, by His initiation and doing:
Ephesians 1:4-6 MKJV
(4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
Your theory on being born again:
“‘Born again’ actually means the process of spiritual maturing in which the DNA of Christ in every man directs the conformity of every man to the image and stature of Christ in the same way that our physical DNA directs our physical development into an adult male or female human being. This physical as well as our spiritual maturing process just happens without our knowledge just as a baby develops in the dark womb of its mother. After the nine month gestation development process a baby is born from the darkness of its mother’s womb into the light of day. So it is with being born of the spirit. We all go through the same spiritual process from being born from spiritual darkness in the light of the kingdom of God’s dear son. In this way all mankind become the sons of God, who were born not of the will of the flesh, or of blood or of the will of man but of God.”
How then shall you explain how some come to personal knowledge of, and active life in, Christ at an early earthly age, some later, and most never?
So you make reference to some of the attributes of the natural processes created by God. But you lack the requisite factors to produce a new life, supplying what is needed for the process of formation and birth, namely, a mother and a father.
A baby doesn’t appear out of thin air; neither is a saint conceived and birthed that way. There is a father and a mother who come together. The Father is God and the Mother is Heavenly Jerusalem. More can be said on these, but for now, the point is that the spiritual birth process you describe has no conception and no spiritual connection to a mother for the place of development. It simply happens, with one serving as his own mother, it seems. That’s not reality. And it’s not faith; faith is real, giving evidence to things not seen, whereas what you present is pure fantasy.
And this fantasy leads to fantastic conclusions:
“St. Paul makes it very clear to me in Eph. 2:10 that we (all mankind) are all God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. This includes Hitler, Judas and all great sinners of human history… When we read about the Holy Spirit coming upon men such as on Pentecost, it does not mean the spirit was not already in the men.”
That’s not what Jesus said. He told those who received the Spirit on Pentecost:
“…the Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you” (John 14:17 MKJV).
Future tense, David. Jesus, by way of His Spirit, came to indwell His disciples at Pentecost and indwelled us when we experienced our day of Pentecost. So you are wrong when you say:
“It means the spirit came to empower, to build up, to mature and and to renew the Holy Spirit of Christ, the inward man already in men. St. Paul write that while our outward man (the satanic man) perishes (dies) the inward man is renewed day by day.”
Paul wasn’t speaking of all mankind to the Ephesians. He was speaking of the saints who were called and chosen of God in their generation with him. Paul wasn’t talking to those who didn’t believe. He was talking to those who had Christ’s Spirit:
“For we, having the same Spirit of faith (according as it is written, ‘I believed, and therefore I have spoken’); we also believed and therefore speak, knowing that He Who raised up the Lord Jesus shall also raise us up by Jesus, and shall present us with you” (2 Corinthians 4:13-14 MKJV).
How does one receive the Spirit if already having the Spirit? And how can you say, “the spirit came to empower, to build up, to mature and to renew the Holy Spirit of Christ”? Does the Holy Spirit of Christ need empowering, building up, and maturing?
Why do you say “the spirit” with a small “s” ministers to the Spirit with a large “s”? Are you simply being careless with your spelling, besides being in great error?
The errors continue to mount because the foundation is false:
“We only read of the spirit of God leaving a man when a man dies and gives up the Holy Ghost and it returns to God. St John writes that Jesus was the life and light of men. If Hitler and Judas did not have Jesus in them they would have been dead. This is confirmed by the verse that says, ‘He that has the son has life, he that has not the son has not life.’”
God animates all men by the breath of His Spirit, but not all men have His Spirit or Living Nature. That requires the new birth in Christ, which follows repentance and obedience. Hitler and Judas were dead. Men of this world who aren’t following the Lord are the dead of whom Jesus spoke, “Let the dead bury the dead.” They do not have the Son.
The confidence you place in the meanings you attach to the Scriptures precisely reflects The Deadly Error of the Universalists, in perhaps slightly different dress. We have proven you wrong here as well as in that paper. Until a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).
“I could go on and on proving from scripture that all men have Christ dwelling in them regardless of what they believe or do. This is the mystery of Christ, in you, the hope of glory. The hope of glory is that the Christ in every man will overcome the devil in every man so that in the end every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Thus all will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Let me ask you some questions, David. You write:
“I did not understand these things when I was walking for forty years as a self-oriented fundamentalist evangelical Calvinist, leaning to my own carnal understanding believing in the error of Christ’s vicarious sacrifice for my sin.”
Are you saying you don’t believe Christ was sacrificed for your sin? What other sacrifice can atone for your sin and reconcile you to God? Or is there another way to forgiveness and reconciliation? How do you propose a man is made whole? And what of the following Scripture? How and why did Christ taste death on behalf of all?
“But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all” (Hebrews 2:9 MKJV).
I perceive that Jesus Christ is a force or influence to you and not an Individual Being with feelings and desires. It is God Himself communing with His people who hear His voice and follow Him wherever He goes. You haven’t known Him yet; you haven’t been born again. We are telling you these things so that you may know Him by hearing of Him as He is, not as you have artificially constructed Him.
Paul and Victor
After writing this reply, we returned to addressing another matter David had previously brought to our attention. Letter from David:
In my life, I have had to deal with several people who are mentally ill according to worldly psychiatric standards of diagnosis. My knowledge of worldly psychiatric standards was acquired mostly from my experience working as a volunteer crisis line counselor in the Marion County Psyhchiatric lockup facility in Ocala, Florida in the late sixties. At that time I was dealing with my manic depressive wife and with close friends and relatives who were cocaine addicts and alcoholics. Last year, my alcoholic cousin, Alan, died as a result of his overdosing on a mixture of oxycodone and Xanax that he snorted through a straw….
Currently I am dealing with a Russian lady friend who is temporarily living in my house in the front living room. We have no romantic relationship at all. Its a long involved story covering the past ten years but basically I am helping her because God told me to help her.
Two years ago, she could not find a job that paid a living wage. (She is a licensed aesthetician, a store clerk, substitute teacher, house cleaner and an artist (painter).) As a consequence she could not pay her mortgage payment and she subsequently, just this year, lost her house in foreclosure. I believe her financial stress was surely a contributing factor to her becoming paranoid schizophrenic. She started hearing voices, she said were the voices of people she had met at an Ashram in Miami. She claims they touched her head and hypnotized her. She said she felt heat in her head at the point where the man touched her head with his hand.
I took her for counsel at a nearby church with a long time acquaintance who calls himself a Christian Psychologist.
After hearing her story, He told me he could not help her unless she was saved (in the evangelical sense) He suggested we take her to a hospital for physical evaluation. She refused to be examined by a doctor.
The reason I am telling you this is to ask you your take on mental illness. In all your Internet dialogues can you discern mental illness in the people with whom you are dialoguing? Have you ever counseled people you know are mentally ill? …
God has been revealing to me that all diseases, whether physical or mental are works of the devil. In God’s judgment, the devil and his evil works (tares) are removed (by angels) from all of God’s living creation (including all animals, mankind and plants) and are metaphorically burned up in the Lake of Fire. In this way all God’s creation will be saved and healed from the devil’s evil works. God sent his son Jesus to earth to destroy all the works of the devil. The last devil-work to be destroyed is death.
This godly doctrine is all wrapped up in Jesus’s words recorded in John 12:31-32,
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
This sound godly doctrine leaves no place for mankind’s free will and choice. The doctrine that says mankind has a free will choice in his salvation is the main doctrine of the devil that the Holy Spirit is now exposing and destroying through spiritually mature men like you and I and others.
I await your thoughtful reply,
And he sent this note regarding Victor’s Theo-autobiography:
…But I must tell you that reading your website, especially your theo autobiography has enlightened me with many facts about you, Canada and the beliefs of others that I did not know. I am pleased to learn there are many others who believe in universal salvation as I do. I do not agree with what you call the fatal error of Universalism. Why must you be so dramatic calling it a fatal error?
We have a lot in common growing up in the same generation listening to the radio with the Lone Ranger and Roy Rogers etc. Your description of your Ukranian upbringing and your Catholic church with its odors of incontinent old people mixed in with incense struck a chord with me as I am old (67) and sometimes incontinent with poopy pants which is most embarrassing. [Editor’s Note: Victor’s Theo-autobiography did not mention incontinence in that particle.] Thank God it does not happen often. It is associated with my diabetes which God is giving me knowledge to control and heal. I once had a Ukranian girlfriend named Kathy…. She was quite lost as a displaced person but she found a course in miracles to help her in her displaced state. At that time I was a rabid fundamentalist evangelical but I did not want to disturb her with my beliefs. The sex I had with her was almost good but I can hardly remember it now….
In addition to the letters above, David sent a reply to Paul and Victor’s former letter. David took the letter and interspersed comments within Paul’s paragraphs; he gave yet more opinion and doctrinal confusion, and this time mixed in some false accusation and innuendo, turning this good opportunity to learn in the truth into a platform for evil.
This is now the third or fourth time you have brought something up that has been a matter of discussion happening amongst us here. There were specific false teachers you brought up, rather obscure ones we had just been discussing; then there was the subject of Satan being a man, which subject we have been recently writing about for a new teaching; now you bring up a question about your friend who hears voices. On the very same day you asked us if we have had any experiences with the mentally ill (or, as in this case, the demonically possessed), we received the following letter from a young woman to whom we have been ministering:
Thank you Victor, Paul, and Sara for the prayer concerning my condition with demon possession.
After the first day I felt the condition was less intense. There was not as much pressure on my brain. By the second day, I could no longer hear the “voice” that used to speak to me!!!! PRAISE THE LORD. THANK YOU JESUS!!!!!! ( I could still hear some random voices in the background which were not exactly the voice that used to talk to me, but it sounded far away, and I am expecting that to clear up as well !) Anyhow, it is obvious that the prayer has had a dramatic influence on this condition. For 5 years, I have been trying to get free, and it is finally here !!!!! Thank you.
You all were right to say if I continued in pursuing the Lord, that I would eventually be freed. It was so true. During me studding false doctrine, I found this site, and spoke to you guys, and got freed!! .I wasn’t expecting that ! I am so thankful. Thank you for the time you all have spent with me.
I am also very excited about the web site ! It is full of very good articles that I have begun to read. I also am really happy that it is possible to actually click on the site and speak to someone. That is great. I am going to continue to read my Bible and to read the articles on your great site! The Lord has blessed me to find you all and to find your articles on so many aspects of the walk with the Lord.
So there you have it, David. We are familiar with, and have dealt with, such situations as you face. Not only are we familiar, but we have the power to cast out devils, as Jesus gave commandment to His servants:
“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give” (Matthew 10:8 EMTV).
But for one to receive the exercise of these gifts, she must have faith.
“And He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief” (Matthew 13:58 MKJV).
“This one heard Paul speaking; and Paul, looking intently at him, and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, Stand up on your feet! And he leaped and walked” (Acts 14:9-10 MKJV).
Your friend is not able to receive deliverance at this time because she doesn’t have faith. I am not saying, like that wicked pretender, the “Christian” psychologist you talked to, that she must be “saved” to receive deliverance. Paul didn’t ask the cripple for a doctrinal declaration, and the Lord didn’t say to do any such thing, only to “freely give.” The psychologist has no idea at all what that means; he is just a sectarian preacher of doctrine, a captive slave of Satan.
Your friend isn’t prepared to freely receive from the Lord (and unlike what you preach, Christ is not within her to save her). She is suffering on account of her sins and must yet suffer more before she comes to the place where she is ready to turn from her sins and to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. Then will the Lord provide her with deliverance in any way He chooses, through His servants.
She received devils at that ashram in Miami, a place full of every evil. But she wasn’t an innocent bystander. She went there of her own volition, given over to the wicked on account of her own wickedness. Seeking freedom and power without Christ (though often in His Name) is surely Satan’s snare for men. Your friend fell into that snare because she sought those things while retaining her lusts and sins.
We all deserve death, not exaltation, and we must face reality about who and what we are, rather than seeking out clever schemes to make ourselves gods. That’s what your friend was doing, without recognition of herself as a sinner in need of forgiveness and humility before God.
And you do the same, David. We see the wisdom in God bringing you together with this woman, like two peas in a pod, showing you where your sin-denying, self-Christifying doctrine takes you. You need to repent, big time.
And this brings us to at least a fourth coincidence between us, this one quite remarkable as a sure witness from above.
You mention in your most recent letter to Victor that you have problems with pooping your pants. That same night, January 14th, you also sent a reply to me, responding to our previous letter of exhortation. I didn’t receive your letter till the next morning, but that night I had a dream from God:
I dreamt of a man, one who presumed to be a minister of Christ, to whom I lent a pair of pants. I later found those pants strewn over a chair (he hadn’t properly returned them), and when I inspected the pants, they were full of poop.
I turned the pants upside down and emptied the poop into some kind of indoor sanitizing pool. As I dumped the poop in the pool, it quickly dissipated and disappeared, though I had to use a long-handled scraper to remove it from the sides of the pool. Far more poop came out of the pants than seemed humanly possible. [End of Dream]
That man was you, David. We gave you clean “pants” to walk in and to cover the shame of your nakedness, but instead of appreciatively receiving or using them, you filled them with poop and left them strewn about like random trash. We gave you the answers from God that would deliver you from your utter foolishness and self-destruction in our recent letter, and you filled it with your poop, even calling our words “crap” (but God showed who was full of crap). Far from being ashamed, as you ought to be, in a cavalier attitude towards God and man, you leave that which was given to you clean and valuable, filled with the dung of your evil doctrine and contempt.
You are incontinent at both ends, David, and the contents are the same. The answers you gave us are simply excrement, the remnants of what you have taken from the Holy Word of God and processed through your carnal mind and uncircumcised heart, the imaginations of an unregenerate spirit, wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction.
As I saw in my dream, you have no use for us or our “pants.” All you care about is yourself and the diabolical doctrine that feeds your fantasy that you are manifesting Christ. You don’t care one iota about Him; nor do you care about the woman who lives with you or any other person. It’s all about you and you alone – a legend in your own mind looking for a place to happen. Those people are only one-dimensional objects, phantasmal enablers of your delusion, supporting your image of yourself in your mad theory.
You say that God has been revealing to you that all diseases are the work of the Devil. But God says that He wouldn’t put any of those diseases on those who keep His commandments. In other words, God does it, and the onus is on you as the one claiming His Name, that if you don’t obey God, you are liable to being stricken by Him, not by the Devil. You are the ally and co-worker of the Devil, your own worst enemy, bringing disease, disaster, and destruction on your head.
You speak of Kathy as a lost and displaced person being helped by A Course in Miracles. Will a person be helped by the work of devils? In the world of your imagination, you believe that, but lies like A Course in Miracles bring more death and destruction. You don’t recognize that because you are a devil yourself. You speak of fornicating with Kathy as if there was nothing wrong with it. What kind of “rabid fundamentalist” were you? A very hypocritical one, and you haven’t changed a whit, but for window dressing – no new nature there.
You have never experienced repentance and cleansing from your sins, David. Instead of confessing and forsaking your sins, you found a way to deny they even exist, blaming your devil DNA. You only went from being a worldly religious hypocrite to being a fanatical fool in great delusion and denial, destroying yourself and anyone who would be so foolish as to listen to you. Is it any wonder you are cursed with a curse of incontinence such as yours, with more to come?
We have told you the Truth, and you have despised Him. As with your father the Devil, you accuse, lie, and blaspheme. We won’t answer your crap anymore, though you will perish in it, as you choose.
David’s reply and challenge:
Dear Paul and Victor,
Thank you for your kind words of edification and correction. It was what I had expected from precocious and immature siblings in the Lord. I figured you would break off communication when you realized I was unsusceptible to your accusations and lies. You need not waste any more time with me. I do not blame mankind for sin as you do. I abide in the mercy of God in Christ who said, hanging on the cross, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” I do not embrace the evil spirit of the Pharisees that you embrace that omits the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. Jesus is my witness along with many others who have contended with you on your website. I challenge you to post this response on your website and to see how many witnesses there are that agree with me. So go ahead and rend your garments now as all good Pharisees are prone to do when confronted with their self-righteous ways and the truth of Christ that is within them. Amen
Have a nice day unless you have already planned otherwise.
Your elder brother in Christ,
P.S. When Jesus encountered a man possessed with devils, the devils controlled the mind and voice of the man so he could not express his faith in words. But in action, when he saw Jesus, he ran and worshiped Jesus. This indicates the faith of Jesus was in the man as it is in all men. I know my Russian friend has this faith of Jesus in her also and she has expressed it in words and in action by praying and asking Jesus to heal her mind. She asks me to lay hands on her head and when I do she is relieved of the devil’s control.
David demonstrates the delusion of one who walks in the deadly error of the Universalists (though these principles and behaviors will apply to many who walk in religious error and self-righteousness).
Never having experienced repentance from his sins, David comes to us agreeing with some doctrine rather than agreeing with Jesus Christ in godly living, which comes by walking in the Light by Him:
“So far all I have read on your web site confirms what God has been revealing to me over the past five years about the truth of Jesus and his universal kingdom message.”
What good are these supposed revelations from God, when David shows no godly sorrow or shame at mentioning his fornicating ways? Indeed, he is wistful and proud of his sin, yet he professes the Name of the Savior Who shed His blood to atone for such transgression:
“I once had a Ukranian girlfriend named Kathy…. She was quite lost as a displaced person but she found a course in miracles to help her in her displaced state. At that time I was a rabid fundamentalist evangelical but I did not want to disturb her with my beliefs. The sex I had with her was almost good but I can hardly remember it now.”
After finding out that we keep and teach the Lord’s commandments and they apply to him, David is offended and no longer agrees with our teachings, though they haven’t changed:
“Your finite minds are so full of conflicting thoughts, hypotheses and imaginations that I wonder if you sometimes don’t think you are mad.”
David’s own internal conflict with truth leaves him confounded and contradicting himself. At first he agrees with us listing Prinzing and Eby as false teachers:
“i agree with what you write about Stephen E. Jones, L. Ray Smith, Ray Prinzing and J. Preston Eby and others.”
Then later backtracks and speaks of us as being in agreement with them:
“But the manner in which you present the truth that you know is rather atrocious just like the angry manners of L. Ray Smith, who I think is dead now. I have dialogued often with him when I was writing my book. I also have read (not red) a lot of what Ray Prinsing and Pastor Eby have written all of which you seem to agree with.”
David now finds others who disagree with us or condemn us on our site, and they are now acceptable to him, after being confronted on his contradiction and lack of relationship with the Lord:
“At least two of the men with whom you have dialogued have witnessed similar things as I have witnessed about you. I think it was Jack who said your photos reminded him of the Heaven’s gate cult. That made me laugh but I understood why he said what he did. I was much in agreement with much of the response of that guy from tenmakers (hutt or tutt).”
He condemns us with opinion and intellectual, esoteric hogwash, not godly proof or substance:
“You both come across as mad grand inquisitors who are bent on finding error through intense cross examination that often crosses the line and becomes devilish accusation of the brethren. I think a good court judge would recognize that much of your questioning is cleverly designed to lead a witness to see things from your perspective which may not be God’s perspective. Your perspective is often from a carnal reductionist mindset that cannot see the holistic universal spiritual perspective of God. When Jesus asked a leading question it was always designed to reveal God’s perspective for the sake of setting men free from error.”
Yet in saying all these things, he blatantly lies about what he has done, acting as if the “Christ” is working in him, when he is plainly doing the Devil’s work:
“I am not charging you.”
He is a hypocrite, acting as if he honors the Law of God while going against it by falsely accusing those who fulfill it (not to mention being a proud fornicator):
“I do not embrace the evil spirit of the Pharisees that you embrace that omits the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith.”
David appeals to the testimony of men, and calls his own unverified opinion, along with theirs, the witness of “Jesus”:
“Jesus is my witness along with many others who have contended with you on your website.”
And denies the validity of the Scriptures applied to him and his doctrine:
“My knowledge comes by rhema revelation that needs no scriptural support. I have long since abandoned the devil doctrine of Sola Scriptura. So please stop with your evangelical scripture support dogma.”
Then reverses himself by saying he does go by God’s Word. He’s just a lone ranger with no need for correction by the Body:
“I don’t have any need for your criticism. God’s word reproves, corrects and instructs me in righteousness and provides me with godly sound doctrine so that I might become mature and conformed to the image and stature of the Christ that is programmed in my Christ DNA in which I was created so that I am thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
But his lightness and mixed-up doctrine continually exposes him as a liar who has no use for God or His Holy Scriptures:
I have much enjoyed reading the path of life website. I have read maybe 20% of it. What I have read has served to confirm the revelation God has given me that salvation is all the work of God. Man cannot do anything to be saved. Salvation just happend to every man acording to God’s plan and timing.
I believe all men are called to be saints, even the sons of God conformed to the image and stature of Christ the first born of many brethren
“Many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).
“He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His Name” (John 1:11-12 MKJV).
But, the Bible says, not all have believed:
“And as He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, at the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the miracles which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all and did not need that anyone should testify of man. For He knew what was in man” (John 2:23-25 MKJV).
“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).
Many are cold but few are frozen. The calling is into God’s service but Satan enters in and disqualifys men for god’s service but only on this temporal plane.
“But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Matthew 8:22 MKJV).
But none of this is a problem to David, because he bears no personal responsibility for his sin, according to his version of the deadly error. It is Satan, not he, who is responsible for his sin:
“God the Father is the motivator. Satan is the sinner. Jesus is my Lord and savior who is saving me from my selfish self which has been crucified with him.”
This theory leads to more contradiction and confusion:
“Thank you for your misplaced concern but I know my satanic sin man was crucified with Christ and only Christ now lives in me as he always has. Yet some of the venom of sin remains but is being removed daily by Christ in me the hope of glory.”
If the “satanic sin man” was crucified, how is it that he yet speaks and acts? That wasn’t the case with the apostle Paul:
“I am crucified with Christ [not his ‘satanic sin man,’ but ‘I’] nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God [and not by Satan], Who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20 KJV).
Dividing himself in two, David has found a convenient scapegoat for his sin – his “satanic self” as opposed to his “Christ self”:
“What I am saying is that every man has a satanic self and a Christ self just as the apostle Paul taught. He called the satanic self the outward man that can only sin and he called the Christ self the inward man that cannot sin because it delights in the law of God.”
But not once in the Scriptures, including in all that Paul wrote, do we ever hear of the “satanic self” getting blamed for sin. It’s always “you’re the man” – the individual who sins is held responsible:
“In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, with my spirit; also, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ; to deliver such a ONE to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1 Corinthians 5:4-5 MKJV).
David takes what applies only to repentant believers and applies it to himself (by saying it applies to all):
“‘For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works….’ Christians think that since St. Paul was writing to Ephesian believers, it applys only to believers but the truth is St. Paul was talking about all men universally.”
Because we hold him accountable for sin and the error he teaches in Christ’s Name, he faults us:
“I do not blame mankind for sin as you do.”
While the Lord Jesus (and we in Him) condemns no man, He does call all men to repentance (Acts 17:30).
“Now we know that as many things as the Law says, it speaks to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God” (Romans 3:19 EMTV).
David Thompson claims to be sent by God to help you through this muddle he has concocted with the help of devils (even using the jargon of another demonically-inspired “prophet,” Muhammad):
“I am a prophet teacher who helps those God has entrusted to me to stop opposing themselves, their selves being their outward and inward men who experience the enmity (jihad) that God decreed in Genesis 3:15.”
The incontinence David experiences when he poops his pants is unfortunate and inconvenient for him. But when David shares his “godly revelation” with others, it is the verbal equivalent of giving them poop to eat, should they receive it as the valuable thing he deems it to be. But to those who can see, hear, and smell, it is highly offensive and a very shameful thing to display as godly.
Tom Blackaby can’t handle what we have said about him, his father, and their religion that God hates, so he commiserates with another false Christian whom we have exposed, David Thompson, who returns the favor as both condemn us and the Word of God spoken to them. David fortunately included us in his reply, affording us this excellent opportunity to further expose the prince of this world and his nefarious ways.
We answer a universalist that challenges us to debate. He says we are too harsh and judgmental of others. We show that he is the one judging by sight, unrighteously.
A universalist struggles with hearing the truth that not all people are children of God.
Gary Sigler, the author of the article addressed in “The Deadly Error of the Universalists,” replies and we answer him regarding the difference between presumption of grace, and true grace demonstrated by works of faith. One is anti-Christ, while the other is Christ.