Victor wrote the following note to a man who unsubscribed from The Issues of Life:
Sorry to see you bow out of The Issues of Life. However, for some time I have wanted to send you this information. Don’t get upset with me now. This is not about “Mormon bashing” or anything ill intended. I think you should know that, and I hope you are one who would examine the evidence objectively, though I have found that only by the grace of God can anyone be objective in these matters. See the following website:
Good morning Victor.
Yes I have seen and read most of the efforts of the anti’s. There was a couple of new ones I did get a chuckle out of though.
I started to make a list of points I could refute but the list became so long and I know you can’t argue with a lawyer. Well maybe Christ could but I am left lacking. They are very good at twisting and taking things out of context.
Of all the plagiarism nonsense I must add “Not bad for a 14 year old unlearned backwoods kid eh?”
– Scholars forced to retreat? As contention is not of the Lord but the other side (something I wish you would consider) it would be very hard to find a true scholar that would contend these points. Of your anti hero’s – they are much to smart to contend with a real scholar because they know they would be ground to dust. If they can find someone with a fair bit of knowledge and use their lawyer tactics on that one – then they can tie him up and make some new headlines for themselves.
– So many of your points were taken out of context that it all becomes meaningless.
– Yes the three witnesses did apostatize BUT your hero’s fail to say that they never denied seeing and hefting the plates or denied their testimony of them.
– Final nail in the coffin of Mormonism. Good grief Victor – how many final nails do we need?
Enough already. Victor I was going to tell you that I couldn’t figure out which you were most like – the Pharisees or the biblical lawyers. Now I see it is the lawyers that you take after. That must be a bit of a slam to you but I have seen so many of your arguments where you make an assumption (some of which I knew to be wrong) and then take off on that to build your case against. Always against. Do you think on judgment day Christ will say “Well done my good and faithful servant – You have driven many of my precious little ones away”?
Victor – let’s be good neighbors but agree to disagree on this thing.
And may I ask you to search your own soul. Are you not getting a certain thrill or exhilaration from you always being able to find a way to be right and proving others wrong and showing to the public how smart you are? I feel that a lot of the stuff you spout comes from that fellow you are so attached to. You have a wonderful wife and probably some family that you may be affecting on an eternal basis. Make sure the master deceiver is not deceiving you. It’s like pornography – there is no end and you could spend your life criticizing and belittling and die no further ahead. Some of Mormonism’s greatest detractors spent their life detracting and died with a life of no value while the church continues to grow and help people become better people loving and cherishing their relationship with God and enjoying many blessings from him.
One last thing – There is one Jesus Christ and we all worship the same one.
Over and out.
Victor’s first and brief response:
I am not surprised at your reaction, not at all. I would like to reply to your letter later, Lord willing. (A tidbit for now is that I have no “heros.”) An interesting, and I would say, remarkable coincidence occurred here tonight. While I get as many as 10 to 75 letters a day on spiritual matters, your letter and this letter from Paul came in simultaneously (within 10 minutes of each other), with the same subject, which, believe it or not, is not often discussed, relative to all the many topics we cover. Frankly, I do not recall the last time I got a letter from Paul on Mormonism. Here it is:
I will go through your letter bit by bit. I will be direct.
You chuckle, but at yourself. If you can read that information and walk away chuckling, you are a blind fool, one who cannot reason or have any godly capacity to understand. Nothing new for religious people who can believe the greatest of lies, simply because they have been told, often trained in them from their youth. But to believe the truth? That takes the grace of God, and His grace alone will suffice. I know; I was there where you are, and have been delivered, though you will chuckle at that as well.
“Well maybe Christ could,” you say? Is there a maybe about it? He is the Creator, Who can do more than argue. Your loose language betrays you, Andrew.
I note that you were not able to declare, with substance, that all the things said in that site were false. You were not able to give any credit there, as though there was none due. Your bias does you no justice.
Does it much matter whether one is a scholar or “a fourteen year-old unlearned backwoods kid”? Henry Ford completed grade six, and many have had poor education though they were able to employ others to do things for them. Of course, I am not consenting that Smith was all that uneducated. Yet all the more occasion or motivation to plagiarize if he was. The plagiarism cannot be disputed except by willingly ignorant persons who have an agenda. There can be no doubt, by all the testimonies and documents (try reading Abanes’ One Nation Under Gods, which is packed with testimonies, historical data and documents) that Smith was a schemer, liar, whoremonger and thief, an adulterer and murderer, and you, in all your wilful ignorance, calloused irresponsibility, and self service, honor and follow him. How good is that for your wife and family? Do you do them justice? I think not. Will the Lord say to you (using your approach), after it is all done in this life, “Well done My good and faithful servant – You have partaken of murderers and thieves, devoting your energies and finances to Satan, in My Name”?
Is contention only from the dark side? If we contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, is that from the dark side simply because we contend? Contention for the truth, which is urged in Scripture by a brother of the Lord, Jude, is from the other side for you, is it not? But for you, it is all about form, because you have no substance. Satan is the counterfeiter, a liar, and was one from the beginning. “Act nice, speak nice, be nice, not that you have anything of truth or goodness. The copy will do.” That is the MO of all religious people who worship religion, form, and worship itself, in the Name of God.
You assume I have heroes, Andrew, or you are simply cynical. I have no heroes, nor should I consider myself a hero. I do consider myself formerly a fool, a corrupt creature deserving nothing good, but shown grace, mercy, and favor of God; one who had nothing, thinking he had something, but now has everything, though to the unregenerate appearing to have nothing. These are things you have never experienced. You remain quite full of yourself.
I could have erred by referring you to a site and to persons with whom I really have nothing to do. I do not say that I would agree with them in everything. I did see, however, that Quillen, for example, had considerable data there that would cause any reasonable, unbiased person to consider carefully. Obviously, you are not such a person. I was simply pointing to facts, wherein you are proven wrong by Scripture, something you have no use for, except to defend your diabolical doctrines and practices.
“So many of your points,” you say? Unless you refer to The Issues of Life, I made no points. Quillen and others made them.
The apostatized witnesses could have done or not done things that you do not know of. Are you aware of everything they said or did, and do you believe liars? What kind of proof or argument is that? I do not depend on any of these things for myself, though much of the information is hard to deny. I depend on the Lord and the Scriptures for my guidance, and your religious organization, from inception, is, in terms of harmony and fidelity with God, as phony as a three-dollar bill, and I can prove it, without much effort. Read The True Marks of a Cult. If you can honestly tell me that the Mormon Church is not a device of men, contrary to God, then there is no reasoning with you on anything spiritual whatsoever, Andrew. Of course, that paper indicts not only Mormons, but also multitudes of others. Nor is it mere opinion. It is backed up amply by Scripture and by the testimony given by the lives of many saints (not Mormons, but true believers) and Jesus Christ Himself. Do you have the stomach for the truth? If so, read it; I challenge you.
“Final nail in the coffin of Mormonism”? I did not see that quote. However, I would not use it. Would one burn ashes? The Mormon Church is a congregation of the dead. Who needs coffins and nails supplied after the fact? It grows and prospers, as you say. So have done the Catholic Church, the SDAs, the JWs, Buddhists, Moonies, Muslims, and so many others. Does growth and prosperity in this world prove anything? If so, you need to go to the Pope on bended knee, in all humility. Yet you say that your church is the only true church, and that all others are infidels, all going to hell unless we repent and become Mormons. You contradict yourself. You need no coffins or nails. You are in hell, even now, prizing the things of this world. The Mormon Church lays up treasures on earth, per capita, as does no other religious organization on earth. Some of its adherents or members pollute the earth more than most, destroying as they go, like Huntsman, for example. And you people are the “latter day saints”? Wow! When God sends strong delusion to those who love the lie, not having a love of the truth, He does a “bang up job,” does He not? And who can reverse or oppose it? So why do I try? So that you are without excuse. So that the light is glorified in darkness. So that the seeds of truth will be sown for the future. I am doing more to redeem present and past generations by speaking the truth than you are by foolishly dunking people in water.
While getting personal in the rest of your letter, you have no substance to back it up. You say I would build cases on false assumptions or premises you “knew to be wrong.” By what standard do you judge? According to your opinion and your Mormon perspective? I would gladly hear what you think are erroneous assumptions, and if you can show me, with substance, with Scripture, with wisdom of God that I am wrong, I will gladly recant, publicly so, without hesitation. Tell me where I am wrong. Jesus told others where they were wrong, whether they were His disciples or whether they were His opponents. If you presume to be His follower, then speak up. So far, you scoff, you criticize, you refute, and condemn, but all without substance.
It is not about me, Andrew, I know it, and am glad to have it so. That way, I am free to speak the truth. You ask, “Do you think on judgment day Christ will say “Well done my good and faithful servant – You have driven many of my precious little ones away”?” The answer is “No.” The fact is (which you cannot believe) He has given me directive to speak, according to that which Jude testified and which Enoch prophesied would happen:
“And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints, to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him. These are murmurers, complainers, leading lives according to their lusts. And their mouth speaks proud things, admiring faces for the sake of gain” (Jude 1:14-16).
I agree that we disagree, but not to be content with it. Why should I side with you against our Redeemer? Or why should I be silent while you promote lies in His Name?
You ask me to search my soul! You have no idea! I have done so, and God has revealed to me that which I could not perceive about myself. Read Our Testimonies! You have not done so, have you?
Do I get thrills from these correspondences? You bet I do, but not because of what you evilly surmise. I am thrilled to be identified with the Lord Jesus Christ here on earth, as a true saint, a true disciple, washed in His blood, and sanctified for His service and purposes. I am “delighted to do His will”! “My meat is to do the will of the Father.” I have something of which you have no idea! As it is recorded:
“No weapon that is formed against you shall be blessed; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment, you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from Me, says Jehovah” (Isaiah 54:17).
Again, it has nothing to do with “how smart I am.” I am not smart at all, but God has given me the tongue of the learned, with which to serve Him. He has put a sword in my mouth and has given me the skill to use it. I have and am nothing without Him. But you do not believe, Andrew.
You write: “I feel that a lot of the stuff you spout comes from that fellow you are so attached to.“
That is exactly where the “stuff I spout” comes from. That Fellow laid His life down for you, and took it up again, but you despise Him, and serve “another Jesus,” not the “Fellow” we serve; I guarantee it, having staked our lives on it to the grave, coming out the other side, knowing whereof we speak. I suspect you speak of Paul Cohen. I speak of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my Source. And Paul and I are together in Christ. Repent, Andrew. It will not do for you to fight the Lord as you do. You say, “Make sure the master deceiver is not deceiving you.” Jesus Christ, our Savior and Lord, has made sure of that. You are not deceiving me, are you? Neither Mormons nor Catholics, nor any other cult or false prophet like Joseph Smith deceives me, though I was once deceived, like I said. Now I am in the light, judging all things, and it is a glorious place to be. Darkness has no place here.
You speak of the fruitless endeavours of Mormon detractors. Firstly, you have no idea that they were fruitless. Secondly, if they were so, it was because they spoke out of bitterness, and out of their own strength and knowledge. It is not so with us. We know in Whom we have believed; we do not criticize to feed our passions; we do not speak in bitterness. We speak the truth to all, not just Mormons, because God is with and in us to do so. If our lives were to end here and now, we consider it well worth it. While detractors (if they are indeed detractors) speak out of death, we speak out of life. That is the difference. With that difference, we have nothing whatsoever to fear, but we do have great cause to rejoice. One day you too will rejoice with us, though now you perish, offended with, and resenting, our words to you, words that are true, and which, if believed, would bring you life.
I have no choice but to be a good neighbor to you, Andrew, and so I am. The best way I know of to be so is to speak the truth to you, not withholding. I am thankful I have had the opportunity to do so. Believe it or not, one day you too will be thankful, you and your wife both, and so will many others. We receive no thanks for it now (your heart will now tell you so) but it does not matter. It does not even matter if we never receive thanks. We are not doing it for thanks. We are altogether unworthy and unprofitable servants, doing the Master’s will, for which we are greatly thankful to be granted the privilege to do so. That is all that matters to me and to Paul. That is a very good place to be.
Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints,
Editor’s note: Since having this correspondence with Andrew, we discovered more about the different Jesus Christ Mormons worship. Here is the difference:
As recorded in Richard Abanes’ book, “One Nation Under Gods” (Four Walls Eight Windows), Mormons teach that Jesus was a god, the firstborn spirit son of Heavenly Father, a polygamous deity. They also teach that Jesus is the spirit-brother of Lucifer, and that He is only one of many created gods.
We know and teach that Jesus Christ is God, the Creator and Lord of all things. The notion of polygamy regarding God and the Lord Jesus Christ is nowhere to be so much as thought or mentioned. What a difference right there!
Mormons teach that Jesus was conceived on earth through sexual intercourse between “Heavenly Father” and Mary (who was a virgin until having those relations with “Heavenly Father”).
We know and teach that the Spirit of God overshadowing Mary, a virgin, conceived Jesus Christ and Jesus was born of a virgin, and not as one who lost her virginity to God, as the Mormons teach. What a difference there!
Mormons believe that salvation can be achieved by good works, and only if enough good works are performed. With such doctrine, they clearly preach “another Jesus,” one who apparently does not think men need a savior, seeing men can save themselves.
We know and teach that all men need a savior simply because they cannot achieve favor and harmony with God through good works. Jesus Christ is that Savior. Those who presume to enter fellowship with God through their “good” works reject the Lord Jesus Christ and count His sacrifice unnecessary. What a difference there!
Mormons teach that God and Jesus Christ were once mere men like ourselves and developed to Their present status (whatever Mormons say that is).
We teach that God is God, that Jesus Christ is God, that He was ever the Lord God, and always will be, He being Creator, and we being His creatures.
Mormons teach that while on earth in the flesh, Jesus was a polygamist, that is, He was married, with several wives.
We teach that Jesus was single and chaste, as the Bible records. He alone laid down His life for the sins of mankind. He did not join Himself to another and become “one flesh” to do so, much less to several.
Mormons teach that Jesus Christ is one of three gods overseeing planet earth.
Again, we teach that He is the One and Only God, having manifested Himself in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and in whatever ways as pleases Him.
Mormons teach, particularly by a doctrine called “blood atonement,” originating with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, that the blood of Jesus Christ is not able to cleanse some people of all their sins. They have taught that some must literally be slaughtered, or voluntarily yield themselves up to be literally slain by their elders to atone for their own sins, particularly when they have been found to oppose or speak against the Mormon church or its leaders. How antiChrist in its doctrine and practice can this organization get?
We teach that the blood of Jesus Christ is efficacious for all men and all sin, and that Jesus Christ has defeated death itself, the consequence of sin. He is fully Lord and Savior of all men, including Mormons and all adversaries.
Mormons teach that Jesus atoned only for Adam’s transgression by sweating blood in Gethsemane.
We teach that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world by His sacrifice on a Roman cross. Gethsemane was not enough. Not only was He surrendered in will, but also in body and Person, to the bitter end. He also arose from the dead, victorious over death and Satan, without which resurrection, the cross would be of no value concerning mankind’s salvation.
Mormons do not believe that faith in Jesus Christ is sufficient. They teach that unless one believes that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, there is no salvation to be had.
We know by personal experience, and teach aided by the Holy Scriptures, that faith in Jesus Christ alone is not only sufficient, but absolutely necessary that it is in Him alone to effect salvation. “You shall have no other gods before Me.” To be sure, believing in manifest and historically documented and proven liars and charlatans is not at all necessary.
Bruce McConkie, LDS apostle, declared in a speech in 1982, at BYU, that having a special relationship with, and praying to, Jesus Christ is “plain, sectarian nonsense.”
We, on the other hand, know the Lord Jesus Christ, and have sweet fellowship with Him. We hear His voice and He hears us. He answers us as we pray to Him. He continues to be our Lord and Savior, though He has granted us, and all those that are His, the unspeakable privilege and reality of being called His brethren. Jesus Christ dwells in us, and we are one with Him. We thank and praise Him for that!
We also know that the lies that Mormons teach and practice will be swept away by the truth we speak. It is on record that Mormons are liars. Their apostles and elders believe they are justified in lying if it promotes and protects their church. Can anyone imagine Jesus Christ lying or having to lie to protect His Body? Can anyone believe that Jesus Christ would encourage His disciples to lie to protect themselves and their secret doctrines? Are Christ’s doctrines secret? Does He tell His disciples one thing and the world another? While He may withhold something for a time, He does not lie. Can anyone believe that He would have to resort to the ways of the one He came to defeat, whose works of lies He came to destroy? What contradiction! Of course, some can and will and do believe such lies, such as Mormons. How so? Because they serve the prince of this world, the murderer and father of lies, and are deceived.
Andrew ends his letter with a dismissing, arrogant sweep of his hand, saying, “One last thing – There is one Jesus Christ and we all worship the same one. Over and out.”
Andrew, are you truly aware of your church’s doctrines? It is clear that there is indeed only One, True Jesus Christ, Who is Lord of all. However, it is also abundantly clear that there are many imposters, “other Jesuses,” as the apostle Paul declares, as does the Lord Jesus Himself (Matt. 24:24). It is altogether evident that you and I do not worship the same Jesus. Your church would have you believe that, because they seek to obscure any conflicts with the Biblical record and authentic testimony of Christ that they might establish their own authority outside of both. And on both counts we, His true saints, make manifest in His light that such is fraud, the grandest of larcenies, stealing the souls of men, but not forever, anymore than darkness can resist Light.
“If any man have ears to hear, let him hear” (Mark 7:16).