“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is she that watches, and keeps her garments, lest she walk naked, and they see her shame” (Revelation 16:15 KJV).
We began our correspondence with Deborah of Discerning the World after she received our correspondence with Mike Ratliff and several on his blog. She asked for more background, and I gave her the writing that started things off at Carla Rolfe’s blog.
…Anyhow I have read the articles you wrote (I am guessing you wrote them) on John Calvin and I must say I had no idea that he did that – murdering that guy for disagreeing with his doctrine – shocking. To be honest I don’t even know much about him…but since your article I am going to research more on his doctrine. truth + lies does not = truth….
After reading from Lisa Nunley’s blog, Deborah wrote:
You know what, I need to apologise. I re-read a lot of the stuff written between lisa 1 and lisa 2 and Ingrid on Carla’s blog (I did not read it all the last time only got half way through). And only now do I understand why you guys got so angry. So just to make sure I understand what’s going on here is a summary:
A lady by the name of Lisa Numley emails Ingrid a not so nice email. Ingrid googles Lisa’s name and comes across her blog. But it’s the wrong Lisa. So now there are 2 Lisa’s a ‘good’ one and a ‘bad’ one (if we can call it that). As it turns out the bad Lisa has also been imposering the good Lisa’s name on Carla’s blog in which this bad Lisa had a lot of not so nice things to say about Victor. When the good Lisa realised she was being impostered she kinda of just shrugged it of even though an immense amount of damage was done to Victor’s and yourself’s name on Carla’s blog. But the good Lisa and the bad Lisa are actually the same person. (Btw, the first time I read the emails from the bad Lisa and then the good Lisa I realised they were the same person – it was very obvious to me and I didn’t even know the story line and how it would turn out.)
Now the thing I don’t understand: Why did you guys send Carla that The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin email with the following words:
“We picked you special, because you follow John Calvin and he was a demon, wake up you moron! We’re really smart and we’ve been told by God Himself that Calvin was evil, and He put us in charge of putting an end to his evil teachings. You’re ignorant, and you can’t see that following a murderer is going to turn you into one, and since you already follow him, it’s really important that you wake up now! Hurry, read our webpage and you’ll be enlightened like we are, and will no longer follow evil murderers. Love always, communal carrot people.”
I find it really hard to believe you would send an email to someone with that wording above. So one of 2 things happend here: Either you did send that email, or it was sent by someone else to mock you. If you did say that then I will be a bit shocked.
So Lisa emails Mike and tells them that you guys are giving her grief, then you email Mike and give him a piece of your mind – hence the comments on his blog.
And now it’s evolved into a war of words – and I am wondering if Mike even knows the whole story or cares to know the whole story.
Paul clarifies who said what:
Here is what Carla received from us:
“The following paper will be of interest and pertinence to you for possibly several reasons among many. It has been our great honor to discern and identify the error and spirit of John Calvin, whose rule is yet propagated in the hearts of men with evil consequences for all. The Lord Jesus Christ has visited us with the Light of His countenance to put an end to this evil, justifying His servants whom Calvin murdered, and His Name in the sight of all. Show me whom you follow, and I will know what manner of person you are or will become. If you do not know whom you are following, don’t you think it is time to find out how and where you are being led? Do you think you will altogether escape the consequences because ignorant? Think again. You already suffer them. John Calvin was one of the most vicious of wolves ever to pose as a lamb of God. His supremely self-righteous spirit lives on in those who lionize and follow him, even unbeknownst to themselves. Truly, ‘that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.’”
She said this on her blog:
“So loosely translated, here’s what that email actually said:
‘We picked you special, because you follow John Calvin and he was a demon, wake up you moron! We’re really smart and we’ve been told by God Himself that Calvin was evil, and He put us in charge of putting an end to his evil teachings. You’re ignorant, and you can’t see that following a murderer is going to turn you into one, and since you already follow him, it’s really important that you wake up now! Hurry, read our webpage and you’ll be enlightened like we are, and will no longer follow evil murderers. Love always, communal carrot people.’”
The words you quoted to me are Carla’s evil interpretation of what we wrote.
Also, we are not angry as you might think, taking things personally. We are dealing with the attitudes and spirits of these people, which are vile. In describing and speaking to these things it necessarily does not sound pretty. Consider how Jesus had to deal with such in the days of His flesh. It is no different for those in Him today, and things are even worse, as Paul the apostle prophesied they would be (2 Timothy 3:13).
Deborah’s reply, as the picture gets clearer:
Ahhhh ok, got it. I apologise, please forgive me for jumping to conclusions without having read the entire posting. I now completely understand.
Yes indeed these people have an anti-Christ spirit working through them and they lie and stand up for people who are liers. It’s terrible.
So Carla had no reason to write those words and made it out to be that you had written them in your email to her. Unbelievable. And she calls herself a…what? Christian. Anyhow I see what’s going here and it’s a bit shocking to say the least.
I’ve been reading quite a bit of your blog and I am impressed with what I have read so far.
Confirmations and clarifications from Paul:
You are right in spirit about the scenario you depicted with Lisa Nunley, though some details in the situation you describe are incorrect. For example, Ingrid knew about Lisa because we shared our correspondence on Carla’s blog with Ingrid and others, which was happening at the same time of Lisa’s letter to Ingrid. Obviously an email coming from a Lisa Nunley, speaking in terms recognizable from the blog conversation Ingrid had already seen with Lisa, would be assumed to be the same person. When Ingrid wrote back with what she saw on Lisa’s blog, that is when Lisa backed out and said she was a different Lisa Nunley altogether. Clear as mud? The tangled webs liars leave others to explain!
Lisa was purposely vague and evasive in answering (or not answering) our questions. In this manner she was able to adapt her story to whatever contingencies came up. Later on, the story she told Dan had evolved from someone using her identity to that person actually using her computer. Tracing an IP address would, therefore, tell us nothing we didn’t already know, because it would only show the same computer was used for all Nunley generated email.
I cannot say that Carla deliberately set out to make it appear we wrote those sarcastic words that she put in our mouths, because she did present them as her paraphrase, but her behavior and attitude are no different than if she had. It is certainly very contemptuous for one professing Christ, Who is above reproach.
As for Mike, he asked why we were sending him “this garbage,” when it was his open, declared position that we were false prophets. We were taking him to task for forming opinions that were contradicted by the evidence, while puffing himself up as a minister of Christ with knowledge and wisdom. His reaction, like Lisa’s, was to deny, obfuscate, and avoid any responsibility whatsoever for what he said or for supporting those in wickedness. He amply demonstrated he couldn’t care less about the facts. How wicked!
That Mike called us “false” does not bother us in the least. But when he takes the Lord’s Name in vain in the manner described, as have these other liars, bringing open shame to Christ by association, we are bothered and must speak. We are so thankful that we can and do. Heaven rejoices.
Deborah contacts Mike and sees where he is at:
Just by the by, I emailed Mike and asked him if he really knew what Lisa did? And I subsequently told him my thoughts. He came back to me saying that he agreed and at the time only took Lisa’s word for what had happened – not having read everything in it’s entirity – he too jumped to conclusions. He is very upset with Lisa. He was deceived by Lisa just as everyone else STILL is. He ended up being a ‘pawn’ in Lisa’s nasty game and the consequences of his words and actions will surely haunt him. I have left the FINAL decision as to what he needs to do to rectify this problem in his hands – he can continue to ignore it or fix it. Only time will tell if he truly stands for truth or not. Mike can end this just as easily as it started by rebuking Lisa for her wicked ways, but will he do that? I can only pray he does.
I will continue to watch how this situation unfolds and only mediate when necessary. I have a feeling that it’s not going to end any time soon, because Mike is not going to do anything to fix the problem. I don’t consider myself part of this ‘arguement’ but I do feel that ‘someone’ has to stand up for the truth and look at things from an outsider’s perspective – maybe there was a reason you sent me that email, you never know, God does work in strange ways sometimes 🙂 or maybe it was just so that we can have a good chat!!
Paul shares Sherry’s open letter to Mike, which Mike did not post:
Dear Mike and all,
I have read through, How to Detect a False Prophet, Count it All Joy, and Sola Scriptura – and I have read from the other sites that are associated with this spiritual warfare between this site, and Victor and Paul from The Path of Truth.
As I am reading through Mike’s words and all the comments from the ‘postees’ here – I cannot help but detect such arrogance from all.
Everyone thinks they are right – even have the scripture to back it up. Some use put downs, sarcasm (of course followed by, “We should be praying for them”)…self-righteous hypocrites!
In one sentence someone is criticizing Victor for being too harsh and self righteous – and then turn and call him names and proclaim their thoughts. Amazing.
Quite honestly, if Victor accepted Calvin, taught that there is indeed a hell – – his comments would not be considered harsh.
If you think that you are not blind to that – – well you are deceived.
All the comments to Victor stating he is puffed up and deceived – – how can you truly not apply that to yourself?
Mike, you stated, “Well what do you think? This ‘person’ said all of that, insulted me and my friends with no knowledge of us at all.”
Mike, you made this about you. That statement is the giveaway. It is not about you, right? I know with that comment you are trying to expose Victor’s evil deeds, but in reality what happened was the exposure of yours. Pride.
If Victor had said these things about Warren, Bell, Osteen, etc…the comments would be more of praise to Victor. Somehow the fact that Victor disagrees on the outcome after death, to burn or not to burn, would have been overlooked – just like Mike overlooks his doctrine disagreements with Rick.
You say Victor’s tone is not good….but how can anyone here condone their tone? Again, self-righteous hypocrites.
A lot of what Victor said he did use scripture to back him up – but yet the comments indicate he didn’t. He did – you just didn’t like the way he used them.
The comments indicate an aggravation to the idea that Victor is god-like in his thoughts of himself. Have you read all of your replies? Honestly, how can you not see that you do the same? Fools!
I do not see Victor’s claim in announcing he is God as the comments suggests, but rather, being one with Christ – in thoughts and action. Is this not what Christianity is? If you are truly a Believer and cannot claim to be one with Christ – well then you really are not a Believer. Such a twist and play on words.
The claims are that Victor is too harsh, lacks compassion. The words he used, carnal, stupid, and full of all contradiction, teaching lies, hypocrite, and more, – – these same words have been used here against others who do not line up with Calvin’s thoughts – of course you justify them in the name of Christ.
The claim is also that Victor said to this Lisa woman that her illness is there because she is not a true believer (something like that) – I didn’t see that Victor was stating that Lisa was an unbeliever because of her illness, but rather, for the charade of lies that they caught her in. And we all can agree that sin can make you ill – can it not? No, being ill does not necessarily reflect ones salvation, but at the same time, at times, it can be the fruit of your evil deeds.
Now I do not know this Lisa person (do you?), but based on what I see, everyone here presumes the innocence of Lisa strictly for the fact that she goes to Mike for help and reads this blog. Now that is foolish. Again I say, if these accusations were against someone that was not liked or accepted here, the support would have been given to Victor. Thinking that somehow we can pick and choose what ‘fruit’ to bite based on our ‘thoughts and feelings’…well, that seems to be setting oneself up as godlike.
I am not here to side with Victor or Mike – but Christ. And I leave with this warning – and this is out of love, though may come across as arrogance and without compassion – – we should heed to Scripture when it teaches that we need to examine ourselves – look in the mirror – all here have set themselves up as godlike in the name of “right”, though packaged in the name of Jesus.
We need to stop defending man and start living for Christ!
Deborah admires Sherry:
Wow, Sherry is a clever lady!! If only there were more like here.
What Mike told Sherry and what followed:
Good morning Sherry,
I got this comment on my blog. In this battle with Victor and Paul we have found that they often send fake comments and emails pretending to be friends trying to get us to attack one another. This post looks suspicious to me. Victor and Paul are heretics not Christians.
Sherry wrote back:
I just wanted to acknowledge that I did post that comment.
Mike you stated; “…In this battle with Victor and Paul we have found that they often send fake comments and emails pretending to be friends trying to get us to attack one another.”
Who’s email/comments have they faked?
Mike wrote back:
There have been several that I am investigating. I was contacted by a person who asked about Lisa and our relationship. I told her the truth, that I did not know what had started all of this, but I did see where these people were attacking her because she has MS. That was why I got involved. I also stated that I thought it was unwise for her to get involved in talking with them. Then I find out that it was actually these people pretending to be that person because they have the very words I used in that email. These people are wicked and vile and use tactics that reveal this.
They are heretics. Did you read the ‘prophecy’ that Victor spoke against all of us? Is that from God? I think not. I refuse to respond to these people in any way nor will I do any more than warn others about them.
Paul: As you see, Mike is claiming that we wrote that portion of the letter I quoted from you, Deborah, about your email correspondence with him and his confession of knowing Lisa bamboozled him. The man, being caught in his lies, simply cannot stop making up more!
Notice that he has no other “proof” of his lies about us posing as other people. Did he not admit to you, Deborah, that what he is accusing us of is exactly what Lisa was doing, posing as another person? He is not even denying that is true about Lisa, only that he claims we gained this confession from him by subterfuge! He thinks that if he pegs us as liars you will not notice he is one!
We have nothing to prove, being innocent before God, but this is an opportunity to remind you that this is a deadly serious business, no different than what the children of Israel, who were given to believers as examples to learn from, experienced:
“And he spoke to the congregation, saying, I pray you, get away from the tents of these wicked men. And touch nothing of theirs lest you be destroyed in all their sins” (Numbers 16:26 MKJV).
This is not an exercise in religious gamesmanship, as some will find out to their hurt.
Victor’s words regarding Mike’s last reply:
Evidence asked for; not received. He claims he wishes to warn others of us, yet, strangely enough, will not produce evidence. Are people to simply take Mike’s word for it because Mike said so?
We were not attacking. Let Sherry check the full record and decide for herself if Lisa was attacked, and let her directly, boldly ask for evidence to demonstrate: 1) that we were attacking her; 2) that we did so because of her illness; 3) that we are heretics; 4) that there was a prophecy (maybe in fact there was, without even our knowing it – devils know too); 5) if a prophecy, what makes a prophecy false; and 6) that there was anything specific that one can point to that was wrong in “the prophecy.”
As for using others’ words and pretense, again, let him produce the evidence. We did no such thing.
Paul: Also, we know that prophecy, being the testimony of Jesus, is the true nature of those things we speak to others when addressing them. We have what we have from Him, in Him. You have not seen or understood these things, Deborah, not operating in the realm of the Spirit. If evil spirits are at work in this world (and what are we dealing with here if not such spirits?), how much more is the Spirit of God actively manifesting Himself in His children, those He sends to minister and to do battle with the beasts?
“You are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world” (1 John 4:4 KJV).
Deborah is exasperated:
Oh goodness gracious. Why wont he just admit that Lisa lied. By covering up for her he is condoning that what she did is ok. This is just so wrong.
Mike won’t admit that Lisa lied because he is a liar, a member of the synagogue of Satan. We have told you these things, but you do not believe us.
What is more important than Mike admitting to the lies is how you deal and have dealt with this matter. As it stands, Mike is telling Sherry that we made you up or engaged you to trap him. The question is why you have an aversion to confronting these matters head on. You are looking to be accepted by men, not God. It is more important that you keep your standing in the blog world of “Christians” than to publicly, unashamedly identify with Christ, the Truth.
I saw this on Mike’s blog [here is the evidence of Deborah’s betrayal of the Truth, Jesus Christ]:
Deborah, on April 29th, 2008 at 9:34 am said:
I know this might sound REALLY WEIRD but I received an email today from Paul Cohen with regards to this thread. I think he has mistaken me for the lady ‘Deborah’ who posted on this site. I don’t even know how he got my email address.
Anyhow, I emailed him asking him what’s going on and that he has confused me with someone else. Which is funny though, cos I have a blog called Discerning the World so everything in this thread is right up my alley – but still it’s not my ‘argument’ and now I am on someone’s mailing list…*sighs*
Anyhow, if you are on the same mailing list and see the email address dtwblog at gmail dot com please just remove me when you forward or reply.
Thanks a million!
Mike Ratliff, on April 29th, 2008 at 9:44 am said:
Will do Deborah. Sorry you got caught up in this.
Deborah, on April 29th, 2008 at 7:19 pm said [the Deborah who posted on this site]:
That was probably meant for me. I’m sure it was a real blessing. 🙂 Sorry
Deborah, on May 6th, 2008 at 2:33 pm said:
ehehe, no worries 😉
Paul: If you cannot see what is going on here, Deborah, let me explain it for your sake. You are entertaining and winking at devils rather than soberly speaking the truth to these people. It is not your job to rebuke them, but neither is it for you, if you are a believer, to support them by omission of truth and inane remarks which appear to give tacit approval of their wicked attitudes, while they stand in front of you wiping the blood from their mouths, saying they have done nothing wrong. Are you not agreeing with Deborah’s sarcasm that says there is nothing good in our letters? Sure you are. Can’t you tell?
By engaging them as though you are one of them, you strengthen them in their wickedness.
Are you indeed one of them? Better to be entirely cold, like they are, than lukewarm. You possibly have something to lose, whereas they have nothing. You seem to be seeing some things here, which indicates you have received Light. For that you are held responsible. You will lose even what you seem to have, the Lord says, if you seek to keep your life.
Do you really believe the Lord approves of your behavior? We assure you, Deborah, that He does not. Do you not believe one can know and see these things? Surely the Lord would have us to be wise as serpents while harmless as doves. Right now you are turning a blind eye to serpents, causing damage to yourself and others by letting them do their thing in total darkness. You are denying the Light. That’s what is happening here.
Deborah is miffed:
Please look at the DATE of that post. I said this BEFORE I received your reply to my email about having ‘sent your email to the wrong Deborah’. I had not even read the diaglogue (I only skimmed through it) so I had no idea what was going on. You jump to conclusions faster than a bolt of lightening which is quite frightening. No where did I say I agree with them? Did I? No where did I say that what they did was all right? Did I? All I said was, I received the email in error, please remove me from the mailing list. I find it astounding how because of this you throw me in their camp? Interesting.
Paul and Victor’s reply:
Deborah, yes, I did see the date of the post I was referring to (ehehe, no worries 😉 ) – May 6, which is well after our initial correspondence.
I can see perfectly fine, technicalities and all, both acts and spirits, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ. It is you who cannot see and who sins with your feet, hasting to shed blood in your rush to judgment. Read my letter again, and all the correspondence if necessary, and then tell me that this is not so. Even if we err on the technicalities, as you surmise (which we do not), would it not be much wiser to overlook those and embrace the substantial, spiritual issue here?
Perhaps you did not understand what you were agreeing with when you told Deborah there were “no worries.” I was willing to give you the benefit of a doubt. But all the same you are consorting with darkness. Would you rather not be told? Have it your way; but know that it will not go well for you on your chosen path.
I see Sherry has written you, a potential victim of your casual lightness in a life and death matter. What will you do now? Were you lying to us about your letter to Mike and his reply? I can see no reason you would, but will you now produce the evidence of your claims for everyone to see? Are you willing to let servants of the Lord be publicly labeled as liars on account of your actions?
We do not need you to defend us or to answer on our behalf. But you, Deborah, certainly need to get real and honest with everyone, or you take the Name of Christ in vain. We assure you, as He warns, that you will not be held guiltless for this.
I am also giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a straight out liar, like Lisa and Mike. I don’t think that is the case; all the more reason you need to wake up to righteousness rather than remain sleeping with the dead.
Given your defensiveness and sarcastic, “smart alecky” approach in this, your last note, exposing a wicked heart, what we do here will likely appear as nitpicking to you. While the externals may seem tedious and inconsequential to the carnal man, the Lord is directing and enabling us to deal with the heart, which is all He cares about. He makes known the secrets of the heart. Whether the works are great or small in man’s eyes is of no concern to Him. He knows what is important and what is not. He has given us to know as He judges and so we speak.
Your sarcasm and lightness expose you. We will drop this soon enough. You don’t know how much we would like to do so, but our duty to Him is our duty, and, when done, you, Sherry, and everyone else involved will be completely without excuse. You are so even now.
You have had troubles and have not understood why. You have not seen your culpability in it all. He has sent us to help you, but, obviously, you think to know better (which is a great part and the crux of your problem), notwithstanding our witness in Christ and evident facts.
Being informed and warned, yet still remaining in your testy, frivolous, irreverent attitude will then bring swift and righteous judgment. This is not a wish or a threat (we ever hope to see sobriety, sincerity and decisive repentance to piety). It is, rather, a warning and solemn assertion, for your sake and those to whom we write or speak, that He is in charge here, not we.
Paul and Victor
Deborah cares only to save her skin:
Paul, the other Deborah lady said, ‘Deborah, That was probably meant for me. I’m sure it was a real blessing. Sorry” and I said, ‘hehehe no worries’ in otherwords – What? should I have blasted her because I got sent an email that should have been sent to her? So I said, “no worries” You really do take things completely out of context.
Paul, I have already replied to Sherry – I have quoted straight from Mike’s email. Having said that; if you post publically what HE SAID, I NOT BE HAPPY with you or Victor for that matter. For it is NOT for us to post publically what he said, but for MIKE to say IT publically. DO NOT post publically or email anyone what he said!!!!!
Deborah, you do not understand and, what is worse, do not care to understand. We are done with you.
As to publishing or posting what others have said, who are you to decide and dictate what God determines to be revealed or exposed for all to see and know? He said there is nothing hid that will not be made manifest. Do you think men will willingly expose themselves? Does He not come as a thief? He has come to you as a thief in this whole circumstance, and you do not like it one bit.
You are a phony, and we have been here to tell you so. Why? So that we can vaunt ourselves? Or so that you can have opportunity to repent of your self-righteousness and wickedness? You decide. Apparently you have decided what we have said or intended for you (and you are wrong) in all defensiveness, stubbornness and evil desire, so we do not hold our breaths that you will respond any differently to this rebuke.
“ Discerning the World”? You have failed to discern its substance and spirit in your own heart. Go your way, Deborah; do your thing. Lord willing, we are done with you.
It’s ok Victor, go ahead…do what you have to do. God is judging you RIGHT now.
Deborah proceeded to judge us by posting a response to our website in order to justify herself and salve her conscience regarding her wanton disregard for truth. I answer her critique of our teachings following Victor’s explanation about how Deborah went wrong, according to her testimony, and has never experienced anything of Christ.
Victor’s response to Deborah’s testimony [now removed from the internet]:
Herein is a classic example of a certain massive category of professing believers whose members think they are saved and have God’s favor. We will take what Deborah of “Discerning The World” blog considers to be her Christian testimony and clearly point out the telltale comments and details that prove she does not have a true Christian experience. She is deceived by Satan’s bride, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots. This indictment is also for those who can identify with Deborah in the points we make here.
First, let me make this clear, while this woman has been vile toward us, we do not write here with intention of revenge or “tit for tat.” We are here to speak the truth, to declare and to be the Testimony of Jesus Christ to the world. He is totally fed up with antics and deception that are killing all, and so are we, in Him. Is this woman to be stopped? As she goes, yes, but it is not her we fight:
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the world’s rulers, of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12 MKJV).
This is part and parcel of the war in the heavens. As the reader will see, Deborah has rebuked us and devils she has presumed to be with or in us. She blasphemes and does not know it. Satan blasphemes by her, but, Satan, we come against you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. You have no part in His Name, and neither does your vessel, Deborah. We sharply rebuke you, not with railings and earthly argument and fleshly strength, but with Truth, and you are finished. Let us start with her opening statement:
“My name is Deborah, I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into my life at the age of 9 but by the age of 14 something started to go horribly wrong in my personal life.”
There was no real conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ. If there were, she would not have expressed herself in the driver’s seat, saying, “I accepted.” She simply “got religion” in Jesus’ Name, as millions have. The fruits of her “first” conversion bear that out. When that which was more important to her was presented, she went for it. Jesus was not Lord, she did not make, or accept Him as Lord (nobody has done so, for flesh is neither willing nor capable). The truth of her state was soon made manifest. Read Diabolical Doctrine: “Accepting” Jesus Christ as Your Personal Saviour and The False and Misleading Gospel of “Accepting” Jesus Christ.
She writes: “My mother would ask me over and over again (like a broken record). ‘Who is Lord of your life, Deborah?’”
What her mother apparently did not know or Deborah did not understand is that Jesus Christ is Lord of everybody’s life, whether they believe or not. However, as most, Deborah has never known Jesus Christ as Lord. She may have confessed Him, she may have been a churchgoer, she may have been deeply involved in man-made “Christianity” as many are, but she did not know Jesus Christ as Lord. And if her mother had known Jesus as Lord, she would have told her this then and would tell her today. However, we have been made to know in no uncertain terms that Deborah rejects all authority in her life altogether. She is full of devils, and we will prove it. Let’s go on:
She confesses: “To make her feel better I would lie.”
Now into her twenties, she has no conscience about lying to her own mother, who professes faith in Christ, genuine or not. Yes, Deborah knew she was wrong. Unbelievers often know they are wrong, but do not necessarily do anything about it. As James puts it:
“You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:19-20 MKJV).
(It should be mentioned that there are many who live rather moral lives, with a remarkable degree of dutifulness to their moral consciences, though they have never professed faith in Jesus Christ. This woman had professed faith but was living a lie greater than that of many who plainly declare their unbelief.)
She writes: “But deep down something was not right. Deep down I knew that all these years I was wrong in rejecting Jesus.”
Is that supposed to be a piece of Christian testimony or a profound statement? Shall we say the sun has set if it is after midnight and it is perfectly dark? Of course, “deep down something was not right.” It never was, and it was not right anywhere else, deep down or on the surface.
I am not making these statements now to be cynical or sarcastic. My point is that if things were right presently for her, she would not be able to make that statement. It is relative. The only way she could say what she said is if things were not right with her now. If, in her present state, all she can say is “something” was not right, it indicates that what she has now is not much more, if any more, than what she had then, which was nothing.
Only those with a genuine salvation experience and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ will understand what I am saying. I do not and will not attribute Deborah’s expression to a lack of ability to communicate or to a poor choice of words. By her words, she manifests her heart.
She says, “I rebuked this demonic spirit in the name of Jesus and it ‘went away’.”
Why the quotations as though a figure of speech? When demons were cast out of the man of the Gadarenes, they left him and entered the swine. The demons went away from him. She may have her explanation or excuse but her use of the quotations marks tells me nothing went away.
Though she would declare there is power in Jesus’ Name against devils, Deborah had no power or authority to command them, any more than did the sons of Sceva, who also used His Name:
“And certain from the strolling Jews, exorcists, undertook to name the Name of the Lord Jesus over those having evil spirits, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. And there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. But answering the evil spirit said, Jesus I know, and I comprehend Paul, but who are you? And the man in whom the evil spirit resided leaped on them, and overcoming them he was strong against them, so that they fled out of the house naked and wounded” (Acts 19:13-16).
Deborah was deceived into thinking she was freed of devils. She continues:
“The next morning I awoke and I felt ill. I was dizzy and my pulse was racing at 110 beats per minutes, I felt nauseous and I was sweating – I through I was going to die. I prayed, my mother prayer; it was so bad she called my grandmother over who prayed for me.”
Had the devil left her, she would have been clean. Manifestly, she was not. Her mother and grandmother could not do anything because they also had neither faith nor power. And Deborah indicates no change whatsoever by their prayers. Had there been change, she would love the Lord for her deliverance and declare what happened, giving Him the glory. After this prayer session she says:
“After this ordeal I promised God I would never buy another metal cd again.”
There was no victory, only an ordeal. In other words, she came out the loser. Now she dares make a flippant vow to God, Who plainly commanded her otherwise:
“But I say to you, Do not swear at all! Not by Heaven, because it is God’s throne; not by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King; nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no. For whatever is more than these comes from evil” (Matthew 5:34-37 MKJV).
This Biblical injunction of Jesus includes oaths, vows, and promises to God or in His Name. Will God then believe her? Why should He? How could He?
This was not a prayer of repentance of sin; it was a prayer of, “Get me out of here,” a prayer of repentance of consequence.
Though many are deceived by such prayers, the difference is night and day. There was no repentance, as we shall see. She was not, and could not, be faithful to her word.
At age 29, she says, “Something is missing from my life. I don’t know what it is but I feel sad.”
Had there been anything remotely genuine or substantial at her ninth year conversion, she would not refer to her life of sin and lack of the Life of God as “something missing” that she could not so much as identify. And she could only say these words now because she has nothing now. She had nothing then and she has nothing now.
She writes: “I was worried because these dreams were not natural. They were completely demonic.”
I believe it; they were. She had cause to worry. Her prayer rebuking the devil did not avail, and neither did her mother’s and grandmother’s prayers avail. Where was an elder? Where was a true shepherd of God? These people – grandmother, mother and daughter – were presumptuous, doing their own thing. While they may excuse themselves, saying, “There was no man of God,” I solemnly tell you that if something real and good were happening, if there were truth and sincerity at work, God would have been at work, and He would have provided His man, a minister to them. He is both able and faithful. But these do not believe in Him, regardless of their vain prayers. They are rebellious; they are proud, and God therefore resists them.
She continued praying, to no avail, and then she says: “My battle had just began; the sad part was my battle was not the demonic spirits, my battle was to find a Christian out there who could help me.”
No, Deborah, your battle was, and still is, with the powers of darkness and with yourself, because you are Satan’s willing, stubborn, ignorant, self-righteous, proud, rebellious, antiChrist host (these adjectives are not used loosely or vindictively, but substantially and truthfully). We are not ignorant of his devices. The demons are quite comfortable in your home and body and soul, and will “behave themselves” just enough to accommodate themselves and to keep you sufficiently placated and deceived for their purposes.
They have even given you the notion that you have the gift of discernment. However, you mention nothing whatsoever of the Second of Three Feasts ordained of God for the spiritual pilgrim, the Feast of Pentecost, the receiving of His Spirit. Only by His Spirit can one have gifts of the Spirit. Also, by your testimony, it is plain to all those who do have God’s Spirit and gifts that you have nothing at all. You remain in delusion and self-deception, Satan’s willing and deserving victim, a prisoner of darkness who must pay every penny of debt before he will release you, by God’s direction.
Again, you deem to be your own savior. God draws to the Son, and the Son is composed of God’s ministers in Christ. Jesus Christ sends them forth. He comes to seek and to save that which is lost. Plainly, you have always maintained control over your destiny, refusing to release your grip. God leaves the self-sufficient to their machinations and preferred independence of Him. That is exactly where you are. You have not had a true Christian or a man of God come to you until now, and them you have reviled with scorn, derision, sarcasm and mockery. But we know who you are, Satan, and, as I have said, you are undone.
Deborah with devils goes on: “That Sunday, I went to the same church, I walked up to the Pastor and told him I wanted to be baptized that day.”
The Scriptures declare:
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you” (Hebrews 13:17 KJV).
But Satan is going to move his vessel to tell the pastor what to do. She will have her way, call the shots, and get indignant when one fails to obey or cooperate with her. She demands that she get baptized, today. There is not a word of repentance, not a word of confession of sins, not an inkling of contrition or humility – it is all putrid self-righteousness. This is Satan at his perfect essence, and his vessel is a first rate daughter to do him proud.
Previous to her approaching the pastor for baptism, she said: “I found a church to go to and I re-dedicated my life to Jesus, I repented for everything I did and changed my ways.”
No, Deborah, you may have changed your activities, appearances and even apparent direction, but you did not change your ways, and your nature remains the very same. The self-righteousness is manifest in your declaration: “I found a church…” “…and I re-dedicated my life to Jesus…” “I repented for everything…” and “(I) changed my ways.”
What vile insults to the Lord Jesus Christ! “I, I, I” is all you can say because “I” is all there is. Who needs a savior? Jesus Christ was nowhere around. But He is here in us to rebuke you now. Your time is up, Deborah.
Was the pastor right? Did he know what he was doing? No, not at all. First, had he been a true shepherd under the Shepherd, he would not have been where he was (read The True Marks of a Cult). Secondly, he would have seen through this wretched, demon-possessed creature, and recognized that she needed much more than water baptism, and, as John the Baptist, who is the prince of baptizers, he would have demanded fruits, of which there were none. The only fruits present were screaming, “This vessel has no right whatsoever to water baptism in Jesus’ Name, none whatsoever.” The man is a hireling, building man’s kingdom and not serving in God’s Kingdom. He is a scatterer, not a gatherer.
So then, what of the next words Deborah declares? She says: “I was baptized along with my father that Sunday afternoon in an 8°C swimming pool in the middle of winter. When I came up out of the water it felt as though my entire past had been erased. Since that day I have never been the same. Thank the Lord Jesus Christ!”
Delusion, plain and simple. Yes, your past was erased, but not in the way you suggest or in a way we should desire. You had a new start all right. Now Satan had a darling servant to pose as a believer, one he promoted to begin deceiving others, not content to leave her with only self-deception. It is true that you have never been the same since, and feelings are not ever to be trusted:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9 MKJV)
Would you like more proof of delusion? Why did the lady in that church to whom you refer trust the pastor’s judgment of baptizing you? Why did she remain there with this church and pastor if he was so spiritually incompetent and unholy, as you describe? What, therefore, did she know? Where were elders, who are appointed to do what she was suggesting?
The whole scene is a miserable farce, a veritable mockery of God. It is all there, Deborah; it is all there. And if the pastor was not interested in your deliverance, what was he doing baptizing, except that he was doing his own thing?
And why would you have gone to a false spiritual minister to be baptized, you and your father? Would God lead to a false servant? Here is the company this pastor keeps. You tell me if God would lead you to him or bring him to you to do His work:
“For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 MKJV).
No, if anything you received even more devils by his instrumentality, and perhaps, if not likely, your father with you. And your mother and grandmother said nothing? That is because they have nothing. These conversions are all spurious – common, accepted of men, convincing to them, perhaps even apparently dramatic, having a form of godliness, but false altogether.
With your own mouth you speak some true words: “At this stage in my life my biblical knowledge was minimal and my fear and doubt that I was not strong enough to handle the demonic manifestation in my home was very apparent.”
And: “I still to this day experience demonic attack through my dreams (not regularly, but enough to be irritating)”
We have seen true deliverance, which is not common. Many may go through the motions, but when it happens in reality, there is a manifestly clean slate. You had no deliverance. We have been dealing with Satan in his religious, blasphemous stance here by you.
In her continuous, know-it-all spirit, Deborah writes: “Hmmm decisions, decisions, oh what do I do! I know, I’ll choose Jesus. End of Story!”
There you have expressions of humility, piety, unworthiness, brokenness, goodness, meekness, and all good things of the spirit, do you not, reader? No, you do not. The fruit manifest is a smart-alecky pride and contempt for those in darkness, not for the darkness itself but for them. You are still in your sins, Deborah; you are still in your sins. You have “another Jesus.”
She writes: “Therefore you need to be vigilant and stand guard at all times and DISCERN everything that comes your way. If it differs even slightly from the Word of God – BEWARE!”
Devils manifest gifts as well. They can copy everything but death by the cross of Christ. But you do not discern at all; you only presume to do so. You have nothing, Deborah. Do I tell you so to mock or belittle you as you do us? No, I tell you so, publicly, that you or someone else will read, repent, and seek the Lord to worship Him in spirit and in truth, not remaining in lies and delusion. You are Satan’s girl for now, as are many professing faith in Christ, and we do not like it, but you will have to suffer the consequences of your sins, from which you say you have repented.
There has been no repentance at all. You have but “rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic,” as have the people of your country. The blacks have thrown out their despotic rulers and are now still left with chaos, murder, bloodshed, crime, fear, poverty, injustice, and turmoil in South Africa – it is one Hell in exchange for another. In the spiritual realm you follow and do likewise.
Finally, you close as a representative and child of Jesus Christ, calling for repentance. You write: “Accept Jesus Christ into your life as your Lord and Saviour, ask for forgiveness for everything you have done and most importantly change your ways – turn your life completely over to Jesus. If you don’t there is no hope otherwise. Without Jesus, your life means nothing and you are on a road to destruction.”
To that I have already replied with Paul’s words to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). I also leave you with these papers: Counterfeit Christianity, Here Is the Way It Is, The Lovely Essence of Satan, The Nature of Deception, Only the Death Sentence Will Avail, Repentance, and So You Want to Walk with Jesus.
Undoubtedly, this will be too much for you, but we are confident that there are those who will read and benefit. You have come out warring against us after we have tried to encourage and help you. At one time, we might have been compelled to ignore you, but today we do battle with the enemy; it is the Lord’s Day, and He is finished winking. We are with Him and with those of whom Enoch prophesied:
“Enoch, the seventh after Adam, prophesied of them: ‘Look! The Master comes with thousands of holy angels (messengers, saints) to bring judgment against them all, convicting each person of every defiling act of shameless sacrilege, of every dirty word they have spewed of their pious filth.’ These are the ‘grumpers,’ the bellyachers, grabbing for the biggest piece of the pie, talking big, saying anything they think will get them ahead” (Jude 1:14-16 MSG).
You were a loser in your youth; you are a loser now, Deborah, and unless you genuinely repent, which is not likely in this life, you will remain a loser to your grave. You said to us:
“No wonder everyone who disagrees with you calls this a diabolical doctrine. For you Victor think you are God himself hence you can speak extra biblical nonsense and think you can get away with it. In fact on more than one occasion you said “Why should you be sad that I should stoop down from God’s throne to tell you your sins to deliver you from them?” So you are going to come down from God’s Throne and tell us our sins AND deliver us from them? I would rather stand infront of a firing squad, thank you!”
With your own mouth have you spoken it. A firing squad have you preferred; a firing squad shall you receive, but for the grace of God. To four of us, independently, did it come that this would be so. Two or three witnesses, or four?
Fighting with beasts in victory, and taking the land, in Jesus’ Name,
This entry began with our correspondence that shows how Deborah, seeing the lies and evil-doing of others, chose not to give witness to the Truth, Jesus Christ, but to keep silent while pretending to serve Him, a true friend of the devil and child of hell. Victor then showed how Deborah, according to her testimony, became a child of hell and full of devils. Now, in her animosity towards us for calling her into account for her vain profession of Christ, she has written an article mocking us and the Diabolical Doctrines listed on our site.
Contending with Satan
Here is the announcement of that article:
This is for Paul, Victor and Co. and for anyone who thinks they are men of ‘God’.
The Path of Truth – to where? [Posting no longer available]
I know Paul/Victor will be reading this site, so to them: – don’t bother emailing me, your emails are set for instant deletion. As for the demonic spirits attached to either of you – I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!!!!
How cowardly are the wicked, shouting out in public with mock bravery while slamming the door behind them so they cannot be held accountable for their accusations! So insecure and fearful are the children of darkness!
Everything Deborah contests in her posting is amply answered on our site. Nevertheless, I have some things to say in reply to her title and question, “The Path of Truth – to where?” for Truth’s sake and for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. Let those with ears hear.
Deborah is consumed, above all, with ridicule and hatred of the glorious truth of God’s reconciliation of all things through Jesus Christ, as though we have greatly blasphemed His Holy Name by proclaiming it was never His thought or intention to endlessly torture people. She has not even responsibly red and answered the materials she cites, much less bothered to read our answer to her objections to this glorious truth (The Restitution of All Things).
It is a peculiar thing that people who profess they have been saved by the grace and mercy of God take such umbrage at the mention of God granting mercy to others. If they had experienced His grace, you might ask, how is it they are so incensed when told that other undeserving people will too? Why, you would think they were devils reacting that way. That is precisely the case here!
Deborah is deceived into thinking she is deserving of Heaven, and others are not, so to hell with them. Who else but devils and the self-righteous are incensed with the thought of God exercising His forgiveness and goodness towards His creation? Devils are there to indulge the flesh of man rather than lose their quarry to God. That is why they hate and react so vehemently to the mention of the future restoration of lost sinners to God. They wish to keep them right where they are, in their present darkness, wherein the devils can feed themselves on their flesh. Such are the ways of Satan, who Deborah calls “Lord” and argues his case as his willing subject.
Her complaint begins:
“The email communication started out ok, but then turned into a bit of a nightmare for I am now branded an unbeliever who needs to be saved. Which is funny because they don’t believe in eternal damnation.”
Exposing Deborah is not branding her. The Light exposes all things, whether they be good or evil, without condemnation. It is Deborah who brands and condemns herself by her loud protests and rejection of Christ:
“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God” (John 3:17-18 MKJV).
Deborah quotes from “Are We a Cult?”:
“They say, ‘Could it be because we believe in the reconciliation of all things as surely testified of in Scripture, a wonderful hope and promise for all? This doctrine is certainly contrary to the diabolical doctrine of eternal torment for the majority of mankind, as taught by mainstream nominal Christendom. It also, in one fell swoop, condemns any and all forms of self-righteousness. It is a hard thing for one to truly believe that he is no more righteous than any other.‘
Righty, firstly it’s written all over the bible that there is a hell and people are going to go there if they don’t accept Jesus Christ. Secondly, by saying this they DENY what Jesus Christ did on the cross, i.e., if we are all going to live happily ever after then why do we need Jesus Christ? Confusing, yes I know…especially when they tell you, you are an unbeliever.”
We never said Hell does not exist; how stupidly evil of Deborah to claim that we did. We simply affirm what the Scriptures say, which is that Jesus Christ, and not Hell, is the Omega, the End All. We also affirm that the Scriptures do not say or teach that “you must accept Jesus Christ.” Victor has covered this in his explanation of Deborah’s testimony. Read The False and Misleading Gospel of “Accepting” Jesus Christ.
And just how does the fact that Jesus Christ will save all of humanity deny what He did on the cross? Is He somehow more affirmed and glorified by saving the 5% of the world population that “accepted” Him? Are not these self-righteous choosers affirming themselves, rather than God, and is not the devil glorified above all by taking the lion’s share of souls to burn with him forever?
We preach the call of God to His people to come out of the formal, religious, “Christian” organizations of this world, which Jesus called the “gates of Hell” (Matthew 16:18). Deborah mocks what is holy, devil-style:
“Um, come out of what? You don’t believe in eternal damnation remember?”
Apparently it does not bother Deborah to be part of the wicked works of men, and why should it when she gladly companies with devils? She has manifestly demonstrated no love of God or His Kingdom, of which she has no part, according to the revelation given to John:
“But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie” (Revelation 22:15 MKJV).
And how is it we are found to be in the City of God?
“Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the City” (Revelation 22:14 MKJV).
But Deborah rejects the Law of God and blasphemes Him by attributing dismissal of the Law to Jesus Christ:
“Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and we are no longer under law – for the law means nothing to Jesus Christ.”
Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the Law would fail. That is not “nothing”; it is quite the opposite.
Deborah is a false teacher, with a false grace, which in reality is iniquity – lawlessness. Mark these words, which demonstrate how diabolical and false she and her doctrine are:
“There will be false teachers…whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them. For if God did not have pity on the angels who did evil, but sent them down into hell, to be kept in chains of eternal night TILL they were judged…. [He] is able to keep the upright safe in the time of testing, and to keep evil-doers under punishment till the day of judging” (2 Peter 2:3-9 BBE).
Hell is the place where the wicked are held while reserved for judgment. Eternal night does not go on forever, time without end, but has an end in Light and judgment. Someday Deborah will sorely regret mocking God and His righteous judgment that she has yet to face while she remains in her chains of darkness. She will learn to fear God:
“But I will show you Whom you should fear: fear Him Who after He kills, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” (Luke 12:5 EMTV)
Deborah is wrong about what we preach, having no faculties to hear or comprehend the Word of God. She says:
“They believe that God is Love, that He would never send anyone to hell. Hence you get another chance to accept Jesus after you die.”
“Getting another chance to accept Jesus” implies it is something you can do, but you can’t and never could “accept” Jesus. How can those sold out to sin and the devil, as Deborah is, choose God? Christ chooses whom He wills, and not the other way around. It is a matter of grace, not works. Deborah is a “Christian” by her own choosing and doing, which means she is not Christ’s Christian. She has nothing at all to do with Him.
Deborah argues that because men can only die once, they must go to an eternal fire pit afterwards, if they did not “accept” Christ in this life. But the Scriptures do not say that, as Victor points out. Here she explains one Scripture in particular that deals with this matter:
“Lets analyse this scripture for them for apparently this is a difficult one to fathom. It says, Hebrews 9 v 27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die”. That means once, not twice or three times. “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many…” That also only means once, not twice or three times.”
Yes, the emphasis is on His sacrifice as a singular event. He only died once, not several times. Why is that so difficult to fathom? Because devils block your eyes and ears from seeing or hearing anything, Deborah. The statement of this fact is right in front of you in the context of the Scripture you think to understand:
“…not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Holies every year with another’s blood– since it would have been necessary for Him to suffer often from the foundation of the world; but now, once at the consummation of the ages, He has been revealed for the removal of sin through the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:25-26 EMTV).
Christ only had to die once to say, “It is finished,” completing the sacrifice for mankind for all times, until all are made alive in Him, and death, the last enemy, is put away.
How can the above Scriptures be interpreted to mean that people who die are out of the reach of Christ, since He is all powerful and now has the keys of death and hell? Is He not going to use them? Is that not what the Scripture says?
“For this Christ both died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and living” (Romans 14:9 MKJV).
The same Lord Jesus Christ Who is at the right hand of God went and preached to the spirits in prison from the time of the flood, of which Peter writes:
“For to this end the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit” (1 Peter 4:6 MKJV).
How then can it be taken to mean that upon physical death God is finished with His work of reconciling all things to Himself, giving up on those that were not good enough to “accept” Him in this life? What wicked, presumptuous poppycock!
Deborah, you say we supply no Scriptures. You are a liar. Anyone that reads from The Restitution of All Things will know it, especially The Good News, though truly all our writings, even as I answer you here with the Scriptures you ignore, mock and despise.
“The fact that men die once from this world does not mean they no longer have opportunity to be saved.”
Deborah says: “Biblical scriptures please?”
There are five Scriptural references with an explanation that support the above quote in the same portion of the writing, Diabolical Doctrine: Salvation Is Possible Only in This Life. Anyone can find those references there, if they are willing to look and able to see. But you, Deborah, are unwilling and unable, therefore you mock and condemn us for your shortfall. You are vile.
And how about answering for yourself according to the main message and question at the end of the writing? What are you doing to ensure that as many souls as possible will not end up being tormented in eternal hellfire?
“Now if you call me diabolical because I teach against this doctrine [salvation possibly in this life only], not believing it, yet you do not act according to your profession of believing this doctrine, then in God’s sight I am more justified than are you who condemn me. Interesting?
CONSIDER THE ALTERNATIVE TO BELIEVING THIS DOCTRINE: YOU WILL NO LONGER BE GUILTY OF CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE OF THE HIGHEST ORDER NOR WILL YOU BE IMPOSSIBLY BURDENED.”
Deborah says: “Paul explains that God will judge every man on the basis of what he knows.”
Indeed, so did the Lord speak. He who knew his Lord’s will but did not obey will be beaten with more stripes. The judgment of God has a holy purpose, to deliver a soul from hell:
“You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell” (Proverbs 23:14 MKJV).
Judgment is an answer, not an end in itself. What is the point otherwise? There is no point in more or less stripes, if it simply goes on forever without change. Eternal torment makes the very idea of gradations for correction obsolete and silly. But the Lord did not speak without knowing exactly what He was saying and doing, as you do.
You tell us God has given you a brain, but you do not think clearly. That is because you are drugged up on false religion, which has rendered you senseless. Even men of this world mete out punishments with the idea of rehabilitation. There are programs in jail for murderers and rapists, but, according to you, God gives up on wicked men for whom He died and over whom He has all power. Unregenerate mankind will recycle his waste products, but, according to you, God trashes humanity created in His image and into whom He has breathed His life. You make Him out to be the most ungracious being possible, which is precisely what you are. Your god is really you.
Deborah asks: “Besides that, what’s the opposite of eternal life?”
Death, which God destroys in the Lake of Fire. You emphasize the word “perish” here, “And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish…,” as though that must mean never-ending torture. But “perish” means to be “fully destroyed.” So how can you have an immortal body that never perishes, yet perish? You are confounded, Deborah.
Here is the true meaning of God’s Word, explained by His Word:
“They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed” (Hebrews 1:11-12 MKJV).
I have perished, but, thank God, I am born anew in the resurrection life of Jesus Christ, something Deborah knows nothing about. Otherwise, she could not say this:
“If there is no eternal damnation what did Jesus go through all this for? Apparently it meant nothing.”
One who knows His salvation could never, ever say such a blasphemous thing! What Christ went through means everything! By His sheer mercy and grace, He turned me, baptized me, sustained me, crucified me, and raised me to eternal life. There was no way I could do it. He did it all, and saved me. That is why He went through what He did. Why should His blood mean any less because He will do this for everyone else? That makes it more meaningful, and not only so, but genuinely legitimate. Only self-righteous, insecure, hateful sore losers despise His goodness reserved for all mankind. Read the section The Restitution of All Things, which will answer all your questions and objections.
Here is more twisted and darkened logic:
“You speak about evil pricipalities but yet you do not believe in eternal damnation for those who follow these evil principalities. Where do they follow them too? Hawaii?”
Where do those who follow the powers of darkness go? Where you, Deborah, are presently – an inner state of Hell, which explains your bitter sarcasm. Just as the Kingdom of God comes from within, so does Satan’s kingdom. That is why Jesus said that those who believe in Him shall never die. Physical death does not separate us from Heaven, and neither will death separate you from Hell. But we know that the devil has only a short time left, and that no murderer, which the devil was from the beginning, has eternal life in him or her.
Deborah, it is not we but you, as a child of darkness, that do not see and therefore misinterpret God’s Word:
“Because Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men they misinterpret this to be that ‘He died for everyone and everyone will get saved.’”
In our Bible it says, “Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” Apparently in your Bible it says, “Where grace abounded, sin abounded much more.” Either that or you are reading the same words we do, and you misinterpret them.
You and your gospel are so miserably wretched, Deborah. Who in his or her right mind would want to be where you are with your devils, anyway? You cut off reply comments on your blog because you cannot cope – devils without and devils within. And you call what you have the “victory of the Lord and the power of His Presence”? How deluded and great your need truly is! So we are sent to speak to you by the grace of God, which will not fail in what He seeks to accomplish:
“For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14 KJV).
Regarding your confusion on the figurative use of the word “fire”:
“John says that Jesus Christ will gather the wheat (believers) into the barn, but burn up the chaff (unbelievers) with unquenchable fire. He didn’t say, he will burn up the chaff in an imaginary fire, or a figurative fire, or a literal fire, or a fire that only lasts a short time, or a fire that tickles you silly, but an unquenchable fire – impossible to suppress or destroy.”
Because the saints speak of the fire of God in figurative terms does not mean the fire is imaginary. What you do not see or know is that right now you experience that very fire we speak from the mouth of God, which you find impossible to suppress or destroy. On the contrary, it will destroy you – for good. When the fire has done its work, you will no longer blaspheme and be writhing with worms, gnashing your teeth, as you do. You will give glory to God and no longer to the Devil.
The fire of God is unquenchable. The chaff cannot stand up to it or Him; He is that consuming fire. God consumes all things, which is another way of saying that He reconciles all things to Himself. Why has He baptized those He saves with fire? It is written that judgment begins at the house of God. If the fire of God was literal and palpable in this world, then those baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire would combust before your eyes. Instead they are judged and made new.
How pathetic are the carnal, wicked objections coming from Deborah’s embittered, blackened heart! What does she know of what God thinks, or what we speak from Him? Yet she opens her proud mouth and pours out foolishness:
“Victor and Paul would like to believe that God will not send unbelievers to eternal damnation for they ‘imagine’ that ‘God is Love’ to everyone.”
We imagine nothing. God is love. That will never change. He so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, so that the world might be saved through Him. Who will stop God from accomplishing what He has set out to do, and has accomplished? Who is more powerful than All-Powerful God? Deborah says that you are – you hold the power to choose Him and, if you do not, He will give you an unquenchable body that He will forever torture in unquenchable fire. And her god is loving and just?! We say her god is a vindictive devil, just like her, and we are proven right by what comes out of her mouth:
“But they fail to realise that God loves his Children – those who worship and follow Him, those that don’t are handed over to the Devil. God didn’t make this decision, we do, for we have been given ‘free will’, a ‘conscience’, a freedom to ‘choose’.”
Shall we call on our brother Paul’s words to put this lie to rest once again? Yes, let’s do:
“Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of His choice, a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do. The Scriptures say, ‘I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.’ What can we say-that God is unfair? That’s unthinkable! For example, God said to Moses, ‘I will be kind to anyone I want to. I will be merciful to anyone I want to.’ Therefore, God’s choice does not depend on a person’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy” (Romans 9:11-16 GW).
Yes, we, those who have been washed from our sins and given a new Name, love God. We know His mercy, which transcends our righteousness, as stars do the dust of earth. Did we make this happen, or did God? Our brother John has the answer:
“We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19 MKJV).
God is Decider in Chief, not man.
Almighty God is not dependent on sinful men, waiting for them to finally “get it” and “accept” Him. Here is what the Scriptures say about that false notion:
“And He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore His own arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness sustained Him” (Isaiah 59:16 MKJV).
Those who think the way Deborah does have never known genuine salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ. They have a self-made, cheap, wretched counterfeit.
God is fully in charge, doing whatever pleases Him, even now. He is your Lord whether you believe it or not. Hear that, people. If nothing else, know that God is God, not you or the devil. Your fate is not in your hands or the devil’s. It is in God’s. He is your Judge. That is why you should fear Him. And He will correct you in full measure, so whatever you do with what you call your free will, know that you will be held in account for it:
“Rejoice, in your youth, young man; and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth, and walk in the ways of your heart, and in the sight of your eyes; but know that for all these things God will bring you into judgment” (Ecclesiastes 11:9 MKJV).
Here are some other doctrines, events, and teachings Deborah gets wrong.
She quotes from “Are We a Cult?”:
“They say, ‘Could it be because we have had some community living and commitment? This aspect seems to scare many people away. Is it wrong to live in community?‘
Ahh so now we see that belonging to their community is the only way.”
My, how devils lie! Show us where our statement can be linked in any way to your audacious conclusion, Deborah. But that is why you flee when none pursues, because you do not have legitimate answers or excuses for your lies.
“Then…this is a very interesting comment: ‘Could it be because I lead and others follow? Is that a crime? We are accused of ‘controlling.’ Apparently, some people do not like being told what to do. They prefer their pride and independence intact. That is the nature of lawless, unregenerate man.‘ …. ‘And the congregants love to have this power. They are not interested in worshiping God.‘
So if one does not want to ‘follow’ them then you have pride and you are lawless and unregenerate. Hmmm, so by their own words it’s a good thing that everyone should lead, ‘it’s not a crime’ says Victor.
So what’s your point Victor? Oh silly me, it’s because we don’t want to follow YOU hence we are all now unbelievers and are all going hell…oh sorry live happily ever after. You say people love to have this power (to lead that is), do you like this power Victor? Obviously so.”
I must wade in the sewage to answer this satanic thinking and foul expression. What we have here is Deborah putting words in our mouths to serve her master, who contests the Word of God, just as he did from the very beginning. We contend with him and take the land back from the usurper and liar.
Can you see what Satan is doing and his subtle manner of lying? Victor did not say religious hypocrites have a problem submitting to him; he said they have a problem with submission, period. When they see someone submit to Victor as a man of God they scoff, “You are a cult, people submit to you. No one will tell us what to do.” They include their own ministers, properly called hirelings.
Satan’s most prized possession is the heart of man, which he has captured by inducing him to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, making man independent from God. Otherwise, should man return and submit to God, Satan loses his power (“I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightening”). He will never allow his minions to be told what to do, and as long as there is one person heeding him in his ways, he retains some power.
Now we know that no man can be free of the prince of this world except he submits to God, and this is not possible if he does not submit to others, namely the servants of God:
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you” (Hebrews 13:17 KJV).
Obviously it is not a crime that some are given by God to lead, such as Paul the apostle. How can one jump to the conclusion, however, that all should lead? If all are leaders, then none are, because there are none to follow. To infer from Victor’s words that it is good that everyone leads is manifestly Satanic, both deceptively twisting what he said and yet honest about Satan’s rallying cry, wherein every man leads him or herself by doing what is right in his or her own sight.
Those who do their own thing and call it “leadership” are obviously not leading others as shepherds under the Head, Jesus Christ, and doing His will. They are doing their own, and doing so in the Name of Christ makes them stiff-necked rebels. Only a wicked heart such as Deborah’s would suggest otherwise.
As men of God and His shepherds, we are not here to lead pigs. The Lord has not come to give the children’s meat to dogs. He has come to rebuke the scorners like you, Deborah, who blasphemes in His Name. You prefer to keep your pride and independence intact, but we are here to bring you into judgment with God for both. There is no escaping your judgment and you are anything but happy about it. You are miserable; the tone of your writing loudly proclaims that to all.
“Paul’s testimony is an interesting one. No where does he say that he accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour and repented for his sins.”
As we have said, no Christian has ever accepted the Lord. What happens with true Christians is what happened to me: The Lord Personally confronted me, and turned me around to follow Him, beginning with leading me to forsake my sins, like fornication (as specifically pointed out in the testimony).
You protest against this, according to the doctrines of devils:
“Paul speaks of getting a conscience when he says, ‘My conscience began to bother me about things that previously were not a problem at all.‘ Yet he did not at that time and still does not have the Holy Spirit abiding in him for he never actually accepted Jesus Christ into his life. His ‘concience’ was his fleshy conscience, not the Holy Spirit speaking to him.”
What do you know about the Holy Spirit, Deborah, while you house demonic spirits? If I asked God to tell me the truth, and He answered by telling me, a Jew, that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, and awakened my conscience about what I was doing wrong, who are you to reject this, Satan? Yes, you have tried this before, and here is what God said to you:
“And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke you, O Satan; even the LORD that has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And He answered and spoke unto those that stood before Him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him He said, Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you, and I will clothe you with change of raiment” (Zechariah 3:2-4 KJV).
“Now people can argue that he must have been born again, and possibly forgot to mention it? How can anyone forget something that important and not mention it in a ‘testimony’ of all things. Because, he never did!”
I was not born again at the time of my testimony, which recounts what began over 30 years ago and only covers about two years. I was a believer, but I was not yet baptized in the Spirit of Christ, which is the new birth. What happened there was that I was corrected by the Lord, Who sent a man of God to lead me in His way. That is what Satan hates and resists most, submission to God. Men will do anything in place of submitting to Him, even suffering death instead.
“But here’s the clincher, Paul divorced his wife because Victor and Marilyn (Victor’s wife) told him too. Victor’s wife told Paul, ‘You won’t be hearing from the Lord again.‘ because he was not sure he wanted to divorce his wife. Hmmm lovely god you follow Victor…my God would never say that!”
No, Deborah, your god will never say that because he will always be there to please the flesh and to reject the cross. He would never call on Abraham to offer up Isaac. He would never call on Gideon to fight with 300 instead of 30,000, against an innumerable host of enemies. He would never call on forsaking all for his sake. Instead, he would persuade you to eat from the Tree of Knowledge to give you power to “Discern the World,” an ungodly, boastful, empty power that is at enmity with the True God of the Universe, the Lord Jesus Christ. Satan can always find or make a legal way for the flesh to have what it wants rather than to submit and obey God. Satan says, “Fornication? No problem, get married and you’re covered. Men’s laws trump God’s laws when I make you as gods unto yourselves in the Name of God. Follow me and you can have it all, just like when I promised Jesus I would give Him everything if He followed me.”
“Basically in a nut shell these guys believe in good works. When they tell you you need to repent for your wickedness and unrighteousness it’s because you have done something bad like ‘disagree with them’ etc. They will tell you that you blaspheme the name of Jesus Christ if you don’t agree with them. Funny, I didn’t realise you were Jesus Christ.”
Get behind us, Satan. Displaying good works by the faith of Christ is not evil:
“But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20 MKJV)
Having the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ is not wrong:
“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11 KJV).
And obeying the commandments of God is not trusting in the Law:
“He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him” (John 14:21 EMTV).
No, Deborah, you have not realized that we are Christ’s; that is your problem. You do not confess that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh. He comes in us, and He has sent us to speak as His mouth. As the antiChrist you are, you mock and scorn. We are here to let you and the world know that your day is finished, Satan.
Deborah’s remarks on some of our Diabolical Doctrines:
Deborah: “Their view on this is that accepting Jesus Christ is not enough, you have to live a ‘Godly’ life without fail in order to be truly saved.”
Those who repent will bring forth fruits that demonstrate repentance. Those who have phony conversions like Deborah, accepting a false Christ of their own making and acting by their own will power and doing whatever they think is right, bring forth evil fruits, as we have shown.
Deborah: “If they did have the Holy Spirit abiding in them they would never say something this stupid.”
Not only is it “stupid” to the wicked that we teach that God is in control and chooses whom He wills, never the other way around, but it is absolutely abhorrent because it completely wipes out any possibility of said person (Deborah) having any righteousness or credibility on her own. Accepting her false Christ is what has empowered Deborah to speak as ostensibly authoritative and to say whatever she wants, as though she is righteous and credible; she is neither. She is only indignant because she is exposed. By the fire that comes out of our mouths she has been “indignited.”
Deborah: “They argue about the Trinity based on Roman Catholic doctrine. The fact of the matter is God is 3 persons: God, Jesus Christ who is God and the Holy Spirit which is God. They are ONE and the SAME.”
It can never be said that three persons is one person. Put three persons in a room and you count three, not one. God is not three persons. There is only one Mind and Person, as He says:
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD” (Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV).
“…before Me there was no God formed, and there will not be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and there is no Savior but Me” (Isaiah 43:10-11 BBE).
The Savior is God, and God is the Savior. He counts One, not two or three. Read Jesus Christ Is God and let him or her that reads know and believe that Jesus Christ is God.
Deborah: “If it’s impossible not to sin after being saved, then why do they strive to live such a Godly life? What happens when they slip up?”
While there is no point in trying to reason with devils, we do wish to let those who struggle with sin and seek to do what is right know that God has a place of deliverance for the one who believes and obeys Him, even as Paul our beloved brother discovered:
“O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7:24-25 MKJV)
As a believer, you can and are commanded to come to the place in this life where you are no longer a slave to sin, but are free in Christ to do what is right. Does not God through Christ empower those who believe to do what is impossible for man? “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
When Jesus walked on water, what did He say to Peter? This is impossible for you, a mere man? No, listen:
“But Peter answered Him and said, Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the waters. So He said, Come. And stepping down from the boat, Peter walked on the waters to go toward Jesus. But seeing the strong wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, Lord, save me! And immediately, Jesus reaching out His hand, laid hold of him, and said to him, O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” (Matthew 14:28-31 EMTV)
When the Lord was finished with him, the time came when Peter could and would walk on water. Paul also came to the place where he was no longer a slave to sin, and tells how:
“For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:19-20 KJV).
Does the one living by the faith of the Son of God sin? Jesus said, “Go and sin no more.” We that are crucified with Christ walk on water.
Peter said the same as Paul:
“Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same mind, because he who suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the remaining time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God” (1 Peter 4:1-2 EMTV).
We are not struggling with sin, because as it is written:
“For we who have believed enter that rest…” (Hebrews 4:3 EMTV).
It is a lie from Hell to imply that we say we have never sinned. This is obvious to the one reading our testimonies or site. What we do claim is that Jesus Christ has delivered us from our sins and has transformed us by His resurrection life because He lives in us, which causes us to live as He does. This is that true and eternal life; praise God! Only devils and the flesh resist. But if you, those struggling with the flesh, resist the devil, he will flee from you. There is a place of victory! Believe. We know and have that victory, which few know.
But what about these verses that Deborah cites, not as a lover of Truth, but as an excuser of her sins that she will not forsake?
“And then we have these verses, which are quite simple and easy to understand:
1 John 2 v 1: ‘My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous‘
1 John 1 v 9: ‘If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us‘”
There is a place of deliverance, which is the point of our refutation of the blasphemous and diabolical doctrine that it is impossible not to sin. Paul wrote:
“But to him who does not work but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God accounts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins were covered over; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall by no means impute sin’” (Romans 4:5-8 EMTV).
In another posting, I answer the concern about contradiction from John’s letter as follows:
“It [John’s letter] appears to contradict what we are saying and other Scriptures we have quoted. We know the Scriptures are in perfect harmony, so I will explain it now, verse by verse:
1 John 1:8-10 EMTV
8: If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If you come to God and deny you have sin (not so much with your lips as with your conduct and life), you are deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you. If the truth is in you, planted there by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, then the following will happen when you come to Christ:
9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Coming into the Light, you will see your sins and confess them. Then God will not only forgive your sins, but will also cleanse you from all of your unrighteousness.
Will you return to that from which you have escaped? Not if you are His sheep:
‘For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the Holy Commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: ‘The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV).
10: If we claim that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
If we have escaped the corruptions of the world, then we certainly cannot claim that we have not sinned, having been part of that corruption. We know where we came from, and we know what the Lord has done for us, and we declare it unequivocally. That is what you will see on our website, beginning with Our Testimonies.
Some of you presume we speak of the perfection or sinlessness of the flesh, because all you have known is the flesh, and you know, whether you admit it or not, just how corrupt that is. But we speak of the inner man in Christ, the one you have not experienced, which cannot be experienced by those who have not known the Lord.”
Yes, in verse 2:1 John tells the little children in Christ that they have an Advocate if they sin. Amen. But we are not to remain as little children; we must grow up to become men. And what does John say about the young men?
“I am writing to you, fathers, because you have come to know Him Who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I am writing to you, little children, because you have come to know the Father. I wrote to you, fathers, because you have come to know Him Who is from the beginning. I wrote to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one” (1 John 2:13-14 EMTV).
Do those who overcome the evil one live in sin? Hardly! Jesus said:
“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the Kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how is one able to enter a strong man’s house to plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his household” (Matthew 12:28-29).
Are we not plundering Satan’s household by the Spirit of God in Christ? The Lord says of His work:
“He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters” (Matthew 12:30 EMTV).
Devils would rather you not know or care about these things. They would keep you in darkness, which is Deborah’s choice for herself. Her conversion is a deceptive counterfeit.
Deborah: “So what they are saying is, is that Christ didn’t do it all. We in our own power have to do other things in order to be completely saved.”
No, we are not saying that, Satan, and you know it. We know you do not care for Truth, being a liar from the beginning, but we speak to those who will now see your lies by the Light of all men.
The Lord Jesus Christ said to those who believed that they must strive to enter in (Luke 13:24), and that only those who endured to the end would be saved (Matthew 24:13). We are given faith to exercise, or if we do not, we are found to be like the wicked man in the Lord’s example who buried what was given him and was punished for doing so.
But those who exercise the faith of Christ will grow up unto Him and will yield fruit according to His power and life. For those who come to Him, that is only the beginning and, instead of nothing more, everything is required (read Only the Death Sentence Will Avail), even as Jesus said:
Luke 14:26-33 KJV
(26) If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
(27) And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after Me, cannot be My disciple.
(28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sits not down first, and counts the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
(29) Lest haply, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
(30) Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish…
(33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be My disciple.
Yes, devils surely have a great problem with the cross, an insurmountable one in fact. Those who take up the cross and go all the way are made safe from the kingdom of Hell, and, in turn, storm it to deliver those held in bondage there, as we do this day.
Deborah: “Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and we are no longer under law – for the law means nothing to Jesus Christ; Galatians 5:6 ‘For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor un-circumcision means anything, but faith working through love.’”
Getting circumcised, which is symbolic of keeping the letter of the Law, doesn’t save anyone – witness the Pharisees who crucified Christ. Does that negate the value or necessity for the Law? God forbid:
“But we know that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the Law is not laid down for the righteous, but for the lawless and insubordinate [Deborah], for the ungodly and for sinners [Deborah], for unholy and profane [Deborah], for killers of fathers and killers of mothers [Deborah], for murderers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers [Deborah all], and if there is any other thing that is opposed to sound doctrine [Deborah], according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted” (1 Timothy 1:8-11 EMTV).
The lawless say they are not under the Law of God, excusing their lawlessness by calling it “grace.” The lawless hate the Law and discount It because indicted by It. We, the lawful, the “Legalized of God,” are not under the Law because we fulfill it in Christ by the grace of God. We, in Christ, are the Law fulfilled.
Deborah: “Since Paul, Victor and Co. keep the Sabbath I can see why they defend this one. Yes they are correct, Sunday is not the Sabbath day – this was created by Roman Catholics because Sunday is named after the Sun god whom they worship. But they are in error because they keep the Sabbath (Saturday) only because it is a ‘good work’ that will complete their salvation.”
That is entirely your wicked opinion, Deborah. If you know that Saturday is the Sabbath, sanctified by God and set aside for man to bless him, who are you to fault those who receive it as such? Isn’t that like you, accuser of the brethren, to call dirty what God has made clean?
Deborah: “Victor says, ‘IF YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THE SABBATH DAY, THEN YOU ARE DAMNED‘
The bible says; Colossians 2 v 16 ‘Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days’”
Are you not judging us, liar? Paul was not speaking of the Sabbath, but of “sabbath days,” the shadow feasts that are fulfilled in Christ for those who walk with and obey Him.
The Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments. Do you not enter into judgment, which is what “damned” means, by blowing it off? Reader, ought you not to consider your ways and what God has for those who believe? Here is the rest of the portion quoted:
“IF YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THE SABBATH DAY, THEN YOU ARE DAMNED. CONSIDER THE ALTERNATIVE TO THIS DOCTRINE, BEING THE ENTERING INTO THE TRUE SABBATH, AS THE HEBREWS WRITER ADMONISHES, WHEREBY WE ARE AT PEACE WITH AND REST IN GOD.”
Devils love this one. They love to have their slaves thinking they are free, content to serve them and the prince of darkness. Deborah quotes Victor and comments below:
“They say, ‘The Scriptures clearly teach that man is born in sin and a slave to it. If he is a slave, then how is it he has free will? I want to boldly declare now that it is God and not man that determines all things. Man determines nothing…UNTIL HE IS REDEEMED FROM SIN, FULFILLED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, SITTING ON THE THRONE AND REIGNING WITH HIM. COMPLETE IN CHRIST, HE THEN AND ONLY THEN HAS A FREE WILL, EVEN AS GOD.‘
Man is indeed born into sin and a slave to it, until such time they ‘choose’ to accept Jesus Christ into their lives wherein they are forgiven.”
Those who choose to accept Jesus Christ have experienced their own work, or the work of the religious, and have nothing from Jesus Christ. In fact, He says this of those in such works:
“A curse is on you, scribes and Pharisees, false ones! For you go about land and sea to get one disciple and, having him, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves” (Matthew 23:15 BBE).
“But if God determines all things, are they saying that some people will land up in prison for doing crime because God determined that this is where they would end up? Is God responsible for their crimes?”
The apostle answers:
“But indeed, O man, who are you to be answering back against God? Surely the thing formed will not say to Him Who formed it, ‘Why did You made me like this?” Or does not the Potter have authority over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?” (Romans 9:20-21 EMTV)
The rebel replies:
“No, we have FREE WILL this is why God gave us a CONSCIENCE,” as was written of her in Scripture:
“As for the word which you have said to us in the Name of the Lord, we will not give ear to you. But we will certainly do every word which has gone out of our mouths…” (Jeremiah 44:16-17 BBE).
The liar answers:
“Just like when someone comes up to you and speaks to you about Jesus Christ, you have FREE WILL to say, ‘no I am not interested in hearing further’, or ‘yes, I want to hear more’.”
Deborah, are you free to hear and believe? Have not the devils blinded you and made you deaf because your heart is not right with God and you love your sin? How, then, are you free?
The blind and confused one says:
“By saying that we have ‘no free will’ makes it easier for them to try tell you that there is no such thing as hell. Because how can God send someone who does not have ‘free will’ to hell.”
Who says there is no Hell? We see you there, Deborah, and have said so. Yes you choose it to be this way, because God has determined to judge you. He has no problem binding sinners who are not free, any more than men have a problem jailing a murderer who has no morals. If it makes sense for the judge to say, “We cannot put you in jail because you have no morals,” then it also makes sense that God cannot correct those who are not free to choose right.
So instead of admitting your helplessness, Deborah, you stagger on in your darkness, trying to label us as Jehovah’s Witnesses so you can justify dismissing us. You had a feeling about the name of our site and found an obscure reference buried in one of their writings to “the path of truth,” so, yep, that clinched it for you – we must be JW’s! How convincing a proof!
You have a problem with Victor saying the Lord has granted him to come to the Lord on behalf of others, even those who do not believe but are given faith to come and ask for help (which some have, receiving their requests). You think to have found a clever way to disprove this:
“Interestingly enough, I wonder if these unbelievers that came to Victor requesting that he petitions to God on their behalf even got saved afterwards. No they didn’t.”
According to the works of men, you must get them “saved,” which means agreeing with you and supporting your doctrines. But that is not the way of God, according to His Record. When Naaman the Syrian, an unbeliever, came to Elisha to be healed, Elisha received his request of God on Naaman’s behalf:
“Then he [Naaman] went back to the man of God [Elisha], with all his train, and, taking his place before him, said, Now I am certain that there is no God in all the earth, but only in Israel… But may your servant have the Lord’s forgiveness for this one thing: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon for worship there, supported on my arm, and my head is bent in the house of Rimmon; when his head is bent in the house of Rimmon, may your servant have the Lord’s forgiveness for this thing. And he [Elisha] said to him, Go in peace” (2 Kings 5:15,18-19 BBE).
God is God over all peoples, and all are His to do with as He pleases. May those who seek Him know this, understand, and have peace.
You have a problem with Victor’s proverbs, saying:
“When I read them I was surprised that a grown man who speaks eloquent English could come up with such utter rubbish.”
Fools eat their fingers while they feed. The wisdom of God is garbage to the self-confident, who despise wisdom and instruction (Proverbs 1:7). Appropriately then, many of the proverbs Deborah cites apply to her and this correspondence, such as:
14. Does a hammer drive a nail with gentleness? Does an axe cut down a tree with love?
18. As a dog defecates and urinates where it will, so sinners do as they please.
20. A fool will not listen to good counsel or he would not be a fool.
27. Justice and right doing prolong the life, but evil dissipates the soul.
31. A window lets in the light to see, and it lets one be seen.
34. Confusion comes from these three, and four: prematurity, ill will, self-serving, and lack of knowledge.
35. Wisdom works and it teaches; foolishness does not work but it teaches the wise.
38. Pretended virtue and sincere vice are one.
83. Foolish words spoken are as passing gas.
286. The hyena laughs because it would tear the flesh and devour.
I will end with another proverb:
“Whoever despises the Word shall be destroyed, but he who fears the commandment shall be rewarded” (Proverbs 13:13 MKJV).