We submitted this comment to the post When Were You Saved?:
Show me whom you follow, and I will know what manner of person you are or will become. If you do not know whom you are following, don’t you think it is time to find out how and where you are being led? Do you think you will altogether escape the consequences because ignorant? Think again. You already suffer them.
John Calvin was one of the most vicious of wolves ever to pose as a lamb of God. His supremely self-righteous spirit lives on in those who lionize and follow him, even unbeknownst to themselves. Truly, “that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”
I hope this was written in the context of humor. Rather funny, however, though.
3/19/08 9:33 AM
Sara Schmidt said…
What kind of person finds murder funny? I do not even think John Calvin, as wicked as he was to persecute the saints of God in his false profession of Christ, was laughing about it.
But as the apostle prophesied, things would get worse until we had such as you, mockers who cause the heathen to blaspheme by their light and treacherous ways, making sport of the things of God:
“But you, my loved ones, keep in memory the words which were said before by the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, How they said to you, In the last days there will be men who, guided by their evil desires, will make sport of holy things” (Jude 1:17-18 BBE).
3/19/08 1:35 PM
Brother Slawson said…
I would like to officially “amen” the belief that murder is not funny.
3/19/08 2:05 PM
Lee Shelton IV said…
Paul and Victor, it sounds like you’re on a mission, seeking out Calvinist sites to condemn. If that is indeed your mission, you might at least want to read up a little on the subject. As C. H. Spurgeon said, Calvinism is but a nickname for the doctrines of grace found in scripture. It in no way implies that we idolize or follow John Calvin.
Besides, why would care? You believe that all men will be saved anyway. Saved from what? What danger am I in if I remain a Calvinist?
Smithadam, I’m assuming that you were referring to the actual post and not Paul and Victor’s comment. And yes, it’s from a satirical site — a very funny satirical site. You’ll want to check it out frequently.
Brother Slawson, I officially “amen” your “amen” that murder is not funny — unless, of course, we’re talking about squirrels. Those filthy creatures deserve to die.
3/19/08 7:45 PM
Brother Slawson said…
I can feel your pain with the squirrels. I had one or two that lived on the edge of my attic (above our bedroom) for about 2 years. I sold the house to my parents… and within a year…
::making motion of pointer finger passing in front of my neck::
3/19/08 9:10 PM
Lee Shelton IV said…
You lost both parents to squirrels?! I am so sorry.
3/19/08 10:00 PM
Brother Slawson said…
Well… that could be implied.
To be clear… not the parents… the squirrels…
3/20/08 6:46 AM
Arthur Sido said…
Lee, if you dare go check out the rest of their website. Apparently it is wicked and sinful for married couples to share a bed when sleeping, or even the same house. I immediately kicked my wife out to the barn when I read that.
3/20/08 8:42 AM
Lee Shelton IV said…
Yeah. The very thought that there are some sick, twisted married folks out there who don’t consider sex to be a “burdensome carnal policy” and are actually attracted to each other makes my skin crawl. Hey, if God had really wanted the relationship between man and wife to be intimate, he wouldn’t have given us the strict abstinence teachings in the Song of Solomon.
3/20/08 9:23 AM
Arthur Sido said…
Apparently what I learned in elementary school is true, girls DO have cooties.
3/20/08 4:12 PM
Paul Cohen said…
Lee, I will start with your last entry first. The writing Arthur brought to your attention doesn’t call sex a “burdensome carnal policy,” or anything remotely similar to that. Why don’t you guys first try reading what you criticize? How stupid it is to open your mouth when you don’t know what you’re talking about! How great an enmity you have for Truth, that you prefer to mock It rather than to carefully handle and know It!
Yet you claim to love Him. What liars!
On your first response to our writing you say, citing our confession of Christ’s totally efficacious sacrifice, that because everyone will come to know God, bowing the knee to, and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, you now can do whatever you please, such as following the false ways and teachings of murderers.
What a wicked fool you confess yourself to be, one who has no heart whatsoever for truth and righteousness! You surely need to fully experience the undesirable fruits of your ways, brought to you in the corrective wisdom and judgment of God, before you will ever come to the place of bowing your knee and confessing Him as Lord. Now all He can say of you is that He has never known you, regardless of your vain profession.
In your lightness you reveal your true colors, not that you or your companions will see them, because your very ways and attitudes blind you to Reality.
You use corrupt men, like Spurgeon, rather than Christ, as your measure of truth and godliness. Spurgeon was a religious fool, a verbose, bloated manpleaser and self-glorifier, who praised Augustine, the Maryolater, and Calvin, the murderer.
Here is some of his antiChrist nonsense, which you also claim as your own:
Spurgeon: “If the doctrine be true, that He [Jesus] died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins.”
And that is precisely what the Scriptures preach:
“For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water)” (1 Peter 3:18-20 MKJV).
Spurgeon continues in his self-important bombast:
“To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities.”
What confusion! The Word of God says that where sin has abounded, grace abounds more. What is the redemptive power of Christ all about, if not to deliver souls from Hell, whether in this life or the next? As for suffering for your sins, that happens to you whether you are a believer or not:
“But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, Who will render to each according to his works; indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life. But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew [believer] first, and also of the Greek [unbeliever]” (Romans 2:5-9 MKJV).
“No, each person will pay for his own sin. You eat green apples, you’re the one who gets sick” (Jeremiah 31:30 MSG).
“The soul that sins, it shall die…. But when the righteous turns from his righteousness and does injustice, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked do, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be remembered; in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20-24 MKJV).
You continue to reap the fruits of your sin even after you repent. If you plant a field of weeds, you may repent of planting, but the crop will still come up all the same. Yes, God will give the grace and power to those who walk in His righteousness to deal with it, now having Life in Him, but Spurgeon has no knowledge or profession of His Life manifesting godly wisdom in anything he says. It is all rhetorical flourishes and false piety based on a false “Christ.”
You say you do not follow John Calvin. Follow him or not, you justify and company with him. For this reason you are splitting hairs. Here is what Spurgeon said:
“I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace….”
As I pointed out in my paper, the fruits of Calvin show very clearly that he lacked moral restraint. His religion was lawless, with himself as the law that justified him to persecute and kill the saints of God. A man full of hate for God, not the love of God. Anything he taught came from a carnal, devilish nature, and not from Jesus Christ. Christ has no fellowship with sinners and devils.
The one walking in murderous hatred knows nothing of the grace of God. You possess nothing more than your mentors do, which is to say, nothing.
Arthur, does God not require more from you than juvenile remarks without substance or truth? Or have you only jumped out of the frying pan into the fire, a sinner now claiming the throne of God, with rights and privileges above Christ that entitle you to mock His brethren who speak sincerely and provide you with ample Scriptural evidence and reason for what they say?
Where did we say that women are to be treated as “cooties” and relegated to sleeping in the barn? Why do you make things up, entertaining yourself and those in darkness with such absurdities? What sin has brought you into such hostility with all that is decent and godly?
The Lord comes, only to find mockers in the last day, even as His servant Paul prophesied. These scoffers (light and vain persons – Judges 9:4) laugh and entertain one another with what they see as wit and clever humor, but the One Who died for them does not see things that way, any more than He laughed on the cross. If they were in His Spirit and His in them, they would be pious, sober, sincere, exhibiting not the vile spirit of mocking clowns and devils, but the Spirit of Christ. So, He has come down to see if these things are true, of which He has heard, and if so (and they are) He must visit their ways on them. Will we then see them laughing and scornful, as the people of Sodom?
“And it’s trouble ahead if you’re satisfied with yourself. Your self will not satisfy you for long. And it’s trouble ahead if you think life’s all fun and games. There’s suffering to be met, and you’re going to meet it. There’s trouble ahead when you live only for the approval of others, saying what flatters them, doing what indulges them. Popularity contests are not truth contests–look how many scoundrel preachers were approved by your ancestors! Your task is to be true, not popular” (Luke 6:25-26 MSG).
Do these people indeed think My speech is solely contained in a book, howbeit the Book I have written for My sons and daughters, and that I cannot speak as I please, when I please, to whom I please?
“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a fire pot; and all the proud, and every doer of wickedness, shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says the LORD of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them. But to you who fear My Name, the Sun of Righteousness shall arise, and healing will be on His wings. And you shall go out and frisk like calves of the stall. And you shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day which I am preparing, says the LORD of Hosts. Remember the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, the statutes and judgments. Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the sons, and the heart of the sons to their fathers, that I not come and strike the earth with utter destruction” (Malachi 4:1-6 MKJV).
“But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city” (Luke 10:12 MKJV).
3/22/08 1:19 PM
Arthur Sido said…
Boys, we mock that which is worthy of being mocked. For example (from your webpage, “The Marriage Bed Undefiled”):
Who says a man and a wife should share the same bed incessantly? Who says they should not have separate beds or rooms or even houses, and come together for relations only at appropriate times? Who says they should be disturbed every night by one another’s tossing and turning, pulling covers, snoring, bad breath, getting up for the bathroom, passing gas, and so forth? Who says they should be tempted with each other by being in the same bed when they may be called to abstinence for prayer and fasting for a time, or when the woman is at her time of the month? Who says a man and wife should play with fire? I have said who says, and will say it again, more specifically.
The horrors of bad breath and passing gas! If you are going to write silly stuff like that, you are going to be mocked. Like every false teacher who claims to be the only one around who can properly interpret God’s Word, you expose yourselves as charlatans and false prophets in the same lineage as Joseph Smith and David Koresh. Not only that, but if you publish the following on your webpage:
Christians have fallen for this ancient, burdensome carnal policy.
Then don’t cry foul when we reference it and then flat out lie about it like you did here: The writing Arthur brought to your attention does not call sex a “burdensome carnal policy,”
Why don’t you try reading your own diatribes before claiming to be aggrieved?
See, this is why I have comment moderation on my blog.
3/22/08 3:21 PM
Josh Gelatt said…
Oddly, you guys condemn those who follow Spurgeon & Calvin and claim that you, by contrast, only follow Christ.
Yet, you teach and preach. You distribute your teachings to others and try to get others to listen to you.
So…….are the people who are listening to you “following” you, or are they following Christ?
Certainly you would say that YOU, as opposed to Calvin, accurately teach Christ’s message. But therein lies the problem: it is YOU that is making that claim.
Having searched and studied the scriptures for many years, including much work in the original languages, I can honestly say I cannot think of a teacher more faithful to the message of Christ than John Calvin. Certainly not perfect, and he was a product of his times (as we are). His involvement with the execution of the heretic Severtus was indeed a black mark in his life (but look at the black marks in the life of Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, Peter, Thomas, etc). Some Biblical characters, like David, knew and repented of their sin. Others, like Jacob, never seemed to recognize their sin (and honestly, your ranting about this demonstrates you don’t even know the historical record of what occured. Calvin’s role was real, but it was also minor. The city council, who hated Calvin, condemned Severtus. Calvin did not. Calvin actually sought to provide a less painful death sentence, but the city council ignored Calvin and burned Severtus).
Is Calvin’s harsh action towards a known and universally condemned heretic so much different than the spirit of spiritual pride that you have exhibited in this forum?
Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.
3/22/08 4:12 PM
Paul Cohen said…
Arthur, you still cannot read properly. The burdensome policy is not sex, but to be forced by worldly conventions and notions to share a single bed with another adult all your married years. Obviously you cannot show that we say otherwise. So what is your problem? A one-track mind? Certainly something is decidedly wrong when you cannot make such simple distinctions.
You are defiling the marriage bed, because you worship it. As an idolater, everything you touch and do is unclean. I can see why you screen your blog, lest anyone shines some Light on your darkness. That is the perfectly Calvin thing to do.
And labeling others who offer practical advice, supported by Scripture, by comparing us to David Koresh and Joseph Smith, makes you sound like the cuckoo.
3/22/08 7:10 PM
Lee Shelton IV said…
So, Paul, if one finds inspiration in the “proverbs” posted on your site, will you accuse that person of following someone other than Christ? Or were those proverbs from God? And if so, does that mean they are on par with scripture?
3/22/08 7:35 PM
Paul Cohen said…
Josh, you are in error. We never said one should not follow true men of God. Have you red my testimony? In it I describe how the Lord sent Victor to me in Israel in 1979, whom I followed in obeying the Word of God that he spoke to me. That is how people are brought into obedience, by following the shepherds sent by the Shepherd.
“Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV).
You presume to have been a student of the Bible for many years, but do not know such an elementary thing?
We are not surprised, however, because that is the way it is for those who are ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ.
We do tell those who have ears to hear not to follow false prophets (wolves like Calvin and Spurgeon), just as the Lord Jesus and Paul the apostle warned. We are not alarmed or unaware that there are those like you who do not have ears to hear, because the Lord has told us that He sends His angels to gather the false Christians (tares), those things that offend and them that do iniquity, to be purged in His fires. How greatly needed are those!
The religious of His days in the flesh said the same thing to the Lord as you say to us, and here is how He answered them:
“If anyone desires to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God, or I speak from Myself” (John 7:17 MKJV).
So what that you know Greek and Hebrew? The Pharisees knew the language of the Bible, and they were well familiar with the texts, but they still crucified the Christ. You demonstrate the same confidence in your knowledge and the letter, which is not surprising because the children do carry the same traits as their fathers.
You confess rightly that you are a product of your times, being a child of this wicked world. The children of God are not of this world, as Jesus testified:
“And He said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world” (John 8:23 MKJV).
“I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world” (John 17:14 MKJV).
You are certainly right that you and Calvin are products of this world.
Your argument about the historical record reveals nothing I had not noted and answered in the writing. It is all a matter of public record. Just one statement from Calvin, years after the murder, blows away your protests of his innocence:
“Honor, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”
If Calvin was lying here, and had not condemned Servetus as you say, then he is still a murderer in addition to being a liar, because he condoned the murder of a human being, in this case a brother of the Lord, no less:
“David said to him, Your blood be on your head; for your mouth has testified against you, saying, I have slain the LORD’s anointed” (2 Samuel 1:16 HNV).
Jesus Christ foretold of people such as you:
“They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service. And they will do these things to you because they have not known the Father nor Me” (John 16:2-3 MKJV).
The blood of the saints is also on your hands. Of course you do not see or understand these things, and neither does Lee, because that is the nature of the children of darkness. But Christ knows where you are and where you stand:
“But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie” (Revelation 22:15 MKJV).
And now you have been told.
Lee, as for the proverbs, all inspired speaking is of God, if inspired of the Spirit of God, of course. And how would you know the difference between what is of God and what is not, if you are prepared to not only follow a wolf, but to kill for him?
3/23/08 11:16 AM
Lee Shelton IV said…
Paul, are you claiming that the writings on your site are inspired as the scriptures are inspired? What evidence do you have to support that? Are they as authoritative as the Bible? Pride and condescension seem to be typical of the writings on your site.
3/23/08 7:18 PM
Josh Gelatt said…
I am to understand that you believe Severtus is a true and faithful servant of Christ. You refer to him as a “brother of the Lord”.
As you are aware, Severtus denied the Trinity. If you count him a brother, then you have removed yourself from the historic faith, and my discussion with you is over (I will not waste my time with apostates). I hope I have misunderstood you, truly I do.
As Arthur stated, it is nice to be put in the same company as Calvin and Spurgeon–though I doubt I will receive nearly as many jewels in my crown as those faithful servants.
As for the accusation that I am a child of this wicked world, I completely agree. I am aware of my utter sinfulness. I am to be despised and rejected because I am utterly worthless before our glorious Lord. I am glad you so clearly see my unworth, for only then does the glory of God shine. To him alone be the glory.
3/23/08 8:06 PM
Arthur Sido said…
So I am defiling the marriage bed by sleeping in the same bed as my wife? Granted we do have 8 kids, I guess that is the product of my one-track mind. And I shouldn’t do this because…Victor says so?
Paul, listing Scripture after Scripture out of context is not supporting your case Scripturally, it just means you know how to copy and paste. Again, mormons quote Scriptures. David Koresh quoted Scripture. Jehovah’s Witnesses quaote Scripture. What you are unable to do is to let the Biblical record speak for itself as a whole, because like these other groups doing so destroys your positions. You claim that your writings are revealed by the Spirit of God: “Lee, as for the proverbs, all inspired speaking is of God, if inspired of the Spirit of God, of course. And how would you know the difference between what is of God and what is not, if you are prepared to not only follow a wolf, but to kill for him?”
Wow, a modern day prophet!
(Lee, who have you killed lately for Calvin?)
Let me ask you a simple question, does anyone teach anything other than error outside of your little group? Has any man (or woman) ever grasped any of the truth besides Victor and company (and maybe Servetus)? You have already labelled as false teachers men like Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, Bill Graham and Josh Gelatt (Josh, I will no longer be able to attend your church since you have been exposed for the wolf that you are) Has any other man in the two thousand year history of Christendom not been a false teacher? If so, can you name them?
And Paul, please feel free to leave comments on my blog, I will happily post them as I posted the comment from Ingrid.
3/24/08 1:20 PM
Paul Cohen said…
Lee, in answer to your question/accusation:
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10 MKJV).
How is it that you do not have the spirit of prophecy or the testimony of Jesus, since you profess Him?
“As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world….That they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one, I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that those whom You have given Me, that they may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me, for You have loved Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:18, 21-24 MKJV).
We have the fulfillment of Christ’s prayer to be one in Him and together with Him and each other. How come you do not have this?
We are flesh and blood as are any other prophets or servants of God:
“Elijah was a man of like passion as we are. And he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for the time of three years and six months” (James 5:17 MKJV).
Why do you look only on the weakness of the flesh, and not the power of the Lord?
“Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he” (Matthew 11:11 MKJV).
If we are born of God, now members of His Kingdom, we have something greater than Solomon because Christ is in us. Why should it be surprising to you that we can also say wise things, if He Who is made wisdom to us resides in us? The question is, why don’t you have the same Power, and why are you not writing proverbs and saying wise things, since you profess Christ?
The answer is because, as the murderer John Calvin, you are the seed of Cain, who offered sacrifices to God that were not acceptable and were rejected of Him because he, like you, sought his own glory.
The “historic faith” did not originate with Jesus Christ but with worshippers of the queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 44:17-25), such as Augustine and Constantine and other sun worshippers taking on the Name of Christ. These all represent and are one with and in Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots, Satan’s bride posing as Christ’s bride, even as your father comes as an angel of light and poses as a savior. Indeed, your historic faith goes all the way back to Nimrod and Semiramis and continues from there, dressing in sheep’s clothing not long after Christ’s day in the flesh.
(Jeremiah 44:17 BBE) But we will certainly do every word which has gone out of our mouths, burning perfumes to the queen of Heaven and draining out drink offerings to her as we did, we and our fathers and our kings and our rulers, in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then we had food enough and did well and saw no evil.
(Jeremiah 44:18 BBE) But from the time when we gave up burning perfumes to the queen of Heaven and draining out drink offerings to her, we have been in need of all things, and have been wasted by the sword and by need of food.
(Jeremiah 44:19 BBE) And the women said, When we were burning perfumes to the queen of Heaven and draining out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes in her image and give her our drink offerings without the knowledge of our husbands?
(Jeremiah 44:20 BBE) Then Jeremiah said to all the people, to the men and women and all the people who had given him that answer,
(Jeremiah 44:21 BBE) The perfumes which you have been burning in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers and your kings and your rulers and the people of the land, had the Lord no memory of them, and did He not keep them in mind?
(Jeremiah 44:22 BBE) And the Lord was no longer able to put up with the evil of your doings and the disgusting things you did; and because of this your land has become a waste and a cause of wonder and a curse, with no one living in it, as at this day.
(Jeremiah 44:23 BBE) Because you have been burning perfumes, and sinning against the Lord, and have not given ear to the voice of the Lord, or gone in the way of His Law or His rules or His orders; for this reason this evil has come on you, as it is today.
(Jeremiah 44:24 BBE) Further, Jeremiah said to all the people and all the women, Give ear to the Word of the Lord, all those of Judah who are living in Egypt:
(Jeremiah 44:25 BBE) This is what the Lord of armies, the God of Israel, has said: You women have said with your mouths, and with your hands you have done what you said, We will certainly give effect to the oaths we have made, to have perfumes burned to the queen of Heaven and drink offerings drained out to her: then give effect to your oaths and do them.
Church history is mainly the record of the false and not the true church. The false espouses the “orthodox faith” to which you refer and of which you and all serpents are members. Our Church is the Body of Christ and not the Bible-named slut you know to be your mother. You better believe we have removed ourselves from the “historic faith,” praise be to God, Who has given us the grace to obey Him, even as His Word commands:
“Wherefore come out from among them, and be separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6:17,18).
“Depart, depart, go out from there, touch no unclean thing; go out of the midst of her [Babylon]; be clean, you that bear the vessels of the Lord” (Isaiah 52:11).
“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues” (Revelation 18:4).
“I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked” (Psalms 26:5).
“Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men: in whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes” (Psalms 26:9).
You do remain in your sins, Josh, and there is no glory shining at all, believe it, certainly not God’s glory (You say you see, don’t you? Therefore your blindness remains). As He said to the Pharisees, so He still says to the children of the Pharisees:
“Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your Name, and through Your Name throw out demons, and through Your Name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!” (Matthew 7:21-23 MKJV)
This is “that day,” and we come, even as Enoch prophesied, with the Lord, to convince you, the ungodly, who blaspheme. You are finished. You have had your day. Now the Lord has His, and we are here to tell you so. Satan, you are finished, and we finish you.
“Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets, and decorate the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets; and you fill up the measure of your fathers. Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:28-33 MKJV)
Today, the Lord has spoken to you by us.
3/24/08 3:17 PM
Josh Gelatt said…
Paul, please know that I truly have compassion for you. It was the Pharisees of the New Testament that looked down on everyone else. They felt they, and they alone, had a “special” relationship with God. They became conceited, abusive, controlling, manipulative, and felt that God would only speak to them and through them.
It grieves me to see that you have come under the influence of such a heretical teaching. It grieves me even more to see your heart filled with hate, with no hint of compassion or love for your enemies (the mark of a true Christian).
I believe my earlier comments have been flippant towards you, and for this I apologize. It was wrong of me to mock you, and I ask for your forgiveness. However, I do have no further wish to entertain your apostasy from the apostolic faith. As such, this will be my last comment–despite whatever comment you may make in reply.
May you come to know the joy that is found in a genuine relationship with the joy-giving, love-producing, life-instilling, Christ-revealing, Triune God. By His grace, He has brought me into such a relationship, unworthy as I am. Perhaps if you turn to Him, we can discover the further beauty of this new life in Christ together.
3/24/08 4:44 PM
You told Lee, “why are you not writing proverbs and saying wise things, since you profess Christ?”
Yet in your own proverbs (#663), you write: “If one has love, he need not be concerned about having wisdom.”
Hmmmmmmm. What happened? Did God give you a contradictory message?
I really liked Proverb #569. “There is no reasoning with a fool; he is his own authority.” Describes you pretty well.
Your invading of this site is best summed up by Proverb 564. “First does the deceiver deceive himself, and then he proceeds to work his evil upon others.”
Your repeated accusations against others is dealt with in Proverb #287. “The sinner’s great contradiction is that she sees only the sins of others.”
Your rejection of the greatest figures in Church history is dealt with in Proverb # 265. “A fool despises authority, not considering it is provided for his safety.”
Your constant bragging of your own wisdom and prophetic abilities is best responded to with Proverb #253. “Are you pious and devout? Then why do you tell both men and God?”
The retort to your incessant rambling about yourself is found in Proverb #201. “He who claims his own virtue is void of it; the more he proclaims, the less of it he has.”
Your excessive quotation of scripture to attack the faith of others at this blog is dealt with in Proverb #184. “Fools gather knowledge, not to understand but to destroy.”
Your refusal to listen to other is summarized in Proverb #20. “A fool will not listen or he would not be a fool.”
And my personal favorite, which describes your ramblings perfectly, is Proverb #83. “Foolish words spoken are as passing gas.”
The fact that you will not listen to anything I have just said was foretold in Proverb #18. “As a dog defecates and urinates where it will, so sinners do as they please.”
3/24/08 5:14 PM
Brother Slawson said…
I have an extra watch if anyone wants it. I will reduce it to $9.95, more than a 20% discount.
3/24/08 8:05 PM
Arthur, many are the signs and fruits of a false prophet demonstrated in your behavior and complaints. Let me mention but a few.
Number one, you complain about what we posted on Lee’s website, but there is no substance justifying your condemnation. The Law of God calls for two or three witnesses. Your single opinion, no matter how many theologians you think or claim back you, is still just one witness. You call on others to condemn us whereas they have nothing to say to us and offer no evidence. That makes you a false accuser and lawbreaker.
Number two, your shock and disbelief that men such as Augustine, Spurgeon, and Calvin are false, because the Lord plainly said there would be many false prophets, who would deceive many (Matthew 24:11). You say that because many believe them they must be true. That reasoning is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord and His teaching. It is based on the might of man, not the Truth of God.
You claim that to be mentioned in the same breath as the “giant” Spurgeon means you must be doing something right. By the same reasoning, if I likened you to the pope you would be even “righter.”
The wisdom of God says:
“Those who forsake the Law praise the wicked, but those who keep the Law strive with them” (Proverbs 28:4 LITV).
Number three, you act as if it is sacrilege to publicly identify false prophets. The apostles regularly did so. You are a hypocrite because you call us false while doing the very same thing as we do, only in your case you have no substance.
Number four, you originally complained because I responded to your ridicule of a paper on our site, which complaint on your part was entirely childish and evil. You dismissed us as false teachers based on your conclusion that teaching Christian husbands and wives that they are under no obligation to sleep in the same bed means we cannot be servants of the Lord.
Even if what we say is not true, you have no valid reason for your approach. Paul did not dismiss Peter as a servant of God when Peter got carried away with the Jewish legalists, but corrected him. Where is your correction? There is none, just a derisory dismissal with juvenile jesting, “I immediately kicked my wife out to the barn,” and “girls DO have cooties.” Of course there would be no correction coming from you, because, unlike Paul, you are not a brother to the brethren. You are their accuser.
You read things into what was written, and leave things out that are. You condemn what you have made up, and bundle the Substance, along with us, to be burned in the eternal flames of Hell you so dearly love.
Yet this writing in particular has shown how, by the Scriptures, men of God did not sleep with their wives all the time, or as the rule. And certainly, in order to keep the Law of God, men and women had to keep separate bedding.
But as a true son of Belial, you mock and scoff at God’s way and order. You are twice the child of hell, because born, not only of the treasure-seeking, lying scoundrel Joseph Smith, but now also of the lying murderer John Calvin. We are opposed here by a legion of religious devils. That is no problem for the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore no problem for us. In fact it is the wonderful opportunity He has provided for us to defeat them all in His Name.
Number five, we have not dismissed anyone as a brother or sister in the Lord over the matter of sharing a bed with his or her spouse. We have taught a better way. The paper we wrote is for those who seek the Lord, who find themselves under bondage and could fare much better by employing the answer the Lord has given us. But, though we speak the truth, we do not compel. The Lord has come to bring us life, not more bondage.
You are the one compelling, the tyrant that ridicules brothers of the Lord and denies others the opportunity for the great blessings that come by believing and walking in the truth. You are the one found to be straining out gnats while swallowing camels, belching up noxious gas that makes the saints in Heaven wretch.
Number six, you accuse us of demanding people walk in “lockstep” with our teachings or we cast their names out as false. That is not true. We present the teachings and criteria of the Lord Jesus Christ and declare His judgments, which are not hidden from us or meant to be obscured from men, which is the work of religious frauds like you, as you prove here.
The True Marks of a Cult presents God’s ways that He requires and commands of His people, as given in the Holy Scriptures. In there you will find that your specific accusation of us as a cult also condemns the Lord Jesus Christ, Who warned that He came to divide. You will also find many other things in which you are wrong, and you will not be able to deny or admit your wrongness in a single one of them.
And what is wrong with walking in lockstep, anyway? You are constantly condemning the holy things of God, calling them foul, and calling foul things holy. By Him indeed, the saints do walk together in lockstep:
“They shall run like mighty ones. They shall climb the wall like men of war, and they shall march each one on his way, and they shall not break their ranks” (Joel 2:7 MKJV).
So now, go read and see for yourself how you and your theologians stack up to God’s measure. Telling us they are all right and you are right because they are is no different than a dog chasing its tail telling us it has caught its quarry. Even if it actually did, what has it got in its mouth? So what if you caught your own tail?
3/25/08 11:55 AM
Paul Cohen said…
Josh, you don’t know what you are talking about and therefore are not making any sense. How is it you ask for forgiveness, but say you will not talk to me any longer, even if I forgive you? What kind of Christian thing is that to do? Don’t tell me that you are justified because we are apostates. You have no evidence of that whatsoever. We have not deserted Christ and you know it. Listen to me for a minute.
When I first began to believe, God revealed Jesus Christ to me as the Messiah. As a Jew, I had very little exposure to the New Testament, or Christian doctrines, in whatever form. I began to read the New Testament and knew it was true. God opened my understanding. I had no concept of Him being a “trinity,” yet I began to understand that Christ had died for my sins, and that He was what everything was all about. One day a neighbor asked me about my new beliefs, and, he also being a Jew, asked me Who Jesus Christ was. My answer, which was a realization for me, was, “He is God.”
Over time I repented of my sins, and recognized my total dependence on His grace and mercy. Is this not an authentic conversion experience? Who but God can turn a man from his sins to forsake all things to follow Him? Who can come to Christ except the Father draws him?
Still, I heard no word from God on the “trinity.” I never conceived of Him as different entities because there was never more than one God Who spoke to me, informed me, and led me in all these years since I first believed (30 years). There were not three gods that appeared or revealed themselves to me. You yourself say that there are not three different gods, correct? So why are you rejecting me based on your theoretical understanding of a matter?
Do you mean to tell me that you believe Christ would have you reject me, the One Whose blood has cleansed me from all sin, and upon Whom I trust, with no other resources to keep me, because I do not believe in your “trinity”? The Scriptures say that whosoever calls on the Name of the Lord (not the trinity), will be saved. Jesus said that whoever came to Him (not the trinity), He would in no wise cast out. Who are you to cast out whom He receives and keeps? Do you not see your treachery?
Perhaps you misunderstand or have not red the paper that has started this conversation, but I do not reject John Calvin as a man of God because he teaches the trinity. I made it very clear up front that we all have been told by the Lord to know them by their fruits. That is how we have judged Calvin.
Our judgment against Calvin is airtight against the charge that he has been judged by his doctrines. After the murder of Servetus, which Calvin undertook, using doctrinal positions as justification, accusing Servetus of blasphemy, Sebastian Castellion came forward and proved that regardless of what Servetus or Calvin believed, Calvin was in the wrong to persecute and murder Servetus. Castellion did not argue doctrine, but, by using Scripture and reason, proved how ungodly Calvin’s behavior was. The fruits were examined and found wanting.
And just like Cain who was confronted by the Truth on his rotten attitude, Calvin’s behavior only got worse. Rather than confessing his sins and repenting, he continued, in his mad rage, to persecute Castellion and to justify his murder of Servetus, even boasting of it to others. He saw to it that Castellion lost his job and his life, but Castellion had not testified against Calvin’s wickedness in vain. No, not at all. You and the mocking mob gathered here are not burning me at the stake today, or beheading me, because men of God stood against the tyranny of bullies and conniving murderers like Calvin and shed their blood by their testimony of Christ. You have inherited the freedom you have to profess your beliefs without fear of the Catholic and other churches persecuting you by the testimony of these saints. Abusing us and them, your freedom will certainly be taken away, just as the Lord illustrated in His parable (Luke 20).
In testifying of the true God and Christ, Servetus and Castellion also testified against the antiChrist, which literally means, the one sitting in the place of Christ. Calvin and all religious who resist the Holy Spirit manifest this antiChrist spirit, evident in their persecutions and murders.
So, while Calvin was certainly a “damned good churchman,” he was not a Christian. Christians do not manifest the fruits of Cain, killing their brothers.
That is the company you keep, Josh, and no matter how gentle and “Christian” you make yourself to appear, that is what lies within you and is not being dealt with by the process of salvation that occurs for those who come out from among them to join the Lord without the camp.
3/25/08 2:42 PM
Paul Cohen said…
Anonymous, you say that we will not listen to you, but what exactly are you telling us? You make accusations based on conjectures and subjective feelings. There is nothing substantive here for us to consider. Let me show you.
You begin by asking us if God has given us a contradictory message, because Victor writes that if one has love one need not be concerned about having wisdom.
There is no contradiction here at all. The reason the one who has love need not be concerned is because if he has love he has all that he needs from God, wisdom included. The one walking in the love of God has nothing to fear. That is the perfect wisdom of God in operation. God is love; He is also our wisdom.
You write: “I really liked Proverb #569. ‘There is no reasoning with a fool; he is his own authority.‘ Describes you pretty well.”
So you say. But have I not just reasoned with you? Will you listen? If so, will you apologize for your hasty and false accusation? If not, does this not describe you?
You claim: “Your invading of this site is best summed up by Proverb 564. ‘First does the deceiver deceive himself, and then he proceeds to work his evil upon others.‘”
That is your opinion. No one has shown us that the things we have written in the paper about John Calvin are untrue. In what, then, are we deceived? You don’t say. If you cannot say, how can you conclude that what we preach is evil? How can we?
You continue: “Your repeated accusations against others is dealt with in Proverb #287. ‘The sinner’s great contradiction is that she sees only the sins of others.‘”
Surely you could take any proverb of Solomon’s, and say it condemns us. Any irresponsible fool can do that. What requires wisdom is to apply the Word of God correctly and lawfully. Now tell us what sins we have pointed out that do not exist, and what sins we are guilty of that we have not confessed. Use the definition in the Scriptures of sin, and not your own foregone conclusions. Otherwise, as with all these attributions, they are just careless, empty words.
Perhaps you are telling us that our sin is to speak against the “greatest figures in Church history”: “Your rejection of the greatest figures in Church history is dealt with in Proverb # 265. ‘A fool despises authority, not considering it is provided for his safety.‘”
Did Calvin provide safety for Castellion? Did Castellion despise authority, or did he have legitimate questions and points to make? Can you tell the difference? By your measure, the apostles were rightly beaten and persecuted for not respecting the wishes of the religious authorities of their day. By your judgment, Luther and Calvin were wrong for resisting the authority of the Roman Church. So do you also justify the murderers of Christ, Who did not play it safe with the authorities of His day, but gave witness to the Authority of authorities. This wisdom is too high for a fool.
You accuse us of bragging about our own wisdom and virtue. That is an obvious lie, which means, of course, that you do not provide any examples because there are none. You cannot tell the difference between those that speak the truth in Christ, because their confidence is in Him, and those that speak of themselves, because they trust in themselves. You are among the latter, who are blind because they reject the Light of all men in preference to themselves and their chosen religious ways. You serve the prince of darkness, who is the accuser of the brethren.
That is the entire nature of your posting. And in keeping with the darkness in which you come, you accuse anonymously.
Did you not know that your great figures in Church history are defenders or reformers of the Catholic Church – she of the Inquisition, where anonymous accusers flourished?
666. As jackals and hyenas linger in the background for a safe time to attack and feed, so false accusers keep hidden their faces for fear of exposure and defeat.
So you are now the inspiration of number 666. Interesting. [Since this posting, an error was found wherein the numbers of our proverbs was off by a hundred. What was then #666 is now #566.]
It is evident to those with eyes to see that you do not post to give, to teach good, and to worship and glorify God, but you post to entertain men and vaunt yourself. Do you really think to show yourself clever? Perhaps to other fools, but what are they that they should be impressed? An ignorant child can make dogs jump for biscuits too.
How then can you possibly appreciate the bouquet of Truth, when you live by the noxious fumes of liars and fools?
“Because of Christ, we give off a sweet scent rising to God, which is recognized by those on the way of salvation–an aroma redolent with life. But those on the way to destruction treat us more like the stench from a rotting corpse” (2 Corinthians 2:15-16 MSG).
I do not defecate and urinate on your words, as you claimed I would, but have soundly answered them with words of Truth. Only to you is it human refuse, and for this reason you perish:
“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink; that justify the wicked for a reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as the chaff is consumed in the flame, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust; because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and contemned the word of the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 5:20-24 JPS).
As the wise man said:
“The words of a wise man’s mouth are gracious; but a fool is swallowed by his own lips” (Ecclesiastes 10:12 HNV).
3/25/08 2:47 PM
Paul Cohen said…
No need for watches around here; time’s up.
3/25/08 2:49 PM
Arthur Sido said…
Paul, I responded back to you on my blog. I won’t waste anymore of Lee’s blog space responding to your sanctimonious slander. I should probably follow Josh’s example and just let it go, but cult leaders stick in my craw and I can’t ignore false teachers.
(Not that Josh is ignoring false teachers, just that he recognizes that when you get in the mud to wrestle you end up getting dirty)
3/25/08 7:37 PM
Lee Shelton IV said…
Paul, you and other followers of Victor can post here. Anything else you post on this particular thread will be deleted.
3/25/08 7:52 PM