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“Are You He that Troubles Israel?”

 

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34).

We received the following response to God Heals Today, His Way, formerly called “Divine Healing”:

To Whom It May Concern:

You know, I went to that sight that you suggested that I read, and you had some very good points about divine healing, but I got turned off and a red flag went up when you started cutting other ministers down just to promote your point. Christians should never judge like that, because you don’t know any of those people personally. Therefore, my suggestion is that if you really want to reach people, you should stop belittling other ministers in order to do so. Give a simple teaching and let people decide for themselves. People would appreciate that more and they would learn better. Wouldn’t that be a better way? Just my 2 cents worth….

Betty

Victor’s reply:

Betty, let us consider your comments and point of view. You write:

I got turned off and a red flag went up when you started cutting other ministers down just to promote your point.

I realize people use their words loosely, and you certainly do as well, but we will correct you anyway. We did not cut anyone down “just to promote [our] point.” Our point needed no such support, and is not proven that way. Our point was that divine healing is available, but not where people are told it is available. I have no doubt whatsoever that if you had (or have) a loving husband and he told you to buy a toaster, knowing what was good and bad on the market, he would tell you what to buy, where to buy it and where not to buy it if knowing that a certain popular brand was a fire hazard. Is that not so? Now, if he knew of the defective one, and had not told you, and you went out and bought the defective one and burned the house down using it, he might say, “Why did you buy that one? I knew it was a fire hazard!” and you would have replied, “I didn’t know! If you knew, why didn’t you tell me?” Is that not so?

If you are right that we should not cut others down, as you put it, then you need to criticize the following:

John: “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the pre-eminence among them, did not receive us” (3 John 1:9).

Paul: “Alexander the coppersmith showed many evil things to me. The Lord will give back to him according to his works” (2 Timothy 4:14).

Paul even criticized another apostle, how much more false ministers?:

Paul: “But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed” (Galatians 2:11).

And what about Jesus?: “And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6).

Speaking of “cutting down” other ministers: If you had “a red flag go up” when I simply wrote critically of others, what would you have done with Elijah? The record for your convenience:

1 Kings 18:17-40
(17) And it happened when Ahab saw Elijah, Ahab said to him, Are you he that troubles Israel?
(18) And he answered, I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father’s house have, in that you have forsaken the commandments of Jehovah, and you have followed the Baals.
(19) And now send and gather to me all Israel to mount Carmel, and four hundred and fifty of the prophets of Baal, and four hundred of the prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.
(20) And Ahab sent to all the sons of Israel, and gathered the prophets together to mount Carmel.
(21) And Elijah came to all the people and said, How long are you limping over two opinions? If Jehovah is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, then follow him. And the people did not answer him a word.
(22) And Elijah said to the people, I, I alone, remain a prophet of Jehovah. But Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
(23) And let them give us two bulls, and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces and lay it on wood. But place no fire. And I will dress the other bull and lay it on wood, and place no fire.
(24) And you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of Jehovah. And it shall be, the God that answers by fire, He is God. And all the people answered and said, The word is good.
(25) And Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, Choose one bull for yourselves, and prepare first, for you are many. And call on the name of your god, but place no fire.
(26) And they took the bull which was given them, and they dressed, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any who answered. And they leaped on the altar which was made.
(27) And it happened at noon Elijah mocked them and said, Cry with a great voice, for he is a god. Either he is meditating, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey; perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened!
(28) And they cried with a loud voice and cut themselves with knives and spears until the blood gushed out on them, as is their way.
(29) And it happened when midday was past, and when they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor anyone who paid attention.
(30) And Elijah said to all the people, Come near to me. And all the people came near him. And he repaired the broken down altar of Jehovah.
(31) And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the Word of Jehovah came, saying, Israel shall be your name.
(32) And with stones he built an altar in the Name of Jehovah. And he made a trench around the altar big enough to contain two measures of seed.
(33) And he arranged the wood, and cut the bull in pieces, and placed it on the wood, and said, Fill four water jars with water and pour on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.
(34) And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
(35) And the water ran all around the altar. And he filled the trench also with water.
(36) And it happened at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel, and that I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your Word.
(37) Hear me, O Jehovah, hear me, that this people may know that You are Jehovah God, and that You have turned their heart back again.
(38) And the fire of Jehovah fell and burned up the burnt sacrifice and the wood, and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(39) And when all the people saw, they fell on their faces. And they said, Jehovah, He is the God! Jehovah, He is the God!
(40) And Elijah said to them, Take the prophets of Baal. Do not let one of them escape. And they took them. And Elijah brought them down to the torrent Kishon and killed them there.

You say, “Give a simple teaching and let people decide for themselves.Elijah said to the people, “How long are you limping over two opinions? If Jehovah is God, follow Him. But if Baal is God, then follow him.” He then gave them a “criticism” of false prophets they would never forget, and that by the direction and blessing of God.

Solemnly, I tell you, it appears that, but by the grace of God, you would have stood with Jezebel, saying, “Give it to him! He deserves it!” as was her reaction when hearing of Elijah’s doing:

“And Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done, and all that he killed, all the prophets with the sword. And Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life like the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time” (1 Kings 19:1-2).

You say: “People would appreciate that more [not ‘cutting other ministers down’] and they would learn better.

In your words, you, in effect, are saying to us, as did Ahab, the most wicked king of Israel, to Elijah, “Are you he that troubles Israel?” Tell me, would the people of Elijah’s day have appreciated it more had Elijah let those prophets of Baal continue in their evils? Did the Israelites get offended with Elijah for killing the prophets of Baal, or did they humble themselves in godly fear, saying, “Jehovah, He is the God! Jehovah, He is the God!”

Compare your reaction to that of the people on the one hand, and that of Jezebel on the other, and see where you stand. In defending those we know to be liars and thieves, who misrepresent Jesus Christ, are you not the one troubling Israel (believers), by saying people would appreciate our permitting these guys to “live”?

What would you have done with Jehu? Read how he “cut down other ministers to promote his point.”

2 Kings 10:18-28
(18) And Jehu gathered all the people together, and said to them, Ahab served Baal a little, but Jehu shall serve him much.
(19) And now call to me all the prophets of Baal, all his servants and all his priests. Let no one be lacking. For I have a great sacrifice to Baal. Whoever shall be lacking, he shall not live. But Jehu was acting with cunning, to the end that he might destroy the worshipers of Baal.
(20) And Jehu said, Call a solemn feast for Baal. And they called it.
(21) And Jehu sent through all Israel. And all the worshipers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left who did not come. And they came into the house of Baal. And the house of Baal was full from one end to another.
(22) And he said to him who was over the robe-room, Bring out robes for all the worshipers of Baal. And he brought them out for them.
(23) And Jehu went, and Jehonadab the son of Rechab, into the house of Baal. And he said to the servants of Baal, Search and look, that there may not be here with you any of the servants of Jehovah, but only the servants of Baal.
(24) And they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. And Jehu had appointed eighty men outside, and said, If any of the men whom I have brought into your hands escapes, his life shall be for the life of him.
(25) And it happened when he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, Jehu said to the guard and to the commanders, Go in. Kill them! Do not let any come out! And they struck them with the edge of the sword. And the guard and the commanders threw them out. And they went to the city, to the house of Baal.
(26) And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal and burned them.
(27) And they broke down the image of Baal, and broke down the house of Baal and made it a sewer-house until this day.
(28) And Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.

You write: “Christians should never judge like that, because you don’t know any of those people personally.

Tell me, Betty, did Elijah know the 450 prophets of Baal personally? Did Jehu know all the prophets of Baal in Israel personally?

Furthermore, you accuse us of judging, but what are you doing? How do you know if we do not know these men personally? As it so happens, we do indeed know them. Did you know that? No, yet you judge. Do you not therefore speak presumptuously and foolishly?

Where did you get the foolish notion that Christians should never judge? While it is true that they are never to judge after the appearance (which is what you are doing), they are to judge righteous judgment (something you are entirely incapable of doing, not knowing the Lord):

“Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

Jehu not only slew the “ministers,” but he also did it with deception. You, in your self-righteousness, would have condemned him for that as well. Is that not so, Betty?

Now granted, there may be a certain objection from you. You may say, “Those whom Elijah and Jehu slew were false, not true ministers of God.” You would say that, as you do, only because you do not know the difference between a false minister and a true one. Jesus said we can and must know:

“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them” (John 10:8).

Paul said this of false ministers:

“For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

Our lives depend upon knowing them by their fruits. A serious question: Why do you not know them? You are defending scumbags, Betty…servants of Satan. Get behind me, Satan; you are an offence to us, because you savor the things of men, not of God.

There can be only one of two reasons why you would stand up in defense of wolves: You do not know they are wolves (you trust their “garments”), or you are a wolf yourself. In either case, of you did Jesus say:

“He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters” (Luke 11:23).

You have given your “2 cents worth,” and in return I have given you that which is of inestimable worth, far beyond the price of rubies or gold, as the Scriptures declare. The question is: How long will you halt between two opinions, if indeed you are not entirely given over to Baal worship so prevalent today among ignorant, idolatrous, and naïve nominal Christians? Will God grant you the grace to humble and despise yourself, repent and believe, as He did with Job?:

After Elihu and God finished rebuking him, Job confessed, “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye has seen You. Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:5-6).

I would hope so; therefore I write. More and more, Betty, we are learning not to be as nice as false ministers often are, but to be real as we ought to be in serving the Real Jesus Christ. Read The True Marks of a Cult, Counterfeit Christianity and Diabolical Doctrines.

Contending earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints, knowing whereof we speak in and by Him,

Victor

Betty’s reply:

Dear Victor,

Thank you for your commentary. I do already believe in walking in total divine health and divine healing if one is sick. I have not seen a medical doc since I was saved in 1984. Not only so, but my whole family operate in the gifts of the Spirit that God has given us. His presence is obvious with us and my house is full of God’s peace and joy and have been for years and years.

I appreciate your response, but your view of things seem to be greatly influenced by a lack of understanding concerning what Jesus has already done for us. My salvation came when I realized that I couldn’t keep the law and I can’t save myself. We have our confidence firmly grounded in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. It is finished. We have to rest in that.

Luv
bj

Paul’s reply:

Betty, Paul here.

Whether intentional or not, you have completely ignored the purpose of Victor’s letter and the points he made, which were for your sake. If you prepared me a beautiful dinner with dessert, and I shoveled it into the trash can, what would you think if I told you I appreciated it? Yet you do the same thing here. Either you are a bald-faced liar, or you are living in total unreality and, therefore, lie naturally in all you think, say, and do. Surely it is the latter, if not the former as well. You are full of unreal religion. Little do you know that this is the path of the destroyer, but you will. Now you have heard the truth.

What do you think to accomplish by telling us that you have confidence in the finished work of Christ? Are we to take your word for it? “Let God be true and every man a liar.” You have amply shown that you have no use for Scripture, yet it still needs to be shown how greatly you contradict His record by your words and ways. Your fruits tell a different story from what you think and claim to have. You write:

My salvation came when I realized that I couldn’t keep the law and I can’t save myself. We have our confidence firmly grounded in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. It is finished. We have to rest in that.

Did you know that, as good as this piece of religious philosophy might sound to the ignorant, it is not Scriptural or true? You have a false confidence and salvation, which is no salvation at all. It is not enough to declare yourself inadequate; you must enter into His adequacy. You say you have faith, but there are no works of faith to prove your claim.

“What does it profit, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Is that kind of faith able to save him?” (James 2:14 EMTV)

What kind of works are the works of faith?

“And calling near the crowd with His disciples, He said to them, Whoever will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever will save his life shall lose it; but whoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel’s, he shall save it” (Mark 8:34-35).

You may admire and believe in “the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ,” but you have not taken up your cross to follow Him, which is the only way to be saved. If you were crucified with Christ, Betty, you would also identify with the works of Christ, such as Victor wrote about, and such as those we perform in His Name. It is not enough to believe and confess there is one God and Savior. So do devils, false prophets, and Satan. You do not confess Him coming in the flesh (His Presence in those whom He sends), and therefore you do not receive Him or His power to save you.

You have words, but not the works of faith. You do not walk as do His saints and servants, who love His judgments. You call flowing with the worldly religious and wicked, “resting in God.” You have been snared by “another gospel,” and therefore you err:

“For if, indeed, the one coming proclaims another Jesus, whom we have not proclaimed, or if you receive another spirit, which you did not receive, or another gospel, which you never accepted, you might well endure these” (2 Corinthians 11:4).

“I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him Who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel” (Galatians 1:6).

In your case it is not a matter of moving away from Him, but of having been born of another gospel and preferring it to the true one, which we now preach to you in Christ.

Paul the apostle did not rest as you count rest, but rather testified of what truly resting in Christ is all about, when he said:

“If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!'” (1 Corinthians 15:32 EMTV)

You seek to “eat and drink,” accruing the benefits of the work of Christ without paying the price of the cross and identification with Him in this world. The saints have paid for these benefits with their blood, that you might do the same and have life. You fault us for “fighting with beasts” in His Name. You bring shame to Jesus Christ and the sacrifice made in His Holy Name. Truly, He does not know you, no matter how many great and wonderful works and things you think to have had. You dishonor and disgrace Him by your light words and attitude, which are a grievous insult to Heaven. “Depart from Me,” He says to you, “worker of lawlessness.”

To those who mourn and are repentant of their sins, and are vexed by the vain and self-serving professors of Christ and their unrighteous works that defile the wonderful Name of God, the Lord Jesus Christ comes to do justice, and will wipe away every tear. But to those such as yourself, who say, “I sit as a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow,” it is written:

“On account of this her plagues will come in one day–death, sorrow, and famine. And she shall be burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God Who has judged her” (Revelation 18:8 EMTV).

And:

“Sorrow to her who is uncontrolled and unclean, the cruel town! She gave no attention to the voice, she had no use for teaching, she put no faith in the Lord, she did not come near to her God. Her rulers are like loud-voiced lions in her; her judges are wolves of the evening, crushing up the bones before the morning. Her prophets are good-for-nothing persons, full of deceit: her priests have made the holy place unclean and have gone violently against the law. The Lord in her is upright; He will not do evil; every morning He lets His righteousness be seen, He is unchanging; but the evil-doer has no sense of shame” (Zephaniah 3:1-5 BBE).

Betty, the floods come and will show on what kind of foundation you have built. Then will the time come when you will be ashamed, by the grace of God, in which we have spoken to you, but you do not recognize the day of your visitation.

Paul

Betty’s response:

James 4:11
[My] brethren, do not speak evil about or accuse one another. He that maligns a brother or judges his brother is maligning and criticizing the Law and judging the Law. But if you judge the Law, you are not a practicer of the Law but a censor and judge [of it].

Paul’s reply:

Betty, we are not speaking evil of you. We merely describe you and your actions, which, because you reject the description, preferring to maintain your sins, you call evil. If we speak evil of you, then Jesus spoke evil of the Pharisees and you will have to fault Him with us by your erroneous interpretation of James’ words. That also goes for John the Baptist who addressed the multitudes with these words:

“Then he said to the crowd that came forth to be baptized by him, O generation of vipers! Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” (Luke 3:7)

You are the one who is maligning and criticizing the Law, which is the Standard that judges you. You are found to be unrighteously judging us, as those who uphold the Law.

Also, inasmuch as you do not receive godly correction, you prove that you are not a sister of Christ. We could not possibly be maligning a brother in this case since you are not one:

“But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons” (Hebrews 12:8).

Here is what you missed from James, which is what needs to happen to you:

“Be troubled, with sorrow and weeping; let your laughing be turned to sorrow and your joy to grief” (James 4:9 BBE).

I do not need to enlarge my text. The Word of God does not miss His mark.

Paul

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