An Atheist Tempts God
Paul sent this note:
Ronald Weinland of “The Church of God – Preparing for the
Kingdom of God” has predicted a nuclear explosion in the United
States by July 16th, 2008; or, if this doesn’t happen, he will
declare himself a false prophet. You may already know or suspect that
he is a false prophet, but keep in mind that the fruit does not fall
far from the tree. Weinland was spawned by another false prophet, Herbert
W. Armstrong. In this writing we will show you how and why these men,
while espousing some true doctrines, lead many in error.
Ronald Weinland – Son
of Armstrong
Paul Cohen
Robert’s reply:
“The Path of Truth.” Heh. You’d think after exposing
so many false prophets you’d have a little more humility.
Robert
Victor’s reply:
Robert,
Elijah slew 450 prophets, “solid citizens” and respected
men of society right up to royalty, just like Herbert W. Armstrong.
Elijah was only one against so many, besides priests of Ashtoreth.
We are few against many. We know Elijah’s humility.
Humility? What is humility? Do you know, Robert? What does one who
discredits his Maker (the Author and Promoter of humility), because
of being deceived by a prophet of Baal, know about humility?
But know that those 450 prophets slew many spiritually before Elijah
put them away. You are a casualty of a prophet of Baal.
Victor Hafichuk
Robert’s reply:
“Humility? What is humility? Do you know,
Robert? What does one who discredits his Maker (the Author and Promoter
of humility), because
of being deceived by a prophet of Baal, know about humility?”
Yes. Humility is: “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Robert
Victor’s reply:
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” Robert,
presumably this means recognizing oneself to be guilty of sin. So what
does that mean; or how does it apply to me? Read Does
God Speak Only Gentle Words?, and tell me how you apply your understanding to the examples
in the writing, including that of the One you quote. I’d like to
know.
It is interesting that while you call yourself an atheist, you quote
Jesus Christ, Who testified of His Father. The problem is that, as
Jesus said, when you deny the Father, you deny the Son and vice versa.
Why then would you quote those words? And when you quote them, do you
know what their meaning is? Read that article, and let me know.
One who denies God denies himself, as one made by God. He spirals downward
to abject darkness and leaves nothing for himself. He ends up without
understanding altogether. As Solomon said:
“Respect and obey the LORD! This is the beginning of knowledge.
Only a fool rejects wisdom and good advice” (Proverbs 1:7 CEV).
You quote Jesus? I will quote Him:
“The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy.
I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly. I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down
His life for the sheep” (John 10:10-11 MKJV).
Why let the thief take it all and bring you to nothing by his false
apostles? Why not believe God? Why not accept culpability for your deception,
disillusionment, and woes, and receive the Truth? This is not about Armstrong
or Weinland or Meredith or Tkach; it is about you.
Where there is counterfeit, there is the real – many counterfeits
but one True. Another paper you could read is Victims
and Perpetrators.
We have all been victims, but more importantly, we must see ourselves
not as victims, but as perpetrators. Jesus came to save perpetrators,
those who sin, and not victims, those sinned against. Did you ever think
of that?
Paul the apostle put it this way:
“Faithful is this word, and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. However,
because of this I was shown mercy, so that in me first Jesus Christ might
show forth all longsuffering, as a pattern for those who are going to
believe on Him for everlasting life” (1 Timothy 1:15-16 EMTV).
Armstrong was very good at playing the victim and teaching his followers
to see things that way. “That dark, dirty world. They are all wrong!
You have been duped! Follow me! I’m it!” He preached Law
and repentance of breaking It, yes, and that is fine, but his motive
for preaching was to draw to himself. He used some truth to get what
he wanted. That is how Satan works. Read The
Lovely Essence of Satan and The
Nature of Deception.
Yes, we have been exposing and reproving the works of darkness, which
God has instructed us, and others before us, to do. Have you considered
that maybe, just maybe, there is a difference between what we are saying
and doing and what Armstrong has been all about? (We know there is a
night and day difference, but this is something you must know for yourself;
you can only know this by God’s grace – we did not figure
these things out for ourselves.)
To one of the prophets, He said:
“Cry aloud, do not spare, lift up your voice like a ram’s
horn, and show My people their rebellion, and the house of Jacob their
sins” (Isaiah 58:1 MKJV).
Is that “casting stones,” Robert? I believe you know it
isn’t. You know what? You are not an atheist, are you? You have
been used, abused, and disillusioned; you are bitter, but you are not
an atheist. I even suspect that you have some yearning for someone to
give you reason enough to persuade you to try again. You try to cast
words my way, but you are not fighting as an atheist could, as foolish
as an atheist can be. I think you know better. You are not as much of
a fool as you claim to be (Psalm 14:1). You have suffered the consequences
of the young man in Proverbs 7. Nevertheless, there is hope because Jesus
Christ is the Resurrection and the Life. We know this because He has
revealed Himself to us. He never revealed Himself to HWA or any of his
followers. Had they known the Light of the world, they would not have
heard the voice of a stranger. You heard the voice of a stranger and
got burned. But I tell you, there is hope, and a sure one at that.
“Right now I call the sky and the earth to be witnesses that I
am offering you this choice. Will you choose for the LORD to make you
prosperous and give you a long life? Or will He put you under a curse
and kill you? Choose life!” (Deuteronomy 30:19 CEV).
You may also read The Purpose
of Evil. I hope I have not given you too
much, but if you have a heart at all for what is right and good and true,
and will not allow a false prophet to victimize you, you will acknowledge
yourself a perpetrator no better than he, as I have had to do, and then
you will see God work on your behalf rather than against you.
When He is against you, you can’t win; when He is for you, you
can’t lose. That’s the way it is, always, without fail.
Victor
Robert’s reply:
“‘Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.’ Robert,
presumably this means recognizing oneself to be guilty of sin.”
No. To you it means recognizing oneself to be guilty of sin. The Bible
you say you believe says you are guilty of sin. Therefore, you should
not be condemning others (“casting stones.”)
I, on the other hand, find the Bible to be not the work of a deity but
of men, so I am only held to the things in it I find wise. I do not believe
in your God, so I also do not believe in your concept of sin. In fact,
I find it to be both laughable and repugnant. And I understand that scripture
differently. Here is my own paraphrase: “In all situations (but
particularly negative ones) humbly acknowledge your contribution. Blaming
others is unconstructive.”
“So what does that mean or how does it apply
to me? Read Does
God Speak Only Gentle Words?, and tell me how you
apply your understanding
to the examples in the writing, including that of the One you quote.
I’d like to know.”
I did not read your article— I do not have the time. But I can
gather from the title that it points out that the God you believe in
not only blesses, but also condemns. This is true: your God is a homunculus
that can be made to do anything anyone wishes in the entire spectrum
from loving to vile. Truly, your God is the best and worst of the humans
that created him.
“It is interesting that while you call yourself
an atheist, you quote Jesus Christ, Who testified of His Father.”
There is some wisdom on the Bible, and I accept wisdom where I find
it. That doesn’t mean I accept the broad metaphysical propositions
that Christians accept. There is also wisdom in the Qu’ran, Bhagavad
Gita, and Tao Te Ching. I quote the Bible to you because you know the
Bible.
Unfortunately, you don’t know wisdom. Or humility.
Robert
Victor and Paul’s reply:
And where do you think wisdom and humility originated, Robert? From
a rock, which came from some gases, which came from some spark to set
them off, which came from...?
I have a recommendation of reading for you: The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day. If you haven’t heard of it, you will, or if you don’t,
you lead a very sheltered existence or are willfully ignorant. If you
don’t have time to read it, as you say of our writings, you don’t
have time to eat or sleep. So do as you please, and let me know periodically
or just a few years down the road how you fare, if you ever have the
time or opportunity to do so. You can check in on us, and we can compare
notes.
Robert, Paul Cohen here. According to your definition of Jesus’ words,
there is no hubris coming from us. We have had no part in the Armstrong
debacle and its messy aftermath or in any of the wrongs perpetrated by
others we expose. The Lord has taken us right out of all pretentious
man made religion. There is no hypocrisy in what we say.
Furthermore, we are not condemning others, as you presume, by pointing
out the lies they believe and propagate. They only condemn themselves
by continuing in those things after hearing the truth. We are, in fact,
contributing to a positive resolution of the matter because we point
to the Way out.
You, on the other hand, just sit there making unconstructive statements
and judgments of us, adding to your own bitterness. Any alleged humility
you might show by admitting you were once contributing to religious deception
(which we are not hearing) is negated by your present cynicism and lack
of forgiveness for those who took you for a ride. You have not left Armstrong
at all; he still holds you prisoner - a disillusioned and ungrateful
one, but one nevertheless.
You are a hypocrite for taking us to task for not being humble because
we expose false prophets when you say you do the same thing.
“I’d like to put an invitation out to interested readers
of this blog to journey over to my
personal blog, where I have recently
called out a number of modern false prophets.”
Or are you telling us that you call out false prophets without any truth
involved? You are not making sense, Robert.
In your present condition of indignant pride, you have no idea at all
what you are talking about when it comes to the application of spiritual
truth. You cannot properly judge Jesus’ words, or ours. Someday
you will know this and readily admit it. We have not spoken to you in
vain.
Robert’s reply:
“And where do you think wisdom and humility originated, Robert?
From a rock, which came from some gases, which came from some spark to
set them off, which came from...?
I have a recommendation of reading for you: The Irrational Atheist by
Vox Day. If you haven’t heard of it, you will, or if you don’t,
you lead a very sheltered existence or are willfully ignorant. If you
don’t have time for reading it, as you say of our writings, you
don’t have time to eat or sleep.”
Summarize for me the most impressive argument it gives against atheism,
and if I find it compelling, I will read the book. If I don’t,
then I’m sure nothing else the book has to say will be worthwhile
either.
“So do as you please, and let me know periodically
or just a few years down the road how you fare, if you ever have the
time or opportunity
to do so. You can check in on us, and we can compare notes.”
And exactly when shall we compare notes? And exactly what do you expect
to see? Yes, give me something specific: something that I can take to
the world if it doesn’t happen the way you thought at say: “See,
here is yet another man who claimed to be able to speak for God.” Go
ahead: curse or bless, I care not which, but put it in writing, and make
it testable— or shut up.
Robert
Victor’s reply:
Hi Robert,
I was not speaking of prophecy.
I could do the former of what you request, however, judging by your “wisdom” and “humility,” I
choose the latter - to shut up. I’m done.
“That prophet.”
Robert’s reply:
“Hi Robert,
I was not speaking of prophecy.”
Oh, then your remarks about letting you know “periodically or
just a few years down the road how you fare,” were just making
chitchat? Made for no reason? Just trying to be buddies?
Heh.
“I could do the former of what you request,
however, judging by your ‘wisdom’ and ‘humility,’ I choose the latter
- to shut up. I’m done.”
You were done before you started with me, Victor. You are just one more
two-bit, hate-filled preacher with yet another “one truth”,
a web site to put it on, and delusions of grandeur. Have a nice life.
Robert
Paul’s reply:
Robert,
We have dealt with many religious vipers. You have proven yourself to
be just another of the brood by your reactions here, no different than
those you thought to leave behind, except you are less restrained in
expression because not bound by a false “Christian” front.
You no longer have the need to justify yourself as righteous, so you
don’t give a damn what you say to whom.
There is nothing, however, in what we have said or done towards you
that is worthy of your derisive responses. On the contrary, we have been
straightforward with you, something you prize in yourself, but for which
you hypocritically despise us. We are not railing on you or condemning
you, and we have not said anything to you except what is pertinent and
true.
Since you have despised all decent, wholesome conversation, and have
thrown caution to the wind regarding the wisdom of a responsible, respectful
tongue, your Maker will require it of you.
You are not dealing with more religious phonies here. We know what we
are talking about. What you have replied to Victor, you have said to
God. In other words, you have spit in His face. Saying it will not go
well for you is putting it mildly. Mark your calendar and these words.
It will not take long before you know the truth of them.
Robert’s reply:
Paul,
Thank you for the entertaining response. My blog readers are already
enjoying reading of our adventures together, and I’m sure they’ll
get a kick out of this turn of events.
Now, since you’ve started pronouncing voodoo curses upon those
you despise, let’s get down to specifics: exactly when shall my
maker “require my tongue?” You’ve said I should mark
my calendar, but how convenient for you that you don’t provide
a date. Shall I mark every single day from now to eternity as “Could
die today?” Seems a little tautological. So, in order for your
curse to have any remote amount of credibility, you really should put
a time frame on it. If I die of mouth cancer 30 years from now would
that count? And if pronouncing such a curse on me isn’t prophecy,
then what is?
Or perhaps you mean me to set my own deadline, since your God’s
obviously shy about setting dates himself? How about this: if a week
goes by and it “goes well for me,” and I don’t “lose
my tongue” in some ghoulishly ironic way, let’s say I’ve
beaten your little curse, shall we? After that, the board is again open
for the many other curses placed upon me by God’s numerous other
witch doctors who have prior claims against me.
I laugh. You are worse than false prophets. You are pious frauds who
prey on others’ fears. Unfortunately for you, I not only don’t
believe in your imaginary friend, I don’t believe in magic spells
either. But I do have something you don’t which is far more powerful:
public ridicule. The whole world is now watching: everyone who searches
for your names will see our exchanges and deride you and Victor for the
pitiful charlatans you are. Many who read your Path Of Truth web site
will search for more information, find these pages, and turn away— relived
that they didn’t go anywhere near you. Even your own followers
will find these pages and wonder where your power is. Some of them may
(horrors) even learn to think for themselves.
Welcome to the 21st century, and try not to bang your head on it any
harder than you already have, OK?
Robert
Paul’s reply:
Robert,
How is your tongue now that your specified week is over?
In The Irrational Atheist, the author describes you in a section on
the intelligent and educated “High Church Atheist,” disclosing
this interesting information:
“There is even evidence to suggest that
in some cases, High Church atheism may be little more than a mental
disorder taking the form of
a literal autism. On one of the more popular atheist Internet sites,
the average self-reported result on the Asperger Quotient test was 27.9.
The threshold for this syndrome, described by its discoverer, Dr. Hans
Asperger, is 32, whereas the average normal individual scores 16.5. In
light of Wolf’s observations, it is interesting to note that those
diagnosed with Asperger’s tend to be male, intelligent, impaired
in social interaction, and prone to narrow, intense interests.
This idea may explain why the following pair of definitions have proven
to be useful in distinguishing between the High Church atheist and
the agnostic.
Agnostic: I don’t believe there is a God. Because I haven’t
seen the evidence.
Atheist: There is no God. Because I’m an asshole.”
Paul Cohen
Robert’s reply:
Paul,
So nice to hear of your concern for my health. I assure you, my tongue
is just fine— in fact, today it got quite a workout! I spent several
hours with one of my consulting clients (a Fortune 100 company that hires
me to teach them about how to apply logical thinking processes more effectively
within their organization) then drove across Los Angeles to the theatre
where I had my stage debut as the fire-and-brimstone Reverend Jeremiah
Brown in a new stage production of Inherit the Wind (based on the famous
Scopes Monkey Trial.) I can tell you, performing in the role of a southern
preacher who ends up damning his daughter to hell sure brought back memories
of your little curse— and the little god whose authority you claim.
Now, a couple messages back you recommended I read “The Irrational
Atheist” by Vox Day. And as I am a busy man, I challenged you to
state the best argument against atheism from the book, and that if I
found it compelling I would read the book. And here I was all this time
thinking you had simply ignored my challenge (just as you’ve ignored
my repeated calls for you to put some teeth into your juju curse by getting
specific about the time frame at least.) In reality you were actually
waiting— cat-like— to pounce with “evidence” from
Vox Day’s book that atheists aren’t autistic! Yep, the average
of the self-selected cohort of atheists from your unnamed site, while
a little higher than “normal” doesn’t actually come
close to the magic 32-point level of Asperger Syndrome, itself an extremely
mild form of autism which approximately 78,000 people live with in the
U.S. alone (some estimates are much higher.) And if “normal” people
have an average score of 16.5, then what does that make me? See, I found
and took the test you mention. It is called the Autism Spectrum Quotient,
and was reprinted in Wired Magazine in 2001 as a sidebar to an article
called The Geek Syndrome. (Use the manual scoring key at the bottom of
the test if you choose to take it yourself— their automatic scoring
script is broken.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_Spectrum_Quotient
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html
So how did I, someone Vox Day (and you, oh possessor of God’s
Omniscience) pegs as a “High Church Atheist” score? I got
a 6. That’s right: 10 points “less autistic” than “normal.” (I
suppose you’re “normal” Paul? How about “Vox
Day”, author of “The Irrational Atheist?” Is he as “normal” as
his pen name?)
So touché, Sherlock. If that’s the best this book has to
offer against atheism, I conclude that it really doesn’t deserve
any more of my time.
“There is no God. Because I’m an asshole.” That’s
funny. Actually, the reason I don’t believe in God is that if he
existed, he wouldn’t let assholes like you speak for him.
Robert
Paul’s reply:
Robert,
Whether you score a 6 or a 60, you have played the part of an antagonistic,
caustic adversary without justification. In other words, in the vernacular
of our day, you are acting like an asshole. We don’t need a test
to prove that. The evidence is right here in our correspondence.
Yes, I did prophesy that God would require respect and humility from
you. That is not an evil thing or remotely resembling a curse. On the
contrary, it is a very good thing. You are the one who made it a “curse” about
your tongue. What you are telling us is that you would rather lose your
tongue than use it for wholesome purposes; you would have God remove
it first. We say, “So be it.”
I did say, “Mark your calendar.” All that meant was to note
the time when you determinedly set your face towards destruction. And,
no, I did not expect you to do this or to understand. I also prophesied
that when all is said and done, which will not take long, you will know
that you have been dealing with the Real Thing; God is with us.
I said it will not go well for you. It can’t, not with the way
you conduct yourself. The law of reaping and sowing has not been repealed.
That is the truth, which does not require a prophet to pronounce.
Furthermore, even before you spoke up about your challenge of a week
to fulfill the curse you determined on yourself, I prayed to God that
He would give you to ask of Him what you should have for a judgment.
I had no way of knowing you would actually do such a thing. But there
you were, the very next day, asking that God would silence your tongue,
and giving Him the deadline of a week to do so.
He has not. So what are you to make of this? Obviously to you it is
reason to celebrate and ridicule us all the more. No doubt you will do
the same with this letter. But we ask you to publish it. We certainly
will. We have nothing to hide or fear.
Here is what I see: God is longsuffering, which fools mistake for non-existence.
We will now see what He does, and, as I said before, it won’t
be long. It will also be on record, whether at your site or ours or both,
for all to see and to fear.
Paul
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