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By Any Other Name, It’s Still the Trinity


And it Still Smells Bad

We received this note in response to Diabolical Doctrine: The Trinity (God Is Three Persons):

First I will say that I do believe that GOD is ONE and not three Gods, but as I do not believe that there is three Gods I also do not believe that all Three THE FATHER, THE SON and THE SPIRIT are one being that compose GOD, there are to many instances in which YESHUA HIMSELF makes a distinction between GOD THE FATHER and HIM.

You say in your article (GOD is Three Persons) and I quote;

Some clever thinker has come up with the arrangement that "We pray to the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit." But tell me, who did Stephen pray to when he was stoned? Perhaps the trauma of the experience hindered him from understanding the difficult, yes, impossible "concept" (who can conceive such a thing?) of the trinity and remembering how he ought to relate to "it." It is recorded that Stephen, calling upon God, said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59)!

Here you state that Stephen called upon THE LORD YESHUA when he prayed before he died, yet the context of his prayer is not one of giving thanks but of asking for something, Stephen ask THE LORD two things he asks for HIM to receive his spirit and for THE LORD to not hold this sin against the ones who stoned him;

Acts 7:59-60
59 And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen did exactly what the LORD had told HIS disciples to do;

John 14:13-16
13 And whatever you may ask in My Name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My Name, I will do it. 15 If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,

John 15:7
7 If you remain in Me, and My Words remain in you, whatever you desire you will ask, and it shall happen to you.

John 15:16
16 You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.

John 16:23-24
23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Truly, truly, I say to you, Whatever you shall ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24 Until now you asked nothing in My name; ask, and you will receive, so that your joy may be full.

Here YESHUA clearly tells HIS disciples that what ever they ask in HIS name it shall come to be, that is exactly what Stephen did, he ask THE LORD YESHUA, for it is what your suppose to do when asking GOD.

In contrast we see in the Scriptures that Paul always gives thanks to GOD THE FATHER and makes the distinction between THE FATHER and YESHUA;

Romans 1:7-8
7 to all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called-out saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of in all the world.

1 Corinthians 1:1-9
1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother, 2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, those having been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called-out saints, with all those calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I give thanks to my God always concerning you for the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all discourse and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 8 who also will confirm you until the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Colossians 1:1-3
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Timothy the brother, 2 to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ in Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying continually about you,

1 Thessalonians 1:1-3
1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the assembly of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always concerning you all, making mention of you on our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love, and the patience of hope of our Lord Jesus Christ before our God and Father,

Now back to my statement that YESHUA makes a distinction between GOD THE FATHER and HIM self;

John 14:28
28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I.

Here YESHUA clearly states that THE FATHER is greater than HIM, If GOD is all Three beings how can YESHUA say that THE FATHER is greater than HIM? So we see that YESHUA acknowledges that THE FATHER is above HIM.

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You, 2 as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life. 3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

YESHUA clearly makes the distinction that THE FATHER is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and that YESHUA HIMSELF is who THE FATHER has sent. YESHUA make this same distinction trough out all the Gospels.

Interestingly Chapter 17 is YESHUA praying to THE FATHER asking to THE FATHER, some thing that YESHUA does over and over again in the Gospels.

Now if YESHUA is GOD and GOD being all Three Beings why would HE have to pray to THE FATHER?

Luke 3:21-22
21 And it happened, in the baptizing of all the people, Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened; 22 and the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily form as a dove upon Him. And there was a voice out of Heaven, saying, You are My Son, the Beloved; in You I have been delighting. Psa. 2:7; Gen 22:2; Isa. 42:1

YESHUA was praying while being baptized, and GOD declared that HE was HIS beloved SON. If YESHUA is GOD then why would GOD declare HIM as HIS SON?

Luke 9:29-35
29 And in His praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing was dazzling white. 30 And, behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah. 31 Appearing in glory, they spoke of His exodus, which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were pressed down with sleep. But fully awakening, they saw His glory, and the two men standing with Him. 33 And it happened in their parting from Him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here. And, Let us make three tents, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah, not knowing what he said. 34 And he saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them. And they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved; hear Him! Psa. 2:7; Isa. 42:1; Deut. 18:15

Here YESHUA is praying and HE is transfigured and once again GOD declared that HE is HIS beloved SON.

John 12:27-28
27 And My soul is troubled, and what may I say? Father, save Me out of this hour? But because of this I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name. Then a voice came out of the heaven: I both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.

Once again YESHUA speaks to THE FATHER and HE answers.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God.

Here YESHUA declares that THE FATHER is not only HIS FATHER but also HIS GOD

Matthew 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani; that is, "My God, My God, why did You forsake Me?" Psa. 22:1

Revelation 3:12
12 The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall not go out any more. And I will write the name of My God on him, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.

In this verses YESHUA states that HE has a GOD THE FATHER

After all of this verses showing that there is a clear distinction between GOD THE FATHER AND THE LORD YESHUA HIS SON.

The big question is, if YESHUA is GOD why would HE declare that HE has a FATHER how is HIS GOD. How can GOD have a FATHER, how can GOD have a GOD. It amazes me that people can’t accept that YESHUA was created by GOD;

Colossians 1:12-20
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, 13 who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins; 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation. 16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him. 18 And He is the Head of the body, the assembly, who is the Beginning, the First-born out of the dead, that He be preeminent in all things; 19 because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him making peace by the blood of His cross, to reconcile all things to Himself; through Him, whether the things on the earth, or the things in the heavens.

It amazes me that people ignore this verses where it clearly states that YESHUA is the First-born of all creation, in other words YESHUA is the First being created by GOD THE FATHER. And that after THE FATHER created YESHUA HE created the rest of creation in YESHUA and through YESHUA.

May YAHWEH FATHER GOD ALMIGHTY, HIS SON THE MESSIAH our LORD, KING and SAVIOR YESHUA and HIS SPIRIT THE HOLY GHOST be with you always. AMEN

Jon

Paul’s reply:

Hi Jon,

You will find the answers to your objections, both specifically and generally, in the other articles in our section Jesus Christ Is God, particularly:

The Most Glorious of Truths
Jesus Christ, Almighty God
“Who Do Men Say that I Am?”

And even though you say you don’t believe in the trinity, what you say you believe is very similar in that you have three individuals with different attributes forming one God. So also read this writing, which answers your doctrine and the objections you raise against our teaching on the one true indivisible God:

The Asininity of the Trinity

One major difference you have with Trinitarians is that you say Jesus was created, not eternal. In this matter, your fellow Trinitarians are correct in saying Jesus has no beginning or end. You are the one opposing the truth and testimony of the Scriptures.

You quote Colossians 1:12-20, particularly verse 15, as proving that Christ was created:

[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation” (Colossians 1:15 MKJV).

Does the Scripture say what you say it does?

It amazes me that people ignore this verses where it clearly states that YESHUA is the First-born of all creation, in other words YESHUA is the First being created by GOD THE FATHER. And that after THE FATHER created YESHUA HE created the rest of creation in YESHUA and through YESHUA.

But the Scripture doesn’t say Yeshua is the “firstborn creature.” It says He is the “First-born of all creation.” If He was a creature, then He had a beginning, contrary to the Scripture:

“Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, He remains a priest continually” (Hebrews 7:3 MKJV).

But if He is the Creator, then every creature is born through Him:

“For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 MKJV).

The invisible God made Himself visible in Christ and created all the things that we see, through Him. That is how He is the “First-born of all creation.” In this case, Peterson has it right in his paraphrase:

“We look at this Son and see the God Who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–everything got started in Him and finds its purpose in Him” (Colossians 1:15-16 MSG).

He is also called “the First-born from the dead” (Colossians 1:18), which has to do with overcoming death, not with being a creature. Hear what the Scriptures say:

“Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion. I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You’”
(Psalms 2:6-7 MKJV).

“This God has fulfilled to us their children, raising up Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son, this day I have begotten You’” (Acts 13:33 MKJV).

“For to which of the angels did He say at any time, ‘You are My Son, this day I have begotten You?’ And again, ‘I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son’?” (Hebrews 1:5 MKJV)

When was Jesus Christ begotten? Was it before creation, or was it when the apostle Paul says it was – at the resurrection from the dead? He was the firstfruits of them risen from the dead. He didn’t come into existence then, but defeated death and him who had power over death – the Devil. He was begotten from the dead, being resurrected.

So you must admit, nowhere do the Scriptures ever say that Christ was created. There is not one witness, let alone the required two or three.

We only ever hear of one Creator, not a committee of two:

“And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I [not ‘we’ or done through a surrogate] have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7 MKJV).

And the one and only Creator also speaks of Himself as the one and only Savior. The following verses put the rest of the nails in the coffin of your doctrine founded on the misinterpretation of a single verse:

Isaiah 43:1-13 MKJV
(1) But now so says the LORD Who created you, O Jacob, and He Who formed you, O Israel; Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; you are Mine.
(2) When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned; nor shall the flame kindle on you.
(3) For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for you.
(4) Since you were precious in My sight, you have been honored, and I have loved you; therefore I will give men for you, and people for your life.
(5) Fear not; for I am with you. I will bring your seed from the east, and gather you from the west.
(6) I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Do not keep back; bring My sons from far and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
(7) everyone who is called by My Name; for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him….
(10) You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me.
(11) I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me.
(12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God.
(13) Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?

You have made Christ into a sub-god, one created by God, contrary to His solemn declaration. Your christ is neither Lord nor Savior. Indeed, worshipping your christ is a lie:

“Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen” (Romans 1:25 KJV).

And don’t think that you can legitimately support making Christ into a creature and idol by your arguments about differences between the Father and the Son. Of course there was a difference when God manifested Himself in the form of a man to save us! That is to be expected; it goes with the territory of being human like us.

If God could have saved us without appearing as a man, He may have done that. But it wasn’t possible to accomplish His aims except through the cross. So He took on human form and submitted Himself, even to a gruesome death, for our sakes and for His glory. Praise God for that!

You say:

Here you state that Stephen called upon THE LORD YESHUA when he prayed before he died, yet the context of his prayer is not one of giving thanks but of asking for something, Stephen ask THE LORD two things he asks for HIM to receive his spirit and for THE LORD to not hold this sin against the ones who stoned him….

Of course Stephen called on Jesus to receive his spirit, because Christ is the Mediator Who connects us to Himself, God our Creator, the One in Whom we live and move and have our being. Stephen didn’t call on Abraham or Moses or David, but on Christ, because there is no other Name given to men whereby we are saved. And as we have seen, only God is our Savior, no one else.

You’re confused, Jon, because you are focused on Yeshua in the flesh, which is contrary to the counsel of God (I quote the full passage here, because it also contains the Gospel we preach in Christ, Who is Lord of all):

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 MKJV
(16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.
(17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(18) And all things are of God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.
(20) Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(21) For He has made Him Who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

You focus on a fleshly Yeshua of your own imagination, because you haven’t known the real One in the Spirit. You have set up a substitute god and system for your own righteousness, not His. That system must and will be dismantled and discarded when the fires of God have done their work in you.

You see everything in the Scriptures through your carnal eyes, and yes, we understand how it makes sense to you in the way you present it. But that way is wrong. You are on the wrong level altogether, as one buried underground, dead to Heaven and the things of God’s Spirit. His thoughts are much higher than yours, as are His ways (Isaiah 55:9).

Let me give you one more example (and do carefully read the writings I gave you, which answer your objections). You quote from the Gospel of John, followed by your commentary:

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You, 2 as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life. 3 And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

YESHUA clearly makes the distinction that THE FATHER is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and that YESHUA HIMSELF is who THE FATHER has sent. YESHUA make this same distinction trough out all the Gospels.

Yeshua doesn’t make the distinction you say, though He does declare that He comes from the Father Who sent Him, the One True God. He doesn’t, however, separate Himself from the Father in any way. “I and the Father are One,” He says (John 10:30). Knowing the true God is knowing Jesus Christ, One and the Same.

The apostle John also clarifies this in his letter, refuting your interpretation of the Savior’s words:

“And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him Who is true. And we are in Him Who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God, and the everlasting life” (1 John 5:20 MKJV).

John says we are in Him Who is true through Jesus Christ, Who is the true God and the everlasting life. There is no distinction between Father and Son, except that we know the Father through the Son. There aren’t two separate beings, both conferring eternal life on us. There is only one God Whom we worship through Jesus Christ and His Spirit.

God’s revelation in Christ is part of the mystery Paul described to Timothy:

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16 MKJV).

You have yet to meet the risen Savior, Jon. Until you are humbled, all your doctrinal theorizing does nothing but keep you away from Him.

Let me ask you a question: If Jesus Christ was created before Mary, being the first of created beings by God (as you believe), who was His mother?

And let me ask you another question: What difference do you see it making for us that we believe Jesus Christ is the One True God?

Paul

Click HERE to read more of our section – The Trinity.

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