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A False Gospel – A Man and His “Grace” Are Judged

Harold R. Green Jr. wrote us:

I was trying to find some resemblence from the salvation of the soul taught by Paul the Apostle in the New Testament and what I read on your website. Could you point me to it on you site? I could not find it. I am interested in your beliefs but could not find concrete, or concise statements on what I must do to be saved.

Victor’s reply:

Mr. Green,

If you are looking for a perfect formula as to how to get saved, you will not find it on our site. However, you will find how we got saved, not by man’s machinations but by God’s grace. See Victor Hafichuk.

Do you think anyone gave Saul of Tarsus a “Four Spiritual Laws” tract? Do you find a formula in Peter’s words to Cornelius and his house? Think about it.

By your expression, I have little doubt you think yourself to be saved (perhaps you have experienced a measure or step of salvation), and perhaps you think that men can choose their times and ways, but the Bible is clear that they cannot, as with Saul of Tarsus. I certainly could not do so – God drew me to the Son; my salvation came when the Lord determined it.

Some declarations that the times and methods are not in our hands:

“My times are in Your hand; deliver me from the hand of my enemies, and from those who persecute me” (Psalms 31:15 MKJV).

“For his days are fixed, the number of his months is with You, and You have set his bounds so that he cannot pass” (Job 14:5 MKJV).

“He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:11-13 MKJV).

If one cannot choose to be born, or when to be born, of his mother, how can one presume to be born of God if, when, and how he chooses?

“For many are called, but few chosen” (Matthew 22:14 MKJV).

“For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13 MKJV).

“You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you shall ask of the Father in My Name, He may give it to you” (John 15:16 MKJV).

“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9 MKJV).

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ’s at His coming” (1 Corinthians 15:22-23 MKJV).

You don’t see any, “You go first; I’ll catch up with you,” or, “Me first!” At no time in the history of mankind have we ever had a choice as to when we would come alive in Christ. Indeed, we have never wanted to do so, except in our own perverted way. Brother Paul, quoting from the Recorded Testimony of God, gave us ample confirmation of man’s true capabilities and intentions:

Romans 3:9-18 BBE
(9) What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin;
(10) As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
(11) Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God;
(12) They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one:
(13) Their throat is like an open place of death; with their tongues they have said what is not true: the poison of snakes is under their lips:
(14) Whose mouth is full of curses and bitter words:
(15) Their feet are quick in running after blood;
(16) Destruction and trouble are in their ways;
(17) And of the way of peace they have no knowledge:
(18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That was you and that was me, Mr. Green. You were a slave to sin so much so that your very nature was like that of those miserable creatures in I Am Legend (a remarkably accurate and poignant movie of the state of mankind). If you think that was not the case with you, then you certainly have never been saved and I should use the present tense and say that is you. It takes experience from both sides to know the dramatic difference, one of night and day.

If you think yourself to be saved, either you were saved because it was your time to be moved and granted by the Spirit of God to reach out to Him, to seek Him out, and receive Him as Lord, in which case you experienced a radical change in your life, or it was a spurious conversion experience. One is of the Spirit of God while the other is a work of man. Both can be quite impressive, and the latter deceptive enough to almost fool the elect. Millions in the world have had spurious conversions to Christ, “accepting Him into their hearts.” They go on living religious (if that) but unholy lives, not having the nature of the new creature in Christ.

Many will use verses such as these to prove me wrong, saying it is up to us:

“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said, ‘Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation’” (Hebrews 3:14-15 MKJV).

You see, however, that God had to speak first. He is the Initiator, the Author, and the Doer. He first speaks, and He first knocks:

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me” (Revelation 3:20 MKJV).

Furthermore, in these two passages it is perfectly clear that the writers are addressing believers, not unbelievers. And if believers, there is faith, of which God is the Author as well as the Finisher, working through all that occurs in the interim.

Which brings up an interesting point – are those people John addresses in Revelation saved? While we know that the Lord will eventually bring all men into the fold in the fullness of times, they must go all the way:

Speaking to the “saved,” the Lord said:

“He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son” (Revelation 21:7 MKJV).

“The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5 MKJV).

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7 MKJV).

“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13 KJV).

So, they are saved, are being saved, and, Lord willing (and He is), will be saved.

There are three feasts to be kept, that is, to enter into. Of those who claim to have had some Christian experience, most have entered none of the feasts, having experienced only man-made conversions, which are illegitimate before God. Of those remaining, some have only experienced Passover – repentance. But these must go on. I recall the still small Voice urging me on, saying, “Keep going; there’s more,” though I had experienced a dramatic change in my life at repentance. Next are those who have experienced Pentecost – they have received the Spirit of God, that is, they have been born again. Some of these mistakenly call what they have the “full gospel,” but it is only “two thirds” of it. They must go on to the Feast of Tabernacles, the very rest the Hebrews writer exhorts them to enter (Hebrews 3 and 4). That is the full gospel salvation, the overcoming, the entrance into rest.

What is “the formula” Paul spoke to the Philippian jailer, in answer to his question?:

“And being awakened, and seeing the doors of the prison being open, drawing a sword, the jailer was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul called out with a loud voice, saying, Do yourself no harm, for we are all here. Then asking for a light he rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household. And they spoke the Word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his household” (Acts 16:27-32 MKJV).

What was the Word of the Lord? Do you know? Was it a formula? We know that he simply made known to the people the facts of Jesus Christ, the One of Whom the prophets spoke, His life, death, burial, resurrection and available Presence to man as Almighty Son of God.

We also know that the Philippians believed. Why did they believe? Because God gave them the gift of faith; it was their time. We see that He was already working with them when Paul and Silas received a vision from God of a man calling them to come to Macedonia.

What was it Paul said to Lydia, the seller of purple? Was he preaching a formula or was he providing her and her household with the facts of the Messiah and His redemptive work, knowing that only the grace of God would grant them to believe what he was preaching? He trusted God and not himself to perform the salvation.

“And a certain woman named Lydia heard us, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God; whose heart the Lord opened, so that she attended to the things which were spoken by Paul” (Acts 16:14 MKJV).

It simply says that the Lord opened Lydia’s heart. I have seen the Lord do that as we share the truth with some – they undergo a spiritual change. I have also seen men lead souls in prayer by formula, a very common approach, creating only tares, self-righteous religious ne’er-do-wells, even as Billy Graham creates them.

But now to apparently contradict myself, Mr. Green, if you must have a formula, here it is:

“But the righteousness of faith says this: ‘Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down; or ‘Who shall descend into the deep?’; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. But what does it say? ‘The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart’; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim; Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame.’ For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him. For everyone, ‘whoever shall call on the Name of the Lord will be saved’” (Romans 10:6-13 MKJV).

Yet it is not a formula. My whole point is that it must be God’s work and not man’s. When God is ready to bring a man, He will furnish the reaping servant with whatever is necessary to gather the harvest, and He will put in his mouth the needed words pertaining to the Savior of all mankind, because He is the One speaking by that servant who reaps. This is supposing it is harvest time. What if it is sowing time? Are the same words spoken both times? Is a combine used for sowing? Is a seed drill used for harvest? In one operation, seed is planted while in the other the crop is harvested and threshed.

Did God give Cornelius a formula by Peter? The Record shows that Peter simply provided the facts, and while he was yet speaking, It says, the Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius and his house.

If men use their formulas, as Bill Bright has done, for example, they produce proselytes of men – tares – as did the Pharisees; they will not have disciples born of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Mr. Green, we must not lean on our own understanding but receive grace to place our confidence squarely in Him. That is where the cross comes in, which separates what is of man in the Name of God and what is truly of God. Formulas for conversion are a man-made form of circumcision of the flesh. God is after the heart, which requires faith in the laying down of the life through the cross. We preach the cross, as did Paul and other preachers of the gospel of Christ, and we know that what we preach is in agreement with what our brothers preached and still preach.

Victor

The following is correspondence among us regarding your request. The first letter is from Sara Schmidt, who came to our website and received the gospel we preach in the Lord Jesus Christ:

Sara:

You asked me for my experience.

This writing – The Baptism in the Holy Spirit – was a big help to me, as I eagerly anticipated something much Greater to come, but of more immediate importance to me was obedience (laid out in Obedience) and the coming away from my own ways, which were confronted in Counterfeit Christianity, The Case for Coming Out, and Diabolical Doctrines.

When I red how God is One not three, I felt a great lifting of a burden I didn’t know I had. I was so happy! Also, when I heard about the reconciliation of all things, I could receive it and was thankful.

So I see that I had to come through a process to receive the Spirit baptism, after which my inner nature has been exposed and is being dealt with, the end of which is salvation.

So, I don’t think we can give out a tract or something very basic like that, because people need the whole picture, which is laid out in Teachings and Diabolical Doctrines (and elsewhere on the site, of course, depending on where people are coming from).

Paul’s response to Sara:

I also recall that you needed to be in touch with us, Sara, and to hear the Word of the Lord as it applied to you. Without that, the writings would not have been enough. (I know you are not saying they would be.)

It basically comes down to this: Those being drawn by the Lord will find food on our site, and will come to us to hear the Word of God. Those who are not will not come to hear.

Good seed is planted for future harvests, too.

Another writing for Mr. Green: Only the Death Sentence Will Avail.

Harold’s reply:

Hello,

I was simply curious about your website and the doctrines which you adhere to, however I feel a little bit like you were offended at me asking for your plan of salvation.

I was correct that I did not see it directly on your website because it is not there, as you have stated.

If you are looking for a perfect formula as to how to get saved, you will not find it on our site.

I did not say I was searching for a perfect formula for being saved–I was trying to find out if you agree with what the Bible says on being saved. My sole authority is what God says in his Word, so I look there first and use it to measure truth.

After reading your comments, and now understanding a little more about what you believe, I am able to compare it with what the Bible teaches.

As far as a “formula”, there are scriptures that teach one must know certain facts before he or she can be saved. A formula is a list of ingredients that when properly applied together produce a desired outcome.

As I read the testimony of Victor I found it interesting and unique, yet when it came down to how he was saved I did not seem to see much difference scripturally than what is used in a tract such as the one mentioned; “Four Spiritual Laws”. I do not remember all of that tract, but the basic truths are presented to convince the reader he has a need of salvation and that Christ Jesus the Lord through Grace will fill that need for salvation.

Victor came to those same basic spiritual truths, as all of us who are truely saved do, and through a series of events and Bible truths presented to him by a soulwinner where he also saw his need and he believed the Gospel of the Grace of God and was saved. Wonderful!

What I find interesting however is this approach that “your path” is somehow a more exclusive Grace because it is not not by “man machinations”. I agree the Gospel preached by Paul was not after man, nor taught to him by man, neither received it from man, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:11,12) In otherwords Jesus taught it to him!

I also agree there are perversions of the Gospel that are not “another gospel”, but a perverted Gospel, which in Paul’s letter to the Galatians says those that teach it are under a curse.

My thought here is that there are many experiences and events that revolve around God’s dealings with every individual that truely comes to Christ for salvation, yet very unique in each case. But this does not mean one testimony is superior, better, or more exclusive than another’s. I would remind you of Jude 1:3

”Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.”

True believers all share a common salvation and faith that was once delivered to the saints. In my experience when I hear of those espousing some exclusive spirituality, higher in some way to the norm, I usually find a cultish behavior and credentials. I am not saying this is the case with your group, however there is hint arrogancy in your articles.

I cannot agree with this “receiving the Holy Spirit” doctrine for the believers today. I will undertake this at a time later.

Thank you for your time,

Regards,

Harold

Victor’s and Paul’s replies:

Hi Harold,

No, I was not in the least offended at your letter. In fact, you will be surprised because I began to consider what you were saying and decided to do something about it. I am almost certain that you will not entirely agree with what we did, but know that we are thankful for receiving your input. Let me first address some of your statements:

We know that you were not necessarily looking for a perfect formula in one respect at least, though I will not get into that now. Yes, we do entirely agree with all that the Bible has to say. Of course, we need to know God’s intended meaning and must beware of our carnal interpretations, which are independent of Him and never in agreement with what He has to say. So therefore He, and not the Bible, is the “Sole Authority.” Men can make “the Word” say anything, and I mean anything. This has been amply demonstrated over the millennia.

I must wholeheartedly agree with you that there are elements to salvation, as you will see we have expressed.

We claim no exclusivity, Harold, and we do not believe that one genuine testimony in Christ is superior to any other genuine testimony in Christ (I don’t know why you have the impression otherwise – perhaps you can quote something), but we do make it clear that all “gospel” or “salvation” approaches are not equal and we make no apology for that. There is only One Way. Yes, for those who are saved, it is the common salvation to which Paul referred.

Therefore, we can only wholeheartedly agree with you when you say (with my bolding but your choice of words), “True believers all share a common salvation and faith that was once delivered to the saints.” The fact is that there are many false brethren, spurious conversions, and many are deceived.

I just talked to a lady yesterday who said, “We all have our paths and ways to God.” My reply: “God deals according to our personal needs and plan for us; that is true. However, those who are called and chosen of Him and being saved are all on the same spiritual path and will be in agreement. If no agreement, someone (if not both) is not on the True Path, the Way of Life in Christ.”

Finally, you write: “I cannot agree with this ‘receiving the Holy Spirit’ doctrine for the believers today. I will undertake this at a time later.

Please do follow through; you will discover there is much more to possess in Christ. Meanwhile, you will read (or have red) of my having received the Spirit 22 months after a genuine, revolutionary repentance/conversion experience. As well, you can read The Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now to what we have done with your input. Go to our site and see for yourself. We have even added a link on each webpage to our article, How One Is Saved (Sara’s suggestion).

Victor

Hi Harold, Paul here. I have a couple thoughts to share with you.

Regarding our testimonies, if you read mine you will see that it is quite different from Victor’s. The Lord began to reveal Himself to me without the kind of presentation of the gospel that Victor was given. (Actually, the Lord had also begun to reveal Himself to Victor before that time, too, as you can see from the dream He gave Victor. The Lord is always going before, preparing the ground for receptivity to the Seed.)

When I met Victor in Israel, I was already a believer. There were no formulaic presentations of the gospel, but we did have many talks and I heard the Word of God that he spoke to me. I became convicted of my sin, which led to repentance.

Each person has unique circumstances suited to his or her unique purposes intended by his or her Creator.

Therefore, while we have very different testimonies, we are not saying one is superior to the other. The truth is that both of us have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, and we serve Him according to His will. This is God’s manifest perfection on earth for all His saints. We need each other and every other part of His Body that is unique yet sharing a common purpose because walking in and led by the Spirit of God and our Head, Jesus Christ. It is all good:

“But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7 MKJV).

There is no superiority or exclusivity in Christ. Paul said this to comfort us in the truth:

“Therefore let no one glory in men. For all things are yours, whether it is Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Corinthians 3:21-23 MKJV).

What unsettles you is that we contend for this faith with those who do not have it because they do not have Christ, even as Jude exhorts:

“Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation [we are one and share a common Life], beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 1:3-4 MKJV).

By the grace of God, Harold, we are walking in obedience to Jude’s exhortation by the new nature of Christ Who lives in us. He is with us and we are with Him, even as Enoch prophesied:

“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him” (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).

Without having the Spirit of Christ, we could not contend for the faith and speak with His authority. But being His and as He is in this world, we do those things He does, and just as in the days of His flesh the false religious opposed Him, so they oppose those who come in Him today. The only difference is that now He comes as the Lion of Judah to put down all rule and authority on earth. So it is written.

Harold’s reply:

Hello, again

Thank you for your responses.

It is written that there are no private interpretations to scripture. (2 Peter 1:20,21) Paul describes those who would twist the scriptures to their own destruction. So you are correct that scripture could be used to say only what one would want it to say. “Let every man be persuaded in his own mind.” (Romans 14:5)

I would have to conclude then that other Bible passages must interpret a single Bible passage. Only Holy men of God who spake by the Holy Ghost could shed actual light on a passage or passages spoken by other Holy men of God moved and spake by the same Holy Spirit.

I am very nervous at this statement; “Of course, we need to know God’s intended meaning and must beware of our carnal interpretations, which are independent of Him and never in agreement with what He has to say. So therefore He, and not the Bible, is the ‘Sole Authority.’” How can He (the Word) be sole authority over the Bible (the Word)?

Christ being the “Word of God” would qualify the Bible (the Word of God) as the only “sole authority” to avoid a private interpretations of His Word; comparing scripture with scripture. I do not see how He (the Word) and “not the Bible” be the “Sole Authority”. Jesus Christ would never contradict Himself.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,…
” (Heb. 1:1,2)

As I see it, if we are to hear anything from God, it must come from the Bible ALONE. Since we are in “these last days”, the Bible must be the final authority in all faith and practice.

For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” (Psalm 138:2)

As far as “receiving the Holy Ghost” don’t you mean to “be filled with the Spirit”, or “walk in the Spirit”? I see a transition of God’s Spirit in the Book of Acts. The Gentiles in Acts 10:47 received the Holy Ghost at salvation. Peter stated they had received the Holy Ghost “as well as we?” In Acts 2 Peter stated the Holy Ghost would be received after baptism.

Romans 8:9 makes it very plain for Gentiles believers:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

To be sure, Paul states that if you have not the Spirit of God you are not saved. To have the Holy Spirit is to be saved in this present ministry. This is why I would question the “receiving” of the Holy Spirit after the salvation experience. Can you explain this further about your statement?

Thanks again,

Harold Green

Victor’s and Paul’s replies:

Hi Harold,

For the moment, I would like you to read what we have written and recommended to you on the subjects in question, which would answer several of your questions. Concerning receiving the Spirit, please read The Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Though we have already referred you to this paper, you must not have red it or you would not be asking the questions you now ask.

As to the Word of God, meaning the Bible is Jesus Christ, read:

Is the King James Authorized Version the Perfect Word of God?

As to Who or what is the Ultimate Authority, read:

False Christianity Unmasked
Bible Worship Used by Men to Cover Evil

Related to those subjects is the matter of hearing His Voice:

His Sheep Hear His Voice

Diabolical Doctrine (doctrine of devils – 1 Timothy 4:1):

Believers No Longer Hear God’s Voice

Diabolical Doctrines:

Conversion Is Full Salvation
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit Are Not for Today

When you have red these, you will have most of your questions answered, but you will have many more to ask and certainly objections.

By the way, the KJV gives a faulty rendering of:

“I will worship toward Thy Holy Temple, and praise Thy Name for Thy lovingkindness and for Thy truth: for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy Name” (Psalms 138:2 KJV).

Better and spiritually reasonable are these renditions:

“I will bow down toward Your Holy Temple and will praise Your Name for Your love and Your faithfulness, for You have exalted above all things Your Name and Your Word” (Psalm 138:2 NIV).

Or: “I will bow down toward Your Holy Temple and give thanks to Your Name for Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your Word according to all Your Name” (Psalm 138:2 NASB).

Or: “I worship at Your Holy Temple and praise You for Your love and Your faithfulness. You were true to Your Word and made Yourself more famous than ever before” (Psalms 138:2 CEV).

Or: “I will worship towards Thy Holy Temple, and I will give glory to Thy Name. For Thy mercy, and for Thy truth: for Thou hast magnified Thy Holy Name above all” (Psalms 138:2 DRB).

Or: “I face Your holy Temple, bow down, and praise Your Name because of Your constant love and faithfulness, because You have shown that Your Name and Your commands are supreme” (Psalms 138:2 GNB).

Or: “I will bow toward Your Holy Temple. I will give thanks to Your Name because of Your mercy and truth. You have made Your Name and Your promise greater than everything” (Psalms 138:2 GW).

A paraphrase puts it this way:

“I kneel in worship facing Your Holy Temple and say it again: ‘Thank You!’ Thank You for Your love, thank You for Your faithfulness; Most holy is Your Name, most holy is Your Word” (Psalms 138:2 MSG).

And best of all, direct from the Hebrew (a word for word translation):

“I worship toward the Temple of Your holiness, and I thank Your Name, by Your mercy and by Your truth, for You increase by all Your Name – Your Word.”

The point is this: My word is not greater than I. I am my word and my word is me. Your word is not greater than you. It is no different with God; His Word is not greater than He. Consider that if the Son is subject to the Father, how then, being the Word, is He greater than the Father, Who raised the Word from the dead?

Which addresses the point of just what the Bible is in relation to God, does it not?

Victor

Harold, Paul here.

There are no private interpretations of Scripture because, as the Scripture says, the prophecies were given by men moved by the Holy Spirit of God. That means the interpretations also can only come through God.

For example, the Ethiopian told Philip that he needed God (or a man of God) to explain to him what was meant by Isaiah’s words. Now, there is humility for you! It is written that God gives grace to the humble, so He provided Philip to give His interpretation, which the Ethiopian believed by faith (another example of the gospel “plan of salvation” uniquely shared and presented).

Philip fulfills the criteria you lay out for such a truthful and effective exposition of the Scriptures:

Only Holy men of God who spake by the Holy Ghost could shed actual light on a passage or passages spoken by other Holy men of God moved and spake by the same Holy Spirit.

We are such men through Jesus Christ, Who lives in us and enlightens our understanding, enabling us to preach the gospel that brings salvation to those who hear and believe.

The words of Paul that you quote about each person being persuaded in his or her own mind had to do with eating, whether a person refrained from meats or fasted altogether on certain days. That has nothing to do with, and it does not recommend, personal interpretations of Scripture. Paul did not countenance personal interpretations at all:

“But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, and I say again just now, if anyone preaches a gospel to you other than what you received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8-9 EMTV).

But here you are, in this very instant, not rightly dividing the Word. For your sake, Harold, read carefully those things that we sent you. Pray for humility and true holiness, without which you will never see God.

Harold’s response:

Victor,

It has become apparent to me that just from reading in this limited time, I have encountered some problems with the general approach to religion, the Bible, and God in your doctrine. I truly wish I had more time to read everything that somehow you feel I should have read already, but I simple do not.

I feel I have a good handle on your doctrines at this time and will address some of the major points. I will just want to begin to say I do not see much difference in your doctrine than the average charismatic off shoots of today’s modern churchianity. Only minor twists of teaching, and possibly the denial of the Scriptures as having limited authority. When I get home tonight I will get into this much more directly.

Harold

Victor’s reply:

Harold, you write of us: “Only minor twists of teaching, and possibly the denial of the Scriptures as having limited authority.

Your careless, cursory consideration of what we teach does you no justice. You are so wrong. There is substantial difference between our doctrine and what you call “charismatic off shoots,” as well as with yours, one of day and night, one of life and death.

Even where we agree doctrinally in certain respects, you don’t see it. Your interpretation of our stand in the matter of the authority of Scripture is in great error. We have never said, and we do not believe, the Scriptures have “limited authority.” If you had ears to hear and eyes to see, you would know this, but your heart is hardened in your religious upbringing, indoctrination, and foolish notions of God.

Jesus Christ referred to the Scriptures as fully authoritative. We know Him as the Author of the Scriptures – we know Him. He lives in us, speaks to us, has prepared us, and sends us forth to preach, according to the Scriptures. You know nothing and have no handle of anything with us, I assure you.

For your sake, I tell you that men’s interpretations of the Scriptures are the problem and not the Scriptures Themselves. Therefore, if men do not know the Author, The One Authority by Whom the Scriptures originate, the Scriptures are useless because hidden, even as with, for example, the Ethiopian eunuch. If you knew Him as you suppose, you would understand. The difference between us is that while we worship the Author of the Scriptures, you worship the Scriptures; Harold, you are a Bibliolater.

While you have the Scriptures, you do not understand Them – so much for the Scriptures having authority for you. You do not have The Authority, Jesus Christ. But because you think you know and understand because you have the Scriptures, you are a Bibliolater. As Jesus said to those of like mind with you:

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about Me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from Me the life you say you want [or think you have]” (John 5:39-40 MSG).

Again and again, I tell you that the answers to your quandaries and questions are in the writings we recommend to you. They are also in those things you claim you have already red at our site, as in my testimony, for example, and you cannot see for looking.

Let me ask your motivation for writing us, Harold. You say you have little time for the answers to your questions, so why are you asking them? Should we really take the trouble to reinvent the wheel by repeating ourselves because you won’t take the trouble to read the answers we have already given?

It is evident to us that you have your mind made up and are quite reluctant to hear what we have to say; you think to know more or better than we do and sit in judgment, determining all things. Have we been called before your Seat? You also assume you understand what we are saying, but it is clear to us you do not.

Judging from the words you have already spoken, you have never received the Spirit of Christ. You are the typical fundamental evangelical “believer” who thinks to be saved, converted to Christ (an experience represented by Passover), but who despises the feasts of Pentecost and Tabernacles because you have never experienced them. So according to you and yours, we are short of the truth or in remediable error, if not downright deluded.

For your sake, I tell you that we know full well there is much falsehood and deception in Pentecostal and charismatic circles. The Lord taught us well in these things (He does all things well), taking us through them during the ‘70’s and into the ‘80’s. As the Captain of our ship, the Lord has guided us through all the shoals and reefs and kept us from all harm. Not only so, He has brought us to His safe harbor and from there, we view and speak to such as you. There is also great, if not greater, error and deception in your dimension.

Everyday we see flimsy boats tossed to and fro in the storm, presuming to be with safe tack, and also presuming to be able to guide us to some imaginary or presumed harbor. Everyday we see some wrecked in those storms or in those places they think to be safe harbors. Everyday we see them rationalize in ways that are not good. Everyday they ask questions as though they are wise and give answers they think are enlightening, spouting the party line. But we must witness their destructives coming on their own heads for their lack of knowledge and refusal to believe. Everyday we witness these things, Harold, while day by day, we increase in the blessing of the Lord, as He continues in faithfulness, confirming our steps all these years. But will they listen? They are all as you.

You have a good handle on nothing here, Harold. Still, we will exercise the patience we need, by God’s grace, to see you through your judgment of us, but know this – you will be the one judged here. As our testimony page declares:

“The Stone which the builders refused has become the Head of the corner” (Psalms 118:22 MKJV).

“And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever It shall fall, It will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:44) – Jesus Christ.

“…and he shall bring forth the top stone with shoutings, Grace! Grace to it!” (Zechariah 4:7 MKJV).

Coming here, you have come upon The Stone.

Victor

Harold’s response:

Victor,

The last email you said that ‘God’ and not the Bible has final authority. You also stated that the King James was the best translation but it “contains errors”. Tonight you said this:

I tell you that men’s interpretations of the Scriptures are the problem and not the Scriptures Themselves.” WHAT?

If it is “man’s interpretations” of the scriptures that causes the problem and not the “scriptures themselves” you have just contradicted yourself. Which is it? Does the Bible have errors? Or is it “man’s interpretation” that makes the problem with the scriptures? You have plainly stated tonight the problem is “not with the scriptures themselves”, yet you said there are errors in it. Errors ARE problems!

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Call it “careless, cursory of consideration” all you want to; These statements of your’s are not only contradictory, but stikes dead upon THE PROBLEM of ALL your teachings. Your “Foundational Theology” is in error. Here is why:

1. You “borrow” words and terms from the scripture to give appearance you are Christian but deny (or simply ignore) plain Bible teachings, and instruction that are vital to those words and terms and for their contextual and proper application. (For instance, “repentance” as one of many)

2. Many of these words and terms you change their meanings to build your psuedo-doctrines, built NOT upon other scripures that help define and apply them, but plainly ignore other places in scripture where they are found because they interfere with your “private interpretations” from “YOUR” final authority. (tongues? a voice you heard?)

2 Peter 1:20,21 says the “voice” they heard on the mount from heaven was NOT the “final authority”; there was a “MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY”. Peter then goes on to describe the SCRIPTURES were that sure “word”. Jesus quoted the “scriptures” when confronted by satan. (Mattthew 4:1-10) Victor, you need to follow His example and rebuke your devils!

3. You “borrow” from Islamic and Athiestic “lists” of so-called Bible contradictions and use them and their mindset to tear down the scriptures (how sickening, and you call yourself Christian?) to bolster YOUR “final authority”. (Because you do not study these alledged contradictions out to find the truth, these remain “contradictions” to you.) THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS. You are either simply too lazy to look into the scriptures and resolve them yourself or you want to remain ignorant to keep the Bible from being your authority “because there are errors in it.” (By the way, if you have not yet figured out why Stephen gave a different number in Acts 7:14 than in Genesis 46 your elementary school Bible knowledge is painfully showing. I will give you a hint: It has to do with two words “kindred’ and “house”. However, be prepared to read alot more than just the two verses your gave.) This goes for the rest of those lying Islamic and Atheist lists you gloat about.

4. You blantantly charge those who believe in the inerrant KJV with idol worship, and if the Bible were to suddenly disappear (dissolved) their god would be gone. The fact is, without the Bible you would have NO KNOWLEGE for anything you pitifully teach, you would not know anything about SALVATION, THE HOLY SPIRIT, REPENTANCE, SANTIFICATION, ETERNAL LIFE, HEAVEN/HELL. You base your never-dying soul’s salvation on the Bible then turn about and deny it’s accuracy! WOW.

Have a nice Eternity, VICTOR (Praying for you big time)

Harold

Paul’s reply:

Harold, before we say any more, you need to be reminded to answer Victor’s question:

Let me ask your motivation for writing us, Harold. You say you have little time for the answers to your questions, so why are you asking them?

You have our testimonies and a great deal of information about us at your disposal, but we do not know who you are. You need to tell us about yourself. Victor also wrote you:

It is evident to us that you have your mind made up and are quite reluctant to hear what we have to say; you think to know more or better than we do and sit in judgment, determining all things. Have we been called before your Seat?

“Seat” is capitalized because you act as if you are speaking for God. Tell us your credentials in the Lord, as we have made ours public and as other servants of God declare their position in Him, like Paul the apostle did:

“Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ (according to the faith of God’s elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God, Who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed His Word in its own times in a proclamation, with which I was entrusted by the command of God our Savior,)…” (Titus 1:1-3 MKJV).

Who are you to speak for God?

We want to hear what the Lord has personally taught and spoken to you. As you know of us because we have not hid, but have publicly declared and identified ourselves, so we would like you to tell us with whom we are dealing. Will you not come out and show yourself? Who are you and why are you here?

You have not answered our questions. You also have not acknowledged or commented on How One Is Saved.

Paul

Harold’s reply to both:

I would like to delve into your repentance doctrine as this will reveal what you are actually trusting in for your salvation. I would like to discuss this *thoroughly* from your website. If you do not wish to do this please let me know and I will leave you to your *doctrine*. I was saved by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ by faith after hearing the Gospel of God’s salvation preached 37 years ago. My testimony is strikingly similar to yours, Victor. However, who hath bewitched you? You have strayed from your first love to “another gospel”. I am trying to shake you up from the error you are wandering in.

A full study of the doctrine of “repentance” should be able to guide you back to Jesus Christ of the Gospel as taught By Paul. Jesus said His words are “SPIRIT and they are “LIFE”. Surely this means His words are not in error. I am willing to do this if you are.

Paul?

Well, I have finally read most of your doctrinal teachings now. To answer why I am here, is simply *curiosity*. My curiosity was sparked by my own disappointment with nominal churchianty. I have recently decided to take my family out of the state incorporated churches and those who are teaching a false repentance “works salvation”.

I am saddened by the departure from the doctrine of GRACE salvation alone through the shed blood and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Most fundamental churches have followed the liberal trends and are now corrupted and have fallen for the David Cloud, Ray Comfort, and John McArthur , lordship salvation teachings. I have since started a Home Church with family and friends who share Christ as their only hope of salvation. I stress that one must “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved”. (Acts 16: 30,31) If one does not see their personal, utter, sinful condition and lostness, Christ cannot save them. We are saved by His “mercy” not our keeping the Law by “turning from sins”. This is why He died; all have sinned and come short of His Glory. Titus 3:5

I do not remember how I came across your website, though I saw some things I thought were in common with my current situation. However, I pretty much see this same departure from GRACE being taught about salvation by your “repentance” doctrine. You speak from both side of your mouth; you say you are saved by Grace but your false definition of repentance is adding “WORKS”–“A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways” Repentance is completely misunderstood because of cliches’ adopted by preachers and evangelists in their bombastic styles telling people to “Repent of your sins”–“turn from your sins” and believe on Christ and you will be saved. This is false doctrine taught by the false Galatian legalist, which Paul twice condemned. “LET HIM BE ACCURSED”

What has happened is the Bible definition of repentance has been altered–even in your articles the same thinking has replaced the true Greek meaning of the word. As I read through the article on repentance on your website the same mistake is being made, that repentance means “more than a change of mind”. The facts show however that there must be an OBJECT of repentance. And when repentance is used in scripture in regard to being saved the OBJECT of our repentance is different than for a believer who is already saved and the OBJECT is his sanctification. The plain fact in scripture is that *God repented* in the old testament on a number of occasions. Since God is not a sinner the only definition of repentance must be “a change in one’s thinking” and nothing more.

The real question should be “What are you repenting “FROM” at salvation; what is the OBJECT from which you are repenting and to WHAT are you going to repent TO? Repentance, “a change of mind” must have a “FROM and a “TO”. At salvation Hebrews 6:1 states “repentance” is FROM “DEAD WORKS” and TO “FAITH TOWARD GOD”.

“DEAD WORKS” means ALL works are dead at salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9 states the same thing. “NOT OF WORKS”. “Therefore by the works of the law shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in His sight.” (Romans 3:20)

All I see in your article on repentance is a pre-sanctification that would “QUALIFY YOU BY YOUR WORKS” before you can trust Christ JESUS and be saved. This is Lordship salvation. Requiring that you must “submit yourself to God” by conforming to righteous acts in order to be saved is heresy. That is WORKS! If you submit to God and “STOP SINNING” as your article is clearly stating, this requires you to KEEP THE LAW.

In 1 John 3:4 plainly says that “sin” is the transgression of the law”. If you must STOP SINNING to be saved, you must STOP TRANSGRESSING the law. In order to “stop” transgressing the law, you must start KEEPING the law.

The false teachers in Galatians were teaching the same thing. They said you: “must be circumsized and KEEP the law or you cannot be saved.” This is not GRACE. At salvation you must repent of ALL WORKS and trust CHRIST’S WORK on Calvary to save you.

I therefore cannot fellowship with false teachers who say there are mistakes in God’s Word (I do not care what lists of contradictions you borrow from the Muslims and Atheists) and are attempting to mix the law with Grace salvation. It is like oil and water–THEY DO NOT MIX! (Romans 11:6)

Have a nice eternity,

Harold Green

Paul’s reply:

Harold, you still have not answered my questions. You have not told us about your credentials, as Paul the apostle was forward to give his. Where is the evidence and proof of God of your calling?

Of course, we know you have none. You have a Bible, which is your god, and therefore you consider yourself eminently qualified to speak. You have never heard from the Lord or been taught by Him, let alone been sent by Him. These things are totally alien to you, though you read about them all the time in the Book you worship. Because you do not know the Author or have anything from Christ, you botch everything you read, think, and say about God, the Bible, and us, His servants.

You have never experienced repentance. You have not left the churches of men to search for the truth, but because you want to promote yourself. You may be curious, but you are not zealous for the truth. You are an unreasonable brute beast, a loser who can’t get along with anybody. You are a forlorn and pitiful creature, a bat that does not fit in with the birds or mammals. You are an outcast in earth and in Heaven.

Your works put your family and those who listen to you into bondage. Only bitter fools would follow you, and only the grace of God will deliver any from your grip.

You are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart. You act as if rejecting circumcision in the flesh gives you virtue, but it doesn’t because you have not had the circumcision of the heart. You glory in your corrupt flesh and do wicked works; you have never known the Kingdom of God. Your presumption to speak for God makes you antiChrist. Satan has come to our doorstep and demands entry, but we say to you, Satan, “Get out; you are a liar and the father of liars, the accuser and murderer of God’s saints, and your time is finished. Be gone.”

We have been patient with you, Harold, though we saw you from the beginning. Now we answer you in full, that God may make a full end of you. If your doctrine has been known as holy, it is only because it is full of holes.

Regarding your complaints about our paper on the imperfections of the King James Version, you are one overconfident and confused fellow! You have totally misheard and misstated what we say. We have told you the reason for this.

Here is what we actually said in the paper:

God, and not your interpretation of the Bible (or any private interpretation), is the Authority.

This answers your main question. You quote our paper:

I tell you that men’s interpretations of the Scriptures are the problem and not the Scriptures Themselves.

And ask: “WHAT?

You won’t understand my statement any more than you understood Victor’s statement. You are deaf, dumb, and blind like your idol, the Bible. Furthermore, even if one understands the Bible (which you don’t), the believer is still called to obey God by faith and not by sight. Nowhere in the Bible does it say it is right for men to sacrifice another human being (It says the opposite), yet Abraham, knowing the ways of God though he had no Bible, was instructed by God to offer up his son contrary to the Law, and he obeyed God by faith.

You are not a son of Abraham, for he is not the father of idolaters. Abraham worshipped God alone, not even God’s words though he believed God. He walked by faith, as do all his children.

This is why you don’t see that we are not tearing down the Bible. We are tearing down your idol the Bible. No more Bible–god when we are finished. The head and hands of your god are cut off, like Dagon who was left a stump in his temple before the Ark of God.

It is impossible for you to honestly read our paper on the King James Bible. You cannot conceive that the errors or mistranslations in it are not a problem for those who know the Author and are kept by Him. He commands us to put our trust in Him and not in ourselves and the letter of the Word:

“Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God; Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive” (2 Corinthians 3:5-6 MKJV).

To those who do not know the Author of the letter, a perfect text is of absolutely no help. Only idolaters, such as you, think otherwise.

Our paper contradicts your accusation that we find fault with the Bible. Indeed, we find fault with those who find fault with the Bible:

Many accuse the Bible of contradiction, yet almost invariably, when confronted and required to give examples, these accusers are at a loss to prove their assertions. These accusations are but one of many excuses, to absolve themselves of the responsibility for the truth found in the Bible and ultimately, of course, of accountability to God. Being ignorant of the truth and of the Scriptures, they have no substance when challenged to prove their assertions. However, we are not of those who make unsubstantiated claims, or criticisms, if you will, of the Bible, and of the KJV in particular. We will give you substance.

Some of those things only appear as contradictions to those who are ignorant and do not understand God’s ways. Others are actual contradictions, but are they problems? More from the writing:

Is the KJV perfect? How so? Did God err? Could He not make up His mind or remember whether it was one or two donkeys, or one or two men at the empty tomb? If so, is HE perfect? Or did the copyists get it wrong, or the translators, or the printers?

Please understand, those of you who read this and falter in faith, given these discrepancies, that these are merely statistical mysteries, be they errors or not. Regardless of how many demon-possessed men there were, or how many donkeys there were, or how many thieves railed on Jesus, or how many souls came to Egypt, the spiritual truth remains. Jesus delivered people, entered Jerusalem, it being necessary that as a prophet, He die there, and was crucified with the wicked. Jacob and his family did go to Egypt, where a family (with however many members) did become a nation. Put your trust not in statistical details, for which there can be explanations, though error as well, but in the Living God, Who IS. If you falter in these matters, it is because you do not have the true faith, for which we, as His servants and brothers, earnestly contend. King James will not save you; only Jesus Christ can.

The contradictions we have posted are common knowledge and no problem whatsoever for any believer, and they do not change one iota the Truth of the Scriptures. Only one who worships the letter is offended.

With your Bibliolatrous eyes you see the Bible above God, Whom you do not see at all. You write:

2 Peter 1:20,21 says the ‘voice’ they heard on the mount from heaven was NOT the ‘final authority’; there was a ‘MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY’. Peter then goes on to describe the SCRIPTURES were that sure ‘word’.

That is not at all what Peter was saying. How in the world could he say that anything was more certain than what God, in His own voice, spoke directly to him when He testified of His Anointed on the mount of transfiguration?! How wickedly stubborn and stupid you are! Here is a translation that gives the proper meaning (not that the meaning cannot be discerned from the King James):

“And this voice came from Heaven even to our ears, when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so the words of the prophets are made more certain; and it is well for you to give attention to them as to a light shining in a dark place, till the dawn comes and the Morning Star is seen in your hearts” (2 Peter 1:18-19 BBE).

You accuse us of trying to “tear down the scriptures…to bolster [OUR] ‘final authority.’

These are empty words, because, as is evident, nowhere do we tear down the Scriptures. Our site is full of authoritative teaching from the Scriptures, and you have not proven one error in any of it. So much for your accusation. But I have news for you: We do have final authority to render God’s judgment on you, and you cannot escape it.

Let us teach you something about original languages. You write: “Study more, Victor.” The “study” that Paul recommended to Timothy was an exercise of earnestness that would substantiate Timothy’s acceptance with God in his preaching. It had nothing to do with your kind of study. The study you engage in and preach as dead works are described in the Scriptures as follows:

“And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh” (Ecclesiastes 12:12 KJV).

Your words and works are fleshly and a burden to all who contemplate or enter into them. Examples from your latest reply (in dark red, my comments in blue):

Paul?

Well, I have finally read most of your doctrinal teachings now. To answer why I am here, is simply *curiosity*. My curiosity was sparked by my own disappointment with nominal churchianty. I have recently decided to take my family out of the state incorporated churches and those who are teaching a false repentance “works salvation”.

I am saddened by the departure from the doctrine of GRACE salvation alone through the shed blood and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Most fundamental churches have followed the liberal trends and are now corrupted and have fallen for the David Cloud, Ray Comfort, and John McArthur, lordship salvation teachings. I have since started a Home Church with family and friends who share Christ as their only hope of salvation.

WORKS – Who says you gather by grace any more than Catholics or Protestants do? Yours is also a dead work:

“Behold, gathering they shall gather, but not from Me. Who has gathered against you? By you he shall fall” (Isaiah 54:15 LITV).

I stress that one must ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved’. (Acts 16: 30,31) If one does not see their personal, utter, sinful condition and lostness, Christ cannot save them. We are saved by His ‘mercy’ not our keeping the Law by ‘turning from sins’.

WORKS – How are you supposed to see your personal lostness unless Christ is already saving you? But you have to make it happen by your works. Furthermore, unless one uses the Law lawfully, people will not be convicted of their sins. You preach a false gospel of false faith without the works of true faith.

This is why He died; all have sinned and come short of His Glory. Titus 3:5

WORKS – It is not enough that Christ died; to enter into His glory there must also be the resurrection. But that is something you know nothing about, leaving you with lifeless, dead words. You have never experienced true repentance, a work of God. All you have and preach are works of the flesh, just like those whom you bitterly condemn. You are a hypocrite, the vilest of the vile in the sight of God.

I do not remember how I came across your website, though I saw some things I thought were in common with my current situation. However, I pretty much see this same departure from GRACE being taught about salvation by your ‘repentance’ doctrine. You speak from both side of your mouth; you say you are saved by Grace but your false definition of repentance is adding ‘WORKS’–‘A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways’ Repentance is completely misunderstood because of cliches’ adopted by preachers and evangelists in their bombastic styles telling people to ‘Repent of your sins’–‘turn from your sins’ and believe on Christ and you will be saved. This is false doctrine taught by the false Galatian legalist, which Paul twice condemned. ‘LET HIM BE ACCURSED’

WORKS – You misinterpret Paul and lay false burdens on your hearers, teaching them to expect the fruits of faith without genuine repentance. You are the epitome of dead works. You have nothing to do with Paul, who testified:

“Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the Heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance” (Acts 26:19-20 KJV).

What has happened is the Bible definition of repentance has been altered–even in your articles the same thinking has replaced the true Greek meaning of the word. As I read through the article on repentance on your website the same mistake is being made, that repentance means ‘more than a change of mind’. The facts show however that there must be an OBJECT of repentance. And when repentance is used in scripture in regard to being saved the OBJECT of our repentance is different than for a believer who is already saved and the OBJECT is his sanctification. The plain fact in scripture is that *God repented* in the old testament on a number of occasions. Since God is not a sinner the only definition of repentance must be ‘a change in one’s thinking’ and nothing more.

WORKS – This is plainly refuted by the Scriptures you claim we denigrate, but which in fact you trash as you trample on the blood that sanctifies us. I just quoted you one refutation. Here is another:

“Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and will remove your lampstand out of its place unless you repent” (Revelation 2:5 MKJV).

The real question should be ‘What are you repenting ‘FROM’ at salvation; what is the OBJECT from which you are repenting and to WHAT are you going to repent TO? Repentance, ‘a change of mind’ must have a ‘FROM and a ‘TO’. At salvation Hebrews 6:1 states ‘repentance’ is FROM ‘DEAD WORKS’ and TO ‘FAITH TOWARD GOD’.

WORKS – How can you repent from dead works by doing dead works? That is the deceitfulness of your sin speaking. You have never known the living works of God, and those you have seen you despise.

‘DEAD WORKS’ means ALL works are dead at salvation. Ephesians 2:8,9 states the same thing. ‘NOT OF WORKS’. ‘Therefore by the works of the law shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in His sight.’ (Romans 3:20)

WORKS – Salvation is not of works, but produces works. Your dead works of non-salvation negate God’s living works of salvation:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10 MKJV).

All I see in your article on repentance is a pre-sanctification that would ‘QUALIFY YOU BY YOUR WORKS’ before you can trust Christ JESUS and be saved. This is Lordship salvation. Requiring that you must ‘submit yourself to God’ by conforming to righteous acts in order to be saved is heresy. That is WORKS! If you submit to God and ‘STOP SINNING’ as your article is clearly stating, this requires you to KEEP THE LAW.

WORKS – What is the difference between stopping sinning and turning from dead works? You say your conversion experience is very similar to Victor’s. Not so. Victor was trying to clean up his act (stop sinning) after he first saw the Lord, and could not do it. The Lord did not condemn him but told him to keep going (in other words, keep trying). In a short while the Lord gave him repentance and the sinning stopped. Both the dead works and the sinning ceased! That is grace you have never known! You are in putrid self-righteousness and vomit religious intellectual gibberish.

Victor’s paper on repentance was not a treatise on what man should do in his own strength but a description of true repentance as God performs it in man. Victor spoke of the nature of repentance, crediting the Potter and not the clay. His purpose was to let people like you know what is God’s genuine work of repentance, and not man’s. The ironic thing of it is that the unrepentant cannot understand true repentance, never having experienced it. But the paper will serve to confirm the faith of true believers and will foil the works of those who preach another gospel, as do you.

In 1 John 3:4 plainly says that ‘sin’ is the transgression of the law’. If you must STOP SINNING to be saved, you must STOP TRANSGRESSING the law. In order to ‘stop’ transgressing the law, you must start KEEPING the law.

WORKS – The Lord Jesus told several whom He healed and forgave to go on and sin no more. Was He preaching dead works? According to you, He was. But we know His works are alive and yours are dead.

The false teachers in Galatians were teaching the same thing. They said you: ‘must be circumsized and KEEP the law or you cannot be saved. This is not GRACE. At salvation you must repent of ALL WORKS and trust CHRIST’S WORK on Calvary to save you.

WORKS – Your focus on trusting Christ’s work is a diversion from trusting God. We trust Him because He has done the work in us. His work is something we personally experience. You trust the Bible, the teachings in the Bible, and your corrupt interpretation of them, but you do not trust God; you have not experienced anything of Him.

I therefore cannot fellowship with false teachers who say there are mistakes in God’s Word (I do not care what lists of contradictions you borrow from the Muslims and Atheists) and are attempting to mix the law with Grace salvation. It is like oil and water–THEY DO NOT MIX! (Romans 11:6)

WORKS – For him who has the grace of God, his faith will be evident by his works (James 2:18). The one who does not have His grace, as you, has things reversed and is in dead works, the water on top of the oil.

Have a nice eternity,

Harold Green

WORKS – Only devils who believe in eternal damnation delight in such salutations, because in their selfishness and bitter envy and hatred they wish it on others. You are a devil who is now to be destroyed by the fire God has reserved for you, along with your diabolical works:

“But the present Heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7 MKJV).

“For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18 KJV).

Harold’s reply:

Dear Paul,

My credentials are: I am a sinner saved by God’s Grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His glorious resurrection from the dead. (Paul said he was the “least of all saints”)

Your attempts to insult me and my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are not working. The Lord Jesus Christ is my Saviour and God. I am trusting only His marvelous GRACE through the Gospel of His death, Burial and resurrection, washed in His Blood from ALL sin. The day I heard the Gospel preached to me, God’s wonderful love moved upon my heart and I knew it was the Lord calling me to Himself. I received that love and GRACE by calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ and asking Him to save my wretched soul. I repented of my dead works and I am trusting His WORK of the cross and His perfect Holy life as my righteousness. I KNOW THAT I AM SAVED BECAUSE HE SAYS SO IN HIS WORD!!

On the contrary I must thank you for the humiliation and reviling I have received at your hand!

Mat 5:11 “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mat 5:12 “Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

“Dead works” are ALL works. At salvation you must not rely on ANY human works to save you. You must reckon yourself and your works as dead; trusting only what Christ and His work at Calvary has done for us. That is why Hebrews 6:1 states we must repent “change our minds” from “dead works” and have faith and trust God’s righteousness. (works)

Romans 3:19-20 Declares the works of the Law will not save. The Law entered to reveal sin.

Like an x-ray machine that exposes inner disease, the Law exposes sin. However the x-ray machine is NOT used to treat or cure the disease. Likewise the Law is not to be used to take away sin or cure the penalty. Christ is the healer! NOT THE LAW.

Paul states it like this:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (Romans 10:4)

Isaiah plainly states about our works, this:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

This clearly states that ALL works even good one’s are worthless; they are dead works. If you do not view yourself in this way Christ will not do you any good–

(Luk 19:10) “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

If you do not view yourself as lost how can you be saved?

Good works are the result of SALVATION; not the source of salvation. Here is where your confusion arises. You are confusing the ROOT of salvation with the FRUIT of salvation. The ROOT of salvation is faith in Christ. The FRUIT of salvation is a changed life. You are putting the cart before the horse. FRUIT (good deeds) do not produce the ROOT (salvation in Christ).

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Note: You must be IN CHRIST to be a new creature. You DO NOT strive become a new creature to be in Christ!

(Ephesians 2:10) “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Here again the scriptures plainly show that good works always follow being saved, (created in Christ Jesus) not making one saved; but as a result of being saved!

James 2 is not talking about being justified in the eyes of God. “SHOW ME–I WILL SHOW THEE”. We are justified by our faith in the sight of God. We are justified by works in the sight of man. God sees the HEART. Man sees WORKS.

Jam 2:18 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works”.

This is man showing man his faith BY his works. (this is not talking about getting saved!)

PAUL, YOU ASKED THIS:

What is the difference between stopping sinning and turning from dead works?

THEY ARE COMPLETE OPPOSITES!

—To “stop sinning” you must start keeping the commandments. In order to “stop lying” you must “start telling the truth”. If you must “stop lying” to be saved, then you must also start telling the truth to be saved also. This is LAW KEEPING! This is self-righteousness. This is not allowed in God’s plan of Salvation. We are saved by GRACE. not by the law. (works)

—Turning from “dead works” is saying, “I am not relying on ANY WORKS to be saved; I am trusting Christ’s WORK to be saved; NOT MY OWN. MY WORKS are dead. I can’t save myself! This is mercy. Titus 3:5

You are still not understanding what “REPENTANCE from DEAD WORKS “ is. Turning from “dead works” does not mean to stop doing “evil works”. Turning from “dead works” means to completely hault ALL works. This means “stop trying to be saved by performing works at ALL! ONLY JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU!

That is all I have to say for now–

And I sincerely do hope you will have a nice eternity. (with God)

Harold

Paul’s and Victor’s replies:

Harold, you say:

“’What is the difference between stopping sinning and turning from dead works?

THEY ARE COMPLETE OPPOSITES!

The point of my question is that your turning from dead works is just another form of the “stopping sinning” that you rail against. If one is dead in his sins, how can he stop trusting in his dead works any more than he can stop any other form of sin? He cannot, without the grace of God.

That is not to say one must not try, as we pointed out; but you have never experienced the things of God. You have never had repentance from your dead works or your sins.

Since you say you can see, however, your sin remains (as do your dead works), and you are held accountable before the Lord.

The sum of the matter is that we understand perfectly; you understand nothing. We are not in disagreement about the Law not being able to save. We have been saved by grace. Read Law and Grace.

I have eternal life with Jesus Christ now, so why are you wishing something for me that I already have? You do not believe. Your credentials are simply your say-so. One witness is not sufficient. God has not spoken to you, as He did with Paul or us.

Finally, I have not reviled you. I have said the truth, with proof, backed by Scripture and another witness of God who has testified of you. You glory as a fool. You should repent, or you will surely be destroyed all the way in your foolishness.

Paul

Harold, Victor here. See my comments (in blue) within your letter (in dark red):

Dear Paul,

My credentials are: I am a sinner saved by God’s Grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His glorious resurrection from the dead. (Paul said he was the ‘least of all saints’)

We declare that we have those credentials but we are furthermore appointed in ministry, authorized, enabled, and commissioned by God to speak out, which is not the case for all believers. You obviously do not have that authority, or you would be able to say so.

Your attempts to insult me and my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are not working. The Lord Jesus Christ is my Saviour and God. I am trusting only His marvelous GRACE through the Gospel of His death, Burial and resurrection, washed in His Blood from ALL sin.

Paul did not attempt to insult you and did not insult you. You accuse falsely. Furthermore, you are right in that you refer to your faith – it is your faith and not the faith of the Son of God (Galatians 2:20).

The day I heard the Gospel preached to me, God’s wonderful love moved upon my heart and I knew it was the Lord calling me to Himself. I received that love and GRACE by calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ and asking Him to save my wretched soul.

I called upon the Lord Jesus Christ because He caused and enabled me to do so, and not because I was able to do anything of myself. It was no different with Paul Cohen or the apostle Paul. Your declaration is one of self-righteousness, anything but grace.

I repented of my dead works and I am trusting His WORK of the cross and His perfect Holy life as my righteousness.

God gave us the gift of repentance while you repented – the very difference between wheat and tares. Note that you say, “I repented…I am trusting….” It is all about you and what you did in getting saved. There are those who say these things out of true faith, in a different spirit and with a different cause and motivation, but you do it with your spirit, not the Lord’s.

I KNOW THAT I AM SAVED BECAUSE HE SAYS SO IN HIS WORD!!

You see the letter of the Scriptures and apply it to yourself, as directed by men, trusting in the letter. We know we are saved because He has saved us and dwells in us. Knowing Him and being in communion with Him, we see His confirmation in His Word, a secondary and not a primary matter – He is the Alpha. We do not know we are saved by reading verses in Scripture and applying them to ourselves, as the false do; we know we are saved because we know the Reality, without the Scriptures, even as Abraham knew his relationship with God directly. Again, the difference between wheat and tares.

On the contrary I must thank you for the humiliation and reviling I have received at your hand!

Mat 5:11 ‘Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.’

Mat 5:12 ‘Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

There has been no humiliation or reviling. You demonstrate your “tarehood” by saying so. Harold, you both err and sin – reveling in yourself and your righteousness.

‘Dead works’ are ALL works. At salvation you must not rely on ANY human works to save you.

We fully agree and have not testified otherwise.

You must reckon yourself and your works as dead; trusting only what Christ and His work at Calvary has done for us. That is why Hebrews 6:1 states we must repent ‘change our minds’ from ‘dead works‘ and have faith and trust God’s righteousness. (works)

We fully agree and have not testified otherwise, except we assert, unlike you, that the carnal man cannot do that.

Romans 3:19-20 Declares the works of the Law will not save. The Law entered to reveal sin.

We fully agree and have not testified otherwise.

Like an x-ray machine that exposes inner disease, the Law exposes sin. However the x-ray machine is NOT used to treat or cure the disease. Likewise the Law is not to be used to take away sin or cure the penalty. Christ is the healer! NOT THE LAW.

Paul states it like this:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.’ (Romans 10:4)

We fully agree and have not testified otherwise, except that the Law does more than you allow:

“The Law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making the simple wise” (Psalms 19:7).

“I will never forget Your Commandments; for with Them You have given me life” (Psalms 119:93 MKJV).

You may say, “That was Old Covenant; they were not keeping the Law for salvation.” True on both counts. My point is that they were given life and able to keep the commandments. The Law of God was not operating merely as an X-ray machine, but as a converter and healer, as His Word plainly tells us. You err and fall short of the Truth because you have no respect for Him and His Law, to which you refer as a mere X-ray machine.

“NUN: Your Word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path” (Psalms 119:105 MKJV).

“Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Law is the truth” (Psalms 119:142 MKJV).

“Great peace is to those who love Your Law, and there is no stumbling block for them” (Psalms 119:165 MKJV).

Isaiah plainly states about our works, this:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.’

This clearly states that ALL works even good one’s are worthless; they are dead works. If you do not view yourself in this way Christ will not do you any good–

(Luk 19:10) ‘For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.’

We fully agree and have not testified otherwise, except that it is not up to our “viewing,” but His grace. And is this not an interesting verse for our conversation, spoken by a prophet of God, by His Spirit!:

“Jehovah, I have hoped for Your salvation, and have done Your Commandments” (Psalms 119:166 MKJV).

If you do not view yourself as lost how can you be saved?

The “view” is not up to man, otherwise it is not grace by which he is saved. One can only “view” himself as lost by the grace of God. You give yourself away as a tare here, seed sown by the enemy, savoring the things of men, trusting in your own “viewing.”

Good works are the result of SALVATION; not the source of salvation.

We fully agree, and you will find nowhere that we have testified otherwise.

Here is where your confusion arises. You are confusing the ROOT of salvation with the FRUIT of salvation.

That is what you think as a faultfinder, but it is simply not true. How is it you must find some way to place yourself above others? Why are you so bitter?

The ROOT of salvation is faith in Christ. The FRUIT of salvation is a changed life. You are putting the cart before the horse. FRUIT (good deeds) do not produce the ROOT (salvation in Christ).

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Note: You must be IN CHRIST to be a new creature. You DO NOT strive become a new creature to be in Christ!

We fully agree, and you will find nowhere that we have testified otherwise, except that you are wrong in your accusation of us.

(Ephesians 2:10) “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here again the scriptures plainly show that good works always follow being saved, (created in Christ Jesus) not making one saved; but as a result of being saved!

We fully agree, and you will find nowhere that we have testified otherwise.

James 2 is not talking about being justified in the eyes of God. “SHOW ME–I WILL SHOW THEE”. We are justified by our faith in the sight of God. We are justified by works in the sight of man. God sees the HEART. Man sees WORKS.

Jam 2:18 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works”.

This is man showing man his faith BY his works. (this is not talking about getting saved!)

We fully agree. Even Luther did not see this – he didn’t think the Book of James should be in the Canon.

PAUL, YOU ASKED THIS:

What is the difference between stopping sinning and turning from dead works?

THEY ARE COMPLETE OPPOSITES!

Not at all, Harold. You are not saved, or you would know. Works are works, all works are works, as you said, but you don’t listen. You don’t listen to us, and you don’t even listen to yourself; you listen to a bitter entity within. You are a bitter soul, Harold.

Think about it (but you choose not to): How can a man turn from dead works unless he has some ability to do so? Yet the Lord has made it fully known to us, by His nature granted us through a new birth by Him, that no man can do anything right or good at any time but by His grace. One cannot stop sinning in his own power, and one cannot turn from dead works in his own power – therefore, they are the same, in that they are both undoable by man.

You differentiate between not sinning and not sinning in order to be saved. Whatever the motive or reason, man, without grace, cannot stop sinning, yet God says, “Stop sinning!” Contradiction? No. As you yourself have said, “The Law entered to reveal sin.” And man learns by experience, by trying to do that which the Law shows is required of him, that he is incapable of keeping the Law or turning from dead works or stopping from sinning (all of which are keeping the Law).

—To ‘stop sinning’ you must start keeping the commandments. In order to ‘stop lying’ you must ‘start telling the truth’. If you must ‘stop lying’ to be saved, then you must also start telling the truth to be saved also. This is LAW KEEPING! This is self-righteousness. This is not allowed in God’s plan of Salvation. We are saved by GRACE. not by the law. (works)

We agree, except that it is not a matter of allowance, but of contrariness to His nature. And if you knew that in spirit and in truth, you would not accuse us. You would agree with us, knowing this is what we have experienced, know, love, and teach. But you are a bitter, self-righteous soul that has been deceived by the deceiver in a subtle deceit, and you choose to have it so because the deceiver is also the flatterer, who promises preeminence. He is a liar. You have no preeminence; he has tricked you into demonstrating yourself to be the fool you are.

And then he whispers in your ear, saying, “They are reviling you; they are persecuting you; happy are you!” The liar has you, Harold, and you know why? Because you have chosen to believe lies. If you are saved, so is your mentor, the serpent.

—Turning from ‘dead works’ is saying, ‘I am not relying on ANY WORKS to be saved; I am trusting Christ’s WORK to be saved; NOT MY OWN. MY WORKS are dead. I can’t save myself! This is mercy. Titus 3:5

No, no, this is not mercy, but a rejection of it – it is self-righteousness. You are not relying, you are trusting, you, you, you. And then you say, “I can’t save myself,” just after saying you can! And you say we are confused? I don’t think so, Harold, and that is why you have stumbled on the Stone, which is now grinding you to powder, for your good, to deliver you from your carnal works, of which, ironically, you accuse us. Ironically? Yes, but it is more than that. It is the contradiction of sinners we suffer with such as you, even as we continue in the Lord’s sufferings that He suffered for our sakes.

You once asked me who bewitched me. As the Galatians, I once stood in a place where I could be bewitched, having begun in the Spirit. But you cannot be bewitched from a place of grace because you have never begun in the Spirit. You have been in error all along, deceived by another Jesus, another gospel, subtle, appearing the same, but counterfeit, very effective and deceptive.

You even see the value of James’ Book, which Luther and others have condemned as promoting works, misinterpreting James and thinking he advocated salvation by works, which he did not. James, as you said, spoke of fruits growing out of salvation and not producing it. That is how close you have come to the truth, but you fail, choosing the glory and praise of men instead of the praise of God. It is not I who has fallen from grace, I well know, but it is you who have never tasted salvation, never heard His voice, and never known Him personally. You are deceived.

You are still not understanding what ‘REPENTANCE from DEAD WORKS’ is. Turning from ‘dead works’ does not mean to stop doing ‘evil works’. Turning from ‘dead works’ means to completely hault ALL works. This means ‘stop trying to be saved by performing works at ALL! ONLY JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU!

Trying to turn from dead works, in your own power, to please God in any way for any reason or to better yourself spiritually is still dead works – all of it, simply because you attempt the impossible – that is why it is dead works.

But you don’t know that because you are still in your works, working away, laboring by the sweat of the brow, trying so hard to be somebody. You must die and be nobody. As the song goes, “It’s great to be somebody, because you’re nobody, because you’re His.” We speak to a dead man in his grave, who seems to think the worms eating him are his credentials.

That is all I have to say for now—

Which isn’t much – better you should start listening, but grace is needful for that. Isn’t it interesting that you don’t need grace to open your mouth in foolishness, though you think to have it because you open your mouth in foolishness?

And I sincerely do hope you will have a nice eternity. (with God)

Harold

We have it, Harold, and that is why you have come to us – to see and to hear it for yourself; but we must tell you that your hope is not sincere. We know it because we have that which you profess to hope for us. Yet we speak that you may have it, and you will in your time. God has promised and guaranteed it. Our hope for you, unlike yours for us, is a sure hope, one to be fulfilled. You do not have that kind of hope for us because you are incapable and undesirous of it, but you will become otherwise, in this world or another, once the Word we have spoken to you has done Its work, as purposed.

Victor

Harold’s reply to Paul:

Paul, you stated this:

The Lord Jesus told several whom He healed and forgave to go on and sin no more. Was He preaching dead works? According to you, He was. But we know His works are alive and yours are dead.

Paul, where does Jesus say to these healed or forgiven individuals “go, and sin no more, OR YOU WON’T BE SAVED”? NOWHERE!!

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those
thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

When Jesus told this woman to “go, and sin no more” He was not saying to her that she should ‘not commit one solitary sin ever again ‘or you will not be saved.’ On the contrary Jesus said: “Neither do I condemn thee”. Jesus saved her right there! She was guilty of adultery but Jesus forgave her, despite her sin. He told her this after she had been forgiven; “go, and sin no more”. A changed life is to be expected after one is forgiven, but not to keep you saved. She was saved by GRACE. JESUS WAS PREACHING GRACE! Grace requires that you not trust your works. If Jesus had done to her according to HER WORKS He would have condemned her!

Your charge against me that I believe Jesus was preaching “dead works” is correct. However, it is called GRACE. YOU CANNOT HAVE GRACE UNLESS YOU ABANDON TRYING TO SAVE YOURSELF. This woman was not condemned because of Jesus’ WORD, “Neither do I condemn thee”, NOT because she would go, and sin no more. The fact is it is impossible. Many people have sinned in scripture after becoming saved. Peter did, Paul did and many others.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8) (John was writing to believers)

Harold

At this point a new thread of conversation with Harold began regarding Romans 7.

Harold’s reply to Victor:

Victor,

I have explained “dead works” as the scripture has explained them. Would you hear it again? There are really only two religions in the world. There is the wrong way of salvation (or man’s way) and there is God’s way of salvation.

Man’s way is good WORKS, and God’s way is BY GRACE alone. This is very simple; It boils down to a matter of *TRUST*. Are you trusting your human WORKS in any form to save you? Or, are you trusting God’s GRACE alone to save you? (Rom. 11:6)

When one is testified to of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit will REPROVE the unsaved of their SIN, God’s RIGHTEOUSNESS and of JUDGMENT to come. (John 16:8)

The lost man is convinced by the Spirit of God he is a sinner, lost and condemned. He finds his good WORKS cannot save him and has the death sentence upon him. However, he hears the wonderful news of GRACE that Christ Jesus died for him shed His blood and paid the price for his sin and was buried and rose again to save his soul.

He now must make a choice. Would he remain TRUSTING his WORKS (dead works) that cannot save him, OR would he “change his mind” (repent) and TRUST Christ’s WORK (GRACE) to save him?

This is very simple (I hope you get it). What you repent FROM at salvation is your trust in HUMAN WORKS to save you, and repent (change your mind) TO trust Christ and His GRACE to save you.

Bottom line: You repent from WORKS SALVATION to GRACE SALVATION. “Repent” is a simple word meaning only a change of mind from one thing to another thing. God “repented” that He made man. He simply “changed His mind” about making man. What is so difficult that you cannot see this?

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

I Samuel 15:35 ….and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

If you simply put “changed his mind” in these places (and there are several more places where God repented) it makes perfect sense. The same in the New Testament.

Yes, God gives you the GRACE (ability) to TRUST Christ, however if you refuse that ability and reject Christ you reject GRACE SALVATION and remain under the Law with your WORKS. It has nothing to do with “STOP SINNING”. On the contrary, to attempt to “STOP SINNING” you are attempting to merit salvation by your WORKS! Repentance form dead works is the complete opposite of “STOP SINNING”. You repent FROM your WORKS and repent TO GRACE in Christ.

I do not see why you are confused about this unless your are yet to have it revealed to you by the Holy Spirit. The true fact is I have come to you. Repent Victor!

I pray God will open your eyes to it.

Harold

Victor’s reply:

Hi Harold,

No, I do not trust in my good works. My trust is in Him. By His grace I am saved.

Yes, I understand the definition or meaning of “repent,” and agree that it is a changing of the mind. You have never seen anything in our literature that is contrary to that understanding.

You say, “I do not see why you are confused about this unless your are yet to have it revealed to you by the Holy Spirit. The true fact is I have come to you. Repent Victor!

I am not confused. If you were to read our letters and understand them, you would know that. It appears that you do not read what we say to you, and that is vexatious. Have we not specifically addressed your words and answered your questions? Have you answered our questions and objections directly and specifically? It certainly appears that you have no interest or ability to pay attention to us and what we say.

You seem to be saying in the quote I just took from your letter that you are the Holy Spirit. Am I reading that wrongly? Explain or clarify.

We have never preached perfection of the flesh. Search our site and you will find the very opposite, so why accuse us falsely? Do you read nothing of what we send you? Here is an excerpt in my letter just sent:

If you refer to Paul speaking of himself as the chiefest of sinners, he was speaking not of sinning, but being a sinner, in his flesh, which we all are. He said, ‘I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing.’ He was not speaking of himself in Christ. Nor was he speaking of continuing in the flesh and sinning.

Did you or did you not read that? Answer me. If you red it, how can you make these assertions and accusations against us? Why do you not understand what we are saying? Are you not the one confused? Will you explain this passage I now give you again:

“He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:8-9 MKJV).

Victor

Harold’s reply:

“He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:8-9 MKJV).

Since you have been saved have you ever committed even one sin, Victor? There are plenty in scripture who have. The Holy Spirit and I are not one in the same. However, the Spirit should reveal to you that we are still able to sin, according to the scripture. Are you saying you have no sin?

…Saved people do sin. Again here is the verse that states this which I gave to Paul:

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (I John 1:8) (John was writing to believers)

Let’s not make *excuses* for sin which you call “error” in the lives of believers. The word sin means literally to “miss the mark”. If you err from the truth it is sin. The definition of error is “To be in a state of being WRONG”. The opposite of wrong is RIGHT.

Peter was NOT “confused”, as Paul said that Peter was “to be blamed” for the prejudice. Galatians 2:11. Your contention is simply fraudulent, and not founded in what the Bible actually says. There are scores of rebukes and admonishments to “believers” throughout the New Testament NOT TO SIN or avoid certain sinful practices. Logic alone would teach you that the capacity for a Christian to sin and the act of sin DOES occur among believers by the very command NOT TO SIN! The command not to do it proves Christians can and do sin. The Bible plainly teaches that Christians do sin.

I John 2:1 -“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”

Again, the possibility and certainty of a Christian sinning is plainly THERE. Victor, being in denial does not change what God has said!

As for 1 John 3:9, John has ALREADY stated that Christians have the capacity to sin and do at times:

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (1 John 1:8)

The verbal phrase “commit sin” in 1 John 3:9 is in the linear mode which speaks of a continuous act. What John is saying is that sin will not be a habitual thing or a ‘regular practice’ in the life of the Christian. In the second half of the verse shows the verb “sin” as in the linear mode which shows once again that sin is not a habit or ritual thing in the believer’s life. The reason is the “NEW MAN”; the new nature that is “born” in the spirit convicts the Christian of his sin. A sinning Christian is miserable and will not enjoy being in that state. This is God’s method of discipline and sanctification in the life of a believer. There is no evidence in the Word of God to your claim that Christians DO NOT SIN. This is false teaching and reveals an apparent danger to the promoter of such teaching.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (1 John 1:8)

Repent, Victor and Paul!

Victor’s reply:

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (I John 1:8) (John was writing to believers)

John was referring to the flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. We have never denied this or taught or believed otherwise. “I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing….”

Paul’s reply:

Harold, your problem is that you have never been converted to Christ. You do not know the power of His sinless Life, and you deny it exists based on your non-experience. You deny that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh.

How else could He overcome hell and death in us?

The real problem is not that you have not experienced Christ. Your underlying problem is that you profess His Name while denying He comes in the flesh. You are antiChrist. Only those who confess Jesus Christ comes in the flesh are received by Him. You deny Him because you try to supplant Him. You are that man of sin spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians – “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God” (2 Thessalonians 2:4 MKJV).

“All that is called God.” We are part of Him, called by His very Name, and you have most certainly exalted yourself above us, not knowing that it is God Whom you refuse and abuse.

Those who become part of God, because receiving Him by the baptism in His Spirit, go through a process of deliverance from the flesh and sin to live victoriously by the Spirit. Paul writes about this in Romans 7 and 8:

“I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Romans 7:21-25, 8:1-4 MKJV).

As for what Victor said of Peter, once again you accuse us by twisting our words. Victor never said that Peter did not have blame. One can be confused and have blame in the matter. Nevertheless, one can have blame and not be imputed with sin:

“Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works, saying, ‘Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin’” (Romans 4:6-8 MKJV).

Who are you to accuse of sin one whom God has declared righteous?

“Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God Who justifies. Who is he condemning? It is Christ Who has died, but rather also Who is raised, Who is also at the right hand of God, Who also intercedes for us” (Romans 8:33-34 MKJV).

While we are not making excuses for Peter, you are charging him with sin even though God has not. You are like Job’s comforters/accusers, whom God rebuked; He also directed them to go to Job to be absolved of their sin. So must you come to us in humility with offerings to God before you will be accepted by Him.

There is being wrong, which can happen to any saint in some particular matter, and there is being in a state of wrongness, which describes the natural man, the carnal believer, and those without faith. You are in wrongness; the sin nature is you, and you are it. By the grace of God, though we still have in us the carnal man, known as “the flesh,” we no longer walk in wrongness, continuing to sin, just as it is written of us:

“We know that everyone who has been born of God does not continue to sin, but the one born of God guards himself, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18 MKJV).

“I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, little children, because you have known the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one” (1 John 2:13-14 MKJV).

John speaks of overcoming in Revelation, and here is the state of those who overcome. Show us where, in these aspects of the overcomer, there is sin:

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7 MKJV).

Having overcome, we now eat from the Tree of Life, even as He promised we would. Do you have that ear?

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it” (Revelation 2:17 MKJV).

We have the fulfillment of His promise.

“And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star” (Revelation 2:26-28 MKJV).

We rule in and with Him and have the Morning Star because He has granted us to overcome.

“The one who overcomes, this one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels” (Revelation 3:5 MKJV).

“Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the Name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name” (Revelation 3:12 MKJV).

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne” (Revelation 3:21 MKJV).

We have overcome; the Lord has granted this to us. It is that Feast of Tabernacles, the third of all the solemn feasts. Do you have an ear to hear? Do you see sin here?

We are no longer in that place where you are, subject to the evil one:

“We know that we are of God, and all the world lies in evil” (1 John 5:19 MKJV).

We never said we do not have sin. We still have our flesh. It simply no longer rules in us because Christ has come and delivered us from this present evil world.

As for 1 John 1:8-10, you say some true things, but miss the Truth, not having Him yourself. You confuse and substitute your corrupt flesh and conscience for what you call the “‘NEW MAN’; the new nature that is ‘born’ in the spirit.” Here is the meaning of what John wrote as applied to true born again Christians, from our site:

We write: “I am surprised no one has brought up this next Scripture. It appears to contradict what we are saying and other Scriptures we have quoted. We know the Scriptures are in perfect harmony, so I will explain it now, verse by verse:

1 John 1:8-10 EMTV

8: If we claim that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If you come to God and deny you have sin (not so much with your lips as with your conduct and life), you are deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you. If the truth is in you, planted there by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, then the following will happen when you come to Christ:

9: If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Coming into the Light, you will see your sins and confess them. Then God will not only forgive your sins, but will also cleanse you from all of your unrighteousness.

Will you return to that from which you have escaped? Not if you are His sheep:

‘For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: ‘The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV).

10: If we claim that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If we have escaped the corruptions of the world, then we certainly cannot claim that we have not sinned, having been part of that corruption. We know where we came from, and we know what the Lord has done for us, and we declare it unequivocally. That is what you will see on our website, beginning with Our Testimonies.

Some of you presume we speak of the perfection or sinlessness of the flesh, because all you have known is the flesh, and you know, whether you admit it or not, just how corrupt that is. But we speak of the inner man in Christ, the one you have not experienced, which cannot be experienced by those who have not known the Lord.

Paul said that in his flesh dwelt no good thing. Ryan says that in your flesh dwells some good thing. He is saying that you are capable of good, or the occasional act of righteousness or obedience. You are not. You are exactly as Paul described you in Romans 3. It is certainly true that Paul Cohen and Ryan Sanders are not capable of moral perfection. But Paul Cohen has been made aware by Christ that with God all things are possible. By the grace of God, I do not deny what He has done for me. Ryan calls God a liar, so that he can continue to serve himself in his vanity, pride and sin.” [From Imperfection Tries to Argue Against Perfection]

While rereading this, I see you, Harold, as one who claims he has no sin. You do not recognize the sin nature that rules over you, because you are walking in your own righteousness. You call this “grace,” but you are the one who is depending on his own power (works) to be right with God. That is why you fail. That is why your confession of individual sins is ineffectual and you keep on sinning. If you were forgiven you would stop sinning, but because you are yet in your sin you continue in sin and also speak presumptuously of things you do not understand:

“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children” (2 Peter 2:12-14 KJV).

Here is something else from our site that answers your words and condemns your accusations of us, of other saints, and of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In this writing Victor addressed one who questioned how the Lord could have sinned according to the prophetic words of Psalm 41:

‘Why does the speaker in Psalms 41.4 say, ‘I have sinned against Thee,’ if, according to John 13.18, this is Jesus?’

The New Testament passage to which he refers is:

‘I do not speak of you all; I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture might be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me” (John 13:18 MKJV).

The Old Testament passage referred to (I quote the entire psalm) is:

Psa 41:1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. Blessed is he who acts wisely toward the poor; Jehovah will deliver him in time of trouble.
Psa 41:2 Jehovah will watch over him and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed on the earth; and You will not deliver him to the soul of his enemies.
Psa 41:3 Jehovah will hold him up on the bed of sickness; You will change all his bed in his illness.
Psa 41:4 I said, Jehovah, be merciful to me; heal my soul; for I have sinned against You.
Psa 41:5 My enemies speak evil of me, saying, When will he die, and his name perish?
Psa 41:6 And when he comes to see me, he speaks vanity; his heart gathers iniquity to itself; he goes out and speaks of it.
Psa 41:7 All those hating me whisper against me; they plot evil against me.
Psa 41:8 They say, A wicked thing is poured out on him, and he who lies down shall rise no more.
Psa 41:9 Even a man, my friend, in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
Psa 41:10 But You, O Jehovah, be merciful to me, and raise me up, so that I may repay them.
Psa 41:11 By this I know that You delight in me, because my enemy does not triumph over me.
Psa 41:12 And I, in my integrity You uphold me; and You set me before Your face forever.
Psa 41:13 Blessed is Jehovah, the God of Israel, from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen and Amen!

Jeff again logically asks, ‘If one verse applies to Him, what about the rest? Surely the rest of the psalm does also!’ He essentially asks the same question and the answers are the same, with somewhat more to be said.

This was a psalm of David, who was experiencing his troubles and recording them. Little did he know at the time that he was experiencing that which ‘the Son of David’ would be going through a millennium later. The Holy Spirit of God, in His unsearchable wisdom, was making record of His time on earth while governing David’s life as an example to all saints in future.

Jesus had to experience our weaknesses and infirmities, though without the committing of sin. As quoted, the Hebrews writer said that He was tempted in all points as we are, so that therefore He can identify with us. How can that be if He did not experience the failure and torment of sin, though He did not sin? Indeed, He was fully man. He would have had to go through the agony of unobedience. Was He inconsiderate and untouched at the mental anguish His parents had when they found Him missing? Did He regret what He had done or not done, for their sakes? He did turn to make Himself subject to them, learning to obey.

When on the cross, Jesus cried: ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?’ Did He not experience the separation from God? Why else would He have said this? In His flesh, as I have already pointed out under ‘Question One,’ He was falling short, as ordained of the Father. He had His will, which was always contrary in nature to the Father’s will. That is why He said, ‘NOT My will, but Yours…’ Is that a ‘form of sin’? Yes, it is, in that it is the opposition to God, but not in the sense that it is a wilful rejection or denial of God’s will.

The following may sound like I am skirting the issue, but now I must say something: It is impossible to understand the true spiritual essence of these things without the grace and revelation from God. While I explain, I question doing so. These things are not for those who do not believe, but for those who do. I do explain, knowing this, that one day these words will help the earnest pilgrim in Christ, serving to teach and to confirm his or her steps. The ungodly will choose their own thoughts and ways though we explain perfectly, and though the dead are raised.

Read again that which Paul Cohen writes in reply to Question One, Point 6.

Sixth, Paul Cohen points out, importantly so, that as you read the entire Psalm posted below in ‘Question 2′, you see that the speaker says, after confessing his sin, ‘And I, in my integrity You uphold me; and You set me before Your face forever’ (V.12).

Here is the meaning in Hebrew of the word translated as ‘integrity’:

‘completeness; figuratively prosperity; usually (morally) innocence: – full, integrity, perfect (-ion), simplicity, upright (-ly, -ness), at a venture.’

How can a man in sin have integrity, and be set before the face of God forever? Simple. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. He was found in the form of sinful man, but as the Son of God, was unlike us in that we all succumbed to sin, while He overcame it in His integrity. We, being found in Him, will also have His integrity, if we walk in faith by His Spirit.

When Jesus was teaching His disciples, He said:

‘There is nothing from outside a man which entering into him can defile him. But the things which come out of him, those are the ones that defile the man… And He said, That which comes out of the man is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things pass out from inside and defile the man’ (Mark 7:15,20-23).

The predisposition of sin is inside all men, including the Son of Man. (And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except one, God.’) The question is whether the evil rules, bearing fruit, which it has in all men, except for the Son of Man, Who overcame for us so that we might also live in Him.” [From The 76 Jewish Questions]

The salvation that we know and have in Christ is life, and not sin, which is death. We did not receive this life by the Law. Our testimony is the same as those who wrote the Scriptures:

“For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God” (Hebrews 7:19 KJV).

“But the God of all grace, Who has called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that you have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you” (1 Peter 5:10 KJV).

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13 KJV).

“Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen” (Jude 1:24-25 KJV).

Paul

Harold, Victor here,

There is yet another aspect to this subject that is worthy of mention (not that you have said there is no difference between infirmity and sin). You write, “Let’s not make *excuses* for sin which you call “error” in the lives of believers.” Yes, as the apostle Paul reported, Peter was blameworthy, and we do not justify him or his actions. God also used Paul to rebuke Peter, but was it counted as sin to Peter? Could it have been infirmity? God required the apostle Paul to serve Him with his infirmities.

About ten years ago, God showed me that I must serve Him with my infirmities, though I dearly wanted Him to remove them all from me. Would God have wanted us to serve Him with sin? There is a difference between sin and infirmity. The Scripture says that where sin abounds, grace abounds more. It also says that God’s grace was sufficient for Paul in his infirmities. I can call infirmity “sin,” in that it is weakness, as Paul said, which makes it impossible for us to serve God in our own strength. By His grace only can we serve Him, because of our infirmities. It is a form of falling short or missing the mark, but is it the sin that kills? Is it a deliberate disobedience? We say, “No.” Yet the two may appear much the same to those who cannot discern between good and evil. Perhaps this aspect will help you to understand, though a man can only receive what is given him from above, no matter how clever or studied.

Consider more. You say our teaching is dangerous. You say: “This is false teaching and reveals an apparent danger to the promoter of such teaching.” How so? It is not as though we trust in ourselves. We know we are entirely dependent on the Lord Jesus Christ and can do nothing without Him. We teach the same to all others. How is that dangerous? We also trust that His work in us is perfect because He is perfect. How is it dangerous to have that faith in Him? Those who have confidence in themselves, thinking they do not sin, do sin, and we would be the first, by God’s grace, to tell them so. Is that not what we are telling you now?

Harold’s reply:

There is NO evidence in the context of 1 John 1 that verse 8 is referring to the ‘flesh’ which is contrary to the Spirit. Please show us where– Since there is none… Repent, Victor

Now please explain 1 John 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1. “My little children” John is speaking to Christians.

2. ..,“that ye sin not” John commands them, “ye”, not to sin because they are capable of it.

3. “And if any man sin”… John declares if anyone does sin (which you claim a Christian CAN’T do) we have an “advocate”– a defense attorney pleading our case, Jesus!

4. Notice, Jesus is the “propitiation for our sins” meaning the sins of Christians, PRESENT TENSE! It is further demonstrated because John states that Jesus is not only the propitiate for “ours only”,(Christians if they sin!) but for the “sins of the whole world” (UNSAVED) also!

REPENT, Victor

At this point a new thread of conversation with Harold began regarding sin.

Paul’s reply:

Harold, we have sent you the evidence for the true interpretation of 1 John 1:8. Of course it refers to the flesh of man, because there is no sin in the Spirit of God. That is the meaning of the verses we sent you:

“He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:8-9 MKJV).

You do not see these things because you do not have the Spirit or spiritual eyes to perceive the division of flesh and spirit. This is not an insult but a statement of fact, which will serve you well when you are brought to the end of yourself and your present grandstanding.

Now I will explain 1 John 2:1-2, not because you will see, but because you must be made blind in order to be judged by God. As the Lord said of His coming:

“And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind” (John 9:39 KJV).

Let’s look at the context and hear the whole gospel of Christ.

1 John 2:1-14 MKJV
(1) My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Amen! “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…” (1 John 1:9).

(2) And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

This is present tense because Christ is the present Savior for whoever calls on Him in truth. As it is written:

“I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8 MKJV).

(3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.

We know Him when we no longer break His commandments (sin). We keep His commandments by the power of His resurrection life that is sinless, having entered into His righteousness by the cross.

(4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That is you, Harold, even by your own admission. You repent.

(5) But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.

How can those perfected in the love of God and the keeping of His Word be sinning? Only the accuser of the brethren and those under his sway preach that.

(6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked.

And we know He walked without sin. Is God expecting the impossible of us, or is He doing it? Those who don’t believe, like you, say the former, while those who do believe, like us, experience the latter.

(7) Brothers, I do not write a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the Word which you have heard from the beginning.

According to your false gospel, John is preaching the Law and salvation by dead works, but we know the truth and believe our brother’s words, “Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the gates into the City” (Revelation 22:14 KJV).

(8) Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true Light now shines.

Does God condemn those in whom the darkness is passing away, or does Satan?

(9) He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness until now.

This is you, Harold.

(10) He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no offense in him.

This is us. The Good News Bible brings out the meaning of the last portion of the sentence: “If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin” (1 John 2:10 GNB). Where do you see us causing others to sin? But what about you? You consign people to that fate, because you are still in your sin.

(11) But he who hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because darkness has blinded his eyes.

This is you, Harold.

(12) I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His Name’s sake.

The saints have assurance and comfort in His Word.

(13) I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, little children, because you have known the Father.

The intention of God is that His children will grow up and mature into the likeness of Him Who begot them, and He accomplishes what He intends.

(14) I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

This is present tense, too, Harold. What do you do with the fact that we have overcome the evil one?

Paul

Harold’s response:

Jesus Christ HAS come in human flesh. NOT YOUR FLESH. You switch bibles to at your own whim, to fit your false interpretations–join the “bible of the month club” might as well, or write your own! You have called me every pious- cloaked, insult with degrading, biblical terms anyone has ever called me in this life. I was a rock singer, alcohol and drug user, and almost died once, and was on my way down to the lowest hell before Jesus Christ saved me. After God saved me God changed me, lost all desire, left the drugs, bars and rock music and went back to school and got a degree, own my own home, was married and have 3 wonderful children, all serving God. (ALL BY HIS GRACE AND I PRAISE HIM!!) JESUS CHRIST CHANGED ME! Those nails that ripped through my Savior’s sinless flesh had MY name on them. I deserve nothing. However, thank you for your rudeness and hateful spirit, because that is what I have deciphered as I read your mail and I lay them at the Savior’s feet. ALL PRAISE HONOR GLORY AND GRACE TO JESUS CHRIST MY SIN OFFERING WHOM I LOVE AND HUMBLY SERVE.

harold

Paul’s reply:

Harold, unless Jesus Christ comes in your flesh, you are not saved. Plainly you are not. You resist the Holy Spirit just like your fathers did, who murdered the Holy One. You have taken His Name in vain and are not held guiltless.

So what you quit your vices? The Pharisees led clean lives, too. Is being a Pharisaical viper pleasing to God? You may fool some people, but He is not fooled. That is why He has sent us to confront you on your sin.

Paul

Victor’s reply:

Yes, Harold, Christ has come in the flesh, the Head coming in His own personal body nearly 2,000 years ago. But He also comes in the saints, who form His Body:

“For also by one Spirit we are all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, even all were made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:13 MKJV).

But you have never received His Spirit, so what would you know of Christ coming in His Body, of which every born again believer is a member? Has He not said, “He that receives you, receives Me and he that rejects you rejects Me”? Has He not said that as the Father sent Him so He sends His servants/brethren/sons? Did He not say that He and the Father were one? He prayed in John 17 that we would be one with Him. The prayer is answered; we are one with Him, therefore He comes in us.

But you know nothing of these things, Harold, because your conversion falls short. Yes, you were on drugs, alcohol, and [in] all debauchery, and it is good that you were delivered, but there is so much more waiting. Don’t despise what we say, unless you wish to lose all that you have gained and be destroyed.

You accuse us falsely of rudeness and hatefulness. We do not hate you, but we tell you the truth about yourself, and you find that hateful. The Truth is against you, Harold, because you are, contrary to your profession, against the Truth, Jesus Christ, Whom you claim to serve. You are dead, Harold, religious, zealous, but dead.

Victor

Harold’s response:

I received the Holy Spirit as the down payment of God’s purchased possession. You cannot be saved without the Gospel being preached. When you receive Jesus Christ by faith the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the body of EVERY BELIEVER. You are Born Again by the Spirit of God upon you trusting Jesus Christ as you Savior. You are a liar. I KNOW the Spirit, and HE dwells in me by faith in Christ Jesus. With your dishonesty using scripture how in the world can you say YOU have the Holt Spirit?

Repent Victor

Victor’s reply:

So the Samaritans received the Spirit when Philip preached to them? If so, why did Peter and John need to go visit them after they believed? Did Saul receive the Spirit on the road, or was it when Ananias laid hands on him three days later? Did the Ephesian disciples receive the Spirit after believing, or was it years later when Paul laid hands on them?

And answer me this: Can God sin? Yes or no? Your likely answer is “no.” Now if one is born of God, spirit of spirit, can that one sin, Harold? If so, that one will sin. If that one will sin, and the wages of sin is death, then there is no salvation, is there? There is only a cheap counterfeit, a pretense, a mockery, which is exactly what you have, my friend.

So you know the Spirit? How? By your reading and interpretation of the Scriptures? Where in the Bible does It say that one is born again when “trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior”? That happens to be the counterfeit gospel in which you have trusted, tare. You have received another spirit, a seducing one. But be satisfied, if you will, and go to destruction, as you choose.

Harold’s response:

“Ye do err not knowing the scripture”. The Holy Spirit’s ministry from Jew to Gentile is clearly shown through the transition in the Book of Acts. Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles and of the Church made of both Jew and Gentile clearly teaches the Holy Spirit is given AT salvation in the epistles he wrote to the Church. STUDY IT!! Your bible study is pathetic–You are nothing more than rehash of the rest of the confused charismactic tongue talkers who lift up a false gift over the Lord Jesus Christ who the Holy Spirit is sent to exhalt–

Repent Victor

Repent Victor

Victor’s reply:

What you give me here is a know-it-all attitude and opinion, but nothing from Scripture to back your “theology.” You are the one in error. Furthermore, you have come to final rebuke and judgment from God by us. You are finished, Harold, finished beating people over their heads and vaunting yourself over them, finished exalting yourself, finished walking around as though you have something others do not.

You never did say anything about our How One Is Saved paper, Harold. You have not said much about many things we have said. Why? Because all you care about is yourself and your doctrine. You care about nobody else, not even your own family. You are a devil, the son of the Devil, who can only serve himself; you are born of him, nurtured by him, and possessed by him, who is the appointed counterfeit to try the hearts. You are snared and walk in his nature, knowing nothing but having the pride as though you know it all. You accuse us of the very things of which you are guilty yourself. Beat it, Satan.

Harold’s response:

I have testified to you of my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as my sin offering and Savior. You have rejected my testimony. You do not believe Jesus Christ can save someone by their faith in His death, burial, and resurrection as the scriptures say.

The Bible clearly states. Repent and “believe the Gospel”. You receive NOT my testimony because perhaps you are not yourself trusting in the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and have added works. In that case YOU ARE NOT SAVED. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”. However, it is entirely possible you are saved but you have been bewitched by “another Gospel”. If this is the case, there is hope for you to read the Word of God and study to recover yourself from the error you have subjected yourself to. I would like to help you–I have some excellent studies on the Holy Spirit and His Ministry that will plainly show the charismatic tougues is not scriptural.

Repent Victor

Victor’s reply:

We have indeed rejected your testimony because it is not of God, Whom we know and serve, and Who has sent us to judge you. As to your charge, “You do not believe Jesus Christ can save someone by their faith in His death, burial, and resurrection as the scriptures say,” that is pure nonsense coming from a self-righteous, damned fool. What we do not believe is that you have experienced what you think or claim. You have, by a wicked heart, applied the salvation message to your flesh, which must instead be crucified with Christ. You have played your own doctor in the Name of the Lord Jesus, to your damnation.

What you have is black faith, which believes another gospel. You are a dead man, Harold, speaking from your grave, unable to think or reason; you demand that we see with your eyes, which are rotten. But we have passed from the death you are in to the other side, knowing the immortality and incorruptibility of the Resurrection, Whom you deny exists. So be it. We have testified. We will not call on you any longer to repent, seeing it is far from you.

As for your studies on the Holy Spirit, you have not replied as to His Nature:

And answer me this: Can God sin? Yes or no? Your likely answer is ‘no.’ Now if one is born of God, spirit of spirit, can that one sin, Harold? If so, that one will sin. If that one will sin, and the wages of sin is death, then there is no salvation, is there? There is only a cheap counterfeit, a pretense, a mockery, which is exactly what you have, my friend.

So you know the Spirit? By your reading and interpretation of the Scriptures? Where in the Bible does it say that one is born again when ‘trusting Jesus Christ as your Savior’? That happens to be the counterfeit gospel in which you have trusted, tare. You have received another spirit, a seducing one. But be satisfied, if you will, and go to destruction, as you choose.”

Harold gets back to Paul:

Christ DOES NOT COME IN OUR FLESH! This is a blatant perversion of the WORDS of JESUS CHRIST and is come from a LYING SPIRIT! It was God that was “manifested in the flesh” at the incarnation of the Son Of God!

The flesh is the FALLEN NATURE OF MAN, you retard!

Where does it say in the WORD of God, ‘Christ comes in our fallen, corrupt, dead in sins, FLESH? SHOW IT!; you false tongue!

Plainly you also, with Victor, have been bewitched by a lying spirit. The WORD of God the Bible teaches just the opposite!

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Rom 8:16 “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 1:9 “For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Rom 2:29 “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 7:6 “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 12:11 “Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

Well has God spoken of you, Mr. Cohen–

1John 4:3 “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The charade is over; The perversion of this text that “Christ COMES IN YOUR FLESH” is proves beyond all doubt YOU ARE AN ANTICHRIST! My admonition to you is to REPENT OF THESE DEAD WORKS and CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, JESUS and GET SAVED!

REPENT, COHEN!

Paul’s reply:

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted” (Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV).

“But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us” (2 Corinthians 4:7 MKJV).

The Scripture is speaking of us, not you, Harold. Christ does not reside in you; therefore your flesh does rule over you. You are right to say that He has not come in you and given you the victory over your flesh. You are wrong, however, yes, even antiChrist, to say that He has not come in others and given them the victory.

You prove you are in your flesh every time you say something. You manifestly speak from the flesh (“you retard”) to those who are in Christ and have spoken the Truth to you. Nevertheless, our Word from Heaven rules over you and there is nothing you can do about it, except continue to complain and spout blasphemous nonsense for a time.

Jesus Christ said He would come in the flesh (an earthly body) through His disciples:

“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me” (Matthew 10:40 MKJV).

“Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. Of whomever sins you remit, they are remitted to them. Of whomever sins you retain, they are retained” (John 20:21-23 MKJV).

In the Name of Jesus Christ and by His Holy Spirit, we, men of flesh and blood, retain your sins, Harold.

As saints of Christ, we do not live like you do, in the lusts of our flesh, but our time in the flesh is now dedicated to the will of God, according to the power of His resurrection, without sin.

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God” (1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV).

As it is written:

“For to them God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27 MKJV).

Harold’s response:

This is no scriptural evidence that 1 John 1:8 is referring the FLESH. The word FLESH is not found anywhere in 1 John 1 This is NOT the meaning of the verse, thou LIAR!

This is wild, gibberish.

I John 1:9 is for the Christian who has sinned. You are in complete denial of the verse, “If we confess OUR SINS.

Thus speaketh Cohen:

This is present tense because Christ is the present Savior for whoever calls on Him in truth.

You are dodging the CONTEXT, retard!

1. John plainly says in verse 8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

2. Then John says very next verse when you do sin “IF ANY MAN SIN” (Christians can and DO sin according to John.)

Next in verse 10–(AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER) “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. The context PROVES here if you claim you have not sinned SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN A CHILD OF GOD, you are CALLING GOD A LIAR!

Cohen, you are a LIAR and the worse excuse for a teacher I have ever seen! You are out of your LEAGUE!

REPENT COHEN! (lying spirit)

Victor and Paul’s reply:

Victor:

My, there’s a spirit for you, the real thing coming forth…

thou LIAR!

retard!

the worse excuse for a teacher I have ever seen!

You are out of your LEAGUE!

Now the liar gets honest in his true expression?

Paul:

We have been cleansed from our sins, Harold, but yours we retain that you might stay in hell longer and learn not to blaspheme.

Harold continues with his objection:

Christ Jesus dwells in our spiritual center by faith. But He did not come “into the flesh” of any mortal as you stated before. Christ dwells with my spirit which He quickened when I believed. Again, the flesh is that sinful Adamic nature every person inherited by natural birth and still remains in the child of God until the day of redemption. Christ being within “earthen vessels”, physical skin and bones is more like it; Our Lord Jesus never in the sinful flesh.

John 6:63 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

My sins have been forgiven long ago.

You cannot retain sins that have already been forgiven and forgotten by God. SORRY. (Psa 103:12) “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Again, you err not knowing the scriptures.

John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1Jo 4:15 “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You prove you are in your flesh every time you say something. You manifestly speak from the flesh (“you retard”) to those who are in Christ and have spoken the Truth to you. Nevertheless, our Word from Heaven rules over you and there is nothing you can do about it, except continue to complain and spout blasphemous nonsense for a time.

What goes around comes around–How do you like it? You started the name-calling “brute beast” and other choice expletives that are not true. At least a retard has God’s sympathy. “Comfort the feeble-minded”. Get over it.

Jesus Christ said He would return in the flesh (an earthly body) through His disciples:

Where?

The scriptures you use do not describe what you say above. Again, Christ dwells in the believer through the Spirit. He never said he would come in HIS FLESH in our bodies. Any honest Bible student would not come to such a ludicrous conclusion from Matt 10:40, or John 20:21-23. You are over-spiritualizing for sake of your false teaching. The Greek words are not descriptive this kind of ‘incarnation’ you are suggesting.

Eph 3:17 “That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Repent P. Cohen

Paul’s reply:

We do not over-spiritualize, Harold, you under-believe. You have nothing of the true faith whatsoever; you are filled with a carnal knowledge of the Scriptures and do as was prophesied of you:

“But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves” (Jude 1:10 KJV).

You fulfill the definition of a brute beast. There is nothing derogatory in accurate labeling; and it is not unexpected that a brute beast would, in return, mock and spit.

As for your sins, indeed you are still in them, and you know it. What have you done about your sexual and other sins?

As for Christ coming in the flesh (through human beings), there are many witnesses against the antiChrist you are:

“And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise nor disdain, but as an angel of God you received me, even as Christ Jesus” (Galatians 4:14 EMTV).

“For I tell you, you will not see Me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord!’” (Matthew 23:39 HNV)

Harold’s reply:

You are cleansed of your sin only if you are trusting solely in the shed blood of the risen Lord Jesus Christ as atonement for your sins. Adding anything else to this is another gospel.

1Cor 2:2 “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Victor’s reply:

The apostle Paul did not speak those words concerning salvation, but as concerning conduct in Jesus Christ, not permitting his carnal understanding to interfere or mix with what the Spirit was doing. You don’t know what you are talking about, as we have said all along.

Again, as Paul said, “We have been cleansed from our sins, Harold, but yours we retain that you might stay in hell longer and learn not to blaspheme.

Harold’s response:

Look, Victor

I believe you have a lying spirit manipulating you. You have called me things much worse from the beginning, so don’t be a hypocrite.

P. Cohen is extremely evasive and untrustworthy in any honest approach to the studies of 1 John 2:1-2. He ignores CONTEXT, GREEK GRAMMAR, PARALLEL TEXTS and the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of scriptures. The reason for this is because his incorrect interpretation simply will not stand when submitted to these essential rules. He has no other choice but to be evasive or else admit and fess-up to his false interpretation. He is simply being dishonest about the verses. Is he “out of his league”? YES;–especially when he claims to have totally irraticated his flesh and doesn’t sin anymore. Being dishonest proves him otherwise.

You, yourself have not explained your denial of the 1 John 2:1-2 and the linear movement of the verbs in those verses. They are “present, active indicative” which can only mean a “continuous action”. It is being dishonest to deny the grammatical facts of 1 John 2:1-2 and fight what God is actually saying in these verses. Forget about me–these facts cannot be denied.

Repent, Victor

Praying for you, (If put in the GREEK language in the “present, active indicative” tense, it would mean “I am continuously praying for you.”)

Victor’s reply:

Harold,

I have not spoken in enmity or spoken loosely, as have you with terms like “retard.” Can you hear Jesus using that term on anyone? He would not do so because faith is not a matter of intellectual comprehension or man’s ability. Jesus exulted in God’s revelation of spiritual matters to the simple-minded rather than to the wise and intelligent of this world (Matthew 11:25).

You use the phrase, “out of your league,” a manifestation of pride in the flesh, having nothing to do with true ability and authority in the Kingdom of Heaven. You manifest the nature of your “salvation” by the very use of those terms. But He used the terms we have used. We called you what you are, terms that are true and applicable.

You cannot compare yourself with us. We are in Him and you are in yourself. Are you not a viper, a tare, and a fool? Yes, Harold, you are. You are not a “retard” because this is not an issue of reduced mental ability but of sin, of spiritual nature.

As for Paul, he never claimed to have “totally irraticated his flesh.” He would be among the first to give praise, thanksgiving, worship, honor, and glory to God for doing His work in him, who was helpless to do anything to save himself and or make himself “accepted in the Beloved.” He has been entirely trustworthy in his duties, perfectly so, by the grace of the One Who sends him, and never evasive. Many times we have presented you with facts and Scripture and questions, which you have steadfastly and entirely ignored. You are the false accuser, born from beneath, a liar and a spiritual deadbeat, Harold. A spiritual deadbeat because you rely on your own works and have not honored the One you claim has saved you by grace through faith in His shed blood.

As for 1 John 2:1-2:

“My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world” (1 John 2:1-2 MKJV).

According to you, John should not have bothered writing to them because the intent and purpose for his writing, as he himself declares, is that they would not sin. I wonder what you would have written them instead, if there was no point in encouraging them as he did. The following words from his same letter apply to you:

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. [As for us, who believe] But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:6-7 MKJV).

Victor

Harold replies to Paul about being a brute beast:

In the context, I do not fit the mold of a brute beast. I am trusting in the shed Blood of my Savior Jesus Christ. I have nothing to fear in His Grace. Indiscriminately assigning me to Bible characterizations of beasts to cast dispersion on my character is like ‘sticks and stones.’ It is the same old rhetoric you have used from the beginning. My faith is firm in the Lord Jesus Christ and His blood atonement; I have Peace with God and I love Him.

Over and over you have told me that I do not ‘really’ believe, I ‘really don’t’ have faith, you ‘really don’t’ have the spirit. It gets tiresome hearing someone telling me what I am, and am not, what I have and don’t have. You are not the Lawgiver or the Judge of my soul. All Judgment has been given to the Son, Jesus and I plead my case before Him. He knows my heart. You are not to be the judge of men’s thoughts and intents of their heart. You have heard my testimony, and denounced it enough times. I appeal to Jesus!

You have not proved to me ONCE from Scripture Christians can’t walk in their flesh and sin. On the contrary the Holy Words of God are full of sinful charges against God’s Children who have God’s Spirit. Doubt me? “Ye do err not knowing the scriptures”

From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jam 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Jam 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jam 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Jam 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If you want to go down in flames with your false teachings, that is your business, but when you post your lies on the internet possibly those who might be weak in the faith, or a new Christian, or a simple soul seeking God, it becomes duty to lift up God’s Word and my Christian faith and say NO!

Co 5:1 “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is, that not so much as named among the Gentilest one should have his father’s wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

There are a multitudes of rebukes directed at God’s children. I have given you Scripture after Scripture. Whole books of the Bible written confronting sinning backsliding Children of God.

Here’s a shameful inquiry:

As for your sins, indeed you are still in them, and you know it. What have you done about your sexual and other sins?

I have done counseling with those who have come to me for prayer obsessed with another’s sex habits. What is your interest in this suddenly? Why are you so curious? Having some trouble yourself, or does it go deeper than that? What are you doing about it? I have some good couseling literature I could share with you, Paul. I promise, I won’t tell anyone about it.

As for Christ coming in the flesh (through human beings), there are many witnesses against the antiChrist you are:

There you go again; I am anti-christ because I refute your foolish notion that Christ comes in the flesh of Humans.

When you find the scripture that says: “Christ comes in the flesh through human beings” let me know! And becareful, don’t get sick running around in circles trying to find it.

REPENT COHEN

Victor tells Harold two important things he has consistently missed:

One, we agree with all the Scriptures you have herein sent us. We know and understand, and we do not deny them; we never did and by God’s grace, never will. That goes for all the others you have sent us. So what then are we saying? Are we in contradiction, or is there something you aren’t getting?

Two, when we speak of Christ coming in the flesh, we speak of His coming in His Body, His servants, in flesh and blood. “You shall see Me no more henceforth, until you shall say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in the Name of the Lord.’“

Christ does not usually personally appear independently of human agency, although He does and has done that too, as with so many in Scripture – Moses, Paul, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Elijah, and so many more. He comes by His saints, His ministers, His spokespersons, His brethren. That is what we are saying. How can you deny this?

Harold’s reply:

..when we speak of Christ coming in the flesh, we speak of His coming in His Body, His servants, in flesh and blood.

Where in the world you came up with “Christ coming in the flesh” speaks of His coming in His Body, His servants from that verse, (Mat 23:39) is utterly impossible! Jesus Christ “coming in the flesh” is only spoken of in 1 John 4:3-4 and possibly 1 Tim 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh”.

You are taking this biblical phrase and concept out of the original context and applying it for another purpose. Any presence of the Lord Jesus in individual believers is purely spiritual. When you say “His Body”, Christ does not come into the church; WE are placed into Christ at salvation. (1Cor. 12:13) We become members in that body. (Eph. 5:30) “The church, which is His Body”. (Eph. 1:22-23). The promise of Jesus: (Mat 18:20) “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” This is not a reference of Him “coming in the flesh” of anyone! It is again, purely spiritual.

Here again you have a major, contextual problem: (Lord have mercy on you.)

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Mat 23:39).

Go to Matthew 23 and read the narrative. These pronouns “you”, “Ye”, “Ye shall say” are unbelieving Jews living in Jerusalem that Jesus is addressing! He talking of His second coming AFTER Jerusalem has been converted to Christ. Then will they say “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Also, (Luke 13:35) “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This reference is Jesus Christ returning physically to the Mount of Olives and then He enters the Eastern Gate at Jerusalem.

Are you making this up as you go along? (what “prophet” did you say your were? I thought prophets, if that make errors are called FALSE PROPHETS?

Repent Victor

Paul and Victor sum it up:

We have come in His Name and you have rejected Him, saying “Cursed is he that comes….” You have rejected the Stone, “builder,” and we have come to bring your structure down.

Harold, you write:

You have not proved to me ONCE from Scripture Christians can’t walk in their flesh and sin.

Walking in the flesh is sin, and we have never denied that Christians can walk in the flesh. It is you who has denied that Christians can walk in the Spirit, where there is no sin. It is you who has ignored and has not been able to answer, not what Paul and Victor say, but what the Scriptures say:

“We know that everyone being generated from God does not sin, but the one having been generated from God keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him” (1 John 5:18 LITV).

“Everyone who has been begotten of God does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9 LITV).

Having experienced these things, both from James’ epistle and John’s, I will explain how the seeming contradiction and dichotomy is resolved (we have explained already; if you could see and hear you would know this).

Man, born in sin, has no righteousness before God and is totally incapable of delivering himself from his sin nature by anything he does. By the grace of God and His gift of faith, men who have received this gift and walked in it have been accorded His righteousness, as is described with Abraham (Romans 4), the father of those in like faith of God.

It was not until Christ came, however, and was resurrected from the dead, that the sin nature could be overcome and supplanted by the indwelling Spirit of Christ, Who overcame sin on behalf of man and therefore is able to aid those who are being tempted, not to sin. It is by His power, not man’s, that one can walk in His holiness, and therefore it is not by our Law-keeping, but by His grace, that we are saved and fulfill the royal Law.

The process of salvation begins when a person is supernaturally turned to God through Jesus Christ. This is only a conception, however, and not birth, which comes when one receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Of that blessed event, the Lord said that we would be baptized with fire.

Why fire? Because it is not until the Spirit indwells a person that the real battle between flesh and spirit takes place and the matter can be resolved once and for all. It requires fire and purging to put away the sin nature and to enthrone the Lord in His rightful place where it is His will, and not man’s, that is done.

This is salvation!

That is why it is written to believers to persevere and to receive the goal of God’s chastening and purging:

Hebrews 12:1-10 MKJV
(1) Therefore since we also are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
(2) looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.
(3) For consider Him Who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds.
(4) You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
(5) And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;
(6) for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives.
(7) If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
(8) But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons.
(9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
(10) For truly they chastened us for a few days according to their own pleasure, but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

If we are to have life, partaking of God’s holiness, shall we be in sin? Of course not; that is impossible! If we live in the flesh, we will sin, and if we sow to the flesh, we reap corruption (death), but if we keep our bodies under, as did Paul, being crucified with Christ, we will not sin, just as the apostle John states by the Holy Spirit. There is no sin in Christ, and if you are not in Him, then you are not saved. Jesus said you would have to endure to the end to be saved. What is the end? The end of the man of sin and the Lord ruling on the throne of our hearts.

The Spirit of God deals a death blow to the man of sin within, who is there in each and every person as described in 2 Thessalonians (showing himself that he is God), and must be destroyed by the coming of the Lord and the Spirit of His mouth. Therefore, the language used by James to describe every Christian is an entirely accurate description of the internal state and struggle against sin as each is on his or her journey to salvation. There is a crucial battle to win against the flesh and unbelief, an enemy to be put away, and only by the power of Jesus Christ can this be accomplished. That is why He gives us His Spirit, to overcome and to abide in Him forever.

This is salvation!

The ultimate question that determines everything is, “Who has the victory?” Will it be the flesh or the Lord? Who or which rules?

You have not even come to the place of the struggle between spirit and flesh because you have not received the Spirit of Christ. You operate in the realm of conscience, which you have polluted by false doctrine that causes you to believe you are saved when you are not.

Thinking yourself justified in this false salvation, you continue in sin as though that is acceptable to God. You teach others that sinning is the natural state of a Christian, when it is only the natural state of the natural man. Jesus Christ’s natural state is not sin. That is the meaning of the verses we have quoted you from 1 John, which you cannot explain.

James is writing about the “much tribulation” and “scourging” that every believer must go through, with God’s glorious end goal in mind:

“Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, double-minded ones. Be afflicted, and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness. Be humbled before the Lord, and He will lift you up” (James 4:7-10 MKJV).

Yes, every Christian will sin, but every Christian that endures to the end will be saved, and none will accuse him or her of sin, even past ones.

Job’s friends who condemned him were walking in their own righteousness, and they were, therefore, found guilty before God in their criticism of Job, whom God had called “perfect.” The fourth man, Elihu, spoke on behalf of God’s righteousness and condemned Job’s righteousness. He did not condemn Job, but said, “I desire to justify you” (Job 33:32).

God came in the flesh by a man, Elihu, and told Job the truth. We also see that the Lord Himself spoke, after severely chastising the one He called “perfect and upright,” seeing his fault and correcting it. So who are those presumptuous and uncircumcised in heart professors of God that will speak of the saints of God as sinners, when God sees them as His elect and perfect?

“Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God Who justifies. Who is he condemning? It is Christ Who has died, but rather also Who is raised, Who is also at the right hand of God, Who also intercedes for us” (Romans 8:33-34 MKJV).

Your gospel and brand of salvation by grace is somewhat different, though deceptively similar. It goes this way:

GIVE A MAN A FISH THAT HE MAY EAT:

A man’s son committed an offense, incurring a debt of a million dollars, which was impossible for the son to pay. The father requires nothing of his son except that the son acknowledge him as his loving father; the father simply pays the debt and says, “Don’t worry about it; I took care of it because you accept me as your father and because I love you; you don’t owe me or anyone else a thing. If anything like this happens again, I don’t care whether it is deliberate or happens many times, just let me know, and I’ll take care of it; you’re covered for life. You need only tell them that I am your father and that I’ve taken care of it. After all, you have no money; I have it all, so why should you pay when you can’t? I understand.”

On the other hand, ENABLE A MAN TO FISH AND FEED HIMSELF:

The Father says, “Repent (yes, change your mind) and go and sin no more, lest something worse befall you. Cleanse your hands, sinner; purify your heart, be afflicted, mourn, flee fornication, keep yourself from idols, yield your members to righteousness, sow to the Spirit, have nothing to do with fornicators who are called brothers, do right, love your neighbor, be perfect even as your Heavenly Father is perfect. I have given you My Spirit and power to be cleansed of all unrighteousness. I gave My life for you that you would have it and overcome, even as I overcame.

“If I tell you not to sin, it stands to reason this is expected of you, and I would not require it of you if it were not necessary or possible to do. I am not unjust. After all, that is what My true grace is. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I have given you the right, opportunity, duty, and power to do so. That is true grace.

You can’t, but I can, not only for you, as many are deceived into thinking and are thus destroyed, but by, in, and with you.”

The gainsayer says, “I can’t help but sin; we all sin. I don’t know how to fish. My Father always gave me fish and said He always would (or so I thought). He never taught me to be like Him and to fish and be a provider as He is. We’re not made like our Father, and never will be in this life. That’s for another time and world. While on this earth, we will sin, though He told us not to.”

Therein is an illustration of your gospel and definition of salvation, as compared to the true. While you say all Christians are doomed to sin in this life, we say true Christians must not sin, as per all the warnings of Scripture you yourself sent us, and when they enter into victory, they do not sin. That is the will of God in Christ Jesus.

You know what the difference is between us? You focus on the old man who sins and cannot help but sin, which old man every true believer has. But our focus is on the new man, the one born of God, who cannot sin, and we walk in him by the grace and power of God, because our old man has been crucified, and herein are Paul’s words fulfilled:

“I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf” (Galatians 2:20 MKJV).

The reason for the difference in focus is because you are still alive, Harold, focusing on yourself in the Name of the Lord. You have the theory, but not the reality. You have never been born again, and you have never known to have or be the new man in Christ; you have only heard of him by the hearing of the ear – you have never “seen” him.

Yes, your lifestyle took on a dramatic change for the better (taking your word for it), at least short term, but now you are twice the child of hell your spiritual progenitor was, opposing you know not what. Perhaps it would have been better for you to have remained where you were, in dope and rock, than to come part way and end here, a direct enemy of God, lukewarm in advancing down the path of truth and life.

You think that we, the saints of God, are as you, in the filthiness of your flesh from which you can never be washed or purged by your false doctrines and false Christ. You contemn the blood of Christ and all His work, bringing it down to your base level of existence and keeping it there for yourself and for those who hear you.

While Christ came down to our level, He had no intention of succoring us there, but to raise us up to His level. You have denied that intention, and your fruits tell it.

In a mundane but pertinent matter, revelatory of your spirit and attitude, can you not show the simple courtesy of replying to both of us as we write to you and include each other in our e-mails? Do you not have a “Reply All” button on your e-mail program? Are you ignorant of how to operate it and too lazy to find out or manually add a single address? Your rudeness and insensitivity is absolutely typical of a brutish and beastly nature.

You are also wrong on the matter of our place in God’s judgment. You write:

All Judgment has been given to the Son, Jesus and I plead my case before Him.

We are in Christ, seated with Him on His throne, and we are judging you, as it is written:

“To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all His saints. Praise ye the LORD” (Psalms 149:9 KJV).

“Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom” (Daniel 7:22 KJV).

In one of your latest notes you ask what assurance we have for eternal life. Our assurance comes from God, Whose Spirit bears witness with our spirit. As it is written:

“The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God” (Romans 8:16 MKJV).

Eternal Life Himself dwells within us; we know Him and His Word confirms what we know. But you don’t have His witness. All you have is the letter, which you apply to yourself in all your carnality and call it a witness. In your application of the letter, you do not have salvation, life from the dead, but the very opposite, “for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive” (2 Corinthians 3:6 MKJV).

Here is the difference: God bears witness to us that we are saved and His Record agrees with His witness. You, on the other hand, have taken His Record and unlawfully applied it to yourself. You have received and opened somebody else’s mail and presume the words apply to you. But we have red the envelope; we see the postmark, and the letter was not sent to you. You are now busted as a scofflaw.

You ask what prophet Victor is. Read Who Is That Prophet? Part 2 – Identifying the True.

And you have not answered our question: What are you doing about your sins? You continue in them and justify yourself in them. What are they that you should find them better than the Lord, Who laid His life down for you? Shame! So you will die in them and condemn your house, except the Lord should spare any.

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk

Click HERE to go to our supplementary conversation with Harold Green regarding Romans 7.

Click HERE to go to our supplementary conversation with Harold Green regarding sin.

 

How One Is Saved

This is for the person who wants to know what he or she must do to have the salvation of God. It doesn’t matter whether you are an atheist or one with many years of experience in religion. God is no respecter of persons, and He is not a disrespecter of any who come before Him in sincerity and say, “I don’t know but want to. Show me the way.” That is what He has given us for you in this paper.

 

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